Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Goldstein » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:12 pm UTC

Another thing to take issue with here; I can understand the mechanical reasons behind requiring a healing surge for a healing potion, but how does this play out in the game world? The last time I played, my friend's rogue was horribly messed up and out of surges, but carried two healing potions, so he wanted to drink one. How do you explain what happens next without it being obvious to the characters that healing surges are a thing in their world? The rogue has no in-character reason to avoid drinking one, but it's a bad move to make.

I think in future I'll let potions heal half if the character has no surges, but it could still put the player's interests at odds with the character's in a metagamey way.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby bigglesworth » Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:53 pm UTC

Eh, that's fairly easy. The healing potion doesn't heal, it just interacts with the body's natural energies to allow bruising and cuts to knit together. Just like antibiotics don't repair necrotic flesh, but they do allow the body to heal (by removing the infection).
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Yakk » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:11 pm UTC

Have a healing potion drunk when the player is out of healing surges grant 1/2 the amount it would heal as temporary HP.

In effect, the healing potion isn't working very well anymore, and you notice it isn't working, and that you need rest before drinking more.

At the same time, you cannot glug down gallons of healing potion to heal any wound.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Chen » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:25 pm UTC

So we're starting Dark Sun 3.5 soon (as I alluded to in a previous post). I'm thinking of playing Thri-kreen. I gotta wonder can you take the 2 weapon fighting feats as a multi-armed creature? Or do you have to take multi-weapon fighting? I'm just wondering what the interaction between a ranger and 4 armed thri-kreen is.

Also if you have 4 arms can you wield 2 double weapons? Is only one considered the primary and all the rest "off hand"?

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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Yakk » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:35 pm UTC

d20 srd:
Multiweapon Fighting [General]
Prerequisites

Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit

Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by 2 with the primary hand and reduced by 6 with off hands.
Normal

A creature without this feat takes a -6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a -10 penalty on attacks made with its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting.
Special

This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.

The "Special" implies that it is a replacement for creatures with more than 2 arms -- which indicates that probably the proper thing to do is to make the ranger class grant Multiweapon fighting.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby EmptySet » Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:56 pm UTC

Yeah. Also, as ludicrous as it is, I'm fairly sure you can wield two double weapons provided you have a sufficient supply of hands.

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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Decker » Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:57 am UTC

EmptySet wrote:... provided you have a sufficient supply of hands.

For some reason, this made me giggle.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Chen » Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:11 pm UTC

EmptySet wrote:Yeah. Also, as ludicrous as it is, I'm fairly sure you can wield two double weapons provided you have a sufficient supply of hands.


It does seem a little logistically difficult though for something with 4 arms instead of holding each dual weapon like a normal 2 armed person would (ie right and left arms each holding one end) you'd probably have something like upper-right+lower-right on one weapon and then the same on the left side. I suppose something with 6 arms (like a Girrallon) would make it kinda odd though.

I think in terms of balanced play you'd end up having to say that one of the double-weapon ends was your primary attack (the one that gets iterative attacks) and the rest are the "off-hand" ones. Still once you get improved multiweapon fighting thats a pretty ridiculous number of attacks. With full bab at level 9 it would be 2 main hand attacks, 6 off-hand attacks (2 with each weapon, though you start getting some hefty penalties on these) and then a secondary attack bite for a total of 9 attacks without too much cheese (aside the actual thri-kreen itself).

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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby EmptySet » Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:55 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
EmptySet wrote:Yeah. Also, as ludicrous as it is, I'm fairly sure you can wield two double weapons provided you have a sufficient supply of hands.


It does seem a little logistically difficult though for something with 4 arms instead of holding each dual weapon like a normal 2 armed person would (ie right and left arms each holding one end) you'd probably have something like upper-right+lower-right on one weapon and then the same on the left side. I suppose something with 6 arms (like a Girrallon) would make it kinda odd though.


Hence why I said it was ludicrous, but I don't think the rules as written take that into account - it pretty much works the same way as any other two-handed weapon unless your DM houserules it. And if you think about it, wielding two halberds or two scythes is just as bizarre, since they're held the same way as most double weapons. Even one-handed weapons are problematic since your own elbow would block swings from some angles, which is presumably why you need special training and still suffer an attack penalty. Double-handed swords are probably the easiest option since you could just hold the hilt with both right hands or both left hands and use it like a one-handed sword.

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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby The Utilitarian » Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:16 am UTC

The rules for wielding 2 Double Weapons with a 4 handed creature are lain out specifically in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, for the instances of Thri-kreen wielding two Gythkas. Effectively you take penalities as if your offhand weapons were One Handed, rather than Light weapons.

You could, however, wield a single double weapon and a pair of light weapons and still come away with no extra penalties for non-light weapons in the offhand.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Chen » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:42 pm UTC

The Utilitarian wrote:The rules for wielding 2 Double Weapons with a 4 handed creature are lain out specifically in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, for the instances of Thri-kreen wielding two Gythkas. Effectively you take penalities as if your offhand weapons were One Handed, rather than Light weapons.

You could, however, wield a single double weapon and a pair of light weapons and still come away with no extra penalties for non-light weapons in the offhand.


Hmm thats somewhat annoying. I guess it would be better to just go with 4 light weapons then. A double weapon + light weapons means you need extra feats to be as good with them.

edit: actually it might just be better to go rapid strike/improved rapid strike route and use the natural weapons. Means I only need an amulet of natural attacks instead of enchanting 4 weapons :P

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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Ixtellor » Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:58 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Hmm thats somewhat annoying. I guess it would be better to just go with 4 light weapons then. A double weapon + light weapons means you need extra feats to be as good with them.


My old group used to call characters like these "Blenders".

About half my group was addicted to it. Characters who could do obscene amounts of weapon damage in a single round.

Throw in haste spells, magic items (bracers of blinding strike), and all that min/max feats and specilizations and the numbers can get ridiculous.
Add in girdles of giant str, and other +hit/+dam items and it gets beyond monty hall.

Blender says "Ok I hit him 7 times for 156 points of damage"
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:46 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:
Chen wrote:Hmm thats somewhat annoying. I guess it would be better to just go with 4 light weapons then. A double weapon + light weapons means you need extra feats to be as good with them.


My old group used to call characters like these "Blenders".

About half my group was addicted to it. Characters who could do obscene amounts of weapon damage in a single round.

Throw in haste spells, magic items (bracers of blinding strike), and all that min/max feats and specializations and the numbers can get ridiculous.
Add in girdles of giant str, and other +hit/+dam items and it gets beyond monty hall.

Blender says "Ok I hit him 7 times for 156 points of damage"
Assuming the hits do more or less equal damage, that's 22.blahblahblah points of damage per hit.

So if the creature in question has DR15/whatever, and the Blender isn't using whatever, that's.. okay, that's still 50 points of damage, which is nothing to sneeze at, sure.. but a lot less than the 156.

Not that DR is always applicable. "What's that, you're using your Axiomatic Good Cold Iron +3 and Anarchic Evil Silver +3 weapons?..... You bastard."
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Chen » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:10 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Assuming the hits do more or less equal damage, that's 22.blahblahblah points of damage per hit.

So if the creature in question has DR15/whatever, and the Blender isn't using whatever, that's.. okay, that's still 50 points of damage, which is nothing to sneeze at, sure.. but a lot less than the 156.

Not that DR is always applicable. "What's that, you're using your Axiomatic Good Cold Iron +3 and Anarchic Evil Silver +3 weapons?..... You bastard."


Most things won't have multiple DRs anyways so you'll almost always have a weapon and/or spell to penetrate it with. Carry some silversheen with you and you really just need someone to cast Bless weapon (or whatever the thing that makes it good) and you're pretty much set. You just need to make sure your primary weapon is cold iron since thats the only one thats not easy to penetrate using spells or consumable items that really comes up at all. I did like 3.0 better in this regard where you needed certain LEVELS of magic items to penetrate certain DR. Made things a bit more interesting.

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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Ixtellor » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:14 pm UTC

I assume DR means damage resistance, and I don't recall any damage resistance in 2nd edition.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:19 pm UTC

There really weren't. The closest thing was the Werecreature immunity to nonmagic nonsilver weapons, and some creatures having a resistance or extra vulnerability to certain materials, but those were few and far between.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Ixtellor » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:28 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:There really weren't. The closest thing was the Werecreature immunity to nonmagic nonsilver weapons, and some creatures having a resistance or extra vulnerability to certain materials, but those were few and far between.


Well yea that was a given. Zombies and Skeletons come to mind as a semi frequent DM type ability.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Klapaucius » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:29 pm UTC

I've been discussing this with some other players, but as I don't have the details worked out yet, I haven't taken it to the DM. The group generally thinks it's varying degrees of kickass but doesn't exactly make sense.

Would it be a little too ludicrous to homebrew a variant of the Dervish prestige class for a dwarf who dual-wields mauls?
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Xanthir » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:56 am UTC

...no?

What would be the problem? It's pretty clear that the scimitar restriction or whatever (been a while since I've look at the Dervish) is just a flavor restriction. Mauls would be fine.

(I'm reminded of an argument on another D&D board about whether to restrict an "Iajutsu" feat tree to only swords or not. I argued that it was ridiculous to do so, as it was clearly purely a flavor restriction, and it would be pretty cool to have dwarves strike someone in the same stroke as they pull their hammers off their back.)
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Gelsamel » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:58 am UTC

I asked about this before.

Having an Iaijutsu type feat does have some balancing issues. For instance, being able to attack while keeping free hands...
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Chen » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:17 pm UTC

Klapaucius wrote:I've been discussing this with some other players, but as I don't have the details worked out yet, I haven't taken it to the DM. The group generally thinks it's varying degrees of kickass but doesn't exactly make sense.

Would it be a little too ludicrous to homebrew a variant of the Dervish prestige class for a dwarf who dual-wields mauls?


Isn't a maul a 2 handed weapon anyways? I can't see a good way to dual wield them unless you were dual wielding small ones (I'm pretty sure a medium character can wield a small 2 handed weapon in 1 hand). Course there's probably already a weapon thats a medium 1 handed equivalent to a maul (like a warhammer of some sort). Flavor wise it doesn't really fit either. Mauls or other bludgeoning weapons probably wouldn't be nearly as effective in the spinning/dance type thing of a dervish. We've already houseruled you don't need scimitars, but you do still need slashing weapons.

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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Decker » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:36 pm UTC

I don't know about 4.0, but in 3.5 there IS a feat you can take that will let you use a 2-handed weapon with one hand at a -2 penalty to your attack rolls.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Yakk » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:09 pm UTC

Monkey Grip doesn't work that way.

Given that he's talking about a PrC for a dwarf, it is probably 3e or 3.5e. :)

In 4e, I'd just make a Craighammer Dwarf Ranger.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Decker » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:10 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:Monkey Grip doesn't work that way.

Are you going to correct me, or is this just going to stop at "No, you're wrong."
Cause, you know, I don't mind being wrong. I would just like to know why.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Chen » Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:17 pm UTC

Decker wrote:
Yakk wrote:Monkey Grip doesn't work that way.

Are you going to correct me, or is this just going to stop at "No, you're wrong."
Cause, you know, I don't mind being wrong. I would just like to know why.


Monkey grip allows you to use a weapon one size category larger than you are at -2. That is all. The number of hands needed to wield it does not change. You could wield a large greatsword (still with 2 hands) or a large longsword (with 1 hand). Now granted a large longsword is just a greatsword, so its almost the same, but to wield a 2 handed maul you'd need to find a weapon that was one handed and when scaled up to large had the same stats as a maul and THEN get Monkey grip and use it on that new weapon (something like a large warhammer but I'm pretty sure the stats still arn't right).

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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Yakk » Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:35 pm UTC

Sorry, I was being glib.

Everyone misreads how monkey grip works. I don't even remember how it works, I just recognised what you are typing as being a probably reference to the feat.

If you google the phrase, you'll get threads talking about how Monkey Grip works. I'd be just copy/pasting from them, because I'm pretty sure that if I tried to type out how monkey grip works, I'd get it wrong!
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Decker » Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:44 pm UTC

Okay, I see now. I was taking my information from Neverwinter Nights 2. It would make sense that they would change it for the game, since there are no large or small weapons.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Chen » Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:20 pm UTC

Monkey grip never really seemed all that useful. A greatsword goes from 2d6 to 3d6 if you increase its size category. So you're gaining 3.5 damage for a -2 to hit. Power attack with a 2hander gives you +4 damage at -2 hit and you choose when to use it or not. The only real use I can see is if you're always powerattacking for everything and you still want more damage.

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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:02 pm UTC

Re: Scimitars, Mauls, and the Dervish.

Scimitars are a One-Handed (not Light) crap damage weapon (slashing) with an average crit that has a huge threatening range.

Mauls apparently aren't part of the d20srd. So I can't make a comparison. Warhammers, a One Handed normal damage weapon (bludgeoning) with a high crit that only fires on a 20... yeah, I don't see an issue there, as they're pretty comparable weapons. You're going to crit a lot more often with the scimitars, but the warhammers do a higher die damage and have a 1in20 crit (as opposed to the scimitar's 1in6.666... crit) you will likely end up doing less damage in the long run with the warhammers.

Mauls... if those are two handed.. I wouldn't say so. Not unless you're using small Mauls or something, which at that point.. what's the point?
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Meteorswarm » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:50 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Re: Scimitars, Mauls, and the Dervish.

Scimitars are a One-Handed (not Light) crap damage weapon (slashing) with an average crit that has a huge threatening range.

Mauls apparently aren't part of the d20srd. So I can't make a comparison. Warhammers, a One Handed normal damage weapon (bludgeoning) with a high crit that only fires on a 20... yeah, I don't see an issue there, as they're pretty comparable weapons. You're going to crit a lot more often with the scimitars, but the warhammers do a higher die damage and have a 1in20 crit (as opposed to the scimitar's 1in6.666... crit) you will likely end up doing less damage in the long run with the warhammers.

Mauls... if those are two handed.. I wouldn't say so. Not unless you're using small Mauls or something, which at that point.. what's the point?


Unless I'm doing the math wrong, the warhammer does more damage in the long term:[math]\text{Scimitar Damage} = \frac{17}{20} \cdot 3.5 + \frac{3}{20} \cdot 7 = 4.025[/math][math]\text{Warhammer Damage} = \frac{19}{20} \cdot 4.5 + \frac{1}{20} \cdot 13.5 = 4.95[/math]
So a warhammer does nearly a point more damage, on average.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Chen » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:03 pm UTC

Need to take damage modifiers into account:

Scimitar: 17/20*(3.5+mod)+ 3/20*2*(3.5+mod) = 4.025 + 23/20*mod
Warhammer: 19/20*(4.5+mod) + 1/20*3*(4.5+mod) = 4.95 + 22/20*mod

Means at a modifier of 18.5 the scimitar will deal more damage on average. At lower levels you're likely not going to see this kind of bonus so in this case yes a warhammer is likely better.

However, once we take improved Critical it becomes:

Scimitar: 14/20*(3.5+mod)+ 6/20*2*(3.5+mod) = 4.55 + 26/20*mod
Warhammer: 18/20*(4.5+mod) + 2/20*3*(4.5+mod) = 5.4 + 24/20*mod

Now the modifier drops to 8.5 before a scimitar is better. By the time you can get improved crit your modifier to damage should probably be around 8 if not higher (Bull's strength, 16 Str, enlarge person, +2 magic weapon, weapon spec comes out at +10 already)

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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:54 pm UTC

... the real point being that they're pretty comparable weapons. As opposed to the Greatclub (Boo!) and Greataxe (Srsly, for 15 gold more you do a better die AND have a x3 crit instead of a x2? WTF were they thinking?).

If there was some PrC based around using a Greatclub and making it awesome, I wouldn't say that swapping that out with a Greataxe or Greatsword would be fine. Because it wouldn't. Warhammer for Scimitar? I don't see a problem.

Maul for Scimitar? It depends on what the maul does. If it's a one-handed melee weapon that does 1d10 Bludgeoning and has a x3 crit... Hells no.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Yakk » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:55 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:... the real point being that they're pretty comparable weapons. As opposed to the Greatclub (Boo!) and Greataxe (Srsly, for 15 gold more you do a better die AND have a x3 crit instead of a x2? WTF were they thinking?)

Club a primitive big stick, Axe sharp?

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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:00 pm UTC

Sure. Swap the crits (Or just give the greatclub a 3x crit) and maybe you've got an argument for it being balanced, as it'd basically a heavy flail with the crit range dropped but the damage expanded. As is... it's bringing a musket to a revolver fight.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby The Utilitarian » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:14 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Sure. Swap the crits (Or just give the greatclub a 3x crit) and maybe you've got an argument for it being balanced, as it'd basically a heavy flail with the crit range dropped but the damage expanded. As is... it's bringing a musket to a revolver fight.

I've always felt that the Greatclub should have just been a Simple weapon all along. Makes the most sense, Club is a simple weapon, but Bigger Club is a Martial weapon? The Maul is (if I remember) essentially just a Greatsword with the crit and threat range twerked a little.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:18 am UTC

Yeah, if the Greatclub was a simple weapon with the same stats, it'd also be acceptable.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Vaniver » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:58 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Yeah, if the Greatclub was a simple weapon with the same stats, it'd also be acceptable.
Ug have go to fighter school to learn swing big club. No give Ug skill away for free!
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:01 am UTC

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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby d0nk3y_k0n9 » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:08 am UTC

I'd just like to point out that in the damage math above, counting (using the scimitar, for example) 3/20 as a crit and 17/20 as a normal hit is incorrect. You should be counting 3/20 as crit and 16/20 as a hit. The other 1/20 you roll a 1 and automatically miss.

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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Meteorswarm » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:00 am UTC

d0nk3y_k0n9 wrote:I'd just like to point out that in the damage math above, counting (using the scimitar, for example) 3/20 as a crit and 17/20 as a normal hit is incorrect. You should be counting 3/20 as crit and 16/20 as a hit. The other 1/20 you roll a 1 and automatically miss.


Not everybody plays that way, and it's an approximate measure, assuming you hit every time regardless.

Hell, I usually play with a roll of a 1 being "Dm gets to have some fun," usually being mildly harmful, but more entertaining, and sometimes helpful if the party is in dire straits (which is often the case with our dm...)

In this vein, how do your groups deal with the growing lethality as you go up in level? It seems like in most of the games I play, combats get short and really deadly around level 8 and only get worse, with the only things being able to harm you at all can also take you out in a round or two.
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