Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Berengal » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:46 am UTC

A couple of weeks ago I was bored and for some reason happened to watch an sc2 game. It struck me how close it was to "real" sport, except I was actually enjoying watching it. Somewhat curious I decided to watch some more games, and a few hours later I was hooked.

I used to play a lot of RTS games, especially warcraft 2 way back in the day. To me, RTSes were the thinking man's game (never mind that I was around 8-9 years old at the time) and a friend and me used to play them all the time. One problem I had however was that I sucked at them, especially the warcraft/starcraft type of RTS (I do better at CoH and DoW). Also, I had very few full games and persisted mostly on demos back then. For these reasons I switched to other types of games and stopped playing RTSes almost entirely. I think the last RTS I took seriously was the starcraft demo; other RTSes I would just cheat my way through.

This changed last week however. After a week of constantly watching sc2 streams and vods I decided to finally buy the game and try it myself. After all, I'm an adult now. I have money and the game isn't that expensive compared to things like food and rent. So I bought it and started the campaign. A few days later I had, much to my surprise, beaten it on normal (I may have been terrified of RTSes but I am a gamer, and real gamers never start on easy, even if they're ex-hardcore like me). Alright, time to go online. I just had to pick a race (protoss, because they have shields (very important to an 8 year old starwars fan who read lots about sc1 on the internet while he was playing the terran-only demo)) and benchmark against the AI first (managed to beat hard, but still struggling with the very hard AI).

Now, I didn't just watch streams and VODs, but I also did a lot of reading about strategies and how to be good, and I also watched a lot of day[9]. Turns out, all you need to do to win at the lower levels is to just build probes constantly. Having some kind of simple strategy also isn't too bad as long as it doesn't get in the way of probes, so I decided to go stalkers (them dudes can shoot both ground and flying stuff, so attack-move fuck yeah) and eventually blink (because micro fuck yeah) whenever I figured out which building made that. Armed with a plan I entered the practice league and immediately squared off against another protoss. Alright, build probes. After about 10 minutes of simply spamming 4-q-4-z-4-5-e-4-5-4-q-ohshitneedmorepylons-4-q-5-e, suddenly Oh me yarm zealots are attacking my rocks! Good thing I have stalkers that can shoot them. Alright, they've been chased off, but fuck, phoenixes in my mineral line! It's still okay, I've got blink stalkers and quickly take care of them. Now I've got observers in his base, so I go look at it and notice that he doesn't have any more stuff than me. I also notice that after only 30 seconds of utter panic I have a bajillion moneys and a bunch of warpgates willing to give me more stalkers I decide to go kill him. So in the best two-pronged blink-stalker attack ever executed I leap-frog to his base, drawing his army out the front with one group of stalkers while blinking in the back with the other group. After only a few seconds of fighting I get my first gg.

The adrenalin rush you get after a game simply enhances any emotion you have. That confidence boost and wellness you get when you've won is incredibly potent. All it took was that one game to get me hooked on playing the game and getting better at it.

This was only a couple of days ago, and since then I've played 9 games and won 7 of them. About half the games I've played were against utter noobs (I may be a noob at sc2, and I may be a noob at RTSes, but at least I'm not an utter noob. I know some of the theory and I'm not entirely new to the genre). This made me somewhat overconfident, and I almost lost two of the games because of that. In one game I had him contained and had started expanding across all the expos outside of the natural fortress they give you in the practice league maps. I remember thinking I should just go mass carrier and maul his ass, but fortunately I've promised myself to stick to my plan. I continued to mass stalkers (and colossi after a while), and this saved me when he finally sallied out, and would've crushed me had I not had the ability to sneak into his base through the back entrance while his army was out and kill it off while he was killing my main. I had the outside expos and managed to get a bunch of warp gates and warp in enough units to kill his army after we had killed eachother's mains, but it was really close for a while.

Winning is fun, but it's the losses I've learned the most from. I've only experienced two so far, but they've both taught me much. The first one I lost because I simply wasn't producing units. When the other guy came knocking we had basically exactly the same stuff (he was also protoss), except he just had more of it. The other loss was a bit more subtle I feel. It was my first vZerg battle, and I felt like I was doing just fine for a long while. I scouted his army, decided it was smaller than mine (it was), and attacked. He completely decimated my entire army. I had better economy than him and a larger army. After my first army was lost I was immediately able to warp in more stalkers through 10 warp gates, and continue to do so once the cooldown ran out for several minutes still. Now, I was basically just making units and throwing them at him, and he killed them off with relative ease. I could've microed them better, but his army composition was simply better I felt; zerglings, roaches, infestors and ultras against stalkers and colossi. Infestors + colossi = FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU.

I decided I had to scout earlier, and since the practice league maps all have rocks blocking off the bases this meant getting a robo as quick as possible and get my observers out even quicker. I would still stick to my stalker-colossi strategy, except my opponent had a clear counter to that, in which case I'd be going for either some immortals or void rays (possibly high templars if he went heavy infestor, although I suck at microing because I concentrate so much on not interrupting my macro-cycle). Also, if the opportunity presented itself, I'd attack earlier as well. When watching the replay of the last loss, I saw that I could've attacked a few minutes earlier with much greater success. This seemed to be a trend in my other games as well; being overly cautious, and with a decent economy (better than everyone else I've played up to now) and a bunch of warp gates, I could handle a possible loss from a badly microed early push if I was wrong.

So off I go practice not forgetting about buildings I've built. Gateway done? Build core right away. Assimilator done? Probes, mine gas right away. A few hours later and I'm back online, and lo and behold it's my old enemy. My immediate urge was to go zealot-immortal-high templar to counter his zergling-roach-infestor, but I decided against it, instead opting to drop the blink in favor of some more units. I was leaning even less towards micro at this point, focusing on a decent economy but mostly on getting stuff quicker. It was the most tense battle I've been in so far.

First battle where I lost
Second battle
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:57 am UTC

Hi, welcome. It sounds like you did a full on swan dive into multiplayer SC2, so there's really not much to add. I will say though, that if you're at the point where you're refining and trying to improve, you should bow out of the practice league. Five reasons: 1) The game speed is 1/3rd slower than normal, 2) the novice maps make for abnormal games, 3) queue times will probably be better, 4) you'll generally be faced against similarly skilled players, and 5) you can watch yourself climb the ladder, if that interests you.

Season 3 of the ladder supposedly starts sometime tuesday, so if you did want to jump into ladder that would be a good time.
Last edited by psion on Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:46 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:41 am UTC

Be careful with thinking "I could have attacked earlier against that zerg and won" in general.

Zergs, even more than any other race, build the potential to build units rather than units. They can have 19 larva per hatchery ready to go (with queens injecting them).

And it doesn't take (that) long to pop out units from a larva.

So a zerg can go along, building buildings, keeping an eye on what you are doing with scouts, expanding, upgrading -- all along building the ability to build units and significantly less in the way of units than you. Then when you start moving, the zerg could pump out an army that is built before you reach his main, stop your attack, and still outproduce your replacement army (and, unlike your replacement army, if the zerg forgets to build during the fight, larva keep on coming out, and queens keep on gaining energy*).

* which isn't all that useful, because queens have enough energy to saturate a base, so if they forget to inject at the first moment they do fall behind, but still...
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Goldstein » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:27 pm UTC

After some games over the weekend, I've been amazed by how much of a difference the upgrades make. My opponent approached the front of my base with about 12 marines and a medivac. I only had 12 marines myself, but - for whatever bad reason that I can't justify right now - decided I'd snipe the medivac before retreating into my base. So two very similarly-sized armies faced off and shot at each other, and I'd lost a marine or three before their medivac went down. Not feeling that it had gone too badly, I had my guys stay and fight and they just mopped up, and I still had about 6 marines left. It was only through searching for an explanation that I remembered I'd got +1 attack (and maybe +1 armour) upgrades. I don't think I'll ever forego upgrades again.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:00 pm UTC

Goldstein wrote:After some games over the weekend, I've been amazed by how much of a difference the upgrades make. My opponent approached the front of my base with about 12 marines and a medivac. I only had 12 marines myself, but - for whatever bad reason that I can't justify right now - decided I'd snipe the medivac before retreating into my base. So two very similarly-sized armies faced off and shot at each other, and I'd lost a marine or three before their medivac went down. Not feeling that it had gone too badly, I had my guys stay and fight and they just mopped up, and I still had about 6 marines left. It was only through searching for an explanation that I remembered I'd got +1 attack (and maybe +1 armour) upgrades. I don't think I'll ever forego upgrades again.


Zealot/roach vs ling: 3 hits.
Upgraded: 2 hits.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:35 pm UTC

45/5 = 9 hits * .8608 = 7.74 seconds, *.5739 = 5.17 seconds
45/6 = 8 hits * .8608 = 6.89 seconds, *.5739 = 4.59 seconds
45/7 = 7 hits * .8608 = 6.03 seconds, *.5739 = 4.02 seconds

Stim-level HP:
35/5 = 7 hits * .8608 = 6.03 seconds, *.5739 = 4.02 seconds
35/6 = 6 hits * .8608 = 5.17 seconds, *.5739 = 3.44 seconds
35/7 = 5 hits * .8608 = 4.30 seconds, *.5739 = 2.87 seconds

Lets assume no stim.

+1 armor marines require 9 hits to drop, +1 weapon marines kill in 7 hits.

This is easily worth a 13.4% boost in numbers (sqrt of the kill ratio) -- a bit more, because small numbers of marines find it easier to actually engage.

A heal-less stim would give another significant boost.

If you added in some even mini micro (concentrate fire), it would become a slaughter (and as you where sniping a 'vac, odds are you where smart enough to concentrate fire).

Note that this has little to do with the "zealot vs zergling sweet spot" effect, where you go from 2 rounds to 3 rounds of attacks if protoss is ahead on weapon upgrades to zergling armor. It is just a nice, linear boost.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:50 pm UTC


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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Swivelguy » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:56 pm UTC

My game-of-the-week (a platinum TvT on typhon peaks):

CosmicOsmo_v_ratatat.7z
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:56 pm UTC

... which is a wonderful video describing why stutter-step micro is broken. :)
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Goldstein » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:04 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:as you where sniping a 'vac, odds are you where smart enough to concentrate fire

You'd think so, but I'm deathly afraid that the marine I choose to concentrate fire on will go down just before I click and my army will start walking mindlessly toward theirs. I've been wondering for a while if I should have health bars always-on. Should I? The upside is that I'll actually have enough information to make good micro decisions and the downside is that it might be a bit annoying. Should I always be playing with health-bars visible, just as I should always be playing with the game clock on?

... I can't even think of a single reason that anyone will say 'no'.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Swivelguy » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:07 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:... which is a wonderful video describing why stutter-step micro is broken. :)


Yeah, having 10,000 APM is totally overpowered, blizzard please nerf robots...
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby mister k » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:18 pm UTC

Goldstein wrote:
Yakk wrote:as you where sniping a 'vac, odds are you where smart enough to concentrate fire

You'd think so, but I'm deathly afraid that the marine I choose to concentrate fire on will go down just before I click and my army will start walking mindlessly toward theirs. I've been wondering for a while if I should have health bars always-on. Should I? The upside is that I'll actually have enough information to make good micro decisions and the downside is that it might be a bit annoying. Should I always be playing with health-bars visible, just as I should always be playing with the game clock on?

... I can't even think of a single reason that anyone will say 'no'.


you really, really should. It makes it much easier to choose who to focus on, and who to pull from the firing line, just improves your micro, for basically no hindrance.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:43 pm UTC

Swivelguy wrote:
Yakk wrote:... which is a wonderful video describing why stutter-step micro is broken. :)

Yeah, having 10,000 APM is totally overpowered, blizzard please nerf robots...

Extreme cases merely illuminate the problem in this case.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Berengal » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:44 pm UTC

psion wrote:Hi, welcome. It sounds like you did a full on swan dive into multiplayer SC2, so there's really not much to add. I will say though, that if you're at the point where you're refining and trying to improve, you should bow out of the practice league.

Yes, the plan was only to stay there for a day or two anyway, but I decided I needed the experience. When playing RTSes (and particularly the *craft games) I get all antsy and nervous, trying to do everything at once, then kicking myself for forgetting most of it. In SP it's not too bad since I can always just restart or turn down the difficulty, but MP is quite different. I decided I had to learn how to calm down a bit first, but it didn't really help all that much. I'm currently in my placement matches.

Yakk wrote:Be careful with thinking "I could have attacked earlier against that zerg and won" in general.
I do take larva count and resources into consideration when watching the replays. Anyway, the conclusion wasn't to just attack earlier, but to become better at scouting.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby rigwarl » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:14 pm UTC



I'm a bit confused on the "Ursadak vs Automaton". Are those two different programs written by the same guy? The Ursadak one does seem much more efficient.

EDIT: nm, Ursadak appears to be a superior bot (for marines, anyway) made by another guy who is comparing it to the more well-known Automaton.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:03 pm UTC

Yeah, a lot of people get nervous, and curiously for different reasons. The funny thing is, though, that the player you're facing is likely to be just as nervous.
Yakk wrote:
Swivelguy wrote:
Yakk wrote:... which is a wonderful video describing why stutter-step micro is broken. :)

Yeah, having 10,000 APM is totally overpowered, blizzard please nerf robots...

Extreme cases merely illuminate the problem in this case.

I've been thinking that marines need a tenth of a second attack delay or something for a while. It'd be a negligible change to their intended balance, but would reduce the silliness of the stutter step business. Effectively give it a short wind-up time like the roach, stalker, hellion... pretty much every other unit in the game. I don't see why marines should have nearly unlimited potential.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby rigwarl » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:43 pm UTC

Blizzard should just remove the unnecessary micro burden and make it so marines autoshoot when they run, like phoenixes :mrgreen:

Looking at Ursadak's video, it does seem that marines have some (very short) delay on there attack though. I suppose it could just be the unit turn time but I guess that serves the same purpose.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:15 pm UTC

Goldstein wrote:You'd think so, but I'm deathly afraid that the marine I choose to concentrate fire on will go down just before I click and my army will start walking mindlessly toward theirs. I've been wondering for a while if I should have health bars always-on. Should I? The upside is that I'll actually have enough information to make good micro decisions and the downside is that it might be a bit annoying. Should I always be playing with health-bars visible, just as I should always be playing with the game clock on?

... I can't even think of a single reason that anyone will say 'no'.


Wait... what... what? You know you can a+click to attack units, right?

"Stutter Step" (real men call it "animation canceling" or "orbwalking") was far more broken in WC3/Dota, with the small number of units, and spells (stormbolt...) and orb spells (frost/fire/dark arrow) firing immediately. Heroes sometimes had ridiculously long "I just fired, wait a bit" animations, and this provided a huge advantage.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby rigwarl » Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:54 pm UTC

Random fact for the day! All 3 of those are different things.

Animation canceling *is* most often done with moving (essentially stutter step) but can be useful without; e.g., Lion in DotA: stunning someone and hexing another person, if you issue the hex command while in your stun animation it will land faster than if you shift queued the commands.

Orb-walking is unique to DotA and refers to manually "casting" your attack modifier, e.g., frost arrow, on your target because NPCs aggro from autoattacks but not spells; they won't aggro if you do so, but will aggro you if you autocast your frost arrow and right click them. Orb-walking does not have any benefit over a standard animation cancel/stutter step in real WC3 (although some heroes you will want to manually cast your modifier to save mana).

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:32 pm UTC

rigwarl wrote:Blizzard should just remove the unnecessary micro burden and make it so marines autoshoot when they run, like phoenixes :mrgreen:


Nah, I think the one unit in the Terran arsenal that needs this is the hellion. I see no reason why that little car can't have the flamethrower going while it's driving...

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Berengal » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:09 am UTC

So I'm playing my placement matches and won the first two. The third quit on me right away, and the fourth was an epic crazy battle where I first parked a warp prism in his base for five minutes, and then he killed me with ultras ten minutes later (both of us messed up badly). That guy was the first already placed however, and when I checked his standing he was a rank 28 gold. And I had the game won had I not messed up the end game, which I've never really gotten to before and thus was completely lost in the mass of units present (checking the replay, my APM dropped by one third the last ten minutes because I was just overwhelmed with stuff).

Edit: In my last match I matched up against a plat/diamond. I lost, but not too easily (we ended up trading bases, and he ended up killing all my probes), and now I'm placed in gold. Well, for a day anyway.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:14 am UTC

|Erasmus| wrote:
rigwarl wrote:Blizzard should just remove the unnecessary micro burden and make it so marines autoshoot when they run, like phoenixes :mrgreen:


Nah, I think the one unit in the Terran arsenal that needs this is the hellion. I see no reason why that little car can't have the flamethrower going while it's driving...


It'd counter Light units (especially poor Zealots) so ridiculously hard if it could fire while moving, assuming it was allowed to fire behind while moving. Hellions are a lot like Mutalisks in my book. Without good micro and control they tend to kinda suck, but with good micro they're borderline overpowered (I'd say Mutalisks are overpowered in the hands of someone with good micro... but why make mutas when Infestors do just as well with less APM required?), though hellions are much more of a niche unit than mutas.

Definintely not keen on stutterstep being so powerful, at least not for MM. Concussive Shells really needs some kind of change... maybe a victim hit by it can't be affected by it for another 3-5 seconds or something... because it makes stutterstep ridiculously easy to perform. Stutterstepping stimmed marines vs speedlings and speedlots without losing tons of DPS is actually very difficult. Stutterstepping vs speedlots (and small numbers of speedlings) while maintaining good DPS with concussive shells is pretty easy.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:47 am UTC

What're your thoughts on these two ZvP games? Cruncher vs Fou:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhRXvZhx ... ure=relmfu

and Game 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvThJH3E ... ideo_title

What could have Fou done better to avoid losing in both games?

Archons do a crazy 47 damage to biological units (literally every single zerg unit and structure), hit ground and air, and with zealots soaking the shots they can do enormous damage. I definintely think sending those overlords with his army was a massive mistake (look how far in the red he is after the first fight - almost 70 supply in the red!), but supposedly he did it to prevent the Phoenixes from nabbing units - you can see how well that worked (it didn't.) I definitely think banelings and infestors are what're needed against that zealot/archon build. Banelings and fungal will easily handle the zealots and you can neural parasite the archons. The only problem might be if the toss starts bringing a few normal templar along before morphing them, so they can zap infestors. Hydralisks have great DPS, but both zealots and archons can pretty easily thrash them. Then again, Hydralisks pretty much suck. Fou definitely made a huge, huge blunder by getting those overlords killed. Not only does that supply block him, he also has to spend resources and larva to rebuild them - lose 8 overlords and that's 800 minerals AND a full inject cycle of larva.

Game 2 seemed to be lost mostly because he didn't move that overlord further and scout the fourth gateway, but I also think that force field was really shown to be pretty overpowered as well. Any units being built from the hatchery in the main cannot assist the natural, and while he could've moved that handful of roaches down before the hit came, I don't think they would've saved the natural. You then combine this with warpgates (which completely negate the defender's advantage) and I really don't think it's fair. I mean, yeah, you can counter 4gate... but that's hard as hell to do unless you scout it well ahead of time and have had plenty of time to throw down spines and get some forces ready.

Even if he'd scouted that 4th gateway... so what? He goes "oh shit it's gonna be a 4gate" and pumps units... and Cruncher just chills and decides to keep that nexus at his natural. Positioning of the structures would make attacking that natural very difficult and suddenly Fou's just wasted a whole bunch of larva on fighting units he can't even really use effectively yet.

Really, though, the only thing that pissed me off about that game was the forcefields on the ramp. That's blatantly overpowered and doesn't even require any real skill.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:53 am UTC

|Erasmus| wrote:
rigwarl wrote:Blizzard should just remove the unnecessary micro burden and make it so marines autoshoot when they run, like phoenixes :mrgreen:


Nah, I think the one unit in the Terran arsenal that needs this is the hellion. I see no reason why that little car can't have the flamethrower going while it's driving...


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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:16 am UTC

Yeah, I think terrans are starting to realize hellions are actually pretty strong against other terrans that are making any normal number of marines. They're fast enough to dart inside a tank line with only mild losses (until they have like 10 tanks, but that's very late game) and even 3-4 hellions with blue flame can melt an entire platoon of marines, which leaves the tanks vulnerable to a push (or banshees.)

I've actually been trying out a mech-based opening against terrans in 2v2 (12rax, both gas at 14, factory with first 100 gas, reactor on the rax with next 50, then build a factory on the reactor after I spend 100 gas on siege tech research) and it's actually reasonably effective. You can have issues if they go marauder-heavy... but by then you should have a couple raxes pumping rines or your partner can try and handle it.

I dunno if it's as effective as simple rine/tank, but it DOES work, particularly if you can manage to get some hellions into the mineral lines (very hard in team games.)

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:24 am UTC

Berengal wrote:I'm placed in gold. Well, for a day anyway.

It'll carry over into the new season.

@Beardhammer Well, first of all, Fou is his team name. It's kind of weird to hear "what could have Fou done" when Fou is a group of players. Though calling someone "Golden" seems odd as well...

First game I think he lost because of that really bad first engagement in the middle of the map. GoldenFou underestimated the situation and engaged. I probably would have too. He had another 18 roaches and +1 attack on the way that would have powered through Cruncher's attack. Losing all the overlords sealed the deal. I think GoldenFou should have really had more upgrades than that, but I'd say he was still in a decent position until that bad engagement.

Second is the nexus cancel crap. It's the most obnoxious cheese in the game for me. I usually halfway prepare for it whenever I see a 3gate expand, because you can't actually prepare for it if you drone until you see the cancel... which is incidentally what GoldenFou did. Being a pro player he realized the mistake and sacked the natural, which is the ideal situation at that point, but you can't really come back from that unless your opponent does some sort of big mistake during the attack.

If Cruncher knew that GoldenFou saw the fourth gateway (though he wouldn't have in that case) he probably would have abandoned the plan and kept the Nexus, yes. But chances are that GoldenFou would know that Cruncher would probably abandon the plan and then GoldenFou could keep tabs on him to make sure there's no shenanigans.

But yeah, the ramp forcefield stuff has been annoying since its inception.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:34 am UTC

Game_boy wrote:
|Erasmus| wrote:
rigwarl wrote:Blizzard should just remove the unnecessary micro burden and make it so marines autoshoot when they run, like phoenixes :mrgreen:


Nah, I think the one unit in the Terran arsenal that needs this is the hellion. I see no reason why that little car can't have the flamethrower going while it's driving...


TvT is actually turning into ONLY HELLIONS if you've watched the GSL recently. sC v MVP, qxc v MVP, Dream v Ryung and Bomber v Byun in particular.

Yeah, I've been playing aroun with tank/hellion styles in TvT for a few weeks on and off already. It's quite fun. I've also been using a lot of hellions in TvZ (my 'standard' opening is now reactor hellion expand into marine-tank... map control is so nice to have until mutas are out).

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:49 pm UTC

Just remembered that season 3 starts today!


Also, side note.

I've been thinking about purchasing a gaming mouse (and possibly keyboard) but I'm not sure if it's worth it. Currently I'm using the generic laser mouse that came with my computer without a mouse pad and I don't really have any complaints. But then again, I didn't have any complaints about standard definition until I experienced high definition either...

At the very least I'm going to buy a nice comfortable mouse pad with some wrist support.

Thoughts?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:07 pm UTC

Well, they removed metalopolis from the map pool.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby eeris » Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:12 pm UTC

TheBanana wrote:Just remembered that season 3 starts today!


Also, side note.

I've been thinking about purchasing a gaming mouse (and possibly keyboard) but I'm not sure if it's worth it. Currently I'm using the generic laser mouse that came with my computer without a mouse pad and I don't really have any complaints. But then again, I didn't have any complaints about standard definition until I experienced high definition either...

At the very least I'm going to buy a nice comfortable mouse pad with some wrist support.

Thoughts?



Gaming mice are generally quite good, a gaming mouse mat is probably worth it as well. I really wouldn't bother with a keyboard.

I use an intellimouse and a razer speed mantis.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:16 pm UTC

fuuuu... placement has me still in plat (on SEA), so I proceed to play 7 games tonight, 6 of them against diamonds, winning 6/7. Still in plat... :(

And TvZ is by far my best matchup now. And I'm really enjoying playing it finally... Having a -very- hard time against mass gateway/templar style protoss though. Archons and storm and armour upgraded zealots give me nightmares. :(

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Adacore » Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:30 pm UTC

TheBanana wrote:I've been thinking about purchasing a gaming mouse (and possibly keyboard) but I'm not sure if it's worth it. Currently I'm using the generic laser mouse that came with my computer without a mouse pad and I don't really have any complaints. But then again, I didn't have any complaints about standard definition until I experienced high definition either...

At the very least I'm going to buy a nice comfortable mouse pad with some wrist support.

Thoughts?

I don't have any significant experience with RTS gaming, but for FPS gaming a decent gaming mouse is a near-necessity (this doesn't necessarily mean an expensive or new mouse, just one that is good for gaming). I think it has a significant impact for RTS gaming too, although the precise requirements are probably slightly different - RTS games don't care so much about perfectly consistent tracking, I would guess - they're more interested in the accuracy of cursor 'snaps', where you quickly move your mouse to a location.

Interestingly, I went in the opposite direction from 'comfortable' for my mousepad. I use a Icemat V2, which is a frosted glass pad and isn't exactly designed with comfort in mind - it's very low friction, perfectly consistent (so long as it's clean), and almost infinitely durable though, which is why I got it. Although it does eat mouse-feet.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Decker » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:15 pm UTC

I imagine that gaming keyboards can come in handy for RTS games simply because of programmable keys, like on my old G15.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:39 pm UTC

psion wrote:Well, they removed metalopolis from the map pool.


Unfortunate. Metalopolis is a fantastic map without close positions allowed.

Why is Blizzard so completely resistant to realizing and correcting their mistakes?

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:24 pm UTC

I wouldn't mind at all if the new maps looked good. I feel like I'm going to throw all my vetos on them.

It seems like they're always looking at hard numbers when they make any decision, and when they do present numbers it's fairly dubious. They said that metalopolis was the most imbalanced map in the pool. I can't take that seriously.
What they do and say starts to make a little sense when you think of them as a big robot that attempts to number crunch farcical levels of misinformation.

edit: yay server up

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Swivelguy » Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:31 pm UTC

Wishing I could just play every game on Shakuras checking in.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:53 pm UTC

I think they'll bring back a revamped version of metalopolis eventually. Either way though, I'm personally kind of bored of the map, gameplay was generally very predictable at both my level of play and even at the pro level of play. I'm most upset about scrap station as I thought it was pretty balanced (allegedly it wasn't) and there aren't any other maps with its unique layout.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:27 pm UTC

With rocks! :D

I played 8 games hoping to hit the new maps. It didn't happen, but I'm pretty positive I'm going to want to spend all my vetos on them (only leaving Nerazim).

sixjaxMajOr is in my division, at least until GM opens up.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Jesse » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:38 pm UTC

Sad that Scrap Station is gone, it was kinda unbalanced, but pretty much in my favour, so I was fine with it. Metalopolis is really sad, gonna be playing customs on that one in its honour.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:09 pm UTC

psion wrote:With rocks! :D

I played 8 games hoping to hit the new maps. It didn't happen, but I'm pretty positive I'm going to want to spend all my vetos on them (only leaving Nerazim).

sixjaxMajOr is in my division, at least until GM opens up.

I didn't even like Nerazim (the only new one I've played so far...). I really don't like tha main/nat. I feel like if banshees or mutas make an appearance there's just -so- far to run between the main and nat. If a zerg doesn't immediately get creep spread between them it will take anything hours to get to the other base to defend. I completely manhandled a diamond zerg by just dropping his main/nat constantly (he started putting a lot of spines in his mineral lines, so I went to poking at the front and running back to my siege line, while dropping his main and sniping infestation pits and spawning pools before he could get units back there. Seems wonderfully balanced...


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