Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:14 pm UTC

TheBanana wrote:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/index.php?title=File:Extinction.jpg&filetimestamp=20100525122339

It was that map. It takes 2 or 3 supply depots and two barracks to wall in.

Ouch, ya, that map sucks for walling in. And even if you wall in, someone else is likely to have a hole somewhere.

When I'm playing that map with friends, we tend to have at least 1 zerg as well.

The answer tends to be "don't rely on wall in", and if one player gets rushed send help asap (and be willing to pull drone lines).
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby fjafjan » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:59 pm UTC

Infestors are, at the current state pretty overpowered. The question to me is more how to nerf them, than if to nerf them. NP nerf is not a bad choice, though personally I might have been satisfied with flying massive, or just giving mothership immunity to NP. Like being able to easily completely ruin, and turn against yourself, the most expensive and high tech unit in the game with a smaller investment is pretty insane. "NP, suddenly MY units are cloaked!" is lame as hell.

But what Blizzard really missed out on is nerfing ghosts. Terran can win both match ups without ghosts (more or less), but with ghosts that are used well it's just a slaughter fest. They can snipe all Z T3 pretty damn easy, or EMP festors, and deal insane amounts of damage to protoss units as well as remove the crucial spellcasters with a spell that cannot be dodged and is instant. Increase the cost of EMP to 100, and the cost of snipe to 50, or 30 or something.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:59 pm UTC

fjafjan wrote:Infestors are, at the current state pretty overpowered. The question to me is more how to nerf them, than if to nerf them. NP nerf is not a bad choice, though personally I might have been satisfied with flying massive, or just giving mothership immunity to NP. Like being able to easily completely ruin, and turn against yourself, the most expensive and high tech unit in the game with a smaller investment is pretty insane. "NP, suddenly MY units are cloaked!" is lame as hell.

But what Blizzard really missed out on is nerfing ghosts. Terran can win both match ups without ghosts (more or less), but with ghosts that are used well it's just a slaughter fest. They can snipe all Z T3 pretty damn easy, or EMP festors, and deal insane amounts of damage to protoss units as well as remove the crucial spellcasters with a spell that cannot be dodged and is instant. Increase the cost of EMP to 100, and the cost of snipe to 50, or 30 or something.


Yes. The problem isn't that Ghosts/Infestors are strong, it's that they are good against ALL kinds of units in their respective matchups. As Idra says, there's no reason to not build infestors every game.

The NP nerf is good because infestors are good against groups of weak units but now not good against strong units like Thors or Colossi.

Something situational has to be done to the Ghost too. Most likely, make it ineffective against Brood Lords in some way, so that Terran has to switch between Vikings for BLs and Ghosts for Ultras as the Zerg switches back and forth between them in the lategame. I don't think the Snipe or EMP spell itself is OP.

I think we will see Ghosts made against Muta play too (both 100 gas but Snipe does a lot more damage), see how much Zerg QQs then.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Berengal » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:27 pm UTC

Problem is, NP isn't going to be very useful now. It still has uses, but they're very situational, which means that probably more often than not it's going to be better to spend the research money on something else instead. This means that even in situations where it's useful it's just not going to be available.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby EdgarJPublius » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:44 pm UTC

Game_boy wrote:
fjafjan wrote:Infestors are, at the current state pretty overpowered. The question to me is more how to nerf them, than if to nerf them. NP nerf is not a bad choice, though personally I might have been satisfied with flying massive, or just giving mothership immunity to NP. Like being able to easily completely ruin, and turn against yourself, the most expensive and high tech unit in the game with a smaller investment is pretty insane. "NP, suddenly MY units are cloaked!" is lame as hell.

But what Blizzard really missed out on is nerfing ghosts. Terran can win both match ups without ghosts (more or less), but with ghosts that are used well it's just a slaughter fest. They can snipe all Z T3 pretty damn easy, or EMP festors, and deal insane amounts of damage to protoss units as well as remove the crucial spellcasters with a spell that cannot be dodged and is instant. Increase the cost of EMP to 100, and the cost of snipe to 50, or 30 or something.


Yes. The problem isn't that Ghosts/Infestors are strong, it's that they are good against ALL kinds of units in their respective matchups. As Idra says, there's no reason to not build infestors every game.

The NP nerf is good because infestors are good against groups of weak units but now not good against strong units like Thors or Colossi.

Something situational has to be done to the Ghost too. Most likely, make it ineffective against Brood Lords in some way, so that Terran has to switch between Vikings for BLs and Ghosts for Ultras as the Zerg switches back and forth between them in the lategame. I don't think the Snipe or EMP spell itself is OP.

I think we will see Ghosts made against Muta play too (both 100 gas but Snipe does a lot more damage), see how much Zerg QQs then.


The problem I see with that is that Zerg aren't really that great against strong units like Thor or Colossi anyway, and NP is already somewhat situational.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:55 pm UTC

As Day[9] said in some episode of SOTG, there was some unit compositions in BW (apparently an extremely large mass of tanks in TvP on like 5+ bases) that the Protoss had to just accept they would lose from the point that Terran got there, i.e. an unwinnable strategic position. This may be the case with Zerg: you have to stop them from getting there or else you will lose and that situation is not imbalanced.

Top zergs still have much to learn about midgame positioning and counter-attacking. Zerglings are the cheapest and fastest open-map scouting in the game and are still not spread out to gather information. Especially burrowed zerglings. They need to confine T or P to the point where they can't get out 10 thors or 5 colossi at once, and if they do accept they will never be able to break it cost efficiently and that's not unfair.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Tomo » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:25 am UTC

As a random diamond player, I really like the NP change, and I really liked the amulet change before it. What irks me is that ghosts still get an amulet, and snipe still effects massive units. Those two changes would go a long way towards balancing the game imo.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:33 pm UTC

I really, really don't want to go back to building corruptors against colossi. I refuse. It's also nice to have something actually decent against thors as zerg, but that's something that would really only piss me off in team games I think... At least until SlayerS develops a slick hellion+thor build.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby J the Ninja » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:44 pm UTC

The colossus issue is the same in PvP, we just don't talk about it because 1: we're fucked if they nerf the colossus, and 2: there is ONE counter: have more colossus than they do.

All of this is because gateway units suck. They need to NOT SUCK. Stalkers should do WAYY more damage than they do atm. They're more expensive than roaches and marauders, why are they weaker? Because they can attack air? Please, we have nothing else that effectively fights air, unless you count fighting mutas with phoenix.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:48 pm UTC

J the Ninja wrote:The colossus issue is the same in PvP, we just don't talk about it because 1: we're fucked if they nerf the colossus, and 2: there is ONE counter: have more colossus than they do.

All of this is because gateway units suck. They need to NOT SUCK. Stalkers should do WAYY more damage than they do atm. They're more expensive than roaches and marauders, why are they weaker? Because they can attack air? Please, we have nothing else that effectively fights air, unless you count fighting mutas with phoenix.


That is outdated. Zealot-Archon can crush 2 or 3 colossi + gateway since the Archon range buff (and in patch 1.4.0 guardian shield will affect colossi so your zealots will gain two armour against them making it even stronger).

Gateway units are weaker precisely because we have sentries. This sentry buff will make it feel right.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:36 pm UTC

Game_boy wrote:
J the Ninja wrote:The colossus issue is the same in PvP, we just don't talk about it because 1: we're fucked if they nerf the colossus, and 2: there is ONE counter: have more colossus than they do.

All of this is because gateway units suck. They need to NOT SUCK. Stalkers should do WAYY more damage than they do atm. They're more expensive than roaches and marauders, why are they weaker? Because they can attack air? Please, we have nothing else that effectively fights air, unless you count fighting mutas with phoenix.


That is outdated. Zealot-Archon can crush 2 or 3 colossi + gateway since the Archon range buff (and in patch 1.4.0 guardian shield will affect colossi so your zealots will gain two armour against them making it even stronger).

Gateway units are weaker precisely because we have sentries. This sentry buff will make it feel right.


I wonder if, with the buff to immortal range, immortal void ray will be a useful unit combination in PvP?

I suspect that stalker / speed zealot would be useful against it but a few sentry FF's could change that. I imagine it'd be viable until the other protoss got out archons + zealots + stalkers


Also, I don't know if stalkers should do more dps necessarily (they already own roaches and hold up ok against hydras) but maybe if they could get a range upgrade or something along those lines (hell you could even make it a range upgrade that only comes into play when attacking air units).

Though upon further consideration that would make Brood Lords almost useless against protoss AND make it almost impossible for vikings to kill colossi before being sniped... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

psion wrote:I really, really don't want to go back to building corruptors against colossi. I refuse. It's also nice to have something actually decent against thors as zerg, but that's something that would really only piss me off in team games I think... At least until SlayerS develops a slick hellion+thor build.


I too would like zerg to have an "anti-armor" or "anti-massive" unit. Terran has marauders and Toss have immortals. I guess ultras can theoretically own a pure mech army but bad pathing, clumping etc. makes this not true in practice.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:06 pm UTC

3 collossi = 200/200 (range) + 900/600 (building) + 200/100 (factory) + 200/200 (bay) = 1500 minerals 1100 gas
Buildtime from cyber core is 75*3+65+65=355, with some chrono possible.

High templars need TC (150/100) templar archives (150/200) and two extra gateways (at least).
Time to get the archons out is 50(TC) + 50(TA) + 45 per archon (at 2 gateways), plus 12 for the merge (only last merge counts). 4 archons being out isn't all that unreasonable, which is 400/1200.

Dark Shrine route is 50 extra delay, 50 less minerals and 50 extra gas. 4 archons using DTs is 1000/1000.

Dark Shrine route: 1600 minerals 1300 gas for 4 archons at a delay of 252
Templar Archives route: 1000 minerals 1500 gas for 4 archons at a delay of 202.

The archons do 20 DPS each (splash) vs biological, or about 15 vs non.
The colossi do 18 DPS against everything.

And archons are really expensive. On the other hand, their factories are cheap -- basically you get to quickly dump all of your gas into upgrades, a few sentries, or archons.

The archon is also playing blind -- no observers. Hallucinated phoenix scouts?

The colossi player needs be either psychic (which is easy, he can get observers) or spend resources on stalkers.

---

(they already own roaches

Stalkers own roaches? Really? Are we talking crazy micro stalkers, or A-move stalkers here?
Stalker is 125/50 for 9.7 DPS vs Armored, 6 range, 1 armor, 160 HP. (25 minerals of supply)
Roach is 75/25 for 8 DPS vs Everything, 4 range, 1 armor, 145 HP. (25 minerals of supply)

Roach armor is always there (Stalkers is on only half their HP), and roaches 2 second cooldown means that armor does slightly less to their attacks than stalker attacks.

2 roaches is only slightly more expensive than a single stalker, does 16 DPS and has 290 HP. 60% more DPS, 80% more soak. (admittedly the roaches need more supply).

4 roaches costs 5 larva (including queens). (Queen+Hatch) costs 500 minerals, 1/10+1/15= larva every 6 seconds on average. So it takes 3000 minerals for a roach/second (2400 after you lose units)
Stalkers take 32 seconds from a warpgate (150 minerals) for 4800 minerals for a stalker/second.

So roaches are harder to produce an initial push from en-mass, but just as easy once you have lost units.

Hydras just own stalkers. Hydras problem vs Protoss is Protoss use of Colossi/Templars to do mass area damage, while hiding behind tough yet low-damage output gateway units.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby J the Ninja » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:08 pm UTC

Several people on the Blizz forums have suggested giving the ultralisk the ability to "walk over" other units, similar to the colossus, although without the cliff-stepping part. Might help with the their pathing? Colossi theoretically should suck against ultras, but they tend to do decent enough (in my experience) because the ultras have such a hard time actually getting to them.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:48 pm UTC

I find ultra/colossi fights to be a lot like marine/zealot fights. But where the marines have cliffwalk.

Instead of "walking over", what about "shoving over". Ie, other units have no choice but to make room for a moving ultralisk. Even emplaced siegetanks could be shoved by a simple move command... (which, come to think of it, would be abusive in 2v2! Get your ally to shove your siege tanks forward...)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:55 pm UTC

It would be very very hard to convince Blizzard to buff Ultras that much. And yes it would be a direct buff, because then they could wade into enemy units and have their AoE hit more targets. Whether or not they need such a buff is not important, what is important is convincing Blizzard they need such a buff, which is not easy to say the least.

Much more likely to go through is to let Zerglings run under massive walker units. Functionally the same as far as getting Ultras to the front lines, but more likely to happen.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:15 pm UTC

(they already own roaches

Stalkers own roaches? Really? Are we talking crazy micro stalkers, or A-move stalkers here?
Stalker is 125/50 for 9.7 DPS vs Armored, 6 range, 1 armor, 160 HP. (25 minerals of supply)
Roach is 75/25 for 8 DPS vs Everything, 4 range, 1 armor, 145 HP. (25 minerals of supply)

Roach armor is always there (Stalkers is on only half their HP), and roaches 2 second cooldown means that armor does slightly less to their attacks than stalker attacks.

2 roaches is only slightly more expensive than a single stalker, does 16 DPS and has 290 HP. 60% more DPS, 80% more soak. (admittedly the roaches need more supply).

4 roaches costs 5 larva (including queens). (Queen+Hatch) costs 500 minerals, 1/10+1/15= larva every 6 seconds on average. So it takes 3000 minerals for a roach/second (2400 after you lose units)
Stalkers take 32 seconds from a warpgate (150 minerals) for 4800 minerals for a stalker/second.

So roaches are harder to produce an initial push from en-mass, but just as easy once you have lost units.

Hydras just own stalkers. Hydras problem vs Protoss is Protoss use of Colossi/Templars to do mass area damage, while hiding behind tough yet low-damage output gateway units.


Stalkers own roaches because of blink, quick shield recharge and their quicker speed / range which allows kiting. It doesn't take too high level skill micro to make that the case (a.k.a. I can manage it for crying out loud :P )

J the Ninja wrote:Several people on the Blizz forums have suggested giving the ultralisk the ability to "walk over" other units, similar to the colossus, although without the cliff-stepping part. Might help with the their pathing? Colossi theoretically should suck against ultras, but they tend to do decent enough (in my experience) because the ultras have such a hard time actually getting to them.


That would be a vast improvement but personally I'd rather just have the unit model be smaller, have ultralisks cost less and do less damage and take less supply over all. Basically a Tier 2.5 version of the current Tier 3 ultralisk.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:39 pm UTC

Ah. So off-creap, unupgraded roaches vs blink stalkers?

(Speed upgraded roaches outrun stalkers. On creep, roaches outrun stalkers. With burrow (and eventually claws), roaches outheal protoss shields by a large margin.)

Blink stalkers can hit-and-run roaches, getting off one or two volleys every blink recharge, so long as they aren't required to hold the line or fight up ramp.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Gopher of Pern » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:24 pm UTC

TheBanana wrote:
J the Ninja wrote:Several people on the Blizz forums have suggested giving the ultralisk the ability to "walk over" other units, similar to the colossus, although without the cliff-stepping part. Might help with the their pathing? Colossi theoretically should suck against ultras, but they tend to do decent enough (in my experience) because the ultras have such a hard time actually getting to them.


That would be a vast improvement but personally I'd rather just have the unit model be smaller, have ultralisks cost less and do less damage and take less supply over all. Basically a Tier 2.5 version of the current Tier 3 ultralisk.


How about giving the Ultralisk an upgrade, something like 'Charge'. It would give the Ultralisk a speed boost, lets it run in a straight line, knocking units out of its way for minor damage (friend and foe, but maybe giving lings immunity for some synergy), enabling the ultralisk to reach the front lines faster. A 90 sec cooldown will make sure this isn't spammable, and this makes the ultralisk the siege-breaking ability needed for zerg. You could also maybe have the ultralisk do a relatively large amount of damage if it runs into an immobile unit, such as a siege tank, or a building. Maybe reduce the Ultralisk damage to compensate for the ability to get to where it needs to be.

I admit, I do like the idea of multiple Ultralisks charging a Siege tank line, while lings and roaches stream in behind!
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:41 pm UTC

"Pounce" -- turn them into giant frogs!
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby el_loco_avs » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:10 am UTC

EG Masters cup
Idra vs Morrow Game 2
Spoiler:
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:19 pm UTC

When I was looking at that at first I thought "Even IdrA couldn't think he's losing that fight." Then I read your remark about the nuke and saw how small the cross-hair was.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:43 pm UTC

I'm only going by the screen but it doesn't look like Idra would have lost if he pulled back. He would have lost the Broods, but wasn't unwinnable from there (?)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:53 pm UTC

Well he's already down by 60 food, so presumeably it's not the first fight that went badly that game.

He'd almost certainly lose the broodlords, and I'm not super confident those Infestors could make it out either. That's 38 food gone. On top of he'd likely lose those infestors to vikings and marines already on the field. That's a nearly 60 food army so he likely doesn't have anything else on the field and he can't afford to make much. Yeah...he lost.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:40 pm UTC

I wish that the pros would stick around for the spectacular defeats more often. Or even transition into guerrilla warfare and give at least one try to knock their opponent off balance, like in SC1. I know it's less effective with the improved pathing and death balls and such, but it's also more interesting.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Jesse » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:48 pm UTC

WarDaft wrote:I wish that the pros would stick around for the spectacular defeats more often. Or even transition into guerrilla warfare and give at least one try to knock their opponent off balance, like in SC1. I know it's less effective with the improved pathing and death balls and such, but it's also more interesting.


It'll happen man, the game's still really young. Go back and watch the first couple of tournaments and see how much longer games are now, and the kind of situations people come back from.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Goldstein » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:57 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:Well he's already down by 60 food, so presumeably it's not the first fight that went badly that game.

But check the production tab. He's got 2 zerglings on the way.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby J the Ninja » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:42 pm UTC

When you pull your workers away from DT harass, do make sure where you sent them is not DIRECTLY UNDERNEATH the warp prism that started all of this. That can cause slight economic slowdown. :D :D :D

Then he lagged out. :(
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:45 am UTC

Jesse wrote:
WarDaft wrote:I wish that the pros would stick around for the spectacular defeats more often. Or even transition into guerrilla warfare and give at least one try to knock their opponent off balance, like in SC1. I know it's less effective with the improved pathing and death balls and such, but it's also more interesting.


It'll happen man, the game's still really young. Go back and watch the first couple of tournaments and see how much longer games are now, and the kind of situations people come back from.


Not every game can be a Nestea vs sCfOu. You have to go into each game expecting competency and a single push at 10mins that all but kills the other guy in order to make the crazy games special and memorable.

Also remember real sports (football, baseball and so on). Most games are one-sided walkovers, or nothing happens the whole game. And sometimes you get games that will be remembered for thirty years. Same thing, but since it's e-sport the whole pace of change is sped up. Baseball teams dominate for years; SC2 pros dominate for three weeks (Huk circa Dreamhack, or Fruitdealer circa GSL1).
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby EdgarJPublius » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:18 am UTC

So, apparently the solution to DTs is banelings. Stalkers? Also banelings. Void Rays!? More banelings.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kain » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:54 am UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:So, apparently the solution to DTs is banelings. Stalkers? Also banelings. Void Rays!? More banelings.


When I first started to read that, I assumed it meant keeping a few banelings in the likely attack paths to catch poorly managed dts (which works pretty well against bronze leaguers, as my shouting at my roommate one match would indicate... seriously, he lost 8 dts in the span of two seconds, and the enemy never even saw them).

I've been out of the loop SC wise for a month or so now: have banelings gotten more popular suddenly?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Jesse » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:12 am UTC

Kain wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:So, apparently the solution to DTs is banelings. Stalkers? Also banelings. Void Rays!? More banelings.


When I first started to read that, I assumed it meant keeping a few banelings in the likely attack paths to catch poorly managed dts (which works pretty well against bronze leaguers, as my shouting at my roommate one match would indicate... seriously, he lost 8 dts in the span of two seconds, and the enemy never even saw them).

I've been out of the loop SC wise for a month or so now: have banelings gotten more popular suddenly?


IMLosira. All banelings, all the time.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby EdgarJPublius » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:16 pm UTC

Kain wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:So, apparently the solution to DTs is banelings. Stalkers? Also banelings. Void Rays!? More banelings.


When I first started to read that, I assumed it meant keeping a few banelings in the likely attack paths to catch poorly managed dts (which works pretty well against bronze leaguers, as my shouting at my roommate one match would indicate... seriously, he lost 8 dts in the span of two seconds, and the enemy never even saw them).

I've been out of the loop SC wise for a month or so now: have banelings gotten more popular suddenly?



I murdered a 'Toss player the other day in the late mid-game phase using nothing but banelings and speedlings.

To be fair, he was pretty bronze league, while he had a decent number of DTs, he never actually attacked with them and was just pushing off my hydra+roach pushes while phoenixes and a few VRs kept me from getting any detection into my attacks.

So I said fuck it, spammed 'slings and 'blings and he was silly enough to try to defend a baneling bust with his DTs.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Xanthir » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:03 pm UTC

Wow, that is... a pretty silly thing to do.

I'm still a bronzer, so I had a fun TvZ matchup where the Z was just going nearly pure bling. Since, as I mentioned previously, I'm bronze, I never produced any sieges, and instead kept countering with almost pure marines/medivac (plus a few marauders, since hydras would show up occasionally). I eventually outproduced him and won, but that was a really fun battle, with 8 or 9 large engagements where we each lost about 40 food.

(At one point I started a push that caught a big group of hydras unaware before his blings were ready. If I hadn't done that, I'm pretty sure I'd've lost twenty dollars and my self respect.)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby el_loco_avs » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:42 pm UTC

Xanthir wrote:Wow, that is... a pretty silly thing to do.

I'm still a bronzer, so I had a fun TvZ matchup where the Z was just going nearly pure bling. Since, as I mentioned previously, I'm bronze, I never produced any sieges, and instead kept countering with almost pure marines/medivac (plus a few marauders, since hydras would show up occasionally). I eventually outproduced him and won, but that was a really fun battle, with 8 or 9 large engagements where we each lost about 40 food.

(At one point I started a push that caught a big group of hydras unaware before his blings were ready. If I hadn't done that, I'm pretty sure I'd've lost twenty dollars and my self respect.)

filter pwned? :mrgreen:
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Xanthir » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:59 pm UTC

Heh, I didn't realize that filter was still in place. I'll just leave that there.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Swivelguy » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:48 pm UTC

Xanthir wrote:Wow, that is... a pretty silly thing to do.

I'm still a bronzer, so I had a fun TvZ matchup where the Z was just going nearly pure bling. Since, as I mentioned previously, I'm bronze, I never produced any sieges, and instead kept countering with almost pure marines/medivac (plus a few marauders, since hydras would show up occasionally). I eventually outproduced him and won, but that was a really fun battle, with 8 or 9 large engagements where we each lost about 40 food.

(At one point I started a push that caught a big group of hydras unaware before his blings were ready. If I hadn't done that, I'm pretty sure I'd've lost twenty dollars and my self respect.)


Sounds like you already know marines are bad against banelings, but did you know marauders are quite good against banelings... and bad against hydras?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby J the Ninja » Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:55 pm UTC

For those who didn't hear: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3182509584

NP in 1.4 will still affect massive, but now has range 7 instead of 9.
Shishichi wrote:Applies a sexward force to counter the sexpression effect that Forward Advection can apply to fluid density, particularly along sextainer boundaries. In this way, the sextribute attempts to conserve the overall fluid volume ensuring no density loss.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Xanthir » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:22 pm UTC

Swivelguy wrote:Sounds like you already know marines are bad against banelings, but did you know marauders are quite good against banelings... and bad against hydras?

I did not. It makes sense that they're good against banelings, now that I think about it.

I don't know what's good against hydras. I don't see them very often.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Berengal » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:29 pm UTC

Xanthir wrote:I don't know what's good against hydras. I don't see them very often.
From what I gather, it doesn't really matter unless you're doing something stupid like massing only a single unit.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:02 pm UTC

I watched my first televised game of SC1. OSL finals Fantasy v Jangbi Game 5.

It happened to be one of the best games of all time. And possibly the last, because MSL is dead and OSL/Proleague may not come back. The Korean BW scene is slowly dying.

--

Also the 8-player Dreamhack Invitational was very good, especially the final.

Spoiler for finals players

Spoiler:
Thorzain v DRG. Great series.


Spoiler for result

Spoiler:
3-2 DRG. Game 4 is well worth watching for some of the best muta control and Terran defence over a large area.
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