Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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Sytri
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Sytri » Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:06 am UTC

I used the burrow thing quite a bit yesterday, mainly because I was hungover and couldn't think fast enough to get my drones out of the way. Playing 4v4 I seemed to be the whipping boy for every match. which worked out well because I can defend ok-ish and can comeback quickly. Not enough to fight but enough that the other team will need to focus on me again. ended up with 2 wins because my other team mates killed the opponents off whilst they were trying their best to kill me. Burrow drones works well against terran if you burrow your drones about half a second after they start targeting your hatchery. They think they've killed them off so don't worry about scans if their army is large enough.

I really wish I could have a weekend where I could play as much as I want to and work out all the problems in my game but I just don't have the time, so it's a lot of patching up my builds and orders as much as I can and just playing when I can.

I've been trying out 14 Hatch, 14 gas, 15 pool. It seems to do me reasonably well in the early game but my transitions are terrible and the longer the game goes on the more I find myself going. "OK, get some infestors out now.....not upgraded to lair." Or "No infestor pit"

I get too drawn into just throwing lings and roaches at the opposition to keep them occupied whilst my team mates tech that I'm forgetting how to play. I may go back to 1v1 for a while to just right myself.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:37 am UTC

God I love having platinum MMR. Platinum players do the darndest things. Like, this game. http://drop.sc/347068

Turns out, it's really hard to macro when you sit like this
Spoiler:
Image

So really, in the end, I just randomly made shit and a-moved him.

Those have got to be the most ridiculously inefficient drops I think I have ever seen. He got like 7 SCV kills in about twice as many hellbat drops.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Sytri » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:51 am UTC

OK, if I wanted to post up some replays how do I do it? I really need some help. I thought I had a basic plan and know what to do in a game but I think I've been misleading myself. I'm hoping to have a few matches going on this weekend that I'll post up and hopefully someone can critique me and point out the many faults I have.

Played a game last night 1v1 me (zerg) v Protoss and I honestly don't know where I went wrong. I'll put that one up first then the others that I play.

I wish I had people that played this game in my group of friends, I could at least get better that way.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:14 am UTC

If you go to the replay list (F5) and press this button

Image

It opens the replays folder in windows, selecting the replay you have selected in SC2. I think you can just drag that to drop.sc, at least with chrome and probably firefox.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Sytri » Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:01 pm UTC

OK, here are some of my latest replays. I'm sorry they suck so badly.

http://drop.sc/347113
http://drop.sc/347116
http://drop.sc/347115
http://drop.sc/347121

Just some help with regards to openings would be useful now i think. Treat me like a completely new player because thats how i feel at the moment.

thanks for helping guys and gals.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Koa » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:45 am UTC

A lot of people will tell you to build more drones, to inject more, to get your orbital right away, to not queue building units, to look up builds, and so on. All true and good, but they have common principles that once learned can make them all, at least somewhat, intuitively obvious. I would recommend an experiment where you race for a hypothetical economic victory just so that you can understand the basics of SC2's economy. Play a game by yourself (no opponent or an easy AI if you wish) where you reach max supply on workers as fast as possible.

Some things you'll find: gas income limits your overall economic growth, the faster you build a worker the faster it pays for itself, optimal production efficiency is ideal by reducing all forms of down time (no supply blocks, not forgetting to build a worker for dozens of seconds), as is extra worker production from additional hatcheries/nexus/cc as quickly as possible. It's difficult to express the importance and the subtlety of these factors, so it's just something that you'll have to learn on your own. You obviously can't win by building only workers... well, usually...

Once you understand that economic goal, you'll understand that every bit of army or tech that you build or gas that you mine is in sacrifice of a stronger potential economy. You can get out an army quickly, but it better pay for itself not only in the cost of the unit but also in the cost of that wasted potential. Building units and not being active/effective with them is usually dooming yourself to the worst scenario.

The next step is learning how to use that economy by having the right amount of production at all times, which is difficult to learn and to execute. One of the most common mistakes is the reactor starport on one base, which you did in one game. It's never a good idea unless you're doing a pure hellbat drop all-in. There's not much else I can say about the replays because you're kind of defeating yourself. Maybe someone else can point out the details, but I see you losing a simple numbers game in each replay.

There's plenty of other resources out there, especially for opening build orders. Some builds/strategies are more difficult to execute than others and have different caveats and such. I'm hesitant to endorse anyone myself but they should be easy enough to find. I'll include a replay of me doing the experiment so that you can have a benchmark. You could beat my time if you want, but it's more important that you understand the principles in order for you to be able to help yourself in getting over this first hurdle.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:09 pm UTC

Koa wrote:You obviously can't win by building only workers...


HAH

I remember a WC3 lan match where I acolyte rushed my opponent. His priestess of the moon was surrounded and pummeled to death by the little guys.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:33 am UTC

Dragon accepting the challenge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwJ6vX8ec5s
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:51 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Dragon accepting the challenge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwJ6vX8ec5s


The intelligent thing about this strategy is that the PF and turret upgrades (range and armor) also apply to auto turrets.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:55 pm UTC

Finally bought HotS. Primarily just for the campaign, but I played a little 2v2 with a buddy of mine. We're pretty bad, turns out. Low bronze. Though I can't help but notice that a lot of people in 2v2 are plat or diamond in 1v1. I think we've only faced against one team where both of our opponents were fellow noobs.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:46 pm UTC

HotS placement tends to place you low now, because they eliminated "demoting" during a season.

So now, I think they place you at the bottom of your reasonable ranking, and let you get promoted if you play towards the middle of your expected ranking.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Koa » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:51 pm UTC

I've been playing around with nukes a bit lately. It can put you into some interesting scenarios.
Spoiler:
TvT, someone tries a scv marine all in, but doesn't commit and tries to recover.
1.jpg

He contains me, but you may have noticed the ghost in the first picture.
2.jpg

He immediately abandons that plan. I could have caneled it and chased, but whee explosions!
3.jpg

I'm not sure what he was thinking at this point. He desperately tries to kill the ghost but the marines get roasted. Carnage ensues.
4.jpg

5.jpg

6.jpg

2 hellion 2 ghost drop killing every scv in the meantime, but that's unimportant.
7.jpg

8.jpg

9.jpg

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:08 am UTC

Played a 2v2 today, and my partner in the last game was the worst player I have ever seen. First question was, do you want offense or defense? Later (ten minute mark or so), I told him to expand, and he insisted he was. With his walls (plural indeed) of cannons. So the other team closes in on us with swarm hosts, and he insists on attacking to defend his useless cannon walls, while I am backing up, waiting for an observer to finish, and he declared that he quit.

I hope he means starcraft in general, forever. Because seriously.

I have difficulty juggling everything in the game, but at least I know what a fucking dark templar is. And an expansion. And how useless walls of cannons are.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Zcorp » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:13 am UTC

Not sure how many people follow the competitive scene, but their tournament schedule they just announced is incredibly disappointing and thoughtless.
Community thread discussing it
Blizzard's response

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby yurell » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:15 am UTC

I think TotalBiscuit sums it up best in the first line of his response:
"If you understood the bloody concerns you wouldn't have done it to begin with."
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:30 pm UTC

"Sir there is a massive Dota 2 tournament. The largest ever. It dwarfs us in popularity. Also, our viewers have a lot of overlap with theirs, maybe would be best if we..."

"RAMMING SPEED"

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Diadem » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:59 pm UTC

How much bigger is DOTA than SC2?

I have no idea of the relative popularity of the various E-sports, nor can I find much about it.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Will » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:16 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:How much bigger is DOTA than SC2?

I have no idea of the relative popularity of the various E-sports, nor can I find much about it.

DOTA is big and getting bigger. And this tournament, TI3, is literally going to be the biggest e-sports event, with the largest prize pool, ever. Blizzards screwed the pooch HARD not scheduling around it.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:21 pm UTC


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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Will » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:28 pm UTC

Blizzard has been top dog in the e-sports space for so long they don't even realize how badly the DOTA-likes are eating their lunch. Blizz got too big, too fast with the success of WoW, I think, and their egos grew to match. They really think that they're still the only game in town and don't need to do a good job supporting SC2. They're wrong, and they're only dimly aware of just how wrong they are. Once they wake up to the fact, it'll be too late.

It really makes me sad, because I love SC2, and Blizzard used to be one of my favorite companies.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Diadem » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:33 pm UTC

Will wrote:
Diadem wrote:How much bigger is DOTA than SC2?

I have no idea of the relative popularity of the various E-sports, nor can I find much about it.

DOTA is big and getting bigger. And this tournament, TI3, is literally going to be the biggest e-sports event, with the largest prize pool, ever. Blizzards screwed the pooch HARD not scheduling around it.

Yeah it's interesting. I liked the original dota, and I've had my eye on dota2, but I hadn't gotten around to checking it out. This tournament sounds rather impressive though, it would be an excellent time to pick up the game.

I have no idea what Blizzard is doing. I'm starting to think neither do they.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:48 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:it would be an excellent time to pick up the game.


I'd suggest you try the bot games first in that case - a totally new player can ruin the game for the other 9 and that makes them really really angry, while in bot games people are much more patient and forgiving toward inexperienced players. Also the items valve suggests for heroes are often really dumb - it's often better better to just ask your team. Again, they'll be more helpful in bot games.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Diadem » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:42 pm UTC

By 'more friendly' you mean they will only insult your sexuality once every 30 seconds instead of every 5 seconds? Or are you suggesting that dota2 has an actually friendly player base? Because in that case I definitely will have to check it out :)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:47 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:By 'more friendly' you mean they will only insult your sexuality once every 30 seconds instead of every 5 seconds?


It depends. I'd say normal games are 20% asshole 60% neutral 20% helpful, while bot games are 5% asshole 50% neutral 45% helpful. When someone is an asshole in a bot game the helpful people tend to dogpile him. Also, the most abrasive players tend to be muted by the report system: the most they can do is use the in-game chat system to spam "well played" when you do something they don't like.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Zcorp » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:58 pm UTC

Will wrote:
Diadem wrote:How much bigger is DOTA than SC2?

I have no idea of the relative popularity of the various E-sports, nor can I find much about it.

DOTA is big and getting bigger. And this tournament, TI3, is literally going to be the biggest e-sports event, with the largest prize pool, ever. Blizzards screwed the pooch HARD not scheduling around it.

DOTA estimates were at 20-25 million before DOTA 2 existed. Much of that population is just now entering into the DOTA 2 as the Chinese servers are very new, and they are significant portion of the DOTA population.

Valves backing of DOTA allows probably the least accessible game ever to be far more accessible. So it is probably safe to say we that within a 12-18 months (as Valve ramps up their acceptance of players with server support, or opens it up completely) we are looking at about 30+ million worldwide playing at least a weekly game of dota 2.


Diadem wrote:By 'more friendly' you mean they will only insult your sexuality once every 30 seconds instead of every 5 seconds? Or are you suggesting that dota2 has an actually friendly player base? Because in that case I definitely will have to check it out :)

If you are looking to get into dota 2 I'd be happy to play through a few games with you.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby yurell » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:01 pm UTC

I played the original DotA, and the community was horrid, so when I finally went to LoL I got a pleasant surprise, and now I rarely play Starcraft. I should probably start playing DotA 2 too, but I'm quite reticent given my experience with DotA, I'm not fond of the art, and I've heard silly things like items that make mages worthless late game (I'm not defending veracity of these claims, just stuff I've heard to make me wary), and whenever I see it all I see are people being stunlocked for ten consecutive seconds, which doesn't look at all appealing.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Zcorp » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:04 pm UTC

yurell wrote:I played the original DotA, and the community was horrid, so when I finally went to LoL I got a pleasant surprise, and now I rarely play Starcraft. I should probably start playing DotA 2 too, but I'm quite reticent given my experience with DotA, I'm not fond of the art, and I've heard silly things like items that make mages worthless late game (I'm not defending veracity of these claims, just stuff I've heard to make me wary), and whenever I see it all I see are people being stunlocked for ten consecutive seconds, which doesn't look at all appealing.

This leads down a long discussion that might be better had in the dota thread. Mages are never made worthless in dota. However, magic damage doesn't scale as AP does in LoL. The implications of this are significant and again better discussed in the dota thread.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Derek » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:32 pm UTC

yurell wrote:I played the original DotA, and the community was horrid, so when I finally went to LoL I got a pleasant surprise, and now I rarely play Starcraft.

Huh? I've heard nothing but bad things about the LoL community. If that's an improvement over the original DotA, can't imagine what the original was like.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Will » Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:44 pm UTC

Both Valve and Riot have spent considerable effort creating features to help improve the quality of the community, precisely because it has such an awful reputation. This talk is particularly interesting. The numbers suggest that their efforts are at least somewhat effective.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:46 pm UTC

Derek wrote:
yurell wrote:I played the original DotA, and the community was horrid, so when I finally went to LoL I got a pleasant surprise, and now I rarely play Starcraft.

Huh? I've heard nothing but bad things about the LoL community. If that's an improvement over the original DotA, can't imagine what the original was like.


I played Dota for a LONG time when it first came out, and the community was the worst of any game.

I hear "mid or I feed" in LoL but it really doesnt' happen in a way it did in Dota. It was not uncommon for people in dota to rage, and then just run straight to the enemy 'nexus' over and over. I saw WAY more games ruined intentionally in Dota then I ever have in LoL.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby broken_escalator » Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:05 pm UTC

Having that banlist program was basically required for DotA in WC3. So much griefing.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:21 pm UTC

broken_escalator wrote:Having that banlist program was basically required for DotA in WC3. So much griefing.


I LOVED banlist, sooo great at weeding out feeders/leavers.
Leavers was a HUGE problem in Dota.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Metaphysician » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:51 pm UTC

So I am a complete rts noob. I've played them before but never did anything good like using hotkeys so in general I have just been really bad at them. I want to play SCII multiplayer at some point, I just bought heart of the swarm and I am wondering about the best way of preparing to get into multiplayer. As I stated before, I am a noob. I played SCII a little in beta and did some multiplayer and got the shit kicked out of me every time. What is the best way to prepare? Should I play through single player and just focus on learning the basic mechanics and how to always hotkey? Or should I just play a few AI games to learn basic hotkeys and then jump in to multi?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Adacore » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:13 am UTC

Playing through the singleplayer is probably not the best way to learn, but it's not terrible for learning how the basic game functions and has a mostly-interesting story. The best way to learn is probably to play some games against AI (it doesn't have to be set at a high difficulty), with the focus largely on macro, trying to get to the point where you can get near-continuous drone production and not get supplyblocked too often while being able to build an army and move it around the map. Play each of the races a few times to get some familiarity with it before deciding which you want to play. Pick a relatively simple build-order and try to execute it perfectly. Then once that's going ok, just jump into multiplayer.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:34 am UTC

Build orders are usually described by "when your supply is at X, do Y". As in "10 pool" means "when you have 10 supply, the next thing you do is build a spawning pool". In general, you fill in the "extra supply" with drones (ie, if you don't have something else to do at 10 supply, build as many drones/probes/SCVs as you can to hit the next point in the build order).

Here is a relatively simple build for zerg:
10 spawning pool
10 extractor
10 overlord
10 queen
16 transfer drones from gas to minerals once you have 100 gas.
16 metabolic boost from spawning pool
16 inject larva from queen into hatchery (actually when the queen comes out).
16 overlord
17 start producing zerglings.

Continue producing zerglings and injecting larva until you lose, or enemy loses. If you have 800+ minerals because you screwed up your injects, expand.

From here on out, you need to get your queen to inject larva, and you need to produce zerglings. Rally zerglings near enemy base, but not in view, maybe scout with the first two to see if enemy has expanded. Attack when "metabolic boost" completes.

In a 3v3 or larger, the above strategy is probably good enough to get you into gold if you perfect it. Reaching platnium or diamond may require figuring out "transitions" out of it into other builds, but you might be able to hit diamond just plugging away at the above build and getting really good at zergling micro.

General advice: hotkey your main building. If zerg, hotkey your queens. If doing the above simple build, use F2 liberally to regather your zergling forces. Spend time early on that you have to spare setting overlord scouting. If you have spare time, move queen to inside mineral patch, which can save your bacon if someone else does a faster zergling attack (tell drones to cluster around queen to shield her from zerglings by telling them to move-to-queen while spending all remaining money on zerglings and/or a defensive building).

There are similar strategies you can learn (early one-trick ponies that can hit hard enough to win the game) for other races.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Metaphysician » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:52 am UTC

Yakk wrote:Build orders are usually described by "when your supply is at X, do Y". As in "10 pool" means "when you have 10 supply, the next thing you do is build a spawning pool". In general, you fill in the "extra supply" with drones (ie, if you don't have something else to do at 10 supply, build as many drones/probes/SCVs as you can to hit the next point in the build order).

Here is a relatively simple build for zerg:
10 spawning pool
10 extractor
10 overlord
10 queen
16 transfer drones from gas to minerals once you have 100 gas.
16 metabolic boost from spawning pool
16 inject larva from queen into hatchery (actually when the queen comes out).
16 overlord
17 start producing zerglings.

Continue producing zerglings and injecting larva until you lose, or enemy loses. If you have 800+ minerals because you screwed up your injects, expand.

From here on out, you need to get your queen to inject larva, and you need to produce zerglings. Rally zerglings near enemy base, but not in view, maybe scout with the first two to see if enemy has expanded. Attack when "metabolic boost" completes.

In a 3v3 or larger, the above strategy is probably good enough to get you into gold if you perfect it. Reaching platnium or diamond may require figuring out "transitions" out of it into other builds, but you might be able to hit diamond just plugging away at the above build and getting really good at zergling micro.

General advice: hotkey your main building. If zerg, hotkey your queens. If doing the above simple build, use F2 liberally to regather your zergling forces. Spend time early on that you have to spare setting overlord scouting. If you have spare time, move queen to inside mineral patch, which can save your bacon if someone else does a faster zergling attack (tell drones to cluster around queen to shield her from zerglings by telling them to move-to-queen while spending all remaining money on zerglings and/or a defensive building).

There are similar strategies you can learn (early one-trick ponies that can hit hard enough to win the game) for other races.


So nailing down one specific strategy at a time, perfecting it, and figuring out how to twerk it situationally is a pretty strong method. So first figure out which race I prefer, and then figure out a solid strategy for that race, and get it down. Seems like a simple enough approach for somebody with little experience with the game.
What should young people do with their lives today? Many things, obviously. But the most daring thing is to create stable communities in which the terrible disease of loneliness can be cured.
-Kurt Vonnegut

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Yakk
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:58 pm UTC

Yep. The above build is how I started learning how to play Zerg in HotS. It is simple, direct, and reasonably resilient to my many, many screwups. (BTW: do NOT miss the first overlord at 10 after the pool/gas: missing that will easily cost you games you should win).

I mostly play 3v3 and 4v4 with colleagues, which allows for a certain amount of over-specialization, so transitions are a bit less important (when one of your work colleagues can be expected to have a build that kicks off around when your build peters out, it helps with transition practice). I can toss out a similar Terran build order (as I learned basic Terran recently, so I have build orders in my head). For Protoss, I'd guess I'd advise a 4-gate as a starting build order (it matures a bit slower).
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

Last edited by JHVH on Fri Oct 23, 4004 BCE 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Metaphysician » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:27 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:Yep. The above build is how I started learning how to play Zerg in HotS. It is simple, direct, and reasonably resilient to my many, many screwups. (BTW: do NOT miss the first overlord at 10 after the pool/gas: missing that will easily cost you games you should win).

I mostly play 3v3 and 4v4 with colleagues, which allows for a certain amount of over-specialization, so transitions are a bit less important (when one of your work colleagues can be expected to have a build that kicks off around when your build peters out, it helps with transition practice). I can toss out a similar Terran build order (as I learned basic Terran recently, so I have build orders in my head). For Protoss, I'd guess I'd advise a 4-gate as a starting build order (it matures a bit slower).



Currently I am leaning toward Zerg or Terran.
What should young people do with their lives today? Many things, obviously. But the most daring thing is to create stable communities in which the terrible disease of loneliness can be cured.
-Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Xenomortis » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:32 pm UTC

Real men play Zerg.

Then they bitch and whine about other races, like girls.
Wait...
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Nylonathatep » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:48 pm UTC

Xenomortis wrote:Real men play Zerg.

Then they bitch and whine about other races, like girls.
Wait...


I don't always play Starcraft.

But when I do, I Proxy Reaper Rush with Terran. :)


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