Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby You, sir, name? » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:12 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:Probes, well microed, beat both scvs and drones. Just run them in circles when their shields go down, and let them charge back up.


Not to mention they're very, very annoying.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Jesse » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:07 pm UTC

I got proxy rax'd by a toss player today. I was so stunned by it that I applauded him in chat, then immediately tried doing it myself in the next game, but got caught just before I'd pumped enough guys out to make it work.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Xeio » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:20 pm UTC

Jesse wrote:I got proxy rax'd by a toss player today. I was so stunned by it that I applauded him.
I would applaud too. :P

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Jesse » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:22 pm UTC

It's the same thing, I'm not typing out gateway all the time just to satisfy your pedantry. Everyone eneds to conform to my male, white, Terranism.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Tomo » Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:34 pm UTC

Jesse wrote:It's the same thing, I'm not typing out gateway all the time just to satisfy your pedantry. Everyone eneds to conform to my male, white, Terranism.


It's not pedantry, it's just confusing as hell. And most people call it a proxygate, so it's only one more letter!
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby psion » Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:35 pm UTC

Jesse wrote:It's the same thing, I'm not typing out gateway all the time just to satisfy your pedantry. Everyone eneds to conform to my male, white, Terranism.

Don't tell me you've joined league with Ixtellor.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby |Erasmus| » Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:38 pm UTC

Jesse wrote:I got proxy rax'd by a toss player today. I was so stunned by it that I applauded him in chat, then immediately tried doing it myself in the next game, but got caught just before I'd pumped enough guys out to make it work.

I remember one game where this toss player and I (terran, duh) both went proxy cheese (he went pylon into gate in one corner of my base while i went rax into bunkers in his base). I ended up winning the race though, fortunately.

If you really want to make a really fast proxy rush work though, you need to send the first scv you train into their base and immediately build a bunker (definitely before your first supply depot). You will basically -always- beat the zealots out with that approach because they have to get a pylon before gate, and zealots are slow to build anyway.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:43 am UTC

Jesse wrote:I got proxy rax'd by a toss player today. I was so stunned by it that I applauded him in chat, then immediately tried doing it myself in the next game, but got caught just before I'd pumped enough guys out to make it work.


Double proxy gate is almost impossible to counter in PvT if it isn't scouted in time :-(

|Erasmus| wrote:If you really want to make a really fast proxy rush work though, you need to send the first scv you train into their base and immediately build a bunker (definitely before your first supply depot). You will basically -always- beat the zealots out with that approach because they have to get a pylon before gate, and zealots are slow to build anyway.


... that shouldn't work. You need a rax before you can build bunkers.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby |Erasmus| » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:52 am UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
|Erasmus| wrote:If you really want to make a really fast proxy rush work though, you need to send the first scv you train into their base and immediately build a bunker (definitely before your first supply depot). You will basically -always- beat the zealots out with that approach because they have to get a pylon before gate, and zealots are slow to build anyway.


... that shouldn't work. You need a rax before you can build bunkers.

i meant to say immediately build a rax, then spam bunkers near their mineral line.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:30 am UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
Jesse wrote:I got proxy rax'd by a toss player today. I was so stunned by it that I applauded him in chat, then immediately tried doing it myself in the next game, but got caught just before I'd pumped enough guys out to make it work.


Double proxy gate is almost impossible to counter in PvT if it isn't scouted in time :-(


If you were going for turbo reaper cheese, you can counter it pretty well, since you can kill infinity zealots with a reaper, and once you have a few, its easy to snipe out the pylon.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby mutestorm » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:08 am UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Double proxy gate is almost impossible to counter in PvT if it isn't scouted in time :-(


Not anymore! Zealot nerf! HAHAHA!

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:18 am UTC

mutestorm wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:Double proxy gate is almost impossible to counter in PvT if it isn't scouted in time :-(


Not anymore! Zealot nerf! HAHAHA!


:(


The nerf doesnt work against the korean 4-gate though, since the enemy zealots are also warping in slower.

Besides, I rarely proxy gateway - if im doing a proxy, it involves a forge.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby psion » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:36 am UTC


I think you lost mostly due to passivity in the midgame. Your maynarding was really odd though, specifically to your third base, but also to your second. You sent way too many to your second, which actually hurt your economy. Then you sent drones from your second to your third, which was unnecessary and a long travel time, hurting you even more. It would be more efficient not to maynard at all instead of what you did. What you want to do is have two drones per patch (16), and every drone extra you want to send to your expansion. At the time of your expansion going up you only had two drones more than 2 per patch, so you'd only want to send two and rally new drones to the expansion. Since neither your main nor first expansion were anywhere near two drones per patch, sending drones to your third was completely wasteful.

Your fourth base was a bit late, and your fifth/sixth never came even though you had a clear opportunity to take it. So you didn't have much gas and had to make a bunch of lings, which were used poorly when he attacked your gold. I think you would have won had you been all around more aggressive after hive tech. That means creep spread, expansions, overlord scouts, and using your units instead of letting them idle in your base.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby mutestorm » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:53 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:
mutestorm wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:Double proxy gate is almost impossible to counter in PvT if it isn't scouted in time :-(


Not anymore! Zealot nerf! HAHAHA!


:(


The nerf doesnt work against the korean 4-gate though, since the enemy zealots are also warping in slower.

Besides, I rarely proxy gateway - if im doing a proxy, it involves a forge.


Ah, but 4warp is a totally different story from gate cheese, is it not? Handling it is much easier, and there is a small timing window to counter it, whereas pre-1.1 proxy gate is pretty much a game winner.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:56 pm UTC

mutestorm wrote:
Ah, but 4warp is a totally different story from gate cheese, is it not? Handling it is much easier, and there is a small timing window to counter it, whereas pre-1.1 proxy gate is pretty much a game winner.


It is, but my impression is that the korean 4-gate is much more of a problem than the proxy gate. If you didnt save your chronoboost/didnt start your warpgate tech already, and you are being korean 4-gated, you lose, period. Against a proxy you can at least throw down some spine crawlers and send zerglings at the enemy main, or throw down bunkers and repair them.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby psion » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:08 pm UTC

That's really only for PvP, not PvT.

Grr, I demand patch notes.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Woofsie » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:52 pm UTC

psion wrote:Grr, I demand patch notes.


http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/692221

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:55 pm UTC

psion wrote:That's really only for PvP, not PvT.

Grr, I demand patch notes.


Yeah, im saying that the proxy gate in PvT really isnt all that bad to deal with. If it was super hard to deal with, you would see the top protoss players doing it every single game, sort of like how you see top terran players doing 5 rax reaper against zerg, every single game.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby psion » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:24 pm UTC

That's not the patch notes.

I think that PvT proxy gate is impossible to stop in if it isn't scouted in time is true, but it almost always is scouted in time.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:06 pm UTC

Here are the patch notes: http://us.starcraft2.com/launcher/patch-notes.htm

I like the new clock feature.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:34 pm UTC

That zealot nerf (with nothing being done to marauders) is going to make it even more difficult to hold off a 3-rax a-move push. At best, you have one colossus out by that point (which can be easily sniped). Zealot legs will still work, except now you have 15% fewer zealots.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Mo0man » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:36 pm UTC

Then don't go collosi. Go immortal/stalker
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:50 pm UTC

Mo0man wrote:Then don't go collosi. Go immortal/stalker


That fails so hard against 3 rax marines and marauders.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Mo0man » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:56 pm UTC

Does it fail any less than trying to tech up against someone doing an early-ish push?
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Xeio » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:27 pm UTC

I'm still waiting for the day that charge gets moved to 50/50, because it's fucking insane that concussion shells were buffed to their (practically) free selves while the zealots got no love at all (and they're 90% useless until they get charge).

But, I can dream. :P

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:52 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:I'm still waiting for the day that charge gets moved to 50/50, because it's fucking insane that concussion shells were buffed to their (practically) free selves while the zealots got no love at all (and they're 90% useless until they get charge).

But, I can dream. :P


Its a real problem with 2/3rds of the units you can produce cant catch the enemy, and the one that can catch them is hard countered by the same enemies.


(Stim kiting makes me a sad protoss)

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby mutestorm » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:59 pm UTC

If youre having trouble as toss against 3rax, fast, well microed stalkers is good if you can get them in early. a 2gate can be done if you can prevent the terran from walling.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby rigwarl » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:43 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:That zealot nerf (with nothing being done to marauders) is going to make it even more difficult to hold off a 3-rax a-move push. At best, you have one colossus out by that point (which can be easily sniped). Zealot legs will still work, except now you have 15% fewer zealots.


Worst possible scenario is that you produce one less zealot by making an extra gateway which easily more than makes up for the build time.

Obviously this will affect very early game, but as for the time you can have twilight council + upgrade it shouldn't be a factor.

Also on the topic of concussion shells, I was dicussing this strategy with some people where you go the same build as proxy reaper into infantry rush, but vs toss instead you make a maurader (with concussion ofc) instead of a reaper. If they go zealot first you obviously can kite/kill it, and if they go stalker first you can outmuscle and kill it. I'm wondering if there have been any pro games where this strat has ever been tried? I don't really see how toss can beat it.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby |Erasmus| » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:53 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:That zealot nerf (with nothing being done to marauders) is going to make it even more difficult to hold off a 3-rax a-move push. At best, you have one colossus out by that point (which can be easily sniped). Zealot legs will still work, except now you have 15% fewer zealots.

I understand the warp gate nerf part (they do produce units rather quickly) but I think they could have left normal zealot build time alone. If I know I'm facing 15% less zealots, I know I'll be going for 3 rax, or 2 rax + factory (I love having 3 or so even unsieged tanks against stalkers when i"m pushing here. plus researching siege tech as you move out gives you something if you find they've cannoned in since you scouted) push so much more often even than I do now against 'toss.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:19 pm UTC

rigwarl wrote:
BlackSails wrote:That zealot nerf (with nothing being done to marauders) is going to make it even more difficult to hold off a 3-rax a-move push. At best, you have one colossus out by that point (which can be easily sniped). Zealot legs will still work, except now you have 15% fewer zealots.


Worst possible scenario is that you produce one less zealot by making an extra gateway which easily more than makes up for the build time.

Obviously this will affect very early game, but as for the time you can have twilight council + upgrade it shouldn't be a factor.

Also on the topic of concussion shells, I was dicussing this strategy with some people where you go the same build as proxy reaper into infantry rush, but vs toss instead you make a maurader (with concussion ofc) instead of a reaper. If they go zealot first you obviously can kite/kill it, and if they go stalker first you can outmuscle and kill it. I'm wondering if there have been any pro games where this strat has ever been tried? I don't really see how toss can beat it.


They will chronoboost out the 2nd stalker, and maybe take a few probes off the line to help defend.

I think a better version of that is to just go all in, go for a 7 proxy rax, build a reaper first, kill the probes, when the stalker comes out retreat, kill it with the marauder that you finished, then build a bunker and go to town.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:27 pm UTC

Tank+Raven is a nice combination of units. You can use PDDs to spot high ground. Think about it, how exactly would you destroy a PDD that's spotting for a bunch of tanks?
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:36 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Tank+Raven is a nice combination of units. You can use PDDs to spot high ground. Think about it, how exactly would you destroy a PDD that's spotting for a bunch of tanks?


Drop zerglings on top of the tanks with overlords?

As protoss, you can feedback the PDD (and the ravens)

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:54 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:Tank+Raven is a nice combination of units. You can use PDDs to spot high ground. Think about it, how exactly would you destroy a PDD that's spotting for a bunch of tanks?


Drop zerglings on top of the tanks with overlords?

As protoss, you can feedback the PDD (and the ravens)


Against zerg and protoss, there's really no need to slowly inch forward a tank line either. As much as I try to avoid it in TvT, sometimes you just end up at that ... bad, dark place with the 50 minute games of tank+viking into who can get the most battle cruisers first.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:11 pm UTC

Oh, its critical to go forward slowly against zerg. Otherwise you suddenly get swarmed by zerglings. One of the newer TLO vs dimaga games had that exact scenario, and TLO surrendered after that battle.

Does anyone have a mirror site where I can download the patch?

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby psion » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:24 am UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Here are the patch notes: http://us.starcraft2.com/launcher/patch-notes.htm

Oh, wow. How incredibly disappointing.
rigwarl wrote:Also on the topic of concussion shells, I was dicussing this strategy with some people where you go the same build as proxy reaper into infantry rush, but vs toss instead you make a maurader (with concussion ofc) instead of a reaper. If they go zealot first you obviously can kite/kill it, and if they go stalker first you can outmuscle and kill it. I'm wondering if there have been any pro games where this strat has ever been tried? I don't really see how toss can beat it.

Nazgul vs Strelok in the Razer Domination tournament, during the beta. There's some posts about it in this thread somewhere. Nothing has changed balance-wise since those games in the beta (which is why I'm so disappointed in the patch).
BlackSails wrote:One of the newer TLO vs dimaga games had that exact scenario, and TLO surrendered after that battle.

I think I know what you're talking about. Those games were mainly nonserious showmatches, $50 goes to the winner of the most interesting game.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Robstickle » Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:35 pm UTC

Psion is that you posting in the D9D thread?

Anyways before the next patch I'm going to have to do some ultradrops. It seems like attacking the cc/nexus/hatch will kill all the miners. :D

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Jesse » Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:41 pm UTC

I just had a stupid loss in TvT.Totally had the guy beat, he'd nuked ALL my bloody SCVs, so I went on a last ditch charge at his base. KIlled everything there, but he had an expansion. Was rushing to find it as he was picking off my buildings. Cheeky bastard had put it right behind my base, destroyed the lot there, thinking I was goign to win easy, but it turned out the bugger had flown a Starport off the ground to the edge of the map, and all I had left were marauders. So I got to just watch him win, since I had no ability to make more units, and all he had to do was never land his Starport.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby psion » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:12 pm UTC

Yeah, that's me. I wouldn't have even checked to see people disagreeing with me without basis if you hadn't mentioned it. I should have known better, but those mule arguments make me twitch. Everyone knows how it works, but some people feel the need to exaggerate it to convince themselves that there's strategic depth to be found where none exists.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby mike-l » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:42 pm UTC

psion wrote:Yeah, that's me. I wouldn't have even checked to see people disagreeing with me without basis if you hadn't mentioned it. I should have known better, but those mule arguments make me twitch. Everyone knows how it works, but some people feel the need to exaggerate it to convince themselves that there's strategic depth to be found where none exists.


Heh, strategy discussion on TL is pretty abhorable in general. There really needs to be some kind of ElitistJerks.com-like site with abusive moderation to get good discussion going on :)

In this particular case, I'd say Funkatron is right, but it's so irrelevant it's not worth saying. Supply Drop could be changed so that it 'stole' 100 minerals from the closest mineral patch and you wouldn't notice a difference at all in almost any game. It's certainly not major enough to ever be a consideration between MULEing and Supply Dropping.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby You, sir, name? » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:24 pm UTC

Robstickle wrote:Psion is that you posting in the D9D thread?

Anyways before the next patch I'm going to have to do some ultradrops. It seems like attacking the cc/nexus/hatch will kill all the miners. :D


They're hit if they try to repair it or stand very close to it. But then, that's only ever the case with terran and planetary fortresses, as no other race can repair, and the other variants can simply lift off.

The bug is mildly annoying. Though the hilarity of it makes up for about half of the lost SCVs.
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