X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby setzer777 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:19 pm UTC

Thanks! This is my second playthrough (restarted after squad-wipe against three sectopods), and I noticed that I had opened up light plasma research before doing any beam research.

Also, I'm pretty bad at keeping my assaults alive :-|
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby OklahomaJoe » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:58 am UTC

Picked up XCOM 2012 when it was on sale this summer; not a bad deal for $10. That said, I'm annoyed with how "artificial" the difficulty feels; the AI isn't actually that intelligent, and it feels like even on Impossible the game wouldn't be terribly difficult if not for the extreme stat advantages the aliens usually have over your soldiers. I'm glad the game is difficult (to the point of resulting in my usually rage-quitting out of a session, rather than calmly closing the game!), but I'd really prefer it be difficult due to a clever and intelligent AI, rather than "our soldiers do more damage and are more accurate and have more health than yours!" And, of course, the reliance on RNG is often very frustrating - I've seen aliens that flanked my guys at point blank miss what should've been a guaranteed critical shot, and I've had an entire squad miss their shots on an alien out in the open with a 95%+ chance to hit. When this can result in some of your best dudes dying (and that in itself is also reliant on a coinflip, determining whether or not they start to bleed out instead of just simply die), it gets frustrating.

That said, I watched Beaglerush's Impossible Ironman let's play series on the advice of someone else, and it definitely helped me get into the proper mindset, particularly for looking at maps and situations properly. It also clued me in to satellites reducing panic in the country they're launched into, which the game doesn't seem to tell you at any point (the tutorial just says "hey, we got a satellite, pick a country!") I've been playing Classic Ironman (playing regular mode feels too much like save-scumming), and I always seem to get hosed around the time Mutons show up, for one reason or another. First time it was an assault on a landed UFO and pretty much the entire crew aggro'd all at once (floaters randomly show up, then a squad of mutons decides to poke its head in, and then a squad of thin men pops up, all without my squad having moved more than a few tiles from spawn.) Second time I'd forgotten about mutons using grenades and my squad started chain-panicking and shooting each other after someone got gibbed by a grenade.

What's generally considered to be the best tech progression path? After watching Beaglerush's videos, I've been going straight to Weapons Fragments -> Beam Weapons for laser rifles and laser pistols, and then following that up with Alien Materials -> Carapace Armor. I'll usually have laser rifles in time for the first terror mission, which seems absolutely critical to being able to deal with the chryssalids there, and I'll usually have carapace armor by time mutons start showing up (again, feels absolutely critical since you will take damage fighting mutons on most maps.) I'm wondering about skipping Xeno-Biology and the related tech paths, though; without the one-time use things for interceptors, it's really tough bringing down anything larger than small scout UFOs. Every time I've tried to double up on the mediums, the UFO escapes before the second interceptor reaches them.

I also tend to run low on funds in most cases. I've been starting in Asia since the half-cost Officer School upgrades seem brokenly overpowered (5-man squad for $25? Hell yeah!), and I like to try and get satellites over Brazil and Argentina for the instant autopsy/interrogation bonuses. I've also generally been going for Engineer or Scientist rewards from abduction missions, since that means I don't necessarily have to build more workshops or laboratories to get them, and you need quite a few engineers to be making laser rifles and carapace armor. Unfortunately, this means I often don't have a lot of money available for other things, especially building or upgrading interceptors, or expanding my base. Should I just be selling off the flight computers and UFO energy sources I find, even the intact ones? Doesn't seem like I'll have much opportunity to research them, when it feels like I have to spend every spare day researching better armor and weapons to keep up with the Joneses.

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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby EdgarJPublius » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:20 pm UTC

Just picked up this game during the latest Steam sale and have been unable to stop playing it.

I put in about 6 hours when I first started playing and only snapped out of it because the game crashed and I realized I had been so engrossed I completely forgot to save. I had been doing quite well up to that point despite only having one assault and one heavy.

Second playthrough I restarted when I got a squad wipe in the the first encounter with chrysalids and decided to do a little research on better tactics and optimizing my builds.

Turns out, I had basically intuited the best Assault build for my playstyle already but had misread the Heavy's Bullet Swarm and Shredder Rocket abilities (I though Shredder Rockets replaced the Heavy's normal rocket, and that Bullet Swarm just allowed you to shoot-then-move, not to shoot-then-shoot) Also, I turned on ironman for my third (and current) play through because it was easier to find than the autosave option (seriously, I kicked myself when I was cruising through the options and found out could have just turned on autosaves without needing to resort to Ironman)


This game is hella fun though, even past the initial fascination I've found it all to easy to get lost in hours of shooting down UFOs and doing my best impression of Will Smith from Independence Day. This game hits all the right buttons for me and I'm having to expend some considerable will power not to be playing it right now.
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:10 pm UTC

OklahomaJoe wrote:I also tend to run low on funds in most cases. I've been starting in Asia since the half-cost Officer School upgrades seem brokenly overpowered (5-man squad for $25? Hell yeah!), and I like to try and get satellites over Brazil and Argentina for the instant autopsy/interrogation bonuses. I've also generally been going for Engineer or Scientist rewards from abduction missions, since that means I don't necessarily have to build more workshops or laboratories to get them, and you need quite a few engineers to be making laser rifles and carapace armor. Unfortunately, this means I often don't have a lot of money available for other things, especially building or upgrading interceptors, or expanding my base. Should I just be selling off the flight computers and UFO energy sources I find, even the intact ones? Doesn't seem like I'll have much opportunity to research them, when it feels like I have to spend every spare day researching better armor and weapons to keep up with the Joneses.


Save every penny until you can afford to launch more satellites - expanding your satellite coverage massively boosts your income, but if you're not careful, you can find yourself without enough money for a satellite (and satellite uplink) and having to spend more than you can afford just to not die, and just ending up overwhelmed. Improved satellite coverage also gives you more defence against nations panicking and against alien assaults.

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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby ElWanderer » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:59 pm UTC

OklahomaJoe wrote:First time it was an assault on a landed UFO and pretty much the entire crew aggro'd all at once (floaters randomly show up, then a squad of mutons decides to poke its head in, and then a squad of thin men pops up, all without my squad having moved more than a few tiles from spawn.)

Yeah, the deaths that stick in my head are usually from missions where you get jumped at the start. If you stand and fight in the open, you can get whupped. If you move into close cover you invite grenades and get whupped when your cover is blown away. If you move forward into better cover you can still get whupped, and each move runs the risk of uncovering more alien groups... I believe the correct end to that is "that's XCOM, baby".

Should I just be selling off the flight computers and UFO energy sources I find, even the intact ones? Doesn't seem like I'll have much opportunity to research them, when it feels like I have to spend every spare day researching better armor and weapons to keep up with the Joneses.

I'd say yes at first - early money is really, really useful and you will have plenty of time before you need to research those items. Sell everything except weapon fragments if you need to. If a lack of flight computers means you delay getting a satellite nexus, so be it - you can still cover twelve countries with satellites with four uplinks in 2x2 formation.
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby EvanED » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:15 pm UTC

I started a game a bit ago and will continue at some point. Should I just sort of bumble through not knowing what the heck I'm doing and wing it, or spend some time reading about strategies first?

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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby pseudoidiot » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:16 pm UTC

I played it first on easy so I could just bumble through and managed just fine.
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby Zohar » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:22 pm UTC

pseudoidiot wrote:I played it first on easy so I could just bumble through and managed just fine.

I had pretty much the same experience as Pseudo except I used an X360 controller, I live on the other side of the world, we're not the same age, he's married and I'm gay, I know more languages, I don't eat meat and it's currently night time for me.

But other than that, pretty much the same experience.
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby pseudoidiot » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:31 pm UTC

Joke's on you! I ALSO used a 360 controller, because I played Xcom on the 360.
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby EdgarJPublius » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:42 pm UTC

ElWanderer wrote:
OklahomaJoe wrote:First time it was an assault on a landed UFO and pretty much the entire crew aggro'd all at once (floaters randomly show up, then a squad of mutons decides to poke its head in, and then a squad of thin men pops up, all without my squad having moved more than a few tiles from spawn.)

Yeah, the deaths that stick in my head are usually from missions where you get jumped at the start. If you stand and fight in the open, you can get whupped. If you move into close cover you invite grenades and get whupped when your cover is blown away. If you move forward into better cover you can still get whupped, and each move runs the risk of uncovering more alien groups... I believe the correct end to that is "that's XCOM, baby".


Yep.

Just had a mission where I moved my medic up as the first move and revealed three groups of Mutons and a Berserker.

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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby Ralith The Third » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:53 pm UTC

I may be the odd one here, but I prefer ironman, because if I'm not on ironman, I forget to save even between missions, whereas on ironman it does it for me.
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby OklahomaJoe » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:53 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:Yep.

Just had a mission where I moved my medic up as the first move and revealed three groups of Mutons and a Berserker.

Ironman mode is a harsh mistress.


I've found Battle Scanner is a great way of avoiding this kind of thing, at least a little. It's really great for revealing and getting free shots on cyberdiscs and sectopods before they even "activate." With HEAT Ammo and a couple of Snipers, it feels a hell of a lot safer than scouting with an Assault or Support.

EDIT: And so ends my most recent C/I run. Second terror mission (or was it the third...?), forgot to give one of my heavies skeleton armor somehow and when the rest of my squad was cheerfully zipping onto a roof to run away from the swarm of chryssalids, she got left behind. Well, that, and some asshole chryssalid busted through a door next to my colonel assault and tore him to pieces. In all honesty, I doubt that was a game over, but... man, it was demoralizing to lose a veteran squad member to something so idiotic; I must've accidentally double clicked when giving her the armor and I guess it swapped her back to carapace armor instead of the skeleton suit. sigh.

My new game is goofy. I failed to shoot down the first little UFO (literally every single missile I shot missed) and wasn't able to bring down the next, medium UFO, so I'm not able to begin research on carapace armor or lasers. On the other hand, I've got piles of credits, I'm working on my fifth satellite already, and there are only two countries at 4/5 panic. Kind of excited to see how this plays out; maybe I can prioritize capturing a floater and a sectoid to give me a leg up on getting caught up on my tech once I finally bring down a damned UFO.

Still chuckling over every damned missile missing... stupid XCOM.

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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby setzer777 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:54 pm UTC

Ralith The Third wrote:I may be the odd one here, but I prefer ironman, because if I'm not on ironman, I forget to save even between missions, whereas on ironman it does it for me.


Yeah, I prefer ironman too, though I haven't won on ironman yet (beat normal difficulty and then tried going straight to ironman classic). I like not having even the temptation of loading an earlier save every time something goes wrong.
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:37 pm UTC

At least one person has beaten the game on ironman impossible. Hax, I call hax.

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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby Kag » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:43 pm UTC

Eh, if you have a solid plan for what to do on the strategy layer, it's not too bad. Once you get to month 4 you're pretty much set.
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby OklahomaJoe » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:07 am UTC

Kag wrote:Eh, if you have a solid plan for what to do on the strategy layer, it's not too bad. Once you get to month 4 you're pretty much set.


Yeah, XCOM's difficulty curve is very front-loaded. The first few months are brutal, but after that it's mostly smooth sailing as long as you don't get incredibly unlucky or do something stupid.

I feel like the strategic end is a little simpler than I'd like, though; it's basically "make satellites, get engineers, make more satellites, get more engineers, win game." If there's any rebalancing I'd like to see, it's on the strategic end.

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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby Yoshisummons » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:10 am UTC

The first two months are the "do or die" part of Iron-maning on impossible since they're the months on when you rely on the "coin flips" the most "OK Jim you got this, Tim blew up the mind melding sectoid's cover and you got a 82% shot *miss*, fucking hell Jim". Though it's mostly because if you fail a couple 80% shots in a row and a member dies you lose 25% of your team compared to UFO Defense. After 260 hours it is just feels so frustrating with all the bugs still in the game and the game often feels like it's totally out to troll you like it does with Maddjinn, with enemy teleportation, some corners are immune to flanking, and not to mention learning bugs the hard way like using disabling shot on an over-watched sectoid gives them unlimited number of over-watch chances. I do feel better now.
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby OklahomaJoe » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:58 am UTC

Yoshisummons wrote:The first two months are the "do or die" part of Iron-maning on impossible since they're the months on when you rely on the "coin flips" the most "OK Jim you got this, Tim blew up the mind melding sectoid's cover and you got a 82% shot *miss*, fucking hell Jim". Though it's mostly because if you fail a couple 80% shots in a row and a member dies you lose 25% of your team compared to UFO Defense. After 260 hours it is just feels so frustrating with all the bugs still in the game and the game often feels like it's totally out to troll you like it does with Maddjinn, with enemy teleportation, some corners are immune to flanking, and not to mention learning bugs the hard way like using disabling shot on an over-watched sectoid gives them unlimited number of over-watch chances. I do feel better now.


What bugs have you noticed, other than the one you mentioned? I've been shot at (and shot at aliens) by aliens on overwatch that I wouldn't have thought had vision of me, considering they shot through a solid wall and through another solid wall to a soldier on the other side, but I wasn't sure if that was a bug versus just really wonky gameplay. I've heard that heavies being able to fire rockets through solid walls without obstruction if they're right next to it is another bug, though the only time I've seen it in action is in one of Beaglerush's videos.

The teleportation aspect is annoying, yeah, especially when you spend five turns carefully searching for that last squad of sectoids, and suddenly they've teleported behind you and activate themselves while your guys are still out in the middle of the street playing follow the leader. Not really sure why they have the whole "alien squads will teleport around randomly until located," thing.

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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby Yoshisummons » Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:57 pm UTC

Hmm lets see, there is the one where the aliens will cascade trigger on the graveyard map that is often used for bomb missions.

There is the one where on the highway construction site with the bus in the back(you know the one) where by standing on the small elevated curb with the fire hydrant makes you immune from having enemies have a height advantage(at least from the highest spot possible) even though his buddy that is standing one square off the small curb thing.

There was always the one where the thin men jump down behind the building on the astronomer escort mission(the one with the crazy theory that the aliens developed FTL travel) become invisible.

Then there is the one where after using the frag grenade to blow cover the alien becomes invisible in the fog but the same guy can shoot another alien ie: see through the fog.

The transparent doors(for aliens only of course) on the always night warehouse with the trucks.

The ability to shoot through the overhanging rock formation in one of the alien base maps.

Those are the ones I can remember off the top of my head after not touching it in forever.

Edit: oh yea and there is always a squad of automatically tripped aliens in the forever raining street corridor map behind that police car.
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby ElWanderer » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:01 pm UTC

30 new Steam achievements have appeared, fueling speculation that a large expansion pack (or several smaller ones, like the Slingshot DLC) is about to appear.

Also:
Last night a mysterious entry appeared on the South Korean ratings board website – something called XCOM: Enemy Within. And that was all that was known. Technically, that is still all that is known, except that now we know it’s for real. Publishers 2K have confirmed to Eurogamer that it, whatever it might be, will be revealed at Gamescom later this month.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/08/01/an-outsider-what-is-xcom-enemy-within/

At first, it had been suggested it could be a sequel, but that seems unlikely given the way the new achievements have appeared. We should know more on the 21st of August.
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby OklahomaJoe » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:38 pm UTC

If it's an expansion pack for EU, I really hope they focus on fixing a lot of bugs and stuff present in the game... or at least adding proper modding support so users can fix them.

It's so damned annoying triggering overwatch shots when there are two damned walls between you and the alien's line-of-sight. I've had too many Ironman games ended that way.

EDIT:

Just lost a game because a rookie panicked and killed the VIP I was escorting. Well, I mean I could've continued, but it was the first council mission and it seems smarter to just start over when you're barely an hour into the playthrough.

Why the hell isn't the player given any sort of control (even very limited) over panic? How hard would it be to put an Officer Training School upgrade into the game that prevents soldiers from shooting friendlies when they're panicking? Don't modern-day armies train extensively to help their soldiers control this very thing? Aren't XCOM rookies supposed to be the best of each contributing country's best, not some random E-0 fresh out of basic training?

So why not have a simple upgrade to give the player that small amount of control over the random chance? Some players might not want to spend 125 spacebucks to take friendly fire off the table, but that's okay - the point is, they're given the choice, rather than having some bullshit random number decide "nope, it's time to start this game over, kiddo."

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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby Derek » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:45 am UTC

OklahomaJoe wrote:EDIT:

Just lost a game because a rookie panicked and killed the VIP I was escorting. Well, I mean I could've continued, but it was the first council mission and it seems smarter to just start over when you're barely an hour into the playthrough.

Why the hell isn't the player given any sort of control (even very limited) over panic? How hard would it be to put an Officer Training School upgrade into the game that prevents soldiers from shooting friendlies when they're panicking? Don't modern-day armies train extensively to help their soldiers control this very thing? Aren't XCOM rookies supposed to be the best of each contributing country's best, not some random E-0 fresh out of basic training?

So why not have a simple upgrade to give the player that small amount of control over the random chance? Some players might not want to spend 125 spacebucks to take friendly fire off the table, but that's okay - the point is, they're given the choice, rather than having some bullshit random number decide "nope, it's time to start this game over, kiddo."

You do have a degree of control: Veteran soldiers and soldiers with a greater mental stat are less likely to panic. If you can't afford a panic, don't send in rookies. Yes, it is a catch-22. This is a key part of the game design. They do give you one upgrade that is a small help though: New recruits start out at the second level (ensign? I don't remember).

Aren't XCOM rookies supposed to be the best of each contributing country's best, not some random E-0 fresh out of basic training?

But they were never trained to face aliens, which they probably didn't even know existed a week before their first mission.

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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby Ralith The Third » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:47 am UTC

... or if they did, they're proooobably not the sort you want out in public.
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby OklahomaJoe » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:12 am UTC

Derek wrote:You do have a degree of control: Veteran soldiers and soldiers with a greater mental stat are less likely to panic. If you can't afford a panic, don't send in rookies. Yes, it is a catch-22. This is a key part of the game design. They do give you one upgrade that is a small help though: New recruits start out at the second level (ensign? I don't remember).


It doesn't have to be a rookie or squaddie to panic; remember, the entire squad panicked, including the VIP and the sergeant I had; it was just that the rookie was the one closest to the VIP, so she's the one that shot him (I had my support shoot at my rookie from halfway across the map in the same turn, but missed.)

I don't consider Will to be a form of control, because it's completely arbitrary. Unless you're using Second Wave mutators, every single trooper of the same class will have an identical Will stat. The only things that affect Will are being critically injured, various buffs or debuffs, or items like Mind Shield, none of which are at all relevant until you're far enough into the game that panic isn't likely to happen anymore without psi abilities or the occasional successful Intimidate check taking place. And even then, it's not really a form of control since we don't have any idea what panic mechanics are like, other than it seems to check every time the trooper takes damage or sees an allied unit (most idiotically of which includes mind-controlled aliens for some reason; I guess those troopers really get attached to those Muton Elites) killed or critically wounded.

It feels like the game is deliberately penalizing you when you're already being penalized as it is - you just took damage (anything below impossible) or just lost a trooper (getting hit on impossible basically means losing a trooper), and your remaining troopers panicking robs them of their turn and potentially even makes them move into weaker cover (and potentially triggering reaction shots during the move!) Why is friendly fire even on the table? Because some windowlicking twat on the "design" team went "That's XCOM, baby!" while furiously masturbating onto his keyboard?

But they were never trained to face aliens, which they probably didn't even know existed a week before their first mission.


I absolutely refuse to believe elite special forces like Green Berets, SAS, and SEALs would completely forget the years of training and experience they have just because they see some little gray men shooting green stuff. The entire point of the training those soldiers go through endlessly is specifically to deal with panic and stress - so that when their mind tries to go all ape mode on them, the training comes through and keeps them under control.

It's absolutely feasible they could panic and choose to hunker down or run to "better" cover, especially when the freaky aliens like mutons start popping up, but turning and blasting a buddy? No fucking way; these aren't Army regulars, they're experienced, veteran special forces operatives.

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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby Jack21222 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:45 am UTC

OklahomaJoe wrote:It feels like the game is deliberately penalizing you when you're already being penalized as it is - you just took damage (anything below impossible) or just lost a trooper (getting hit on impossible basically means losing a trooper), and your remaining troopers panicking robs them of their turn and potentially even makes them move into weaker cover (and potentially triggering reaction shots during the move!) Why is friendly fire even on the table? Because some windowlicking twat on the "design" team went "That's XCOM, baby!" while furiously masturbating onto his keyboard?


That's XCOM, baby!

If you wanted an easy game where unfair shit doesn't happen to you, why are you playing on impossible ironman?
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:04 pm UTC

Jack21222 wrote:That's XCOM, baby!

If you wanted an easy game where unfair shit doesn't happen to you, why are you playing on impossible ironman?


He wants a hard game were unfair shit doesn't happen to you - where when you lose it's because you weren't good enough, not because the game decided it was time to drop a mountain on you.

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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby Jack21222 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:50 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
Jack21222 wrote:That's XCOM, baby!

If you wanted an easy game where unfair shit doesn't happen to you, why are you playing on impossible ironman?


He wants a hard game were unfair shit doesn't happen to you - where when you lose it's because you weren't good enough, not because the game decided it was time to drop a mountain on you.


I might have misread what he said earlier. I thought he said he was playing on impossible ironman. He might be on classic ironman. On classic difficulty, things aren't as bad as he's portraying. If he wants a "fair" game, classic is where it's at, imo. On that difficulty, if you lose twenty dollars and my self respect it IS because you weren't good enough.
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby OklahomaJoe » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:31 pm UTC

Jack21222 wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:
Jack21222 wrote:That's XCOM, baby!

If you wanted an easy game where unfair shit doesn't happen to you, why are you playing on impossible ironman?


He wants a hard game were unfair shit doesn't happen to you - where when you lose it's because you weren't good enough, not because the game decided it was time to drop a mountain on you.


I might have misread what he said earlier. I thought he said he was playing on impossible ironman. He might be on classic ironman. On classic difficulty, things aren't as bad as he's portraying. If he wants a "fair" game, classic is where it's at, imo. On that difficulty, if you lose twenty dollars and my self respect it IS because you weren't good enough.


How is panic a fair mechanic? There's nothing the player can do to control or mitigate it, at all. It's tied to Will, which is completely out of the player's control until it's so late in the game that your troopers have a Will stat high enough that they aren't likely to panic, anyway.

How is playing a mission well only to instantly lose it to a random chance within a random chance fair?

This is what's so stupid about those "That's XCOM, baby!" fools; they aren't actually thinking or responding to an argument, they're just regurgitating something that everyone else says because they lack any intelligent rebuttal or constructive criticism of the arguments being made.

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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby ArgonV » Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:06 pm UTC

I've always felt that panicking soldier should be uncontrollable, but either charge the enemy and probably get themselves killed, permanently hunker down or run back to the Skyranger.

And what do people here think about Xcom: The Bureau? I'm somewhat sceptical

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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby Ralith The Third » Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:07 pm UTC

It looks really cool.

So did Spore.

I'll wait until it's out, instead of getting burned.
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby Jack21222 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:51 pm UTC

OklahomaJoe wrote:How is panic a fair mechanic? There's nothing the player can do to control or mitigate it, at all.

Have you tried not getting shot? Move more carefully and protect your rookies.
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby setzer777 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:06 pm UTC

Jack21222 wrote:
OklahomaJoe wrote:How is panic a fair mechanic? There's nothing the player can do to control or mitigate it, at all.

Have you tried not getting shot? Move more carefully and protect your rookies.


To be fair, Mutons can make your soldiers panic just for shooting them. It was really ridiculous when my rooftop sniper panicked after shooting a Muton halfway across the map.
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby Ralith The Third » Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:20 pm UTC

Jack21222 wrote:
OklahomaJoe wrote:How is panic a fair mechanic? There's nothing the player can do to control or mitigate it, at all.

Have you tried not getting shot? Move more carefully and protect your rookies.


Valid option in Classic.

Ironman Impossible?

Aliens just give full cover the bird. I've actually had a squad on the first team get wiped out by 3 sectoids. No more spawned, and all of my team members were hit while in full cover.
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby setzer777 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:33 pm UTC

Ralith The Third wrote:
Jack21222 wrote:
OklahomaJoe wrote:How is panic a fair mechanic? There's nothing the player can do to control or mitigate it, at all.

Have you tried not getting shot? Move more carefully and protect your rookies.


Valid option in Classic.

Ironman Impossible?

Aliens just give full cover the bird. I've actually had a squad on the first team get wiped out by 3 sectoids. No more spawned, and all of my team members were hit while in full cover.


Yeah, I read that you pretty much have to "hunker down" to get the same defensive benefit that full cover gives you in classic.
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby Ralith The Third » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:02 pm UTC

At which point you can do nothing offensively, unfortunately.
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby pseudoidiot » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:55 pm UTC

The best offense is a good defense!

Wait..
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby setzer777 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:05 pm UTC

On the other hand, it is called "impossible", so I guess you can't really complain...
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby Vaniver » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:46 am UTC

OklahomaJoe wrote:How is playing a mission well only to instantly lose it to a random chance within a random chance fair?
My impression is that this is how most Roguelikes are; if you play perfectly, you have an X% chance of winning (where X is typically something like 5 or lower) and if you make mistakes that pretty quickly hits 0%. XCom sets the X very close to 0.
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby setzer777 » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:07 am UTC

I don't think most roguelikes are that extreme. The ones I've heard about experts talk about being able to win every few games (definitely more than 1/20), especially if they take advantage of exploits.
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Re: X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown

Postby Derek » Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:37 am UTC

Yeah, well designed roguelikes don't depend heavily on luck just to beat the game if you know what you're doing. In Nethack pretty much every game can be beaten if you're patient. One player ascended thirteen times in a row, just to show it was possible.

It may seem like you're getting totally screwed by the RNG, but this typically means that you are being too risky, or you're overlooking alternative options to get out of tough spots.


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