Super Smash Bros.

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby michaelandjimi » Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:51 am UTC

Yeah, you misunderstand. Banning MetaKnight doesn't mean banning Zelda, even if she can beat him consistently. Because he's better than her as a character, because he can hand most characters' arses to them.
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Gelsamel » Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:51 am UTC

Maseiken wrote:BUT, and it is a big but (I cannot lie), I believe that the game is mostly balanced, while Metaknight is quite good, it doesn't take an astonishingly skilled Zelda to take care of, and even a fairly accomplished wolf can deal with that same Zelda. So yes, there are character advantages, but none of them are game-breaking, and the difference is small enough to not overtly effect play.


Basically, at competition level.... THIS^^.

When you're a noob at the game the difference between characters is exacerbated, and some characters switch tiers entirely. For instance, someone very new at the game it would probably go Ike->MK->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->Everyone Else (Ike destroys noobs it's funny). At a slightly higher level MK->Snake->->->->->->->->->->Everyone else. At competition level though, the differences aren't all -that- bad, and the stats for MK/Snake winning a lot are from people picking them and maining them a lot (probably because of their previous perceptions).
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Chuff » Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:55 am UTC

In general, Skill > Matchup > Stage > Playing Style > Major Luck (Pulling a 9 on Judgement Type) > Tiers > Minor Luck


That does not mean tiers mean nothing, however.
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Gelsamel » Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:56 am UTC

I'm not sure I'd put Matchup that high, or maybe it is that high but it's Skill >>>> Matchup > Rest.

I've seen heaps of great players rip holes in everything with characters who have poor matchups across the board.
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Chuff » Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:57 am UTC

Gelsamel wrote:I'm not sure I'd put Matchup that high, or maybe it is that high but it's Skill >>>> Matchup > Rest.

I've seen heaps of great players rip holes in everything with characters who have poor matchups across the board.

Yeah it is. It's kind of like "First there's skill."




"then, at equal skill..."
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Gelsamel » Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:59 am UTC

Chuff wrote:
Gelsamel wrote:I'm not sure I'd put Matchup that high, or maybe it is that high but it's Skill >>>> Matchup > Rest.

I've seen heaps of great players rip holes in everything with characters who have poor matchups across the board.

Yeah it is. It's kind of like "First there's skill."




"then, at equal skill..."


Yeah pretty much. Also at low skill the tiers and playstyle move up to really high contribution. (Ie, when you're first starting MK seems like hax, and Ike for some reason destroys you in 1 hit). But once you get up there it's really just mostly skill.
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Chuff » Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:03 am UTC

Gelsamel wrote:
Chuff wrote:
Gelsamel wrote:I'm not sure I'd put Matchup that high, or maybe it is that high but it's Skill >>>> Matchup > Rest.

I've seen heaps of great players rip holes in everything with characters who have poor matchups across the board.

Yeah it is. It's kind of like "First there's skill."




"then, at equal skill..."


Yeah pretty much. Also at low skill the tiers and playstyle move up to really high contribution. (Ie, when you're first starting MK seems like hax, and Ike for some reason destroys you in 1 hit). But once you get up there it's really just mostly skill.

It really depends though. For example, at low levels, link is absolutely terrible, but as you get higher, he has some crazy techs that make him slightly okay.

Or the ultimate example, Ice Climbers. They suck ass if you suck, but if you get a pro, they are literally unstoppable with wobbling.
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Thenzon » Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:16 am UTC

I really don't look at where a character is on the tier list. I SUCK as MK, yet I play pretty well as Ganondorf, second from the bottom. It really comes down to the players skill level in the end. A noob player will inevitably lose more, no matter what character they play, and a pro will win more no matter what character they play.
Every character has their ups and downs, but its how they're used that determines whether someone will win or not.

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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Chuff » Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:21 am UTC

Thenzon wrote:I really don't look at where a character is on the tier list. I SUCK as MK, yet I play pretty well as Ganondorf, second from the bottom. It really comes down to the players skill level in the end. A noob player will inevitably lose more, no matter what character they play, and a pro will win more no matter what character they play.
Every character has their ups and downs, but its how they're used that determines whether someone will win or not.

Yes, which is why the tier list only applies at equal skill level in a neutral match up on a totally neutral stage, such as Battleground (final destination is not neutral), with as little luck as possible involved.
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Thenzon » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:09 am UTC

Chuff wrote:Yes, which is why the tier list only applies at equal skill level in a neutral match up on a totally neutral stage, such as Battleground (final destination is not neutral), with as little luck as possible involved.


Which is why I don't generally care about the tier list, cos those kind of matches are boring as bat shit.

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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Chuff » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:39 am UTC

Thenzon wrote:
Chuff wrote:Yes, which is why the tier list only applies at equal skill level in a neutral match up on a totally neutral stage, such as Battleground (final destination is not neutral), with as little luck as possible involved.


Which is why I don't generally care about the tier list, cos those kind of matches are boring as bat shit.

others disagree
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Thenzon » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:46 am UTC

Chuff wrote:
Thenzon wrote:
Chuff wrote:Yes, which is why the tier list only applies at equal skill level in a neutral match up on a totally neutral stage, such as Battleground (final destination is not neutral), with as little luck as possible involved.


Which is why I don't generally care about the tier list, cos those kind of matches are boring as bat shit.

others disagree


That may be the case, but everyone has a personal preference. I prefer matches on stages me and my friends have created, or the more varied stages you get with the game. Sure, a match on final is great every so often, but it quickly gets old. Especially when some people tend to only use 1 character.

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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Chuff » Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:02 am UTC

Thenzon wrote:
Chuff wrote:
Thenzon wrote:
Chuff wrote:Yes, which is why the tier list only applies at equal skill level in a neutral match up on a totally neutral stage, such as Battleground (final destination is not neutral), with as little luck as possible involved.


Which is why I don't generally care about the tier list, cos those kind of matches are boring as bat shit.

others disagree


That may be the case, but everyone has a personal preference. I prefer matches on stages me and my friends have created, or the more varied stages you get with the game. Sure, a match on final is great every so often, but it quickly gets old. Especially when some people tend to only use 1 character.

I didn't say anything was wrong with it, just that others disagree. I vary a lot. I went through a phase in melee of playing with friends all through the night on 1 or 2 stages with the same characters.

Right now, I have 72 custom stages.
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Gelsamel » Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:02 am UTC

I have the most fun playing tourney rules. The mind games are awesome :-)
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Thenzon » Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:56 am UTC

Gelsamel wrote:I have the most fun playing tourney rules. The mind games are awesome :-)


What're the tourney rules you use?

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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Maseiken » Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:10 pm UTC

Gelsamel wrote:I have the most fun playing tourney rules. The mind games are awesome :-)

Particularly of note is the amount of time it can take to select characters, due to the excessive switching that takes place with every selection.
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Gelsamel » Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:23 pm UTC

Maseiken wrote:
Gelsamel wrote:I have the most fun playing tourney rules. The mind games are awesome :-)

Particularly of note is the amount of time it can take to select characters, due to the excessive switching that takes place with every selection.


Heh, I don't worry about using counters much at all really. It's not like I don't play for fun, so it's still very non-serious.

@Tourney Rules: I usually play no items 3stock (sometimes 5stock) on levels with no walkout and no high-luck hazards (basically the stages that are usually allowed).
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Gowerly » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:53 pm UTC

I'm not overly fond of the tier list either. I love Jiggly. I've played her/it since SSB on the 64. It's a shame rest has been nerfed to near uselessness (seriously, you can smash them out of the arena at a couple of percent more), but the air speed and control I find really useful. Lucario is my backup as I've spent a lot of time learning to dodge, so I can usually hold around 120% for a while, allowing for some decent damage.

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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Jebobek » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:48 pm UTC

When it comes to characters I've been choosing random about a month into playing. It tends to lessen the whine from other players about choosing an OP character if I have a good chance of picking something weak. I need to learn to counter Ike's spam attack a bit more on all of the characters, though.

Anyhow, I'm probably going to jump back into Brawl.. how's the internet connection these days? Last time I played several months back it was horrible.
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Gowerly » Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:09 pm UTC

When I play it's usually pretty good. I rarely get any lag at all.

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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Gelsamel » Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:13 pm UTC

Jebobek wrote:When it comes to characters I've been choosing random about a month into playing. It tends to lessen the whine from other players about choosing an OP character if I have a good chance of picking something weak. I need to learn to counter Ike's spam attack a bit more on all of the characters, though.

Anyhow, I'm probably going to jump back into Brawl.. how's the internet connection these days? Last time I played several months back it was horrible.


Er, you shouldn't bother with it, some characters (fast ones, like Marth) get ruined online. Even with little to no lag you might be getting about a frame or two worth of lag which means a lot of Marths move's have a huge increase in lag time. And stuff like Lucario's counter go to shit.
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Jebobek » Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:43 pm UTC

Well all my gameplay does not directly relate to online play; once in a while I play with 1-3 other guys at my place. So in less laggy maps they do get off those cheap moves. The one guy (marth?) with the up+B move is damn annoying and I need to learn to roll away or dodge to avoid.
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Vieto » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:23 pm UTC

I hate Wario-ware with a passion, namely because my sister chooses it... every... single... time...

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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby headprogrammingczar » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:39 pm UTC

Vieto wrote:I hate Wario-ware with a passion, namely because my sister chooses it... every... single... time...I never get the fucking invincibility...

In case you haven't noticed, I like complaining about this game. I like a few of the new levels though; just, most of them are aggravating as hell. I hear if you land on the glow-y strip on the one F-Zero course, you heal a few points of damage. Too bad the hitbox on the rest of the track is so buggy.
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby aion7 » Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:25 am UTC

The rules I play with are no items, five stock, seven or eight minute timer. That's in Melee, as I no longer play Brawl. I just couldn't take the lack of wavedashing, the even worse balance issues, the total BS known as tripping, the messed up jumping, and the magnetic ledges anymore.

There are only three things that I think Brawl did better than Melee: The music, easier shorthopping, and configurable controls.
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Chuff » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:39 am UTC

aion7 wrote:The rules I play with are no items, five stock, seven or eight minute timer. That's in Melee, as I no longer play Brawl. I just couldn't take the lack of wavedashing, the even worse balance issues, the total BS known as tripping, the messed up jumping, and the magnetic ledges anymore.

There are only three things that I think Brawl did better than Melee: The music, easier shorthopping, and configurable controls.

Custom stage creator? That's all I play brawl for.
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Klapaucius » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:44 am UTC

Chuff wrote:
aion7 wrote:The rules I play with are no items, five stock, seven or eight minute timer. That's in Melee, as I no longer play Brawl. I just couldn't take the lack of wavedashing, the even worse balance issues, the total BS known as tripping, the messed up jumping, and the magnetic ledges anymore.

There are only three things that I think Brawl did better than Melee: The music, easier shorthopping, and configurable controls.

Custom stage creator? That's all I play brawl for.
Yes. I love it, and have created over 100 stages.

Imagine how awesome it'll be in the next installment, when it probably won't be so tacked-on and awkward!
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Chuff » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:22 am UTC

Klapaucius wrote:
Chuff wrote:
aion7 wrote:The rules I play with are no items, five stock, seven or eight minute timer. That's in Melee, as I no longer play Brawl. I just couldn't take the lack of wavedashing, the even worse balance issues, the total BS known as tripping, the messed up jumping, and the magnetic ledges anymore.

There are only three things that I think Brawl did better than Melee: The music, easier shorthopping, and configurable controls.

Custom stage creator? That's all I play brawl for.
Yes. I love it, and have created over 100 stages.

Imagine how awesome it'll be in the next installment, when it probably won't be so tacked-on and awkward!

Aw, you beat me. I only have 72. I stopped making them because they're slowing down my wii.
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby WraithXt1 » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:09 am UTC

Anyone up for some Brawl this weekend? Just some friendly matches. I wanted to get an XKCD game day going before but it didnt take off.

I also have a ventrillo server available for communication whilst playing!

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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby aion7 » Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:15 am UTC

Klapaucius wrote:
Chuff wrote:Custom stage creator? That's all I play brawl for.
Yes. I love it, and have created over 100 stages.

Imagine how awesome it'll be in the next installment, when it probably won't be so tacked-on and awkward!

It was a nice idea, but there wasn't enough freedom in it. I hope they make it better in the next one, assuming they decide to keep the feature.


Speaking of the next one, I was talking with a friend of how they could make the next on the best.

I decided it would be like this:
Few characters so it could be at least a little balanced.
Music like in Brawl.
Stages like the original.
Core gameplay like Melee.
Netcode like SSF2THDR.
Online split into to sections: one for stuff like items and one for people who want to play a fair game.
Shorthopping as easy as in Brawl.
A good level creation system.
No real characters that have to be unlocked.
If you only play at one gametype you don't have to go into options, and change the settings every time you play.
General improvement under the philosophy of "it should take skill to win, but be fun for all players, be they skilled or unskilled"
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Gowerly » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:01 pm UTC

WraithXt1 wrote:Anyone up for some Brawl this weekend? Just some friendly matches. I wanted to get an XKCD game day going before but it didnt take off.

I also have a ventrillo server available for communication whilst playing!

I'd be up for this. I'm in the UK, so there might be a touch of lag, but definitely interested. I'm still not great. I like brawl's play, as I was never really a fan of wavedashing. I found it made the characters' differences in speeds irrelevant, pretty much removing an aspect of the game.

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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby superglucose » Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:46 am UTC

Um... Hi, XKCD brawl thread. Name's Professor Snape, I play in the Davis area. Was wondering if any of you fine brawlers went to Drexel University in Philly?

EDIT: Or SUNY Geneseo...
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby WraithXt1 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:03 am UTC

Im online playing now if anyone wants to get some multiplayer in

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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby RetSpline » Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:47 pm UTC

I don't own the game or play often enough, but on Brawl I main as Peach, with a bit of DK thrown in every now and then. I used to play as Zero Suit, but kinda started to dislike her, I'm not sure why. My friends are pretty aggravating to play with- we never play with items (what the hell, what about smash balls?), and almost always on Final Destination or Battlegrounds. They love the technical fighting aspect of the game, while I like the having fun :? .

I played melee for the first time in ages not too long ago, and since I'm playing Peach now, I thought I'd try her. Her moves are the same, but they felt completely different. My friend then showed me that her down-smash can take someone from 0% straight to 80%, which was so absurd I started every match trying to hit people with it.

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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby superglucose » Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:51 pm UTC

Yeah, those are the two big tourney stages, they're only leaving off Smashville.

Personally I don't understand why they dropped Yoshi's Island... it isn't that bad for the Earthbound kids, and anyways they're not particularly good characters. Hell, I'd say that with the annoying platform nuking SHDL and the weird, sloping floor making the chain throw less useful that Yoshi's Island is worse for Falco than the earthbounds. I always picked that as my banned neutral anyways, though, unless I was playing Snake for some reason.

*shrug* people are weird I guess.

Anyways if you want to convince them to play on other stages, see if you can convince them to play on counterpicks as well, stages like Pokemon Stadium, PK Stadium 2, I personally think that Pictochat is a lot of fun.

Me, I use Falco and Snake mostly, so I can't complain about Metaknight players cause I'm just as much of a tier whore. I'm looking for a third character to add so I can take on ROB, the little bugger, but I don't like DeDeDe and after that it looks like my only option is Metaknight, which I'm uncomfortable doing. For teams I use Fox, and for lulz I use Sheik/Zelda, Marth, and ZSS (Marth was my Melee main).
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Vieto » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:38 am UTC

superglucose wrote:and anyways they're not particularly good characters.


What are you talking about? Lucas is an awesome character! his PK thunder and PK fire are better than Ness's, his up-A hold attack is an easy overkill move, and his final smash is devastating in small-moderate sized arenas.

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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby Chuff » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:46 am UTC

Vieto wrote:
superglucose wrote:and anyways they're not particularly good characters.


What are you talking about? Lucas is an awesome character! his PK thunder and PK fire are better than Ness's, his up-A hold attack is an easy overkill move, and his final smash is devastating in small-moderate sized arenas.

Infinite grabbed by a bunch of characters.
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superglucose
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby superglucose » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:21 am UTC

Vieto wrote:
superglucose wrote:and anyways they're not particularly good characters.


What are you talking about? Lucas is an awesome character! his PK thunder and PK fire are better than Ness's, his up-A hold attack is an easy overkill move, and his final smash is devastating in small-moderate sized arenas.

Lucas is better than Ness, for sure, but his PK fire is an 'ok' projectile and doesn't compare to Pit, Falco, Sheik, or anyone else with a chargable projectile (except Samus). PK Thunder is... ok. Not as gimpable as Ness (seriously...), and his usmash, while good, is hard to hit with with its startup lag.

Plus his range is pretty low. His arials are hard hitting but with low range and low priority, and he just generally suffers from high-lag moves (dsmash and usmash for example).
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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby WraithXt1 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:28 am UTC

I always want to play brawl online with you guy but everyones busy arguing about what character is better.

Maybe you should *gasp* play each other!

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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Postby superglucose » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:35 am UTC

Right, sure? Do you live anywhere near Davis, CA?
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