Star Trek: To Infinity and Beyond

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Adacore
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Re: Star Trek: To Infinity and Beyond

Postby Adacore » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:05 am UTC

This only just came out in Korea, so I'm a little late to the party, but I enjoyed the movie a lot.

I took Kirk's captain's log line about his life feeling very "episodic" near the start as a suggestion that the audience should imagine that the three years of their five year mission that have passed roughly correspond to the three seasons of TOS, but in the new timeline. I would imagine that he has earned significantly more respect across the Federation from the stuff he did in that period than simply from the plots of the first two movies.

Also, while DS9 is by far my favourite Star Trek series, I don't think it's what most people imagine when they think of Star Trek. DS9 was a deeper, character-based drama, with the plot far more based on personal interactions and growth than on exploration and 'monster of the week' type episodes. The general view of Star Trek as whole is something between TOS and TNG, I think, and that's what the new movies are playing off.

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Re: Star Trek: To Infinity and Beyond

Postby mosc » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:59 pm UTC

DS9 was much more into politics than any movie can be. Character drama is a fluffier way of putting it but I would say most of DS9 focused on the relationships of major orginizations to each other. The Klingon Empire, the Dominion, the Cardiassians, all of Star-Fleet even smaller political groups like the bajoran government vs it's clergy or more enterprise-ey starfleet vs hands dirty starfleet with integrated outsiders. You even had several characters flipping sides and old divides re-introduced in context of new over-arching divides (like, which side will bajor take in a klingon-cardassian war). It really wasn't much of a character drama beyond a few episodes. Odo and Jake Sisco are the only characters that really went through transformations and neither drove much of the overall plot or the characters around them. The main character plays the roll of the outsider transitioning to the insider over 7 years but that's hardly a very dynamic character journey.

I think the latest movie was pretty close to the ideal mix of action and adventure with star trek-ey-ness. I do wish there was a little bit more sci-fi thought in it but that's an itch that will never be scratched.
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Re: Star Trek: To Infinity and Beyond

Postby rmsgrey » Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:05 pm UTC

mosc wrote:DS9 was much more into politics than any movie can be. Character drama is a fluffier way of putting it but I would say most of DS9 focused on the relationships of major orginizations to each other. The Klingon Empire, the Dominion, the Cardiassians, all of Star-Fleet even smaller political groups like the bajoran government vs it's clergy or more enterprise-ey starfleet vs hands dirty starfleet with integrated outsiders. You even had several characters flipping sides and old divides re-introduced in context of new over-arching divides (like, which side will bajor take in a klingon-cardassian war). It really wasn't much of a character drama beyond a few episodes. Odo and Jake Sisco are the only characters that really went through transformations and neither drove much of the overall plot or the characters around them. The main character plays the roll of the outsider transitioning to the insider over 7 years but that's hardly a very dynamic character journey.

I think the latest movie was pretty close to the ideal mix of action and adventure with star trek-ey-ness. I do wish there was a little bit more sci-fi thought in it but that's an itch that will never be scratched.


DS9 learned a lot from Babylon 5 (or, less charitably, attempted to copy all it could). Long-arcs, heavy political considerations, and some galaxy-shaking twists. Oh, and a space-station parked in front of a wormhole on the frontier allowing exotic aliens to come to them rather than the other way around.

If I had to pick a previous incarnation of Trek that the reboot is aiming to evoke, I'd have to pick the original cast movies - which makes sense, really.

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Re: Star Trek: To Infinity and Beyond

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:57 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:Oh, and a space-station parked in front of a wormhole on the frontier allowing exotic aliens to come to them rather than the other way around.

TOS: Boldly going where no man has gone before0.
(TAS: Boldly drawn where no-one had drawn before.)
TNG: Boldly going where many have gone before1.
DS9: Boldly sitting still where no-one has sat still before2.
Voy: Boldly returning from where no-one3 had been before.
Ent: Boldly doing things for the first time4 that nobody had seen before.
Reboot films: Boldly doing many things done before, but in new and sometimes quite surprising ways.

(Started off with just the bolded line, but looked like it needed completing. Can't say anything about I&B just yet, though.)

0 Green-skinned women are given a pass. Usually by Kirk.
1 But more diplomatically, at least until the Borg happen, and less philanderingly.
2 Events involving Orb Of Time excepted...
3 Man, woman, ethnic minorities, half-aliens, holograms, local aliens, old enemies.
4 Or not, hard to tell with the Time War.

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Re: Star Trek: To Infinity and Beyond

Postby Liri » Sat Oct 01, 2016 2:04 am UTC

Oh right, new Star Trek was shit. I hadn't seen any previews or read any reviews. Probably should have to save myself the agony. If they have to go through a new ship each movie something is very wrong. Was there a plot? I'm not sure. I think there's a distinct difference between campy and cringe-worthy. The actors themselves aren't even that bad, but they were given a pretty crappy screenplay. A motorcycle? There was this nerd sitting next to me at the theater laughing his tush off the whole time. Jeez.

The non-reboot movies definitely have the advantage of established characters and relationships, but we all know who Kirk and Spock are.

My family is on season 7 of DS9 right now (first time through, but they've watched the other series multiple times) (I watched it while I was in uni). It's not really fair to call them part of the same franchise.
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Re: Star Trek: To Infinity and Beyond

Postby mosc » Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:10 pm UTC

Gah, way too much DS9 love.

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Re: Star Trek: To Infinity and Beyond

Postby Chen » Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:56 pm UTC

mosc wrote:Gah, way too much DS9 love.

"THERE. ARE. FOUR. LIGHTS."


While that TNG episode is fantastic, rewatching the whole series is incredibly painful. There are SOOO many bad episodes it's not funny. And not just in the first two seasons (where the majority are bad). The one that sticks in my mind is that episode where Riker is inside some sort of play and he's playing a crazy person. But is also somehow going crazy. Terrible episode.

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Re: Star Trek: To Infinity and Beyond

Postby mosc » Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:13 pm UTC

Plenty of awful DS9 episodes too. TNG is just held to a higher standard. Yesterday's Enterprise, The Inner Light, so many definingly excellent episodes. Q was still cool, the Enterprise was far from a battleship, and science fiction still showed up as relevant from time to time.
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Re: Star Trek: To Infinity and Beyond

Postby Chen » Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:45 pm UTC

mosc wrote:Plenty of awful DS9 episodes too. TNG is just held to a higher standard. Yesterday's Enterprise, The Inner Light, so many definingly excellent episodes. Q was still cool, the Enterprise was far from a battleship, and science fiction still showed up as relevant from time to time.


Rewatching both I found the good:terrible ratio was better on DS9, but yes you are definitely right in that there are some massive stinkers in DS9 too (the one where Quark is pretending to be a woman springs to mind. Or the one where they're stuck in some sort of game).

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Re: Star Trek: To Infinity and Beyond

Postby mosc » Mon Oct 10, 2016 12:30 pm UTC

I guess I agree that DS9 is a better series to binge watch than TNG. However, if you ask me to list the best episodes of any Star Trek series, almost all will be from TNG. There were a couple really spectacular TOS episodes too but I think for the most part the best of Star Trek came from Stuart, Spiner, and the kind of introspective Sci Fi we rarely see anymore.
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Re: Star Trek: To Infinity and Beyond

Postby Chen » Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:42 am UTC

mosc wrote:I guess I agree that DS9 is a better series to binge watch than TNG. However, if you ask me to list the best episodes of any Star Trek series, almost all will be from TNG. There were a couple really spectacular TOS episodes too but I think for the most part the best of Star Trek came from Stuart, Spiner, and the kind of introspective Sci Fi we rarely see anymore.


Yeah I can agree with that. Best episode for best episode TNG edges out DS9 but it's close. If I had to make a top 10 of both series combined I think there'd be some DS9 episodes that made the cut (In the Pale Moonlight, The Visitor), but yeah mostly TNG.

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Re: Star Trek: To Infinity and Beyond

Postby maybeagnostic » Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:42 pm UTC

Finally saw the latest movie recently (nothing like being stuck on a plane for 11 hours to motivate you to take a risk on a movie) and I quite enjoyed it. Better than any of the others in the new continuity for sure even though it still had a few problems- mainly that no one outside the Enteprise's crew seemed to get any attention. Neither Jaylah, nor Krall seemed to have much logic to their actions or enough background to make me care about them.
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Re: Star Trek: To Infinity and Beyond

Postby EdgarJPublius » Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:32 pm UTC

I feel like The movie did some interesting things character-wise. Kirk and Spock questioning their respective places in Starfleet was done well enough as was the Spock/McCoy relationship.

I actually quite liked Jaylah, I felt like her backstory and motivations were very clearly realized despite getting very little exposition, her arc likewise was very clean and direct, if perhaps a bit compressed seeming.

Krall on the other hand was kind of muddy and confusing despite a big expository infodump. His motivations were confusing, and neither his purported motivation nor backstory every seemed to impact the plot at all. It was just exposition for the sake of exposition, and for some reason it was shoved in the middle of the climax without in any way impacting the action.
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Re: Star Trek: To Infinity and Beyond

Postby maybeagnostic » Wed Oct 12, 2016 2:00 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:I actually quite liked Jaylah, I felt like her backstory and motivations were very clearly realized despite getting very little exposition, her arc likewise was very clean and direct, if perhaps a bit compressed seeming.
I don't know, it just didn't click for me.
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Some alien from an unknown species that inexplicably got to the unreachable planet where she discovered the bad guy's unguarded ship, taught herself English and engineering and just really wanted to... err... stay alive? I was a bit surprised when they gave her admission into Starfleet as a reward because she never said she wanted to do that rather than go find her homeworld or something similar. She'd be a good engineer, she just didn't seem to want anything in particular.

Come to think of that, wasn't Krall supposed to have been stranded on that world and turned into some kind of energy vampire out of desperation? How was he stranded if he had a ship in nearly perfect working order that a single Starfleet officer fixed in under half an hour and was then effortlessly piloted back out to a Starfleet base?
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Re: Star Trek: To Infinity and Beyond

Postby Flumble » Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:29 pm UTC

Well that certainly was a rollercoaster of a film. You know, as in: one moment it's great sci-fi, the other it's plain horrible and that continues throughout the film.
For example, I loved the Sabotage scene. It didn't make sense in a Trek film, but it's an epic videoclip for the song. And a little later you (and the characters) see Krall flying through a gravity funnel (shush, it's sci-fi), which is even made visible through glass shards cruising along the path, and Scott explains (while not even being there) over the walkie-talkie that he's flying through a gravity funnel.

Tyndmyr wrote:And certainly, all the conflict revolves around militaristic confrontation. We definitely aren't seeing exploration, etc as a primary theme of the movies themselves. Yeah, both 2 and 3 open with a little clip of non-battle stuff, but both go extremely poorly, and neither are a good example of how being non-militaristic is a successful strategy.

I fear it takes another century to have exploration as a main theme (after all, that's the setting of TNG, DS9 and Voyager). But I sure hope that's 100 years in-universe, not in real life.

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Re: Star Trek: To Infinity and Beyond

Postby Angua » Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:50 am UTC

TOS definitely had exploration as it's main theme.... I feel like there was something that hinted to that, every single time the show came on, quite possibly an iconic part of the opening credits.
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Re: Star Trek: To Infinity and Beyond

Postby Flumble » Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:38 am UTC

That may be so, but the era is polluted with nu-trek violent conflict now.

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Re: Star Trek: To Infinity and Beyond

Postby Lazar » Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:51 pm UTC

Well, the violent conflict approach has been a feature of Trek movies from nearly the beginning. TMP was basically a serviceable double-length episode (it was going to be the pilot for Phase II), and it's generally thought of as a middling and underwhelming effort. What saved the franchise from oblivion was TWoK, which dispensed with high-minded sci-fi in favor of a good old-fashioned nautical revenge yarn. Not only that, but it relied on an asspull premise: Kirk and Khan had parted on good terms in TOS, and the writers had to make up this conceit of, "Oh, while you were away, some planet randomly exploded and my wife died and now I want to kill you!" in order to even have a story. But it was well directed, made good use of Shatner and Montalbán's hammy talents, and incorporated some interesting points about mortality and sacrifice, so it ended up being an awesome movie. From then on, the more conflict-oriented movies have tended to do well (TUC, FC), and the ones that feel more like episodes of the show have done pretty poorly (TFF, INS). With NEM they fell on their face by trying too hard to ape TWoK, but they've been milking that (giant) cow more successfully with the new films. Though with Nero, NuKhan and Krall all following in the footsteps of Shinzon, the franchise does seem to be stuck in a rut with what are essentially villains-of-the-week.

So I would offer that the true Trek exploration film – one that's not villain-centric, one in which they venture out into the cosmos and have to deal with some amazing thing that defies human understanding – has really never been made. It might be awesome, but so far no one has had the guts or opportunity to do it.
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