Black Panther

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Re: Black Panther

Postby Pfhorrest » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:56 pm UTC

On the broader topic of Black Panther's place in the MCU, I've been pleasantly surprised at how well-integrated it's been, when I initially expected it to be some side story that didn't matter all that much to the broader universe. But it seems like they've been dropping hints and building up to this for a long time, which makes it feel a lot more important. We had Cap's shield being made out of "the world's supply" of vibranium early on in The First Avenger, then we first heard of Wakanda and met Klaue in Age of Ultron when Ultron wanted vibranium from him to build his new body, then we met T'Chaka and saw the Black Panther suit for the first time in Civil War, and now with this movie it feels like we're finally seeing an important part of the universe that's been hidden just out of frame the whole time, and not just "oh yeah and there's also an African Atlantis btw".
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Re: Black Panther

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:21 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:Asgard became leaders of the Nine Realms by conquering them. In other words, the Nine Realms might just as well have been called the Asgardian Empire. Of course, Ragnarok doesn't actually tackle that theme at all, since there's no way to make a joke out of it, and Ragnarok is A COMEDY!!! and can't bring itself to engage with anything serious - the death of Odin, introduction of Hela, and Thor's offhand defeat and loss of his trusty hammer is just setup for a dick joke - but the idea is at least raised in the backstory, even if the movie doesn't engage with it.
I know this is the Black Panther thread, so I won't linger on this, but I do want to point out -- the bit where Hela smashes the peaceful murals and exposes the war-mongering images from the past is definitely engaging with themes of colonialism (IE the tendency for colonialism to erase its blood-soaked past and replace it with peace-loving revisionism). There's also the fact that (spoilers)
Spoiler:
...the only way to destroy Hela (who represents the colonial roots of Asgard) is to tear down the edifice built on top of colonialism -- IE, you have to let the demons of its past consume it and build something new. There's a lot of dick jokes, too, and I'm sure you could argue that the movie could stand to do with less of them, but it most certainly engages with colonialism, and even offers a response: Tear it the fuck down and build something better.
Re: Black Panther, I haven't seen this movie yet (work has been intense, dealing with RL junk, brain issues, etc) -- the reviews for it have been overwhelmingly positive, though. Which strikes me as simultaneously wonderful (because seriously we're so overdue for a Marvel movie centered around a brown protagonist, nevermind an actual cast consisting mostly of PoCs, and it's heartening to see it getting lots and lots of positive attention) and also a little concerning -- because it's hard for me to imagine the movie actually being this good?

I've seen a couple of scenes so far, and the CGI immediately reminded me of the 'Star Wars' prequels (where we had entire sets based around CGI with characters just 'floating' in them) -- and that's just not visually appealing to me (I'm thinking specifically of the scene involving T'Challa fighting Killmonger in the train tunnels; that scene's CGI looks early 2000s to me. Admittedly, the other action scene I saw -- a car-chase involving a lady with a spear -- did look pretty fucking badass). I'm also always weirded out by any movie which concerns itself with kings and rightful rule -- and glorifies the idea of a monarch (Lion King is still kind of creepy to me for this reason). Admittedly, that's the source material, and you kind of can't escape from that -- but seriously, how many countries (in Africa or elsewhere) still have kings?

Reading the synopsis, I'm definitely on-board with a villain who is way more complex and memorable than Monster-Of-The-Week #48; having villains who actually have a point -- and challenge the protagonist ethically as well as physically -- is definitely a direction I approve of. I guess I'm just wondering whether the overwhelmingly positive reception of this movie is because it really is just that fantastic, or because it's just "pretty good" + "actually inclusive, and maybe the first Marvel movie that isn't centered almost entirely upon a white male American experience"?

I mean, don't get me wrong; I think that's a huge deal, and I'm A++ in favor of having all the non-white, non-American superhero movies we can. I guess I'm just curious about how this movie will hold up over time.

(I probably should just go see it, but I've been having trouble even leaving the house, recently >_>)

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Re: Black Panther

Postby eSOANEM » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:19 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:but seriously, how many countries (in Africa or elsewhere) still have kings?


Not a huge number. There's the commonwealth (all ruled by the same queen as the UK), Bahrain, Belgium, Bhutan, Brunei. Cambodia, Denmark, Japan, Jordan, Kuwait, Lesotho, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Monaco, Morocco, Netherlands, Norway, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Swaziland, Sweden, Thailand, Tonga, UAE, and slightly less clear cases like the Vatican and Andorra. Of those only Lesotho and Swaziland are in Africa but there're also a decent number of subnational monarchies.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:25 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
Angua wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:Yes, there are bits that are relevant to British history, but the worst excesses of British colonial history center around India, not Africa.
Um, are you for serious right now? They were bad in different ways, but you can't say it was worse than Africa/Caribbean.

Of course, I have come across people in England who believed there were never any slaves here because of the Magna Carta until I pointed out the existence of the Mansfield Judgment in 1772 which had to explicitly say that once a slave sets foot on English soil they become free.

The Middle Passage and machinations enabling it on either side of the Atlantic was an atrocity. To say it was not in the worst excesses of British colonial history is extremely narrowminded.


Evidently my education is lacking. Some quick research suggests that slavery has never been legal in England, but that it wasn't explicit that it was illegal until the mid to late 18th century, and it wasn't outlawed throughout British territory until the early 19th century.

Between the efforts of the British education system, and the British media, I'm more aware of British efforts in stopping the slave trade (establishing Sierra Leone, the Royal Navy going on anti-slavery patrols, etc) than of the previous contributions to the slave trade.

If nothing else, it's not like The Colonies, after ejecting the Brits, said "Right then, let's do slavery"

Like, I'm pretty sure a lot of the anti-slave trade stuff in the 1800s was less "Slavery is bad" and more "Fuck the rebellious assholes in the colonies"

Moving on

Re:M'Baka and the Jabari - and dumbasses.
Spoiler:
The intimidation low hooting is simulatiously amazing and horrifying.

Amazing because it works really, really well on screen and conveys a lot of words with one vocalization.

Horrifying because I live in Kentucky and oh my god I do not want to see what dumbfuck rednecks do with that.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:28 am UTC

It's...alright. I feel a bit left out on this viewpoint, as it seems it's getting rave reviews everywhere around here, and the theaters are packed with people looking to see it, so obviously it's being enjoyed. And it's alright for a first watch. Second was pretty rough, though.

Full spoilery review:
Spoiler:
Maybe a B+ or C- overall. It's still a Marvel films, and not the worst of them(I'd nominate Thor 2 for that dubious position, or maybe the Hulk movie if we're counting that.)....but it's not among the better Marvel films. It was very pretty, and had some great music, but the action really drags mid movie. There are some pretty major plot holes, and ultimately, BP's adversary is just....off. Yes, I get what they're going for thematically as for how it connects to the real world, but in-world, the logic just doesn't work.

Why does the movie literally forget about Civil War happening? I mean, it remembers his dad dying, but it doesn't recall BP claiming kingship there, and Wakanda opening itself to the world? That's....not that long ago, guys.

Why does the supposed military special ops guy use literally no military hardware, hold his pistol sideways, and flinch when it goes off? He doesn't have a military haircut, talk in a military fashion, have connections to any kind of unit...it ultimately just doesn't make sense. Also, for not having ever been to Wakanda, he knows waaaay too much about their internal politics.

Why do they leave the kid behind anyways? Dad says he "chose Wakanda" and "had to preserve the lie", but dudes, you are flying a spaceship over LA with the lights on, while leaving very distinctive corpses just laying about, you are not preserving any kind of lie. Maybe take the kid with you rather than just leaving him there. You're telling me that all the rest of that was fine, but one kid going missing would have blown Wakanda's cover? Cmon.

Ya'll do not interfere with other nations. Not your way to conduct war on them. You also claim to have a group of "war dogs" in every country, and to have spies prepositioned, who are capable of taking down every country in the world. That's...odd. If you've got an isolationist, peaceful culture, cool. But this ain't selling it.

Wakanda is really small, as seen on TV. Seriously, one guy is undercover operative, high duel conductor/priest, royal advisor, and gardener. Zaka, I believe his name was. There's...a lot of this. The only doctor around is also the sole weapons designer, overseer of mining and transportation, and pilot. Look, it's a whole nation here, guys. There appears to basically only be one or two of anything in the country, from the all essential flower garden, to the unique ships driven by each of the four tribal leaders.

Why do you have the rich people living in skyscrapers, and the rest of the place in mud huts? This is like portraying rural US as living in pioneer log cabins. Is Wakanda supposed to be some highly classist dystopia? The city looks cool on first shot, but ultimately, the only scene in the city is the basket shop, and the mine/weapons depot/tech lab/hospital/railway/airport is...a single building way outside town. The throne room appears to be in both places, going by cutting, but this may just be omitting travel time. I'm not sure why it's like this. The city also does not seem real. Everything's supposedly a mix of old and new, which fair, that's a cool aesthetic, but you gotta age the props. If every old-style prop is obviously brand new, it doesn't look lived in. Contrast with the Korea scenes, which have a similar old/new vibe, and it feels far more real. Unsurprisingly, the Korea sequence is by far the best in the film.

There's literally no suspense in the final fight scene. You foreshadowed hard about the plot device to finally win, but that's forgiveable. What's dumb is pitting the guy with bullet/knife proof armor against a bunch of guys with knives. There was literally no way they could hurt him. And the pilot, chasing the robot planes with another robot plane is...okay, the movie tries to make you concerned when his plane stops working...but he's not in it. And the "almost to the border" means nothing. Regardless of if you shoot down the planes or not, whoever has the throne controls if weapons are used. So, this whole bit doesn't even matter.

On a lighter note, the horrible "sneakers" line just gets better the second time around, because you can see T'Challa's look of resignation. Really sells the brother/sister relationship more than anything else.

Also, Winston Duke steals the show whenever he has a scene. Absolutely my favorite character in the whole film.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:10 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:complaints about mud huts
Have you considered that some of them might enjoy living or spending time in (things that looked from the outside like) huts? Many rich Americans seem to have a fetish for impractically tiny houses, after all.

rmsgrey wrote:stuff about education
I mean, a woefully ignorant white American might think the story was irrelevant to this country, too, but that's not really the movie's fault?
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:20 am UTC

Speaking of the depiction of Wakandan life, one thing this movie left me wondering is exactly how big the country as a whole is. Is seems like they have this one high-tech supercity under a holographic mountain, surrounded by an indeterminate amount of rural savannah. Is Wakanda basically a city-state with a big dry lawn outside the invisible walls? How big is that lawn exactly? Does anybody live out there? Who, and why, when there's super techno utopia available in the city?
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Zohar » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:46 am UTC

I assumed they were basically paid actors.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:03 am UTC

On the map from Captain America; Civil War (which I saw on Netflix over the weekend because I was bored and didn't know it had Black Panther in it), Wakanda appeared to be a county half the size of Uganda. As a relatively lush and humid climate combined with the high tech, I'd assume a population density maybe close to another lush climate such as Vietnam, which incidentally is double Uganda's, so basically about 40 million people like Uganda. For reference, this puts it in the same ballpark as Spain in terms of population, somewhat more than Canada, much more than Greece, and half of Germany.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:08 am UTC

Does your population density account for how the only high tech seems to be all hidden under one mountain?
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Re: Black Panther

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:17 am UTC

To quote MST3k: It's just a show, I should really just relax.

I was also under the impression that people still lived in the more rural areas that weren't shown. It's not like movies taking place in NYC will show the more "townsie" areas of the Bronx, or movies taking place in Nebraska ever showing anything other than corn fields, or movies taking place in France showing anything other than the parts of Paris that have a view of the Eiffel Tower.


But what should REALLY be an issue is that the pretending "impoverished" people only look like Hollywood impoverished; the people are noticeably healthy for an ostensibly dirt-poor nation, perhaps a bit thin, but not suffering from obvious vitamin deficiencies and horrible parasites that anthropologists across the globe would've noticed. Again, it's just a show...

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Re: Black Panther

Postby EdgarJPublius » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:13 am UTC

My impression was that Wakanda just didn't let outsiders in, even to the rural parts, except possibly in rare, controlled circumstances. If that's the case, then the disguise wouldn't have to bear much close scrutiny.
Their immediate neighbors probably have some idea that there's something weird going on in Wakanda, but aren't quite sure what, and to outsiders it probably just sounds like superstitious nonsense.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:34 pm UTC

Its neighbors are Zamunda from Coming to America and The Pride Lands from Lion King, the only other decent American films about an African Prince, both ruled by James Earl Jones. I don't think people are going to be paying too much attention to Wakanda when there are talking lions. /joke


But now that I think about it, they all share major pieces of their story with at least one other.

African prince: All
Film was huge box office success: All
Take place mostly in africa: BP, LK
Big cat has to fight bigger badder cat: BP, LK
Live action: BP, CTA
Main character played by actual black guy: BP, CTA
Based on a comic book: BP, LK but they will never admit it
King played by James Earl Jones: LK, CTA
King murdered: LK, BP

And I'm done with my morning stretching :p

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Re: Black Panther

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:28 am UTC

Another thing or two that I feel like this movie leaves unanswered, both having to do with missing women:

Spoiler:
Who and where was Killmonger's mom? They said his dad fell in love with a woman in America and they had a kid (Killmonger) together, and then they killed his dad and left him there "alone". What, was Mom already dead at that point?

And who was that woman that adult Killmonger was working with, whom Klaue referred to as the Bonnie to his Clyde, that just disappeared out of the story with no resolution once Killmonger set off for Wakanda?
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Re: Black Panther

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:32 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
Another thing or two that I feel like this movie leaves unanswered, both having to do with missing women:

Spoiler:
Who and where was Killmonger's mom? They said his dad fell in love with a woman in America and they had a kid (Killmonger) together, and then they killed his dad and left him there "alone". What, was Mom already dead at that point?

And who was that woman that adult Killmonger was working with, whom Klaue referred to as the Bonnie to his Clyde, that just disappeared out of the story with no resolution once Killmonger set off for Wakanda?

I don't know about his mother, but as for his partner
Spoiler:
Didn't he shoot through her to get Klaue?
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Weeks » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:35 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Another thing or two that I feel like this movie leaves unanswered, both having to do with missing women:

Spoiler:
Who and where was Killmonger's mom? They said his dad fell in love with a woman in America and they had a kid (Killmonger) together, and then they killed his dad and left him there "alone". What, was Mom already dead at that point?

And who was that woman that adult Killmonger was working with, whom Klaue referred to as the Bonnie to his Clyde, that just disappeared out of the story with no resolution once Killmonger set off for Wakanda?
Spoiler:
He killed "Bonnie" when Klaue briefly held her hostage in the fight before Killmonger left on the plane for Wakanda.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:50 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:complaints about mud huts
Have you considered that some of them might enjoy living or spending time in (things that looked from the outside like) huts? Many rich Americans seem to have a fetish for impractically tiny houses, after all.


Those are pretty niche in america, and not generally the forte of the rich, who, by and large, tend to enjoy much more spacious housing than those less fortunate.

I'll grant that different social preferences are possible, but it's not suggested by the movie itself, and leadership generally seems to prefer traditionally grand, imposing structures, so...I think it remains a bit of an oddity.


gmalivuk wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:
Another thing or two that I feel like this movie leaves unanswered, both having to do with missing women:

Spoiler:
Who and where was Killmonger's mom? They said his dad fell in love with a woman in America and they had a kid (Killmonger) together, and then they killed his dad and left him there "alone". What, was Mom already dead at that point?

And who was that woman that adult Killmonger was working with, whom Klaue referred to as the Bonnie to his Clyde, that just disappeared out of the story with no resolution once Killmonger set off for Wakanda?

I don't know about his mother, but as for his partner
Spoiler:
Didn't he shoot through her to get Klaue?


Spoiler:
He did indeed. So, not a plot hole, but I do rather wish we'd seen more of her character and their relationship. A bonnie and clyde villain duo could have been fun. I'm not even adverse to him sacrificing her for his goals, eventually, but we don't see a lot of her, and it doesn't seem to bother him much, so it doesn't come across as much of a sacrifice.


CorruptUser wrote:But what should REALLY be an issue is that the pretending "impoverished" people only look like Hollywood impoverished; the people are noticeably healthy for an ostensibly dirt-poor nation, perhaps a bit thin, but not suffering from obvious vitamin deficiencies and horrible parasites that anthropologists across the globe would've noticed. Again, it's just a show...


I'll actually give 'em a pass on that, much as I enjoy calling out plot holes. In addition to the standard everyone looking fairly good on average in movies, it seems reasonably believable that many countries don't spend a lot of time investigating a country neither requesting help, nor with anything to offer them. In either the case of someone looking for gains or looking to help, many other options appear more demanding. For a comic book explanation, it's probably about as good as it's likely to get for a hidden country. "nobody found it yet" is increasingly hard to justify in the modern day, despite it being common in older comics.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:14 am UTC

I know the tiny house thing is pretty specific to Americans in the real world, but it suggests that in the fictional world of the MCU it's maybe not as unreasonable as people think for some Wakandans to actively prefer the "simple life" as long as they have a choice.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:47 pm UTC

Slavery stuff is split. Not sure where that thread will end up.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby natraj » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:53 pm UTC

the entire question of why are some people living in huts and the "rich people" living in skyscrapers / is wakanda a highly classist dystopia strikes me as an incredibly capitalist/western-centric point of view to be looking at things from.

like, sure, if you assume that collecting money and material goods is everyone's primary goal in life, than the people living in the city w/All The Stuff are doing better and the people living in the small huts in the country are doing worse, but that's such a very western-centric way to look at things and many other cultures just... don't. at all. consider that. a country untouched by colonization we have no reason to assume would have these same values.

because the focus of the plot is not on showing us an in-depth look at wakanda's society and culture we don't actually know in great detail what their way of life is like -- in the comics they have free universal education (up through higher ed), universal housing, universal health care for all; we don't know for a fact that the movie is the same but it's pretty safe to assume that they have a pretty decent social safety net/quality of life for Your Average Wakandan -- the comics writer was an advisor for the film but anyway also based on the exchange they have about refugees & how that would change Their Way Of Life, that's a pretty blatant & direct callout to the same conversations that happen in Real Life when people are always like "but if we allow immigrants they'll take our social services & then Real Citizens won't have them" & given this was in fact an american-made movie written by americans it is probably a safe bet to assume the writers can figure their audience is smart enough to infer that wakandans have a decent social net that w'kabi was fretting about Being Threatened By Refugees.

it's a poverty of thought on your part, not the world itself, to automatically presume that people living in mud huts are poorer or societally left behind -- plenty of other cultures literally just don't have the same values re: accumulating Lots Of Stuff as some kind of signifier of who is doing better. if people in wakanda don't need to worry about stuff like how to get their basic needs taken care of because they are living in a post-scarcity society, then it's equally possible that some people live in skyscrapers in the city and some people live in huts because that's... where everyone wants to live. if you like the city lifestyle, live there. if you choose to have a profession where it makes sense to live in the city, live there. if your tribe & your people are out in the borderlands or you want to raise rhinos, live in the country. if you're living in a resource-and-technology rich utopia that takes actual care of its people, you probably can live in a mud hut pretty stress-free, because it isn't a sign of "poverty" at all, it's just where you live and if you get sick or injured you have the exact same access to care as people living anywhere else since they have nifty spaceships that can zip you off to the hospital (which there's undoubtedly more than one of it's frankly nonsensical that people assume that a movie centered around one family that shows shuri's lab a lot means that she is the kingdom's sole doctor, like, she runs some kind of r&d unit for the kingdom and develops new technology. probably some of which makes it into whatever... other medical units actually exist.)
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Re: Black Panther

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:30 pm UTC

Nope, that's the only medical center in all of Wakanda. Just like Q is the only person in the (Bond-verse) United Kingdom who makes gadgets and according to DC comics the only bats in the United States live in Bruce Wayne's cave, because we never see any other bats anywhere else.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:14 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Nope, that's the only medical center in all of Wakanda. Just like Q is the only person in the (Bond-verse) United Kingdom who makes gadgets and according to DC comics the only bats in the United States live in Bruce Wayne's cave, because we never see any other bats anywhere else.

I'm quite sure I've seen bats in other parts of the DC-verse US that weren't owned by Bruce "my only superpower is money" Wayne. As for the Bond-verse, didn't other British villains have gadget-guys? Quite sure there was a British villain who had a gadget-guy or gadget-girl.

But yes, I understand what you are trying to say.

Also, all of NY is only the 1000 or so extras you see. Everywhere else? Ghost town.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby Jorpho » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:17 am UTC

I too find this movie to be rather standard fare and unworthy of the overwhelming praise (and dollars) heaped upon it. I'll admit the aesthetic is kind of nice.

Maybe it's some kind of generational thing? Maybe current standards have just fallen too hard? It falls right into place alongside all sorts of adolescent fare from the last thirty years.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:37 pm UTC

Or maybe you're so used to having movies targeted directly to your demographic that you can't understand what a relief this movie is to the millions of people who aren't.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Jorpho » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:17 pm UTC

Yes, that is the common refrain shouted from every corner of the Internet. The inevitable response is "What about Blade?" Or the various other films featuring Wesley Snipes, Samuel L. Jackson, Eddie Murphy, and so on. I might also note that the praise for this film is much too effusive to suggest that it originates entirely from any particular demographic. (To which the response would in turn be, "But you can't understaaaaand", something something identity politics something.)

I am reminded slightly of some Canadian films marketed along the lines of, "Holy cow, you should go see this, it's Canadian!" despite being rather middling otherwise. But of course to go down that path is to invite accusations of comparing being Canadian to being part of a demographic that has been systematically oppressed for generations etc, so let's just not go there.

It was only two years ago that people were talking about Ghostbusters as the Most! Important! Movie! because it featured women in prominent roles – or maybe no one was actually talking about it that way, and that's just what the marketers wanted people to believe. I expect two years from now that Black Panther will only be slightly less forgotten.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby SecondTalon » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:34 pm UTC

Yeah, remind me again how many American blockbusters with an almost entirely black cast even exist?

Or how many American films with an almost entirely black cast being aimed at the general moviegoing public exist?
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Re: Black Panther

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:44 am UTC

Jorpho wrote:
It was only two years ago that people were talking about Ghostbusters as the Most! Important! Movie! because it featured women in prominent roles – or maybe no one was actually talking about it that way, and that's just what the marketers wanted people to believe. I expect two years from now that Black Panther will only be slightly less forgotten.
Yeah, I'm sure a movie that's already made half a billion dollars in the US alone after just 17 days will be as quickly forgotten as a movie that made less worldwide over two years than Black Panther made domestically in its first weekend.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Jorpho » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:49 am UTC

Didn't Avatar make heaps of money before being largely forgotten (except for being a movie that made heaps of money) ?

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Re: Black Panther

Postby Weeks » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:30 am UTC

Jorpho wrote:I too find this movie to be rather standard fare and unworthy of the overwhelming praise (and dollars) heaped upon it. I'll admit the aesthetic is kind of nice.
Image

Jorpho wrote:Yes, that is the common refrain shouted from every corner of the Internet. The inevitable response is "What about Blade?" Or the various other films featuring Wesley Snipes, Samuel L. Jackson, Eddie Murphy, and so on.
Image

Jorpho wrote:It was only two years ago that people were talking about Ghostbusters as the Most! Important! Movie! because it featured women in prominent roles – or maybe no one was actually talking about it that way, and that's just what the marketers wanted people to believe. I expect two years from now that Black Panther will only be slightly less forgotten.
Image

Jorpho wrote:Didn't Avatar make heaps of money before being largely forgotten (except for being a movie that made heaps of money) ?
Image
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Pfhorrest » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:34 am UTC

So, have you guys heard about how some of the alt-right are claiming Black Panther as vindication of their views, because (to paraphrase them) Wakanda is totally an isolationist ethnostate exactly like Trump wants to make America, except it's horrible when Trump does it but when fictional black people do it it's awesome according to far-left ess jay double-yoos?
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Weeks » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:48 am UTC

Not that I expect, well, anything from Nazis, but that's wrong because the movie itself has the message of "being isolationist isn't that great, after all"
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Jorpho » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:45 am UTC

The subtle nuance of your post of animated GIFs is lost on me. Are you suggesting Avatar hasn't been largely forgotten?

Yes, Disney did get around to putting something up in Disney World, and there is supposedly a sequel coming in the distant future, but is it not famous for having left no lasting impression despite its tremendous earnings? Possibly because it wasn't actually very good?
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Re: Black Panther

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:08 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Yeah, remind me again how many American blockbusters with an almost entirely black cast even exist?

Or how many American films with an almost entirely black cast being aimed at the general moviegoing public exist?


Coming to America, the other film about an African prince that isn't a cartoon lion.
Blankman, maybe a few other Wayans movies
Those old 90's movies starring Kid 'n Play (House Party, Class Act)
Fresh Prince and The Jeffersons, if we include tv shows

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Re: Black Panther

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:43 am UTC

Jorpho wrote:Didn't Avatar make heaps of money before being largely forgotten (except for being a movie that made heaps of money) ?

"I didn't like this movie and I refuse to try to understand why it's unique and important to other people. Therefore I conclude that everyone will forget about it in a few years."

That "reasoning" is why Weeks was making fun of you.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Jorpho » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:25 am UTC

Yes, putting words in other people's mouths often yields hilarious results.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:28 am UTC

Jorpho wrote:I don't understand how paraphrasing works.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Weeks » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:36 am UTC

Jorpho wrote:Blorp!
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Re: Black Panther

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:36 pm UTC

Like, if you're drawing your conclusion from something besides the fact that you, personally, didn't enjoy the movie, please let us know what that other evidence is.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:36 pm UTC

The only real problem with BP was that the plot of "hero fights villain with same powers" is starting to get a bit stale.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby Jorpho » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:40 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Like, if you're drawing your conclusion from something besides the fact that you, personally, didn't enjoy the movie, please let us know what that other evidence is.


Shall we back this up a bit?

I said,
I too find this movie to be rather standard fare and unworthy of the overwhelming praise (and dollars) heaped upon it.


You said,
Or maybe you're so used to having movies targeted directly to your demographic that you can't understand what a relief this movie is to the millions of people who aren't.
Perhaps I am mistaken, but you imply that one whose demographic is commonly targeted by films is incapable of comprehending the significance of this movie. You further imply that its box-office success may be largely attributable to not targeting said demographic. Is there evidence of that? Is this unprecedented box office success due in significant part to its success in a segment of the population that does not otherwise go to movies?


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