Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby The Utilitarian » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:16 am UTC

Vanguard wrote:Danko is hardly an innocent bystander. And he was wielding a gun.
Though, banker guy, maybe...

To be fair, he did try to kill water chick, and she just walked into the room.

Nath wrote:Didn't seem like much of a stretch. If some guy is running around stabbing innocent bystanders, it's a fair bet that he's one of the bad guys. If he's so desperate to get his hands on the McGuffin, it's a fair bet that he wants it for some Evil Nefarious Plan. HRG being in the business of stopping Evil Nefarious Plans, it stands to reason that he'd want to hang on to the McGuffin and try to figure out what the fuss is all about.

I'm not going to deny that Darth Maul on Speed clearly defines himself as a bad guy. But even if he IS a bad guy, Noah just decides to spit in his eye and keep him from the McGuffin. In order to accept Noah's actions we basically have to follow this line of reasoning

1.) Persons who kill to achieve their goals are evil
2.) Speed Guy kills to achieve his goals
3.) Thus, Speed Guy is evil
4.) Evil persons only want things for Neferious Plans
5.) Speed Guy wanted the McGuffin
6.) Thus Speed Guy wanted the McGuffin for a Nerferious Plan
7.) Good Guys risk their lives to stop Neferious Plans
8.) Noah is a Good Guy
9.) Thus, Noah will risk his life to stop a Neferious Plan
10.) Therefore, Noah will risk his life to prevent Speed Guy from getting the McGuffin

The big problem with this arguement lies in sub-arguement premise 4 and the following premise 6. It seems silly that Noah, a well informed individual would be so naive as to assume that an evil person could only want something as the linch-pin to a neferious plan. Maybe it has sentimental value? Maybe it has monetary value? Killing to achieve your goals might make you a bad guy, but being a bad guy doesn't mean that all your goals are world shattering plans of neferious evil which must be stopped at all cost.
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Torvaun » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:22 am UTC

First, it's not like Noah has shied away from killing for goals. But, you did miss something. Danko, a man who had made it his job to hunt powered individuals, decided that whatever this compass is is important enough to A) steal, and B) swallow the key to. That Noah, another man hunting these individuals (though in more a catch and release fashion), would just give it up is stupid.
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby thatguy » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:27 am UTC

Overall, I liked the season. The powers took a bit of a backseat, which is nice. As long as we avoid the now traditional Heroes "This is What Happened When You Weren't Looking" and "Back to the Future" episodes, it'll be better than last season.

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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby The Utilitarian » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:43 am UTC

Torvaun wrote:First, it's not like Noah has shied away from killing for goals. But, you did miss something. Danko, a man who had made it his job to hunt powered individuals, decided that whatever this compass is is important enough to A) steal, and B) swallow the key to. That Noah, another man hunting these individuals (though in more a catch and release fashion), would just give it up is stupid.

So, Danko, a man who's goals and methods Noah generally opposes (at this point in time), wants to keep this item from someone. If Noah opposes Danko's goals and methods would it not logically follow that he should want this person to have the item in question, since Danko was determined to keep it from him?

*edit* Actually, pointing out that Noah is willing to kill to achieve his goals only strengthens my arguement that his actions make no sense. If he sees that sometimes you must be willing to kill to achieve non-evil goals, why would he assume that just because Speed Guy is willing to kill to achieve his goals, that those goals are evil?
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Aikanaro » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:31 am UTC

Oh, I forgot to mention: Is anyone joydancing over the COMPLETE lack of Mohinder so far? :P
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby The Utilitarian » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:37 am UTC

Aikanaro wrote:Oh, I forgot to mention: Is anyone joydancing over the COMPLETE lack of Mohinder so far? :P

While I certainly didn't have any love for his character I'm actually finding the absense a little jarring. Feels like his absense is a bit of an elephant in the room. Especially with the handwave reference to him on Peter's part talking about his power. It's like "ok, people didn't like Mohinder, so we'll take him out, but we don't want people to think we've just deleted him from the show (which we have), so we'll drop his name just to point out that we awknowledge that he still exists."
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby sugarhyped » Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:56 am UTC

The Utilitarian wrote:*edit* Actually, pointing out that Noah is willing to kill to achieve his goals only strengthens my arguement that his actions make no sense. If he sees that sometimes you must be willing to kill to achieve non-evil goals, why would he assume that just because Speed Guy is willing to kill to achieve his goals, that those goals are evil?


You don't know that was Noah's thought process. I think he just knows that this is important and he wants to understand it.
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby The Utilitarian » Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:06 am UTC

sugarhyped wrote:You don't know that was Noah's thought process. I think he just knows that this is important and he wants to understand it.

Well that's exactly what I'm saying, is that it feels to me like his actions have been fueled not by any kind of thought process that a person would make but by a single minded determination to advance the show's plot.

Ultimately all I'm saying is that his motives have not be adequetly explained to justify repeatedly putting himself in such extreme danger.
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Nath » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:05 am UTC

So you're saying that Noah would have to be absolutely certain that there was an Evil Nefarious Plan underway before investigating the compass? That makes no sense; you follow likely leads, not just certain leads.

Even if Darth Maul just wanted the compass for sentimental reasons, there was still good reason to keep the compass. He was running around killing innocent people, so stopping him (or at least finding out what was going on) was Noah's business. And the compass was the one clue he had, and the one thing he could have used as bait.

Besides, Danko and Noah weren't really on opposite ends of the spectrum. Their goals were not that different (getting the powered people under control); they disagreed mostly about methods. The fact that Danko wanted something doesn't necessarily imply that Noah should have wanted the opposite.

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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Dhes » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:00 am UTC

Well that was an interesting start to the season. I think the old guy at the carnival is like Hiro, but I think he can move everyone (the carnival) through time and space.
The 4 math problems are easy, it answer is 1 for every unknown. (Unless I’m wrong :oops: )

Code: Select all

 
x + 2y + 3w + 4z = 10
1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10

2x – y + w – z = 1
2 – 1 + 1 – 1 = 1

3x + y + 4w + 3z = 11
3 + 1 + 4 + 3 = 11

-2x + 6y +4w + 10z = 18
-2 + 6 + 4 + 10 = 18
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Vanguard » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:37 pm UTC

Aikanaro wrote:Oh, I forgot to mention: Is anyone joydancing over the COMPLETE lack of Mohinder so far? :P


They calmed him down so he's not as annoyingly stupid.
But good to see Mohindrance take a small leave.
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Nath » Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:00 pm UTC

Dhes wrote:Well that was an interesting start to the season. I think the old guy at the carnival is like Hiro, but I think he can move everyone (the carnival) through time and space.
The 4 math problems are easy, it answer is 1 for every unknown. (Unless I’m wrong :oops: )

That's one solution; there are an infinite number of solutions, I believe. Notice that equation 3 is the sum of the first two, and equation 4 is twice the first minus twice the second. This means there are only two independent equations, and four variables. You can set the values of two variables arbitrarily, and solve for the other two.

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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Aikanaro » Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:59 pm UTC

Dhes wrote:Well that was an interesting start to the season. I think the old guy at the carnival is like Hiro, but I think he can move everyone (the carnival) through time and space.

Yeah, that'd certainly explain the presence of a carnival of ENGLISH-SPEAKING EUROPEANS (going based on accent to assume they're not American) who just HAPPENED to be in JAPAN......

EDIT: Logic kicked in again, d'oh. Does anyone know for a fact if it's the same carnival both times, or if it's two different ones?
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Vanguard » Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:16 pm UTC

I vote the fact that it's two different ones.
But I don't know.
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby pseudoidiot » Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:17 pm UTC

I think someone said something to the effect of "he was here 14 years ago." I'm not for certain, though.
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby mosc » Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:30 pm UTC

Dhes wrote:Well that was an interesting start to the season. I think the old guy at the carnival is like Hiro, but I think he can move everyone (the carnival) through time and space.
The 4 math problems are easy, it answer is 1 for every unknown. (Unless I’m wrong :oops: )

Code: Select all

 
x + 2y + 3w + 4z = 10
1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10

2x – y + w – z = 1
2 – 1 + 1 – 1 = 1

3x + y + 4w + 3z = 11
3 + 1 + 4 + 3 = 11

-2x + 6y +4w + 10z = 18
-2 + 6 + 4 + 10 = 18

Which of course is four equations with four unknowns and probably falls into Algebra 1 or 2, not Linear Algebra. I commented on this as well and my wife told me I was "such a fucking nerd".
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby headprogrammingczar » Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:53 pm UTC

Strictly speaking, it is a system of linear equations, which you solve with algebra. The course prefix was above that of calculus though, so my guess is the writers fell into their usual trope of "the audience is an idiot".
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Aikanaro » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Okay, I swear, this show is going to give me an anneurism....

Now, presumably we all know that the REAL reason Peter is avoiding his brother is a plot device to keep him away from Sylar/Nathan, so that he doesn't figure out the truth (possibly through copying his power).

But here's the thing....Peter presumably grabbed Mohinder's power because he figured it'd be the most helpful one for his job that he currently had access to. Shouldn't he have gone for FLIGHT much earlier, instead? Maybe just visit his brother just long enough to gank it, then leave? Obviously this has been avoided for plot complications, but blegh.
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby SlyReaper » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:12 pm UTC

Aikanaro wrote:Okay, I swear, this show is going to give me an anneurism....

Now, presumably we all know that the REAL reason Peter is avoiding his brother is a plot device to keep him away from Sylar/Nathan, so that he doesn't figure out the truth (possibly through copying his power).

But here's the thing....Peter presumably grabbed Mohinder's power because he figured it'd be the most helpful one for his job that he currently had access to. Shouldn't he have gone for FLIGHT much earlier, instead? Maybe just visit his brother just long enough to gank it, then leave? Obviously this has been avoided for plot complications, but blegh.


Except, I don't think Sylar ever picked up flight, did he? So Nylar won't have flight either.
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Aikanaro » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:36 pm UTC

Exactly my point. Here's what logic would dictate SHOULD happen, except it short-circuits their plot:

1: Peter decides to get just try and use A power to do his job really, really well and save lives.
2: He looks at all his available friends and their respective powers, and decides which one would help him most in getting to people quickly to save them.
3: He decides strength flight is obviously the best way to TRAVEL quickly, so he goes to Nathan Nylar to get it.
4: Nathan Nylar, being thinking he's Peter's brother, of course gladly lets him borrow his power (which he THINKS is flight, and he just about never uses it so he wouldn't have noticed it being gone), especially in the pursuit of good.

5: Peter tries to gank Flight, gets something else, and both he and Nylar proceed to go WTF, and try to figure out what the hell is going on, thus sidestepping a neat 5 episodes worth of plot-fluff.
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Vieto » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:45 am UTC

Aikanaro wrote:
Dhes wrote:Well that was an interesting start to the season. I think the old guy at the carnival is like Hiro, but I think he can move everyone (the carnival) through time and space.

Yeah, that'd certainly explain the presence of a carnival of ENGLISH-SPEAKING EUROPEANS (going based on accent to assume they're not American) who just HAPPENED to be in JAPAN......

EDIT: Logic kicked in again, d'oh. Does anyone know for a fact if it's the same carnival both times, or if it's two different ones?


Personally, I think that the psychic who gives Hiro his fortune is the same person who interpreted the ink (or simply predicted something, and used the ink to show a face or picture), and possibly told the Terrakinesis/ink guy that Hiro was going to the carnival (14-15 years ago) and that he would be important to their plan, by changing a small part of the past again, using a combination of precognition and Hiro's powers...

not sure what the Holy Macguffin has to do with anything. Maybe it's their way to find new recruits?

edit: also, doesn't Peter already know that Nathan is Nylar?

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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Aikanaro » Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:32 am UTC

Vieto wrote:edit: also, doesn't Peter already know that Nathan is Nylar?

According to Heroeswiki.com, nope, he doesn't know. And even then, it's debatable what would have been more useful for getting around: Super Strength (with agility), or Telekinesis (since it can be self-applied).
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Lumpy » Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:33 am UTC

I think flight might be worse than superspeed for Peter's job because he'd have to deal with running far enough for no one to see him take off first.

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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Aikanaro » Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:41 am UTC

No, no, we're going off the assumption of before all that happened. Remember, he's apparently been operating with Strength for a while now, instead of going for (what he thinks would be) flight. Obviously once Speed becomes an option, it's better, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to opt for Strength over Flight if your biggest concern is getting to emergencies quickly.
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Vieto » Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:45 am UTC

Aikanaro wrote:No, no, we're going off the assumption of before all that happened. Remember, he's apparently been operating with Strength for a while now, instead of going for (what he thinks would be) flight. Obviously once Speed becomes an option, it's better, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to opt for Strength over Flight if your biggest concern is getting to emergencies quickly.


Soooo, how is he going to rip open doors off of cars now? I think car doors are knife-resistant

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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Aikanaro » Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:47 am UTC

Given that paramedics are called in for more than just car wrecks, and that that was just a case example of something else to do with his Strength, how often do you REALLY think that'll be more helpful than Flight for his job? That was just Peter having a LookitMeI'mAwesome moment :P
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby mosc » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:47 am UTC

I like peter. The rest of the cast can burn in hell for all I care. It's time we embraced what made the show good. Make peter a god and let us cheer for superman you pansy ass excuses for writers!
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Vieto » Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:53 am UTC

mosc wrote:I like peter. The rest of the cast can burn in hell for all I care. It's time we embraced what made the show good. Make peter a god and let us cheer for superman you pansy ass excuses for writers!


What about Micah?

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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Aikanaro » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:03 pm UTC

More importantly, what about Monica? So far, she's the only character who has combined the traits of being Good, Powerful, and Not A Complete Moron.
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Chen » Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:56 pm UTC

Aikanaro wrote:More importantly, what about Monica? So far, she's the only character who has combined the traits of being Good, Powerful, and Not A Complete Moron.


Eh the running into the house full of criminals and consequently almost being burned alive was a fairly moronic move I'd say. While she had some intelligence I think it was more lack of screen time that didn't let us see she would be just as useless with her powers as everyone else...though that might just be the cynic in me talking.

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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Vieto » Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:35 pm UTC

Aikanaro wrote:More importantly, what about Monica? So far, she's the only character who has combined the traits of being Good, Powerful, and Not A Complete Moron.


she died in a plane crash in the comics.

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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby mosc » Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:36 pm UTC

Monica? Season 2? That's pre nerf. Heros wants you to ignore everything that happened before time travel became cliche.
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby The Utilitarian » Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:53 am UTC

So, something occured to me.

According to Ms Patrelli, Nylar's been using Sylar's "Object Reading" powers automatically to fill in the gaps in his memory and maintain the illusion that he's Nathan. So, this would seem to suggest that "passive" powers like the object reading work automatically for Nylar.

So then... what happned to Sylar's "Lie Detection" power? That seemed to be an "always on" option that just worked passively. Shouldn't Nylar be detecting, y'know, the constant stream of lies that his mother has been feeding him since the transformation?

On the subject of the object reading powers... shouldn't he have read the history of Sylar's clothes the instant he woke up? I might be missing something there.

*edit, spelling*
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Uber_Apple » Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:31 am UTC

The thing about plotholes in heroes is that they have the power of invisibility (or mabye mind wiping) so that the writers can ignore them for as long as possible.

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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Lumpy » Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:27 pm UTC

Speaking of which, if Noah brought the Haitian, then that knife guy probably would have been apprehended by the security guards instead. Also, why didn't he ask the Haitian to be his bodyguard while he had the compass?

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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Vanguard » Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:03 pm UTC

The Utilitarian wrote:So, something occured to me.

According to Ms Patrelli, Nylar's been using Sylar's "Object Reading" powers automatically to fill in the gaps in his memory and maintain the illusion that he's Nathan. So, this would seem to suggest that "passive" powers like the object reading work automatically for Nylar.

So then... what happned to Sylar's "Lie Detection" power? That seemed to be an "always on" option that just worked passively. Shouldn't Nylar be detecting, y'know, the constant stream of lies that his mother has been feeding him since the transformation?

On the subject of the object reading powers... shouldn't he have read the history of Sylar's clothes the instant he woke up? I might be missing something there.


I suspend my disbelief on the grounds of 'he doesn't know he has it'. It might be passive, but if your brain is unaware of it, it could become dormant.

That's how I think of it.
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby The Utilitarian » Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:08 pm UTC

Lumpy wrote:Speaking of which, if Noah brought the Haitian, then that knife guy probably would have been apprehended by the security guards instead. Also, why didn't he ask the Haitian to be his bodyguard while he had the compass?

Because the Haitian's other OTHER power is being unavailable whenever he would be most useful.
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby headprogrammingczar » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:44 am UTC

When is the Haitian ever not useful?
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The Utilitarian
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby The Utilitarian » Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:06 am UTC

headprogrammingczar wrote:When is the Haitian ever not useful?

Especially since his "no powers aura" got supplimented with his "modify memory" touch power.
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Re: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

Postby Technical Ben » Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:20 pm UTC

The Utilitarian wrote:
headprogrammingczar wrote:When is the Haitian ever not useful?

Especially since his "no powers aura" got supplimented with his "modify memory" touch power.


Not quite a lurking thread hijack... but I always read it as he could temporarily make them forget they had powers at a distance, and erase proper memories upon touch.

The MASSIVE plot holes and the MORONS WITH POWERS* are the only thing putting me off watching another series. I loved the first and second series (darn you writers strike! Although perhaps less is more). But after that it seems to get more and more disconnected.


*Which is practically every character, more so the further into the story you get. I mean, if I had powers, I'd get better, not worse with practice. Also how they always do the opposite to what more reasonable people would do.
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