New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse [Spoilers Within]

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Nath » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:50 am UTC

thatguy wrote:
Spoiler:
Is Topher the double-agent? He sends his assistant-girl away to finish the implant...
Is Langdon in on it? He did distract Topher in "the middle of [his] thing."

Spoiler:
I suspect Langton. He's too much of a cop to be working for the Dollhouse solely for the money. There's probably an accomplice, but there are many candidates. Ivy (technical know-how), Saunders (for the dolls), maybe even DeWitt or Dominic (both of whom also seem to be working for more than money). It's probably not Topher; he's in it for the science, not the money or politics.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby thatguy » Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:11 am UTC

Nath wrote:
thatguy wrote:
Spoiler:
Is Topher the double-agent? He sends his assistant-girl away to finish the implant...
Is Langdon in on it? He did distract Topher in "the middle of [his] thing."

Spoiler:
I suspect Langton. He's too much of a cop to be working for the Dollhouse solely for the money. There's probably an accomplice, but there are many candidates. Ivy (technical know-how), Saunders (for the dolls), maybe even DeWitt or Dominic (both of whom also seem to be working for more than money). It's probably not Topher; he's in it for the science, not the money or politics.

Spoiler:
Touche. I'd bet on Langon at this point as well.

Ok, now I'm goddamned excited for this show. I was worried how they'd make a season compelling with the pace they had, but now that it feels like the story is about The Dollhouse and not Echo, it makes a lot more sense.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby aleflamedyud » Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:19 am UTC

Just read the original pilot script. Well fuck. That just had most of the plot-arc material from the past 5 or 6 episodes!
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby thatguy » Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:32 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:Just read the original pilot script. Well fuck. That just had most of the plot-arc material from the past 5 or 6 episodes!

Yeah. Some FOX exec took Joss' "the first six episodes are the pilot" mantra too far. They almost neutered the series.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Jack Saladin » Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:35 am UTC

Also just read that script, and goddamn, that was awesome. I watched the pilot that actually aired and thought it sucked (and from what I heard on the tubes everything that followed was even worse). Maybe I should stick to reading scripts instead of watching what they look like after being put through The Machine...

Really hoping that 6 and onwards lives up to that standard. I'll watch 6, but it's this shows last chance.

Also Whedon must have some sort of severe birth defect to keep going with FOX. How many of his shows are they going to have to ruin before he gets it? Have some vision, man! Where's your artistic indignation? Creatives are supposed to get all up in arms about this sort of shit, not just meekly limp back to their abusive corporate partner every season.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Malice » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:30 am UTC

Jack Saladin wrote:Also just read that script, and goddamn, that was awesome. I watched the pilot that actually aired and thought it sucked (and from what I heard on the tubes everything that followed was even worse). Maybe I should stick to reading scripts instead of watching what they look like after being put through The Machine...


Granted, I don't often read television scripts; but rarely have I seen something this screwed up, a show with this large of a difference in quality between the beginning and the middle. Most pilots tend to be a little bit worse, simply because they're unformed, but this is fucking ridiculous.

Also Whedon must have some sort of severe birth defect to keep going with FOX. How many of his shows are they going to have to ruin before he gets it? Have some vision, man! Where's your artistic indignation? Creatives are supposed to get all up in arms about this sort of shit, not just meekly limp back to their abusive corporate partner every season.


Exactly. It's not like Dushku's the only actress who could possibly have portrayed Echo. He could have taken it to one of the other channels, or more likely, one of the cable channels, and gotten a lot more creative freedom. It's so frustrating to watch a good artist compromise themselves over and over again.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby ameretrifle » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:06 am UTC

Heft wrote:I don't know if anyone's seen this, but the script from the original pilot episode is up. At least one of the old promo clips contains pretty much exclusively footage and dialogue from "Echo" (the original pilot) and not "Ghost" (the one that aired), and they did shoot the entire thing, but ultimately decided it was too dense or something. But if you're the sort that prefers the more complicated material (which, considering this is the xkcd forum, I'd bet is most of us) then you might be interested - http://www.docstoc.com/docs/3236356/Scr ... x01_-_Echo Personally I like it better than what we got, but I can understand the decision to go with the simpler, more streamlined one. Now, that script does introduce a lot more stuff that will probably be introduced in future episodes, so I suppose "Spoiler Alert."
Just pointing this out for fairness' sake. If you'd listened to this guy like I did, you'd have read the pilot script weeks ago. The site wasn't kind to my poor laptop, but it was worth it. It's so strange to actually have done something before someone, for once. I mean, as an example, I only got access to a DVR last week. My world is all upside-down. It's quite disconcerting.

I missed the last couple weeks, but after all this raving, I'll definitely look up yesterday's ep on Hulu.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Nath » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:02 am UTC

Malice wrote:Granted, I don't often read television scripts; but rarely have I seen something this screwed up, a show with this large of a difference in quality between the beginning and the middle. Most pilots tend to be a little bit worse, simply because they're unformed, but this is fucking ridiculous.

I just read the original pilot. Yes, I liked it better than all the filler we've gotten, but I don't think we're in a position to fairly compare the original beginning to the one we got. I'm guessing the complaint with the original was that it packed in too much arc material, making it hard to follow what's going on. We're in the position of reading it when we already know all the plot points it hits, and in any case plot is easier to pick up in writing than on screen. It's possible that if they'd gone with the original script, we'd be complaining that it was too rushed or something. Perhaps their instinct to start slower was a good one, but they took it too far.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Jack Saladin » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:09 am UTC

I didn't know all of those plot points, having only watched episode 1, and it was clearly massively superior in every possible way. It was well written and well paced and had just the right amount of plot for a first episode.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Malice » Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:25 pm UTC

ameretrifle wrote:
Heft wrote:I don't know if anyone's seen this, but the script from the original pilot episode is up. At least one of the old promo clips contains pretty much exclusively footage and dialogue from "Echo" (the original pilot) and not "Ghost" (the one that aired), and they did shoot the entire thing, but ultimately decided it was too dense or something. But if you're the sort that prefers the more complicated material (which, considering this is the xkcd forum, I'd bet is most of us) then you might be interested - http://www.docstoc.com/docs/3236356/Scr ... x01_-_Echo Personally I like it better than what we got, but I can understand the decision to go with the simpler, more streamlined one. Now, that script does introduce a lot more stuff that will probably be introduced in future episodes, so I suppose "Spoiler Alert."
Just pointing this out for fairness' sake. If you'd listened to this guy like I did, you'd have read the pilot script weeks ago.


Oh, I know. I saved that link when I saw it, but I wanted to read it after I had seen the episodes it would have spoiled. Sorry for not giving credit where it was due.

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Nath wrote:
Malice wrote:Granted, I don't often read television scripts; but rarely have I seen something this screwed up, a show with this large of a difference in quality between the beginning and the middle. Most pilots tend to be a little bit worse, simply because they're unformed, but this is fucking ridiculous.

I just read the original pilot. Yes, I liked it better than all the filler we've gotten, but I don't think we're in a position to fairly compare the original beginning to the one we got. I'm guessing the complaint with the original was that it packed in too much arc material, making it hard to follow what's going on. We're in the position of reading it when we already know all the plot points it hits, and in any case plot is easier to pick up in writing than on screen. It's possible that if they'd gone with the original script, we'd be complaining that it was too rushed or something. Perhaps their instinct to start slower was a good one, but they took it too far.


You speak the truth. Although I'm of the opinion you could have rewritten the pilot to be just a little bit less intense; probably didn't even require stretching it out into a second episode. Certainly 5 episodes was a terrible idea.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby thatguy » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:53 pm UTC

Now I'm wondering why they cast Eliza Dushku (a recognizable name) as Echo. It seems like the show would be much more sustainable if Echo were truly expendable. Does this make sense? It seems like the show would be able to focus more on the Dollhouse if Echo were more of a non-lead character.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby BlackSails » Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:02 pm UTC

On the secret message:
Spoiler:
I suspect Topher's assistant. She has the access and know how, and Topher basically considers her a gopher, so he wont suspect her of anything. Langdon lacks the technical ability to do it, and we know where he was when the imprint was left alone - he was talking to topher. It also could have just been a trick to get Ballard to back off
Last edited by BlackSails on Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:08 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby thatguy » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:14 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:On the secret message:
Spoiler:
I suspect Topher's assistant. She has the access and know how, and Topher basically considers her a gopher, so he wont suspect her of anything. Langdon lacks the technical ability to do it, and we know where he was when the imprint was left alone - he was talking to topher. It also could have just been a trick to get Ballard to back off

Fix tags before people freak out.

I agree with your observations.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Malice » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:32 pm UTC

thatguy wrote:Now I'm wondering why they cast Eliza Dushku (a recognizable name) as Echo. It seems like the show would be much more sustainable if Echo were truly expendable. Does this make sense? It seems like the show would be able to focus more on the Dollhouse if Echo were more of a non-lead character.


There are two possible answers:

1. Echo wasn't supposed to be a lead character in the first place, and Fox fucked it up, which meant her casting would have been better with a less well-known actress, but since she was the one tied to the show from the beginning in the first place (so much so that that's why they were on Fox to begin with) he didn't/couldn't change it, because it was too late to do so. Particularly since they'd filmed the pilot by the time Fox fucked them, so it would have cost even more money.

2. But without her, how could they sell the show on T&A shots and mindless-loveslave fantasies?

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Princess Marzipan » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:46 am UTC

Is spoilering really necessary at this point?

One would think it obvious to avoid the thread if one isn't caught up on the show (or check post dates and only read up until when you missed an episode.)
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Jack Saladin » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:07 am UTC

One would think there are plenty of people who don't live in the US, and plenty of people who watch via a variety of other time-delayed methods. One would think the spoiler policies of this forum are the way they are for a reason and we don't need to have this debate again.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby pseudoidiot » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:32 am UTC

Concerning the secret message:
Spoiler:
I think some things were truthful, but I also feel like there was probably some deception. I'm not entirely convinced of the "inside man" part of the message. If Alpha had a hand in it, and I'm sure he did, it would be easier for him to just say he's on the inside instead of trying to explain everything to Ballard in more detail.

I'm not sure whether I think Langdon is in on it. He's certainly got enough reservations about what he and Dollhouse does, so it's possible. And he definitely set up the perfect opportunity by distracting Topher, since I'm sure that was when the programming got tampered with. I'm thinking that while Topher was distracted Alpha did something remotely. I think it seems probable by now that Alpha has the kind of skills to pull that off.

Also, was anyone else completely not surprised by Mellie being an active? I've figured she was for awhile and almost gave up that notion until last night. It just didn't seem that the flirty neighbor was enough of an explanation for her appearance in the show.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby thatguy » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:36 am UTC

Spoiler:
Yeah, I think quite a few people called the "Millie being an Active." My TV sense is telling me she might rebel, though.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Emily St Aubert » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:39 am UTC

Hope it's OK to add a couple of things in response to earlier posts; am going to watch ep 6 tomorrow.

And I'm basing Wash-Topher on their mannerism, style of speech, attitude, the role of being integral but kinda seen as unimportant by some. Also the way he handles personal attacks, the whole flashback "Oh, thank goodness, guns. Can I have one? Seriously, a gun?"


For me, he's pretty much an amalgam of Warren/Jonathan/Andrew. The scientist, the Watcher-like aspects (along with Fred and Boyd), the nerdiness that you really feel Joss *loves*. (He's also Marshall from Alias, to Boyd's Dixon, of course). Echo and the other dolls obviously have a lot in common with the Buffybot (and Mr Universe's girlfriend too) inasmuch as they're ostensibly inert, programmable objects of desire; the separation of their physical bodies from any form of inconvenient personality that might detract from their hotness or availability being something we know Joss is fond of exploring (see also River*; Echo is like a sexualised version of River, which makes a lot of sense and is, I think, necessarily honest in a show that's explicitly -at least, as told to us by Helo - about how low people will stoop to make money through the exploitation of others). The blank slate theory goes further than this, of course; essentially it's a scifi exploration of nature vs nurture, I suppose. We've seen the Buffy ep Tabula Rasa, we've heard Olivia Williams say it several times, we know how Joss likes to deal with the paradox of giving a character skills and strength and then denying them agency and free will I don't have a problem with the obsession with this theme simply because I think if a writer is concerned with something in this way, they're better off exploring and developing it.

* It interests me that Summer Glau now plays a robot whose choices are controlled by those that programme her and who has to question, Jason Bourne-like, whether or not she can assert her own morality...

Also, the girl who lives opposite him was originally cast as November, another active. Perhaps she still is, and is keeping an eye on the FBI agent, much like Victor was screwing him up?


I just wanted to mention her because, in the context of the discussion about skinny actresses, I have been having mixed feelings about her. I mean, she has a gorgeous face - especially, her glorious eyes - and I want to really like the fact that she's kind of normal-sized, not stick-thin. But then, she's so far been a bit of a hopeless figure - waiting at the door for Helo to come home, being jealous in a hopeless, well, you would never notice me anyway way of pictures of Echo, the pasta, etc. Which is just too awful, unless there is more to her, so I want to go with that theory.

The fact that if Helo lived anywhere near me, I too would be stalking him with a soppy look on my face all day is neither here nor there.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Princess Marzipan » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:03 am UTC

I'd noticed that about her, too.

She's looks large on-screen, which is bloody stupid because she's just average in size. Damn twigs.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby mrbaggins » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:11 am UTC

Millie (Actress Miracle Laurie) is by far and away the hottest girl on the show. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Also, Kaylee on firefly, for most of the same reasons.

I picked her being an active simply because of proximity. Plus, she was originally cast as November, another doll, which just made me look for more signs.

When you say "Tophers assistant" do you mean the asian girl? Hrm... interesting.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby thatguy » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:24 am UTC

Oh some thing that I just remembered thinking about:

I think the Topher in the original 1x01 is a bit more of a badass than the Topher we know. In that script, he seems to have thought about the morality of what he's doing and decided that he doesn't care, whereas TVTopher seems like he hasn't/doesn't want to think about it.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Princess Marzipan » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:27 am UTC

Jack Saladin wrote:One would think there are plenty of people who don't live in the US, and plenty of people who watch via a variety of other time-delayed methods. One would think the spoiler policies of this forum are the way they are for a reason and we don't need to have this debate again.

Except have a look here: Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)
and here: Battlestar Galactica (spoilers rampant like Durandal)
and here: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

All pretty active topics about ongoing (BSG only up until recently) shows with the thread title warning of spoilers. Rampant spoiler tags don't seem to be so much a matter of forum policy as just 'how things are done'. It also seems redundant when they're used in a thread wherein there is constant new material to spoil at regular interval.

tl;dr - ffs, man, I was just sayin'.

thatguy: he's clearly more lovable as he is now. Not that I can say whether that's better or worse, just probably something someone decided should be.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Jack Saladin » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:33 am UTC

Try reading the rules thread: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=23118

It is forum policy, and your other questions are covered there too.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Princess Marzipan » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:20 am UTC

4. Spoiler Your Plot Elements. Unless the title of the thread has the word Spoilers in it, I fully expect you to use the spoiler tags to hide plot elements.

Well there we go. If the thread title indicates spoilers, people can discuss plot elements sans spoiler tags without feeling guilty about it.

I'll requisition a title change.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Jack Saladin » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:28 am UTC

And I'll tell you now this thread is nowhere near active enough to warrant it.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby cephalopod9 » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:29 am UTC

thatguy wrote:Oh some thing that I just remembered thinking about:

I think the Topher in the original 1x01 is a bit more of a badass than the Topher we know. In that script, he seems to have thought about the morality of what he's doing and decided that he doesn't care, whereas TVTopher seems like he hasn't/doesn't want to think about it.

Dang, yes.
He's all whiny and "look at me, I'm eccentric" now.
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pseudoidiot wrote:Concerning the secret message:
Spoiler:
I think some things were truthful, but I also feel like there was probably some deception. I'm not entirely convinced of the "inside man" part of the message. If Alpha had a hand in it, and I'm sure he did, it would be easier for him to just say he's on the inside instead of trying to explain everything to Ballard in more detail.

I'm not sure whether I think Langdon is in on it. He's certainly got enough reservations about what he and Dollhouse does, so it's possible. And he definitely set up the perfect opportunity by distracting Topher, since I'm sure that was when the programming got tampered with. I'm thinking that while Topher was distracted Alpha did something remotely. I think it seems probable by now that Alpha has the kind of skills to pull that off.

Also, was anyone else completely not surprised by Mellie being an active? I've figured she was for awhile and almost gave up that notion until last night. It just didn't seem that the flirty neighbor was enough of an explanation for her appearance in the show.
It seemed like
Spoiler:
umm... English boss lady was working on her own. Both in sending the guy after Millie (which was about to make me mad because it didn't make sense), and contacting/handling her. She could be responsible for Alpha, it does seem like she's sort of... two sided, both threatening and helping Echo.
Have we gotten info on who her bosses are?
I'm kind of disapointed with the direction they took things with Sierra.
Spoiler:
It kind of makes sense, it was kind inevitable, and the guy would pick a situation where he'd have a scape goat, (sort of). But dang all, (IMO) Sierra's been way more beleiveable as a doll than Echo, and bleh, just bleh.
I kind of question Whedon's skill in writing conflict. :over turns table and pulls out a gun:
Oh durr,
Spoiler:
I just got that Echo was painting internet guy's house.
It kind of seems like they are trying to make Millie look fat..ish rounder. It's sort of weird.
She's cool tho'.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby SPsnow02 » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:08 am UTC

cephalopod9 wrote:It seemed like
Spoiler:
umm... English boss lady was working on her own. Both in sending the guy after Millie (which was about to make me mad because it didn't make sense), and contacting/handling her. She could be responsible for Alpha, it does seem like she's sort of... two sided, both threatening and helping Echo.
Have we gotten info on who her bosses are?


Spoiler:
My thought was that by sending Sierra's ex-handler after Millie she would convince Ballard to trust Millie
Rawr!

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby mrbaggins » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:12 am UTC

SPsnow02 wrote:
cephalopod9 wrote:It seemed like
Spoiler:
umm... English boss lady was working on her own. Both in sending the guy after Millie (which was about to make me mad because it didn't make sense), and contacting/handling her. She could be responsible for Alpha, it does seem like she's sort of... two sided, both threatening and helping Echo.
Have we gotten info on who her bosses are?


Spoiler:
My thought was that by sending Sierra's ex-handler after Millie she would convince Ballard to trust Millie


Spoiler:
Either that, or it reinforces their relationship, which she stated as being useful.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby cephalopod9 » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:48 am UTC

Could be,
Spoiler:
it just seemed she was doing it independently of the organization. Sneaky like.
Why was she over by Echo at the end there?
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby ameretrifle » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:00 am UTC

Spoiler tags aren't that hard to do...

Spoiler:
Re: the message, I can see how it could be real, but somehow, I just find that hard to believe. I can't say exactly why I'm so skeptical about it... Seems more like an attempt to play him to me. Well, actually, real or not, whoever sent it, it's obviously an attempt to play him. Maybe that's why I got that vibe.

Though I did totally call Boss-Lady not being the actual head of the whole operation. :D

Yeah, I thought Millie was an active too, though I'd nearly forgotten by now. Very cool reveal, though-- I was tricked for quite some time into thinking they'd kill her off instead. One of the reasons for the attack might be to make the message more credible-- she tells him Millie's at risk (but, of course, not in so many words), he runs to find that she has indeed narrowly escaped from mortal peril, he's inclined to believe the message (and disinclined to think Millie is anything other than what she seems).

I think they're implying that Dollhouse is not only an internationally franchised corporation, but it also has some much larger, more sinister motive than mere human trafficking? Hard to imagine what that one would be. Turn the whole populace into sheep or something?

I thought the ending was pretty off. Boss-lady being "nice" by sending Echo to "finish the assignment" like she "wanted to"... Just because Internet Dude had some sob-story to tell doesn't mean the situation is morally ambiguous. Sending him a copy of his wife every year to tell his good news to (and sleep with) is not being kind to him. Actually, I don't think anything with Internet Guy was handled that well... The whole confrontation/conversation made little sense.

Topher? Loveable? They haven't changed him that much from the pilot... :)

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Jack Saladin » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:34 am UTC

Well, I watched this episode, and, uh, I hate to go against the grain here and all, but I still didn't think it was very good. And I still think the premise is fundamentally flawed and unbelievable and misapproached on many levels. And the acting is terrible, especially some of those on-the-street people and the lead girl (Dushku?).

So yeah, probably passing.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby pseudoidiot » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:30 pm UTC

ameretrifle wrote:Spoiler tags aren't that hard to do...

Spoiler:
Re: the message, I can see how it could be real, but somehow, I just find that hard to believe. I can't say exactly why I'm so skeptical about it... Seems more like an attempt to play him to me. Well, actually, real or not, whoever sent it, it's obviously an attempt to play him. Maybe that's why I got that vibe.

Though I did totally call Boss-Lady not being the actual head of the whole operation. :D

Yeah, I thought Millie was an active too, though I'd nearly forgotten by now. Very cool reveal, though-- I was tricked for quite some time into thinking they'd kill her off instead. One of the reasons for the attack might be to make the message more credible-- she tells him Millie's at risk (but, of course, not in so many words), he runs to find that she has indeed narrowly escaped from mortal peril, he's inclined to believe the message (and disinclined to think Millie is anything other than what she seems).

I think they're implying that Dollhouse is not only an internationally franchised corporation, but it also has some much larger, more sinister motive than mere human trafficking? Hard to imagine what that one would be. Turn the whole populace into sheep or something?

I thought the ending was pretty off. Boss-lady being "nice" by sending Echo to "finish the assignment" like she "wanted to"... Just because Internet Dude had some sob-story to tell doesn't mean the situation is morally ambiguous. Sending him a copy of his wife every year to tell his good news to (and sleep with) is not being kind to him. Actually, I don't think anything with Internet Guy was handled that well... The whole confrontation/conversation made little sense.

Topher? Loveable? They haven't changed him that much from the pilot... :)

About the ending:
Spoiler:
I saw it as a bit of customer service. Here's a wealthy repeat customer that does the same fantasy every year and it's normally a low-risk assignment. May as well appease him a little by allowing him to finish up his fantasy.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse [Spoilers Within]

Postby culled » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:28 pm UTC

My guess on the inside man is that it's
Spoiler:
Dominic, during the cult episode he went to Arizona to do something to Echo but we don't know what. He didn't kill her even though he easily could have so I'm guessing that he was the one that put the message in Echo. To what purpose I don't know but I'm convinced he's the one.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse [Spoilers Within]

Postby BlackSails » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:39 pm UTC

culled wrote:My guess on the inside man is that it's
Spoiler:
Dominic, during the cult episode he went to Arizona to do something to Echo but we don't know what. He didn't kill her even though he easily could have so I'm guessing that he was the one that put the message in Echo. To what purpose I don't know but I'm convinced he's the one.


Spoiler:
He hit her in the face, knocked her out and left her for dead. The only reason she lived is that Langdon was willing to run into a burning building with an unknown number of hostiles inside to rescue her. Dominic meant for her to die. Also, he does not have the technical ability to hack an imprint. It HAS to be either Topher, his assistant or some unknown character. Nobody else that we know (other than Alpha) has the knowledge to do anything with an imprint

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse [Spoilers Within]

Postby culled » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:14 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:
culled wrote:My guess on the inside man is that it's
Spoiler:
Dominic, during the cult episode he went to Arizona to do something to Echo but we don't know what. He didn't kill her even though he easily could have so I'm guessing that he was the one that put the message in Echo. To what purpose I don't know but I'm convinced he's the one.


Spoiler:
He hit her in the face, knocked her out and left her for dead. The only reason she lived is that Langdon was willing to run into a burning building with an unknown number of hostiles inside to rescue her. Dominic meant for her to die. Also, he does not have the technical ability to hack an imprint. It HAS to be either Topher, his assistant or some unknown character. Nobody else that we know (other than Alpha) has the knowledge to do anything with an imprint

Spoiler:
He shot the cult leader guy and then knocked her out and the show went to a commercial break. If he wanted to kill her he could have a) not shot the cult leader who was going to kill her or b) just shot her with his gun. If he wanted to kill her he's a moron. He had to have done something more ominous than just try to kill her even if he's not the one that put the message into Echo.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse [Spoilers Within]

Postby steewi » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:55 am UTC

Conspiracy theory:
Spoiler:
OK, so it's not likely but I want to put it out there so that I can say I called it if I'm right.

Topher is the mole, but he doesn't know it. He's been programmed by Alpha. Alpha had the chance to do so when he went on his rampage - remember that Topher was unhurt and confused when everyone else arrived. Doc Saunders will be killed off as a suspect before Topher is revealed.

Alternative: Saunders is programmed by Alpha, that's why she was only cut up, not killed.


*shrug* There's a good chance I'm waaaaay off, so I have no problem with it being ripped apart.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse [Spoilers Within]

Postby thatguy » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:59 am UTC

Spoiler:
Or, Saunders and Alpha have some sort of history. So when he flipped his shit he stopped short of killing her, and now she's helping him take Dollhouse down.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse [Spoilers Within]

Postby Whispering » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:44 am UTC

Well I finally got around to watching Man on the Street and I have to say it was the best episode yet and my wife even was interested (she doesn't watch shows on Fox).
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse [Spoilers Within]

Postby BlackSails » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:56 am UTC

culled wrote:
BlackSails wrote:
culled wrote:My guess on the inside man is that it's
Spoiler:
Dominic, during the cult episode he went to Arizona to do something to Echo but we don't know what. He didn't kill her even though he easily could have so I'm guessing that he was the one that put the message in Echo. To what purpose I don't know but I'm convinced he's the one.


Spoiler:
He hit her in the face, knocked her out and left her for dead. The only reason she lived is that Langdon was willing to run into a burning building with an unknown number of hostiles inside to rescue her. Dominic meant for her to die. Also, he does not have the technical ability to hack an imprint. It HAS to be either Topher, his assistant or some unknown character. Nobody else that we know (other than Alpha) has the knowledge to do anything with an imprint

Spoiler:
He shot the cult leader guy and then knocked her out and the show went to a commercial break. If he wanted to kill her he could have a) not shot the cult leader who was going to kill her or b) just shot her with his gun. If he wanted to kill her he's a moron. He had to have done something more ominous than just try to kill her even if he's not the one that put the message into Echo.


Spoiler:
He shot the cult leader because the cult leader was dangerous. He didnt shoot Echo either because A) He was squeamish about killing her personally or B) Didnt want to leave evidence. Forensic ballistics and all that.


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