Se7en

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Midnight
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Se7en

Postby Midnight » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:42 am UTC

Am I right in saying that some BASTARD saw se7en and said "HEY. I can take that... to a stupid and annoying extreme... and I'll call it SAW!"

cause really, I saw the first 2 SAWs, which were ok (if you're looking for "DUDEEEEE THAT JUST HAPPENED" sort of thrills, along with a modicum of plot)...

...and then I saw this. Which blew everything similiar to it out of the water, symbolic killings, biblical killings, crazy people, Kevin Spacey, and morgan freeman's role as the "old cop who's all calm and teaches the hot-headed newbie a thing or two". I mean, it's amazingly well directed, well acted (suffice to say, Spacey scared the shit out of me), and a good plot.

Spoiler:
and the ending, which tried to be abrupt.. struck me as a bit too little. If they had stopped on the final shot--ok, but they had a bit of aftermath and I thought they'd go somewhere with that. but they didn't.
I'm not asking for a Soprano's where we don't know if he did it or not, but.. Grrr. It seemed almost a rough cut of what they were planning to do--but only the last 3 minutes.
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: Se7en

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:48 am UTC

Well, duh... David Fincher. :) Why has this man not won more awards?
Also, it has one of my all-time favorite lines... well, two of my favorite lines.

Number the first:

    "It's more comfortable for you to label me insane."
    "It's very comfortable."

Number the second (slightly better):

    "Ernest Hemmingway once wrote 'The world is a beautiful place, and worth fighting for'. Well... I agree with the second part."

Also, how can you not know what happened at the end of Sopranos?

Spoiler:
Tony himself said "Death is... death is nothing. Everything goes black." Then the end of the show, was nothing... everything went black. That's about as obvious as they could get WITHOUT saying it explicitly on screen.

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Re: Se7en

Postby pooteeweet » Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:54 am UTC

I agree that overall Se7en was better than Saw, but I liked the ending of Saw better than the ending of Se7en. Maybe because of what you said, with the aftermath bit.

Spoiler:
Actually, I think Se7en's ending disappointed me because I felt like the killing of the wife was inconsistant with the guy's established pattern. What was HER deadly sin that she deserved to be beheaded for? Nothing, she was just collateral damage and that sucks. So that confused me because I was trying to figure out how that fit in, so I was distracted from what was supposed to be the climactic ending of the movie.
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Re: Se7en

Postby Jesse » Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:26 am UTC

SAW and Se7en are two completely different films. SAW is a set-piece horror film. It relies on several memorable set-up deaths to engross the watcher.

Se7en is a Fincher-style film noir, notice the incredible use of mise-en-scene in the film. Look at the character's relationship. Morgan Freeman is leaving the police force, this is his final case before he goes. Brad Pitt is brand new, looking to make a name for himself. (Rest is in spoilers below)

Spoiler:
Freeman is going to escape the claustrophobic city, but the series of events traps him into it. The city completely destroys Brad Pitt's life, to the point of killing his wife, causing him to go to murder the killer. Thus Freeman is trapped again, his replacement was unsuitable, and so he goes back to the job, and the city.

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Re: Se7en

Postby The Ethos » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:19 pm UTC

For what it's worth, a buddy of mine at Zenoscope did seven comics (I guess you could say Se7en comics as well) about the movie. Each comic is the crime from John Doe's POV. I thought it was really well done, but realistically, everyone just loves that crazy journal scrawling.

/Fleshes out Does' backstory
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Re: Se7en

Postby Belial » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:02 pm UTC

Jesse wrote:SAW and Se7en are two completely different films.


Seriously. Especially the first SAW movie. It only had a surface similarity to Se7en. Saying that one of them has to be superior is kindof shortchanging both movies. And it only diverged further as the series went on.
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Re: Se7en

Postby Malice » Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:00 am UTC

One of the reasons I like Se7en is because it takes what could easily have been a gimmick, but actually treats with it in a serious way. It's one of my favorite things in any form of art, taking something that seems silly or dumb or awful and saying, "No, actually, this has a lot of meaning to it."

For another example of this, see "The Poet", the novel by Michael Connelly, which is so good that, like Se7en, it doesn't start with its "gimmick" but arrives at it after setting up character and situation.

I also like Se7en because it's excellent in every part of filmmaking: score, cinematography, acting, writing, editing... Somehow David Fincher has a great talent for memorable moments, and certain parts of Se7en stick in my head long after details of the film have fade: the cops swarming into Vincent's room, the lighting at the first murder, the shot of the sun shining through a car window as Pitt tries to remember somebody's name... There's a brilliance to it, a mind at work behind every shot, line, and scene.
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Re: Se7en

Postby darwinwins » Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:05 am UTC

Belial wrote:
Jesse wrote:SAW and Se7en are two completely different films.


Seriously. Especially the first SAW movie. It only had a surface similarity to Se7en. Saying that one of them has to be superior is kindof shortchanging both movies. And it only diverged further as the series went on.

what, like how SAW is crap and SE7EN isn't?
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Re: Se7en

Postby Belial » Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:41 am UTC

I respect your right to have no idea what you're talking about.
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Re: Se7en

Postby Midnight » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:18 am UTC

Belial wrote:I respect your right to have no idea what you're talking about.



i sincerely hope you aren't talking to darwinwins because that would imply you think either se7en is crap or SAW is good.

and the whole sopranos thing, i think I meant that wrong. What i was trying to say was it's not like sopranos where it's so abrupt that it works... it is somewhat obvious what happened (unless you're part of the idiot masses)
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: Se7en

Postby no-genius » Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:56 am UTC

Midnight wrote:
Belial wrote:I respect your right to have no idea what you're talking about.

i sincerely hope you aren't talking to darwinwins because that would imply you think either se7en is crap or SAW is good.

What Belial said?
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Re: Se7en

Postby Malice » Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:30 pm UTC

Comparing the two films might be shortchanging them. But empirically (as empiric as these things get, anyway), Seven is a very good movie and Saw a fairly bad one. They may not fit into the same sub-genre of horror, but they are both movies, and one is pretty much better than the other.
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Re: Se7en

Postby Belial » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:23 pm UTC

I really don't grasp the SAW hate. They're well put-together movies with a pretty decent story. Well, IV was kindof annoying, but still.

Are you sure you don't have them confused with the "Hostel" movies?
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Re: Se7en

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:29 pm UTC

They just hate Australia.
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Re: Se7en

Postby Jesse » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:58 pm UTC

SAW tends to get a lot of dislike for being a set-piece horror film. Which it is. I just fail to see why that makes it bad. It's certainly the best example of a set-piece horror film that I've ever had the pleasure of watching. Sure I like my horrors intellectual with a noir twist, but for the sub-genre it inhabits I would posit it as the shining example of how to do it.

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Re: Se7en

Postby Malice » Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:29 pm UTC

It's been a while since I saw Saw...

But as I recall, it was derivative, discomforting*, and hyperstylized (for no good reason). It had characters who at times struggled to approach one dimension, an extraordinarily manipulative plot, illogic and plot-holes up to its metaphorical ears, and a particularly bullshit moral.

*"But Malice, horror films aren't necessarily supposed to be comforting!" Yes, but there's a difference between proper tension, fear, even claustrophobia, and what Saw does, which is (if I recall correctly) a very manufactured, grimy tension, a closed-in feeling of contrived nausea. I know I was sick to my stomach, watching it, and I'm not normally affected that way by movie gore.

You could easily claim that Se7en is, among other things, a set-piece movie, as centered on the 7 grisly murders as Saw is on its death-traps. However, Se7en takes those set-pieces and connects them within and between them with real, 3-dimensional characters, a meaningful theme (as opposed to Saw's closing, apologetic folderol), a consistent and proper tone, and a related and appropriate visual strategy.

It's kinda the difference between saying, "Boo!" and saying, "Look at what humanity is capable of. Smell this rotting flesh, sense the weight of endless sin and hate, and recognize that it is within you, too. Madness feels like velvet."

Both of those statements are scary, sure. One of them is better.

And hell, it isn't even a very good "Boo". I don't expect a movie like Saw to be a great work of art; but if I'm feeling ill I'm not feeling scared, and if I don't care about the characters I'm not going to be afraid for them during a goddamn shootout, and if you end your movie by trying to apologize for what you've done it's going to piss me off. The tools of filmmaking can and should be aligned for the creation of art, but that doesn't mean a piece of schlock entertainment can totally abandon them and still be effective and fun.
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Re: Se7en

Postby Belial » Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:34 am UTC

Unless you can be more specific, I can't really argue with you except to say: What movie were you even watching?
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Re: Se7en

Postby Malice » Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:32 am UTC

Sorry. That's just about the limit of specificity unless I go rewatch the movie, which isn't going to happen. I remember the way I felt watching it: not "good horror movie scared" but "bad horror movie nauseated". I remember thinking "Cool deathtraps" and "boy is this a stupid twist" and "very little of this makes logical sense" and "Danny Glover really got shortchanged with a very poorly and under-written character" and "what a bullshit moral". I remember my reaction to the movie a bit better than I remember the movie itself, but I doubt things have changed.
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Re: Se7en

Postby Midnight » Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:16 am UTC

saw I was ok. saw II was worse but not BAD.. saw III just seemed really disjointed and they tried to remove some of the gross factor (by not showing the entire arm-twisting, for example) but that just sorta revealed the ever-weakening plot. IV was bad.

It seems like they could've smashed the plots of 1 through 6 into 2 movies and been fine. i haven't seen V and VI yet, but i doubt they'll be mindblowing.
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: Se7en

Postby darwinwins » Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:07 pm UTC

Belial wrote:I respect your right to have no idea what you're talking about.

No one likes to be told they have bad taste in movies.

You have bad taste in movies.
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Re: Se7en

Postby Belial » Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:04 am UTC

In the words of Toki Wartooth:

"Screw you's all off! My codpiece is the coolest!"
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