Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby SlyReaper » Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:41 pm UTC

I'm pretty sure Mel was introduced in season 2, because Stannis was introduced in season 2.

Spoiler:
The Mel being a Targaryen thing is tenuous at best. Of course she has white hair, she's incredibly old! I think it was supposed to be more of a "hey look, she can do illusion magic too" thing. If I had to guess, I would say it's simply foreshadowing of the "what else might be an illusion" sort.

How long are they going to tease us over whether or not Mel is going to revive Jon? If she doesn't get on with it, he's going to turn into an ice zombie. Maybe she doesn't know she has that ability?
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:14 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:I'm pretty sure Mel was introduced in season 2, because Stannis was introduced in season 2.

Spoiler:
The Mel being a Targaryen thing is tenuous at best. Of course she has white hair, she's incredibly old! I think it was supposed to be more of a "hey look, she can do illusion magic too" thing. If I had to guess, I would say it's simply foreshadowing of the "what else might be an illusion" sort.

How long are they going to tease us over whether or not Mel is going to revive Jon? If she doesn't get on with it, he's going to turn into an ice zombie. Maybe she doesn't know she has that ability?


Spoiler:
Obviously the "no one" assassins use illusions to fool appearances. And of course, magical illusion could be the solution to the Sons of Harpy question.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby SlyReaper » Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:40 pm UTC

I had completely forgotten about those guys.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby maybeagnostic » Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:01 am UTC

Ending of S06E01:
Spoiler:
It seems pretty clear that the whole Mel scene was about her crisis of faith. This ties back to the conversations she had with Selyse seasons ago about how she uses tricks and sleight of hand to achieve R'hllor's goals. Now she is struggling with losing her conviction and the unshakable faith in her god and the correctness of her actions so she divests herself of the trappings of her power that were always for show/just tools. The reveal is that it isn't just powders and glowy jewelry but the very face she was wearing that is part of the hoax.


I liked the episode a lot. Dorne was meh but also very brief.
Spoiler:
The Sansa and Brienne meeting was very well done and something meaningful was shown for all four characters in a rather brief time.
Everything else was mostly setup but it felt more organic and engaging than opening episodes in previous seasons.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Lucrece » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:26 pm UTC

It's like they weren't satisfied with people being pissed off with the Dorne plot, so they made it even worse.

That's not Ellaria Sand anymore; do you think Ellaria Sand would honor Oberyn by what she did?

More importantly, these Sand Snakes are doing all this crap supposedly because of Oberyn (family), and yet what cousin did to cousin rather casually is beyond the pale.

They've perverted these characters just because they wrote themselves into a corner with that stupid plot instead of being faithful to the books. Poor Indira Varma and Alexander Siddig; the writing is not worthy of your talents.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby SlyReaper » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:21 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Yep they pretty much pissed all over Dorne and any interesting plot lines that could have been associated with it. There was supposed to be this grand master plan that was going to be amazing, but I guess the writers couldn't think of anywhere to go with it.

Also annoyed at Areo Hotah going down the way he did. It seemed like they were building him up as this scary badass, but he never got his crowning moment of awesome. Now he's just Dr Bashir's stern looking bodyguard who, very briefly, sucks at his job.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby maybeagnostic » Thu Apr 28, 2016 5:51 am UTC

In the writers' defense, GRRM hasn't had any idea where to go with the series since before Dorne was even introduced and the Martell storyline is this meandering mess that never quite gets anywhere interesting but for a few brief moments that got hyped way out of proportion over the years :)
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Ixtellor » Thu Apr 28, 2016 5:14 pm UTC

As someone who doesn't read the books (I'm waiting till after the series - because I don't want to spoil it for myself) I enjoyed the Dorne plot direction in the last episode. I think it will lead to interesting conflicts and creates another badass female character('s with the daughters) to root for or against.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby SlyReaper » Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:57 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Thing is, before they started offing people, they were kind of sympathetic. I was rooting for them to raise an army and give what's left of the Lannisters a bloody nose. Now, I no longer care, because it turns out they're just as nasty. It has actually made that entire plot-line less interesting as a result. It also makes killing Myrcella at the end of Season 5 completely pointless. It was ostensibly to provoke the Lannisters into a rage, but since they clearly planned to stage a coup anyway, why bother? They now have control over Dorne and have any number of options for provoking or attacking Lannisters.

Also, isn't "kin-slaying" supposed to be a massive taboo in Westeros? Certainly not something you do as casually as what they did to Tristain. Toying with him by letting him think it was a 1v1 duel. Bickering afterwards because the one at the back stole the other one's kill, as if they're playing a game. That's fucked up no matter how you look at it.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Ixtellor » Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:25 pm UTC

Spoiler:
1) I have not gotten the impression of "kin-killing is bad". There has been lots of hostilities between blood. I'm not very anal about the show and I can think of several examples.

2) Killing the daughter was pure revenge for Oberyon and the rape of their other family members by the Mountain who the Lannisters then hired to kill Oberyon. It makes perfect sense to take something precious from them. The killing of the king is a separate issue but clearly triggered by some of the events.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Lazar » Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:38 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:
Spoiler:
1) I have not gotten the impression of "kin-killing is bad". There has been lots of hostilities between blood. I'm not very anal about the show and I can think of several examples.

Spoiler:
No, without spoiling anything (because I don't think this is a particular point of difference between the two media), I can tell you it's well established in the ASOIAF universe that kinslaying is reviled. It's one of the top taboos, along with breaking guest right. You might have some leeway for killing someone from a separate but related house, like when Robb executes Rickard Karstark, but killing within your own house is definitely seen as not cool. Stannis is reviled for killing Renly, and Tyrion even more so for killing his father.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Lucrece » Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:48 pm UTC

Plus it's not kinslaying from bad blood, like you might have between the Hound and the Mountain. Trystane did virtually ZERO to earn any kind of ill will; he wasn't even part of his father's politics. He was just a chivalrous young boy, who was merciful and showed love of family. And apparently that family love was not returned for some made up reason, because I cannot conceive of a world in which anyone is indifferent to the cousin they grew up with to the point of doing what they did.

It just pissed me off beyond anything else this show has done. This was an innocent boy, who was FAMILY, and didn't figure into any vengeful equation. It just seemed outright gratuitous and vexing beyond reason.

It also makes no sense whatsoever, because by last season we see the Sand Snakes at the port as the boat departs with Jaime, Trystane, and Myrcella, and somehow via some teleportation magic the Sand Snakes managed to find themselves on that boat. How? And how did Trystane not become a captive to Jaime? If he didn't become a captive, how come he couldn't just be escorted right back with Jaime's entourage to directly meet his father instead of a raven message?

The whole thing just made no sense.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby freezeblade » Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:55 pm UTC

Spoiler:
SlyReaper wrote:Also, isn't "kin-slaying" supposed to be a massive taboo in Westeros? Certainly not something you do as casually as what they did to Tristain. Toying with him by letting him think it was a 1v1 duel. Bickering afterwards because the one at the back stole the other one's kill, as if they're playing a game. That's fucked up no matter how you look at it.

I feel like this was included to show that the sand snakes are Sociopaths or The Starscream with perhaps a bit of Revenge before reason thrown in.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Lucrece » Mon May 02, 2016 2:50 am UTC

They seem rather fond of turning brilliant tacticians in the books into myopic idiots. Can't believe they went and repeated their idiot conversion routine on Roose Bolton much like Doran Martell.

Spoiler:
Like, the Lord of a House was just killed by a bastard in front of the son of an ally, and nothing even happened. Talk about shitty plot armor.


Adding to that, Euron Greyjoy was hideously miscast. He was supposed to be this twisted, seductive handsome psychopath and they just cast a homely guy with little presence. I like that actor from Borgen, but he's no Euron Greyjoy.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon May 02, 2016 2:52 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:They seem rather fond of turning brilliant tacticians in the books into myopic idiots. Can't believe they went and repeated their idiot conversion routine on Roose Bolton much like Doran Martell.

Spoiler:
Like, the Lord of a House was just killed by a bastard in front of the son of an ally, and nothing even happened. Talk about shitty plot armor.


Adding to that, Euron Greyjoy was hideously miscast. He was supposed to be this twisted, seductive handsome psychopath and they just cast a homely guy with little presence. I like that actor from Borgen, but he's no Euron Greyjoy.


Spoiler:
I'm pretty sure the leeches that sucked king's blood thrown into a fire instantly dissolve your plot armor.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby SlyReaper » Mon May 02, 2016 12:04 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Thank fuck they revived Jon, I thought they were going to draw that plot out over the entire season.

Now if I understand correctly, the Nights Watch oath ends with death, right? So now Jon is technically free (the best kind of free) to take his wildling BFFs and go kick some Bolton ass. Dis gon be gud.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby setzer777 » Mon May 02, 2016 2:52 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:The whole thing just made no sense.


Especially since they seemed to imply that the Sand Snakes would take over Dorne, despite giving no indication that they had a popular following or that anyone would accept the younger son's bastards or their mother as rulers.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon May 02, 2016 3:52 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:
Spoiler:
Thank fuck they revived Jon, I thought they were going to draw that plot out over the entire season.

Now if I understand correctly, the Nights Watch oath ends with death, right? So now Jon is technically free (the best kind of free) to take his wildling BFFs and go kick some Bolton ass. Dis gon be gud.


Spoiler:
Is there any reason why Melisandre's vision can't be 100% correct? If Stannis gets resurrected and then joins Jon as a commander, then Davos, Stannis, Jon and the Wildlings can retake Winterfell (finally)
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby LaserGuy » Mon May 02, 2016 7:34 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:
Spoiler:
Thank fuck they revived Jon, I thought they were going to draw that plot out over the entire season.

Now if I understand correctly, the Nights Watch oath ends with death, right? So now Jon is technically free (the best kind of free) to take his wildling BFFs and go kick some Bolton ass. Dis gon be gud.


Spoiler:
Is there any reason why Melisandre's vision can't be 100% correct? If Stannis gets resurrected and then joins Jon as a commander, then Davos, Stannis, Jon and the Wildlings can retake Winterfell (finally)


There might be a problem with that...
Spoiler:
When Thoros was talking about resurrection with Arya way back in Season 2 (3?), he told her that a person without a head could not be resurrected (Ned was also decomposed, but Stannis likely would be similarly so at this point). Although we don't know for certain, it stands to reason that Brienne would have beheaded Stannis, given that's the typical way executions are done in Westeros.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Lucrece » Tue May 03, 2016 1:36 am UTC

Remember Roose recovered Stannis's body as said by the first episode of the season, so if the Boltons got his body it's pretty implied it's not exactly in resurrection shape.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby maybeagnostic » Wed May 04, 2016 10:00 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:Adding to that, Euron Greyjoy was hideously miscast. He was supposed to be this twisted, seductive handsome psychopath...

I suppose he was meant to be that in the books. I am just disappointed they decided to go ahead with the Ironborn story at all. Hopefully its better handled than the Dorne mess.

The Ramsay twist feels like rushing to the good bits. I totally expect the books getting to the same situation (Snow vs Snow fight in DA NORF) in a much more roundabout and complicated manner.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Diadem » Thu May 05, 2016 9:26 pm UTC

Why do people consider the Dorne story such a mess? It's a lot different from the books, but that's not the same thing. I liked the bonding between Jaime and Bronn, and the rest was pretty much background scenery anyway. I'm a bit confused about the direction they've taken this season, but I'll withhold judgement until I see it unfold.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Dark567 » Thu May 05, 2016 9:36 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Why do people consider the Dorne story such a mess? It's a lot different from the books, but that's not the same thing. I liked the bonding between Jaime and Bronn, and the rest was pretty much background scenery anyway. I'm a bit confused about the direction they've taken this season, but I'll withhold judgement until I see it unfold.

Season 6 spoilers:
Spoiler:
The Sand Snakes are caricatures, not built out. The reason why Elleria and crew are willing to kill Doran seem extreme... They are pissed Doran isn't doing enough to take vengeance on for Oberyn( :( ) but are willing to kill Oberyn's brother? Why would the rest of Dorne go along. It just seems poorly laid out and thought through, and the fact that the books portray Dorne with a lot of intrigue and Doran having this master plan, just makes it all that much worse.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Diadem » Thu May 05, 2016 9:57 pm UTC

But that's season 6, not season 5 (and you might want to put that in spoiler tags).

Like I said, I'm concerned about that plot twist as well. But people hated the Dorne storyline even before season 6 started.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby LaserGuy » Thu May 05, 2016 11:28 pm UTC

My impression is that complaints about the Dorne plot generally fall into two categories:
-Book readers complain that the show plot is a complete bastardization of what happened in the books, and the personalities and motives of the characters are completely different.
-Show-only people are baffled as to why another faction needed to be introduced, and don't really care about anybody on the Dornish side anyway (except maybe the hot one).

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Dark567 » Fri May 06, 2016 6:07 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:-Show-only people are baffled as to why another faction needed to be introduced, and don't really care about anybody on the Dornish side anyway (except maybe the hot one).

Show watchers cared a lot about Oberyn.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby maybeagnostic » Mon May 09, 2016 7:09 am UTC

Diadem wrote:Like I said, I'm concerned about that plot twist as well. But people hated the Dorne storyline even before season 6 started.

Too many of the Dorne scenes in Season 5 just fell flat. The Sand Snakes were the main antagonists there and they just weren't compelling especially compared to the Boltons and Cersei. Granted, I followed discussion per episode and read a lot of very critical opinions on every single scene they were in so that might have biased me some more.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Lucrece » Tue May 10, 2016 2:30 am UTC

Well, it started with the utterly stereotypical way of handling the Sand Snakes as foreign temptresses.

Tyene was turned from a blonde, light skinned daughter of a septa into this Middle-Eastern stereotype, because for some reason American media if not Americans at large seem to think that every other country is monoracial and ethnicity= race, so obviously we can't have people believe someone is of a Middle Eastern archetype if they are blond hand have light eyes.

The casting of the Sand Snakes also fell flat as they lacked Oberyn's charisma or even that of Indira's Ellaria. Instead, we received a caricature of teenage femme fatales, and they went and turned Ellaria into a spiteful dimwit.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby LaserGuy » Tue May 10, 2016 5:40 pm UTC

Did anybody else feel that the writing in Episode 3 was a bit off? The scene with Tyrion, Missandre and Grey Worm in particular was quite terrible, and a lot of the scenes on the Wall felt kind of weird to me too. Maybe it's just because everyone's reactions to what should have been a fairly profound event seemed kind of like "Yup, that happened. Makes sense."

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby KnightExemplar » Wed May 11, 2016 3:00 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Did anybody else feel that the writing in Episode 3 was a bit off? The scene with Tyrion, Missandre and Grey Worm in particular was quite terrible, and a lot of the scenes on the Wall felt kind of weird to me too. Maybe it's just because everyone's reactions to what should have been a fairly profound event seemed kind of like "Yup, that happened. Makes sense."


The plot has gone from decompressed style to compressed style. I don't think its terrible, but its clear that the screenwriters are accelerating things.

Something like the Tyrion and Grey Worm scene kinda felt out of place in the faster-pace 6th season, but I don't think it'd be something out of place if it were in another season. With so many plot points being pushed forward now, it feels odd to hone in on Tyrion smalltalk.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed May 11, 2016 11:55 am UTC

It was a comic relief scene. I felt it was kind of funny and appropriate, and it also underlined a reasonable-ish deal about each of their personalities, though I didn't like that Gray Worm and Missandre's contribution was 'my life has kind of sucked'.

Anyone see the crazy fan theory about Bran?
Spoiler:
Bran shouts at Ned in his vision, and Ned turns around, like he's heard something. The Three Eyed Raven says that he can't change the past, but also sort of cautions him to not try to, indicating that maaaaaaaaaybe the ink isn't really dry, so to speak.

Theory - Bran can change the past, and tries to undo the events that leads to all of this shit that split apart the kingdom, such as the Mad King losing his mind. So Bran keeps visiting him, and tell him to stop doing all this shit, but the Mad King only hears whispers, which causes him to go mad...

Also, The Three Eyed Raven is Bran from the future trying to teach him to not do this.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Flumble » Wed May 11, 2016 12:15 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Anyone see the crazy fan theory about Bran?
Spoiler:
Bran shouts at Ned in his vision, and Ned turns around, like he's heard something. The Three Eyed Raven says that he can't change the past, but also sort of cautions him to not try to, indicating that maaaaaaaaaybe the ink isn't really dry, so to speak.

Theory - Bran can change the past, and tries to undo the events that leads to all of this shit that split apart the kingdom, such as the Mad King losing his mind. So Bran keeps visiting him, and tell him to stop doing all this shit, but the Mad King only hears whispers, which causes him to go mad...

Also, The Three Eyed Raven is Bran from the future trying to teach him to not do this.

Spoiler:
Anyone who's seen Doctor Who knows that time has fixed points; points in time that cannot be rewritten.

And that fixed points can be rewritten. :roll:

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby maybeagnostic » Wed May 11, 2016 12:45 pm UTC

I like the slight twist on the theory where
Spoiler:
it was Bloodraven that tried to communicate to Aerys and ended up feeding his paranoia. Like he'd hear these distant whispers about betrayal and the names of all the Northern high lords and his son but that just made him suspect absolutely everyone.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Diadem » Thu May 12, 2016 10:35 am UTC

Or a bigger twist
Spoiler:
Bran does successfully communicate with past-Ned, warns him about everything is going to happen. Ned arranges for Robert to catch Cersei and Jaime in the act, back in Winterfell. Bran never loses his legs, Cersei and Jaime are executed, Ned has Bolton executed, and everybody else lives happily ever after. The last scene of the series will be George R. R. Martin staring directly into the camera, smiling.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Flumble » Thu May 12, 2016 11:02 am UTC

But Jaime is quite a good guy, he doesn't need to be executed. :(

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Chen » Thu May 12, 2016 11:44 am UTC

Flumble wrote:But Jaime is quite a good guy, he doesn't need to be executed. :(


Yeah I'm pretty sure sleeping with the Queen (while not being the King) and getting that exposed is not a good way to continue living, even if you were to forget about the additional incest part.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu May 12, 2016 1:29 pm UTC

Flumble wrote:But Jaime is quite a good guy, he doesn't need to be executed. :(
You know, just another perspective, but I don't think Cersei is through and through evil. One thing that I find so dangerous about The Sparrow is that he's only speaking truthfully, and is correct when he says to Tommen that Cersei truly loves him. (EDIT: I loved the audacity he displayed when he asked Tommen if he could sit in their conversation. That dude has some chutzpah.)

Cersei is an example of someone who does horrible, terrible things motivated frequently by a very pure and noble cause. She loves her children, Jaime, and her name, and will do what it takes to protect them. I find her quite a bit less hateful than most do I think.
Last edited by Izawwlgood on Thu May 12, 2016 1:36 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Dark567 » Thu May 12, 2016 1:32 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Cersei is an example of someone who does horrible, terrible things motivated frequently by a very pure and noble cause. She loves her children, Jaime, and her name, and will do what it takes to protect them. I find her quite a bit less hateful than most do I think.
The real issue is that Cersei goes to the point of paranoia in protecting her kids, so much so that it actually probably significantly hurts them.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu May 12, 2016 1:40 pm UTC

No doubt - I'm not saying her judgement is always sound or her actions reasonable. I'm just saying that one of the things I appreciate about her is that her motivations are her childrens safety and wellbeing, first and foremost, and that is a cause I find fairly noble. I think that's one of the strengths of GRRMs writing of many of these characters, that they're not binary opposites facing off on a Good/Evil character sheet. They have real motivations, and aren't just caricatures of archetypal villains.

Cersei is not Malificent. She's Snow Whites mother if Snow Whites father had been dead.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Flumble » Thu May 12, 2016 1:44 pm UTC

I absolutely agree that Cersei is not evil per se (Ramsay comes closest to fitting that description, since he's exceptionally sadistic), but she is vengeful and has made some terrible decisions.
Then again, going by the bigger twist
Spoiler:
she hadn't made any particularly bad decisions before their sex in Winterfell, so at that point both deserved death equally well.


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