Avengers!

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue May 05, 2015 11:04 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Spoiler:
BW - Oh, I don't think the statement was 'I'm a monster because I can't have children', I think the statement was 'I'm a woman who can't have children, and that lets me be a monster'. It seems a borderline iffy-ish line to me, and sure, her guilt is over her murderific past, but then there's the whole chumming with Hawkeye's family and having a kid named after her and being maaaaaaybe jealous of Hawkeye's wife's maternity? It was just kind of a sloppy point.

Which is a real shame, because the way they were building with Hulk there was the potential for some characterization, but instead, we get Tony Starks admittedly awesome Hulk Buster Suit beating up some city an enraged-er Hulk.

Ultimately, it just seemed kind of pointless. It was backstory in a that somehow managed to NOT increase our connection to the character, because in the same sequence that humanized her (choices made for her, she's tough but sensitive, a shitty Russian all girls assassins Hogwarts), it also demonized her (she's a fucking assassin who I guess is a monster because she doesn't feel guilt? or does now? because of some weird magic vision/mindfuck?).



Re:BW
Spoiler:
Well, it comes up because Banner can't have kids. She's meeting his objections. He can't have kids, she can't have kids. He views himself as a monster, she views herself the same way. There's a symmetry there. Yeah, I think she does want a family. Maybe not kids, per se, but the issue of her belonging or not is a constant theme, not even just in this movie, and not merely with respect to kids. In Cap 2, she's interested in getting cap set up with someone, in here, she's interested in Bruce. Remember back in the original Avengers, when Hawkeye questions why she's here, with all these people who are...not like her?

Her answer isn't that she belongs. It's that she feels guilt over the terrible things she's done.

The magic didn't make her this way. It merely brought the existing fear back to the surface. Just as it did for everyone else.




Spoiler:
The whole Scarlet Witch mind control thing was just extremely poorly handled - I wish they'd done away with it entirely and used some other mechanism to have the Avengers discussing their pasts and motivations.

Where they supposed to be 'visions of your fears' or 'visions of the future'? Why not just place Iron Man in a room of decadence and alcohol and talk about his struggles with addiction? Why not have Thor watch his mother die and the laughing face of Loki as Asgard burns? Shouldn't Steve be failing to protect people, everyone, instead of... kind of realizing he likes the fight and couldn't step away from it?


Skipping spoilers now, because...well, it's the movie thread, and this isn't THAT spoileriffic anyway.

Straight up visions of your fears. Steve's fear isn't failing. Look at him when he contemplates a fight they can't win. That doesn't phase him in the slightest. His recurring theme is that he's the person out of place. Look at literally everything he's in. He's portrayed as not fitting in whenever he's outside of a military context, and he explicitly finds confort in a military setting. They basically use the same "hey, military guys marching, I feel at home now" bit that they used in exactly the same way in Avengers 1. He's not afraid of fighting, or even afraid of losing. He's afraid of the fight ending.

Likewise, Tony is not defined by his fear of alcohol. Or at least, MCU Tony isn't. MCU Tony basically has PTSD, as seen in Iron Man 3, and the resulting insecurities, etc from that are ALL over this movie. He IS afraid of the fight.

And that basic split will probably drive the Civil War plot.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Adacore » Tue May 05, 2015 11:46 pm UTC

On the Black Widow discussion:
Spoiler:
I agree with Izawwlgood's interpretation. Banner can biologically have kids, but there's no way he'll let himself have kids, because his 'monster' side would make it too dangerous. Black Widow also considers herself a monster, but because of all the assassin stuff, not because she can't have kids. The sterility thing is just a factor that makes the two of them more compatible.

The relationship as a whole was poorly handled in the movie, though. It's a clever idea, and potentially quite interesting to explore, but it didn't really work, and I didn't really feel that they had any chemistry.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby PolakoVoador » Wed May 06, 2015 6:51 pm UTC

charliepanayi wrote:
Spoiler:
All the Avengers vs all the Ultrons - what the Burly Brawl wished it had been. I was giddy with glee at the shot panning around with them all fighting.

Favourite moment in the film - Vision picks up Thor's hammer, moment of complete bewilderment from everyone else.


Spoiler:
Yes, that slow-mo sequence of everybody beating the crap out of everything was ridiculous and awesome. I loved it. It was, of course, pointless since all the team just went on to do other stuff while a surviving robot just nudges the McGuffin switch to the "Down" position. But that kind of scene is one of the reasons I watch superhero movies: I want to see ridiculous over-the-top action. A fine scene, I say.

Re Vision and the hammer: the whole thing was part of a very good world building. Lots of people from the audience went "Wow..." when it happened. I don't remember the last time I heard such reaction from a movie's audience (apart from laughing at good jokes or opening nights when the crowd is usually louder).

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Jorpho » Fri May 08, 2015 1:48 pm UTC

I have the distinct impression that I might have been better off waiting for what will probably be a 200-minute Director's Cut. Whedon has said that making the film was really hard on him and I thought it was pretty obvious that great swaths of material were taken out – a teensy bit reminiscent of Jupiter Ascending in that regard. It's surprising the film holds together as well as it does – which isn't all that well, but it could have been much worse.
Last edited by Jorpho on Fri May 08, 2015 5:34 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Diadem » Fri May 08, 2015 2:33 pm UTC

It is really a shame that Whedon is leaving.

The next Avengers movie is Infinity Wars. Those movies (it's a 2 parter) should be an awesome culmination of the entire Marvel Cinematic Universe, something they have worked towards over 20 movies. But if I look at who they brought on board for writing or directing them, I'm not optimistic. It's basically the team from Winter Soldier. That wasn't a bad movie, but it was rather confused, despite a straightforward story and few characters. How will they handle something as complicated as infinity wars? I fear the worst.

This time next year we get Captain America: Civil War, written and directed by the same group. That movie is basically Avengers 2.5, since it has the entire Avengers 2 cast except the Hulk and Thor. So we'll see how that goes.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Chen » Fri May 08, 2015 2:35 pm UTC

I think the most disjoined part was Thor's little storyline. I feel that could definitely have used a solid 15-20 more minutes dedicated to it because it really felt out of place in the final cut.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri May 08, 2015 5:35 pm UTC

Jorpho wrote:I have the distinct impression that I might have been better off waiting for what will probably be a 200-minute Director's Cut. Whedon has said that making the film was really hard on him and I thought it was pretty obvious that great swaths of material were taken out – a teensy bit reminiscent of Jupiter Ascending in that regard. It's surprising the film holds together as well as it does – which isn't all that well, but it could have been much worse.


Yeah, upon rewatching it, as Thor tells Mr Selvig he needs him, I couldn't help muttering "but only to hold a box".

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Jorpho » Fri May 08, 2015 5:55 pm UTC

I should add that it was kind of refreshing that the big climactic moment seem to involve a thoroughly miscellaneous European burg rather than London or New York or San Francisco or whatever (though for that matter Seoul looked pretty miscellaneous too). It's kind of like having a Doctor Who season finale that doesn't involve the entirety of existence teetering in the balance. But I'm sure there was a lot of backstory lost there, too – there was a brief shot of some graffiti at the very beginning when the Iron Legion was flying around. (For that matter, I was kind of waiting for a little soliloquy on the relative ineffectiveness of the Iron Legion, but I guess that was tossed aside too.)

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Zohar » Fri May 08, 2015 9:41 pm UTC

Really? I was kind of bothered by the whole "the only cities that get destroyed are the ones where the Americans don't live" thing.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Zarq » Fri May 08, 2015 11:38 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Really? I was kind of bothered by the whole "the only cities that get destroyed are the ones where the Americans don't live" thing.


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Re: Avengers!

Postby Zohar » Sat May 09, 2015 12:45 am UTC

It just seemed very "all these western white people are destroying fictionalized Africa/Korea/fictionalized backwards eastern European people". Wouldn't have hurt to have one of the scenes in an American city.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Gopher of Pern » Sat May 09, 2015 1:48 am UTC

Umm, Avengers Assemble had the final battle in New York. Whats wrong with going for a more international feel?
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Jorpho » Sat May 09, 2015 3:46 am UTC

Depicting fictionalized Africa as a thriving urban community is so progressive that I reckon a significant proportion of viewers will be downright confused.

ETA: Now that I think about it some more, on the whole the casual disregard for collateral damage and attempts at character depth bring to mind nothing so much as the old Sunbow GI Joe cartoons. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that; that series had a certain silly appeal.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Angua » Sat May 09, 2015 7:26 am UTC

Zohar wrote:It just seemed very "all these western white people are destroying fictionalized Africa/Korea/fictionalized backwards eastern European people". Wouldn't have hurt to have one of the scenes in an American city.

How were the eastern European people portrayed as backwards?

I mean, let's look back - CAptain America 2 did damage to DC, Thor 2 damaged London, Iron Man 3 was pretty much US only, Avengers took out a lot of new york, Thor was a town in New Mexico, Captain America was NY and Western Europe, Iron man 2 was mainly in NY again (there was a bit of Europe at the beginning), Hulk was NY (though a little of Rio as well) and Iron Man was Iraq/Afghanistan (I can't remember which one) and then LA.

I enjoyed seeing more of the world than just America/Western Europe. It's nice to know that Ultron needed resources and had to go somewhere else (also, getting African resources from someone who was literally branded a thief, there's probably a metaphor in there) to get them. There was no point in Ultron staying in the US if there was an empty one with robot making capacity in Segovia, and it makes sense that Hydra wouldn't be spending their time under the US' nose. And, yeah, I guess the really smart doctor with the super machine could have been easily American, but isn't it great that they went with a progressive city that never gets shown (main city we ever get in Eastern Asia, especially if you're going tech stuff, is Tokyo).

And sure, part of the city got destroyed (though if you look, the whole city doesn't lift out of the ground) but it's nice to know that the Avengers and Shield will still devote time and effort (and a helicarrier) to saving people who are generally not even a blip on the rest of the world's radar.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Hawknc » Sat May 09, 2015 9:00 am UTC

Jorpho wrote:Depicting fictionalized Africa as a thriving urban community is so progressive that I reckon a significant proportion of viewers will be downright confused.

...What? Real Africa has thriving urban communities. Here's Jo'burg, Nairobi and Lagos, for starters.

For all the things that I didn't like about AoU, it showed the Avengers defending parts of the world that don't get shown often, which I thought was kind of cool.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Angua » Sat May 09, 2015 9:34 am UTC

Hawknc wrote:
Jorpho wrote:Depicting fictionalized Africa as a thriving urban community is so progressive that I reckon a significant proportion of viewers will be downright confused.

...What? Real Africa has thriving urban communities. Here's Jo'burg, Nairobi and Lagos, for starters.

For all the things that I didn't like about AoU, it showed the Avengers defending parts of the world that don't get shown often, which I thought was kind of cool.

I'm pretty sure Jorpho's point was that generally when we see Africa it's either starving children or in a rural tribal sort of setting, and that it's a good thing to also show that African has thriving urban communities.

edit- incidentally, this is also feeds into the problem I have with the 'first world problems' meme.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Hawknc » Sat May 09, 2015 10:23 am UTC

That is reasonable. It just seemed fairly obvious to me, but maybe it isn't to some people?

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Re: Avengers!

Postby roband » Sat May 09, 2015 11:01 am UTC

Zohar wrote:Really? I was kind of bothered by the whole "the only cities that get destroyed are the ones where the Americans don't live" thing.

Urgh, push harder for a reason to complain. It was probably chosen because they'd have to tie in more follow up (in shows like Daredevil or other sequel movies) if it's in a city likely to be shown in those. Which makes their job harder. They chose Africa because it's pre-established that that's where Vibranium comes from.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Zohar » Sat May 09, 2015 1:22 pm UTC

Thank you for respecting my opinion roband, that's very considerate.

Guys, I didn't say it was bad that the movie goes to other places in the world. I said I didn't like how in this movie (not Iron Man 2 or whatever, talking about this one), there was a bunch of white dudes from America (OK, Thor's not American) going around destroying cities that are not-America. It would have been cool to have one battle, out of the 17 action scenes or whatever, take place in the US. It doesn't make the movie terrible, or racist, or an abomination or anything. It's a thing that bugged me.

I know we're on the internet but when I sayI don't like a thing it doesn't mean I hate it and wish all memory of it burned from my mind. Stuff can be complex, and I can like some things and dislike other things in the same source material.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Jorpho » Sat May 09, 2015 2:23 pm UTC

Angua wrote:Thor 2 damaged London
I was going to say "Greenwich!" but it turns out Greenwich is in London. Huh.

Hawknc wrote:
I'm pretty sure Jorpho's point was that generally when we see Africa it's either starving children or in a rural tribal sort of setting, and that it's a good thing to also show that African has thriving urban communities.

edit- incidentally, this is also feeds into the problem I have with the 'first world problems' meme.
That is reasonable. It just seemed fairly obvious to me, but maybe it isn't to some people?
I would hope it would be obvious to everyone, but that seems awfully optimistic.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Angua » Sat May 09, 2015 3:10 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Thank you for respecting my opinion roband, that's very considerate.

Guys, I didn't say it was bad that the movie goes to other places in the world. I said I didn't like how in this movie (not Iron Man 2 or whatever, talking about this one), there was a bunch of white dudes from America (OK, Thor's not American) going around destroying cities that are not-America. It would have been cool to have one battle, out of the 17 action scenes or whatever, take place in the US. It doesn't make the movie terrible, or racist, or an abomination or anything. It's a thing that bugged me.


Yeah, but literally every other thing in the MCU movies has taken place in the West. You can't just take this one out of context of the fact that all we get, all the time, is America/America/America/London!

Also, black widow is Russian, and we had the scarlet witch and quicksilver who were from Sergovia. And at least the new avengers seems to be a more diverse cast now.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Zohar » Sat May 09, 2015 3:15 pm UTC

Yes? There are also good things about this, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I said?
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Angua » Sat May 09, 2015 3:37 pm UTC

You emphasised that you weren't talking about Iron Man 2 etc, and only this movie. I'm saying you can't really take this one out of context of the others, because most of the others have been USA all the way.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Zohar » Sat May 09, 2015 3:42 pm UTC

And I would disagree?
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Angua » Sat May 09, 2015 3:49 pm UTC

Yeah, I get that.

However, when you responded the first time with yes? that's what I said? it sounded like you'd somehow missed my point.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Zarq » Sat May 09, 2015 5:12 pm UTC

By the way, it's Slorenia, not Segovia. Segovia is a city in Spain.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby roband » Sat May 09, 2015 5:21 pm UTC

It's actually Sokovia

edit: in the movie at least, it looks like Zarq might be right about the comics. Or something.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Angua » Sat May 09, 2015 5:38 pm UTC

roband wrote:It's actually Sokovia

edit: in the movie at least, it looks like Zarq might be right about the comics. Or something.

Thanks my hearing processing is not always the best.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby roband » Sat May 09, 2015 5:39 pm UTC

Eh, I blame the American accents. I had to google it.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat May 09, 2015 6:02 pm UTC

I think you guys are also forgetting the sxne where the iron legion tries to dispense the crowd, and people throw rotten fruit at them.

The point being the avengers as white america capitalist 'saviors' was something this world is very much wrestling with.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby roband » Sat May 09, 2015 6:04 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I think you guys are also forgetting the sxne where the iron legion tries to dispense the crowd, and people throw rotten fruit at them.

The point being the avengers as white america capitalist 'saviors' was something this world is very much wrestling with.

That scene didn't make any sense anyway. There was graffiti on the wall with the iron legion robots and a cross over them. Why was that specific town already familiar with them?

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Angua » Sat May 09, 2015 6:11 pm UTC

It sounded like the avengers had been going on missions with each other before this one - maybe the iron legion robots have just been getting a lot of press?
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Diadem » Sat May 09, 2015 6:26 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:It just seemed very "all these western white people are destroying fictionalized Africa/Korea/fictionalized backwards eastern European people". Wouldn't have hurt to have one of the scenes in an American city.

I don't think describing the Avengers as "White western" is entirely fair.
Captain America, Thor en Iron Man are obviously white and western, true. But Black Widow is eastern, Quick Silver and Scarlet witch are also eastern and The Hulk is green (Sorry, I couldn't resist making that joke. But more to the point, Bruce Banner is Indian). As secondary characters we have quite a few minorities too (Fury, War Machine and Falcon are all black, and Helen Cho is Asian). It's a stretch to call it progressive, but it's certainly a much more diverse cast than most movies.

Anyway, personally, I always enjoy seeing other places than (US, London, Paris, Moscow, Tokyo) in movies. And I really don't care that they are blowing the place up. It's a super hero movie. Things are supposed to explode.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Zohar » Sat May 09, 2015 7:59 pm UTC

What? How is Bruce Banner Indian? Both Bruce Banner and Mark Ruffalo are Americans, I'm not sure what you meant by that comment. Hawkeye is American as well. And in the movies, Natasha is hardly Russian - she's American who happens to have a somewhat Russian name and some people in her flashbacks have a Russian accent. As for the other characters, they're not really Avengers, or they become Avengers in the last five minutes of the movie. The team is very, very white.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Angua » Sat May 09, 2015 9:04 pm UTC

Yeah, Bruce Banner was only hiding out in India.

Natasha is definitely Russian though - she has said it explicitly and was trained by a Russian program. The Widow program people are trained not to have a Russian accent when speaking English from an early age.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby rmsgrey » Sun May 10, 2015 4:11 am UTC

And there was the fight scene with Ultron stealing the scepter in Avengers Tower...

There is a valid point about the Avengers being very much an American team fighting a fairly vicious war against an international terrorist organisation - and it makes sense for them not to be as popular in the places where Stark munitions get used indiscriminately - which is addressed in the movie.

On the other hand, as Angua pointed out, this movie is part of the MCU and, in the MCU as a whole, the balance is tilted the other way.

Also there are a couple of fights in Avengers Tower...

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Zohar » Sun May 10, 2015 4:34 am UTC

I agree with all of your points, and I think it's cool the movie took the fight to the international stage, I just think it took it too far. And the fight in the Avengers tower doesn't compare to the amount of destruction in the other cities... And I also think we can look at the movie in multiple ways, both on its own and as a part of an overarching story.

As for Natasha being Russian in the movie - to be honest I didn't even remember that was ever mentioned until we saw her flashbacks. It might be my faulty memory or possibly the movies don't play that very strongly. I would guess it's a little of both. I'm not sure how many people who are not familiar with the comics would say she's Russian after having seen the various movies.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby SecondTalon » Sun May 10, 2015 6:28 am UTC

roband wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:I think you guys are also forgetting the sxne where the iron legion tries to dispense the crowd, and people throw rotten fruit at them.

The point being the avengers as white america capitalist 'saviors' was something this world is very much wrestling with.

That scene didn't make any sense anyway. There was graffiti on the wall with the iron legion robots and a cross over them. Why was that specific town already familiar with them?


Dollar signs. The spraypaint was Iron Man with Dollar Signs over him. The symbolism there should be obvious to a first grader. I also thought it was apparent that this was a common tactic of Tony at this point - use the legion to minimize casualties (and continue the Marvel movie tradition of "Really, Man of Steel? Really?" regarding casual slaughter of innocent civilians)

And Thor In The Pool was straight up Jack Kirby all up in your face and I loved it for that. Unexplained mysticism that scholars and Gods know all about. Sit in some water, trip balls and see the future. Jack Kirby.

The slo-mo shot was a two-page spread from a comic. It at least an homage to the idea.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Angua » Sun May 10, 2015 7:49 am UTC

In the first Avengers it went something like, "Regimes come and go every day. I'm Russian - we tend not to cry about that."
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Carlington
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Carlington » Sun May 10, 2015 8:37 am UTC

I'm not sure whether you guys picked up on this, it's not clear from how your posts have been worded, but the city-in-the-air thing was not just "let's destroy this one city, because fuck this thing in particular", but rather "I'll drop this city from high enough up that it will be like a meteor strike and wipe out all life" - considerable bigger.

I agree with Zohar - I think that the international aspect of this film could've been done a little more tactfully, although I do see what they were going for and can see that it would be difficult to communicate that idea that Ultron is literally everywhere without doing it this way. The idea of an omnipresent baddie is a tough one to carry out on screen, and when that's considered I think they did the best that could be expected, on balance.

There's something that's stuck with me since first seeing it, and no matter which way I look at it, it's not okay: Stark's "prima noctae" line which is pretty obviously meant to be "jus primae noctis" and is 100% not a cool thing to throw in there, not least because it's out-of-character for Stark, but also because it'll be missed by most of the audience for the rape joke it is. The "firm but fair-ly cruel" line from the trailer was funnier and more Starkesque anyway.
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