Avengers!

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Zarq » Sun May 10, 2015 9:47 am UTC

Carlington wrote: not least because it's out-of-character for Stark,

Maybe for movie-Stark. Comics-Stark is a pretty big asshole.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Carlington » Sun May 10, 2015 10:29 am UTC

I'm not extraordinarily familiar with the comics, admittedly, but I think that even for comic Stark a rape joke would be a stretch. Regardless, we're not really talking about comic Stark, and it being out of character wasn't really my main issue with the line.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby roband » Sun May 10, 2015 12:25 pm UTC

Carlington wrote:There's something that's stuck with me since first seeing it, and no matter which way I look at it, it's not okay: Stark's "prima noctae" line which is pretty obviously meant to be "jus primae noctis" and is 100% not a cool thing to throw in there, not least because it's out-of-character for Stark, but also because it'll be missed by most of the audience for the rape joke it is. The "firm but fair-ly cruel" line from the trailer was funnier and more Starkesque anyway.

Not a single person reacted to this in either of the cinemas I saw this in. I had to look it up.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Hawknc » Sun May 10, 2015 12:33 pm UTC

Which makes it even stranger. Why would you change the line out for something that only a tiny fraction of your audience will understand - and those that do will probably find it kind of offensive?

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Carlington » Sun May 10, 2015 12:47 pm UTC

Exactly. I didn't know what it was either, so I Googled it too (I am the kind of nerd who makes a note to go home and Google things in films if I don't understand the reference) and I expected to find...well, not that at any rate. I expected to find something genuinely funny. It's offensive in a bizarre way, like they were trying to sneak in jokes that would offend specific subsets of the audience or something.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby roband » Sun May 10, 2015 1:01 pm UTC

I mean, it's a throwback to the fact that Thor (and Asgard, as a whole) is Viking in origin, where rules like that were actually real?
If we assume Stark isn't being serious, then he's bringing up the fact that it used to exist and maybe referring to it being a negative thing, so he's teasing Thor about his ancestry?

Or it's just Stark bringing up sex in any possible situation.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Jorpho » Sun May 10, 2015 5:08 pm UTC

Have none of you folks seen Braveheart?

I remember Tony saying the line, but I can't even remember the context now.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby roband » Sun May 10, 2015 5:09 pm UTC

It was related to the "lifting the hammer" challenge. Stark asks "whoever lifts this rules Asgard?". Thor says yes. Stark then says the line.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby charliepanayi » Sun May 10, 2015 5:53 pm UTC

The only reason why I knew what 'prima nocte' was because it pops up in Braveheart as one of the many Very Evil Things that the cartoon villain English do in the movie. And Terry Pratchett referencing droit du seigneur (basically the same term) in Wyrd Sisters.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby SecondTalon » Sun May 10, 2015 5:59 pm UTC

Carlington wrote:Exactly. I didn't know what it was either, so I Googled it too (I am the kind of nerd who makes a note to go home and Google things in films if I don't understand the reference) and I expected to find...well, not that at any rate. I expected to find something genuinely funny. It's offensive in a bizarre way, like they were trying to sneak in jokes that would offend specific subsets of the audience or something.

I'm assuming it's reinforcing "Tony is an asshole. Drunk Tony triply so" because seriously, Tony is a jerk.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby DreadArchon » Sun May 10, 2015 6:12 pm UTC

roband wrote:Or it's just Stark bringing up sex in any possible situation.


I took it this way.

I do share the notion that this was a rather questionable joke to throw in, regardless of one's level of culture. Those most likely to get the reference seem to also be the most likely to take umbrage.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby rmsgrey » Sun May 10, 2015 10:18 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:And Thor In The Pool was straight up Jack Kirby all up in your face and I loved it for that. Unexplained mysticism that scholars and Gods know all about.


I thought it was pretty clear - it's Midgard's echo of the Well of Mimir - the latter is part of Norse mythology - the place where Odin traded his eye for wisdom; the former is stated in the film (Thor says that there is an echo of the place in each realm).

Okay, I guess most people aren't so genned up on world mythology (I'm a bit hazy on the Polynesian stuff myself)

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Re: Avengers!

Postby SecondTalon » Mon May 11, 2015 12:13 am UTC

Marvel's got a thing called the Well of Wyrd that the various Norse people do stuff in all the time, and that's based on the various Norse wells - Mirmir, Urd, etc. That's where Thor was, either the Well of Wyrd itself or some Midgard version.

And that's Kirby - dropping in stuff like that. He usually tended to explain it better, but that was also in the age where Comics were still being written in the overexplaining style so that readers could pick it up and drop it pretty much at whim and probably not be lost.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby maybeagnostic » Mon May 11, 2015 6:25 am UTC

Jorpho wrote:Have none of you folks seen Braveheart?

I remember Tony saying the line, but I can't even remember the context now.

I second this. I didn't find the joke all that funny but it was a dig at Thor's feudal society and Tony always thinking about sex. Going from what he said to rape is quite a stretch and making asshole jokes is about half of what Stark does whenever he's on screen.

The director's cut would be interesting to see as the movie was way too light on characterization for my taste. Does anyone know what Whedon is moving on to now that he is done with the Avengers? Is he still some kind of central coordinator for all the MCU movies or whatever his role was until now?
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Jorpho » Mon May 11, 2015 1:11 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:The director's cut would be interesting to see as the movie was way too light on characterization for my taste. Does anyone know what Whedon is moving on to now that he is done with the Avengers? Is he still some kind of central coordinator for all the MCU movies or whatever his role was until now?
Judging from this aforementioned article and things like his resignation from Twitter, I suspect he's too exhausted at the moment to know where he's going next.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon May 11, 2015 2:02 pm UTC

Just to make sure I'm on the same page - are you talking about when they were all taking the Mjolnir Challenge, and Tony quipped 'When I pick this up, I'm invoking prima nocta'?

I took that as him making fun of Thor, saying 'haha, look at the stupid archaic rules people of yore had', though, to be fair, who the fuck knows what rules the Asgardians had. I don't think the joke was a 'When I have the hammer I'm raping everyone', especially considering A ) he has the Iron Man suit and isn't raping everyone, and B ) of all the actual sexual harassment and demeaning shit Tony Stark gets up to, this seems an odd one to fixate on.

Anyone remember when Black Widow was first introduced, and Tony pulls up photos of her modeling, and then says "I want one"?
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon May 11, 2015 3:07 pm UTC

Hawknc wrote:Which makes it even stranger. Why would you change the line out for something that only a tiny fraction of your audience will understand - and those that do will probably find it kind of offensive?


*shrug* Braveheart wasn't a particularly obscure film, and it's used there.

roband wrote:I mean, it's a throwback to the fact that Thor (and Asgard, as a whole) is Viking in origin, where rules like that were actually real?
If we assume Stark isn't being serious, then he's bringing up the fact that it used to exist and maybe referring to it being a negative thing, so he's teasing Thor about his ancestry?

Or it's just Stark bringing up sex in any possible situation.


Probably, yes. It's pretty obviously facetious, even within the in-world context. Joking about how obviously you're going to abuse the power because you're obviously going to be successful or whatever fits Tony pretty well. He does the cocky attitude rather a lot. I did not read this as being about rape, and it's kind of a stretch to push it in that direction.

SecondTalon wrote:Marvel's got a thing called the Well of Wyrd that the various Norse people do stuff in all the time, and that's based on the various Norse wells - Mirmir, Urd, etc. That's where Thor was, either the Well of Wyrd itself or some Midgard version.

And that's Kirby - dropping in stuff like that. He usually tended to explain it better, but that was also in the age where Comics were still being written in the overexplaining style so that readers could pick it up and drop it pretty much at whim and probably not be lost.


It was called "The waters of sight" in the movie, so it may or may not map to anything else like that. I do feel like more context got cut here. I mean, why is Selvig holding a box? What's in there, a portal to a glowing briefcase?

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Zohar wrote:It just seemed very "all these western white people are destroying fictionalized Africa/Korea/fictionalized backwards eastern European people". Wouldn't have hurt to have one of the scenes in an American city.

I don't think describing the Avengers as "White western" is entirely fair.
Captain America, Thor en Iron Man are obviously white and western, true. But Black Widow is eastern, Quick Silver and Scarlet witch are also eastern and The Hulk is green (Sorry, I couldn't resist making that joke. But more to the point, Bruce Banner is Indian). As secondary characters we have quite a few minorities too (Fury, War Machine and Falcon are all black, and Helen Cho is Asian). It's a stretch to call it progressive, but it's certainly a much more diverse cast than most movies.


Hell, Agents of Shield has two leading asian women. That's...not exactly common. The MCU as a whole has had a pretty decent mix, especially considering that some characters do trend certain ways. I mean, Stark, being a US industrial titan with a daddy who was also that...him being a white dude isn't a surprise. Or shouldn't be.

I do like that they're bouncing around the world. Upping the stakes to clearly worldwide makes more sense when you're eventually going for a galactic scale. It feels just odd to bounce between galactic spanning events and the same area over and over again(see also, Dr Who).

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Whizbang » Mon May 11, 2015 3:19 pm UTC

I haven't seen the movie, in fact I only watched CA: The Winter Soldier for the first time last week, and plan to watch Guadians of the Galaxy next week. (I know, but I hate theaters and I live with people who are not enthusiastic about superhero movies, so I can only watch them occasionally. Plus I am cheap and usually wait until they are played on some cable movie channel.)

Anyway, my thoughts are the most comic books, and most media in general, got their start in a white male dominated world. So of course their top 5 most popular superheroes are white, and of course the main settings are in popular US cities (NYC being most common). I think any deviation away from that is a good thing and arguing over "but it could have been more/less" seems to be quibbling. As a self described geek who just happens to have never read a comic book in his life but greatly enjoyed the cartoons and video games as a kid, I am loving these films and exposure to less popular heroes like Vision and GotG.

Personally, whenever I do some reading on Marvel Wikis or whatever, I am impressed with the diversity they try to create.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby geobot » Mon May 11, 2015 10:40 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I took that as him making fun of Thor, saying 'haha, look at the stupid archaic rules people of yore had'


That's pretty much how I took it. Then again, I just learned about it a couple months ago from a Duffel Blog article. Something like "1st. Sgt. Invokes 'Primae Noctis'."

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Re: Avengers!

Postby SecondTalon » Tue May 12, 2015 2:37 am UTC

Oh, re:The Twins "new" backstory and origin

Spoiler:
assuming they get the X-Men rights back in the near future, it's be incredibly easy to point out that of the 50 people Hydra attempted to modify, only two survived for some unknown reason (insert crude dialog about their X-factor) and oh, damn, turns out you're mutants and all Hydra did was jumpstart an oddly dormant switch, also you're adopted 'cause here's Sir Ian, your metal bending biological father.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Jorpho » Tue May 12, 2015 6:14 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Oh, re:The Twins "new" backstory and origin

Spoiler:
assuming they get the X-Men rights back in the near future, it's be incredibly easy to point out that of the 50 people Hydra attempted to modify, only two survived for some unknown reason (insert crude dialog about their X-factor) and oh, damn, turns out you're mutants and all Hydra did was jumpstart an oddly dormant switch, also you're adopted 'cause here's Sir Ian, your metal bending biological father.
Eh, they'll play it off as a "zomg there are mutants in an alternate universe" thing, I have no doubt. Marvel totes loves dem multiverses; they wouldn't pass up a chance to feature it on the big screen.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Zarq » Tue May 12, 2015 9:18 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Oh, re:The Twins "new" backstory and origin

Spoiler:
assuming they get the X-Men rights back in the near future, it's be incredibly easy to point out that of the 50 people Hydra attempted to modify, only two survived for some unknown reason (insert crude dialog about their X-factor) and oh, damn, turns out you're mutants and all Hydra did was jumpstart an oddly dormant switch, also you're adopted 'cause here's Sir Ian, your metal bending biological father.


You haven't been following X-Men comics, have you? They're not mutants anymore, and Magneto is not their father.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby SecondTalon » Tue May 12, 2015 1:54 pm UTC

Ehhh, for now. But no, I haven't as the notion of the X-Men is always more interesting than the execution.

Spoiler:
The evidence seems to also rely on Wanda's magic working perfectly. It doesn't. I also wonder on the consequences she wasn't thinking about
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue May 12, 2015 4:55 pm UTC

Non-mutants:
Spoiler:
It's all Inhumans now, far as the eye can see. Weeee.


I am less than enthused about this latest retcon.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby rmsgrey » Tue May 12, 2015 6:15 pm UTC

Let's face it, the XMen and Mutants generally have always had trouble existing alongside the rest of the Marvel universe - in X-comics, mutants are hated and feared by the general population, mutants rights are a hot political topic, discrimination and prejudice are widespread. Swing over to Spiderman, and not a mutant in sight apart from crossovers from the X-Men (etc). It gets even worse when you look at heroes who don't have a major public image problem...

Equally in X-comics, how often do you see someone exhibit strange new powers or deformities, and, rather than rallying the lynch mob, people stop to ask "are you a mutant or a mutate?" let alone discover that they aren't a mutant after all, and let them co-exist peacefully?

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue May 12, 2015 9:33 pm UTC

That's fair. I mean, Avengers are basically big damn heroes, while Xmen are a minority persecution allegory. The two don't mesh well. Hell, fantastic four/xmen don't.

I'm just a little cynical about the inhuman over-explaning. The whole Inhuman thing just...isn't necessary. And is ALSO kind of a mutant like persecution allegory, with a bit of strange racial nationalism thrown in.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby cryptoengineer » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:10 pm UTC

[quote="Carlington"]I'm not sure whether you guys picked up on this, it's not clear from how your posts have been worded, but the city-in-the-air thing was not just "let's destroy this one city, because fuck this thing in particular", but rather "I'll drop this city from high enough up that it will be like a meteor strike and wipe out all life" - considerable bigger.

Fortunately, if you do the math, Ultron's rock isn't big enough, or moving fast enough, to do that. I'll run the math if people insist, but compared to
Chixulub, his rock would have about 1/3,000,000th of the energy of the Chixulub impact. That's enough to make a regional Very Bad Day, but not
even close to a ELE.

To get the same energy as Chixulub, he'd have had to accelerate it to over 2 million mph (again, math on request).

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:12 pm UTC

cryptoengineer wrote:To get the same energy as Chixulub, he'd have had to accelerate it to over 2 million mph (again, math on request).
Your point is wholly valid, but I want to remind you the city was filled with a vibranium engine... How's that play into your math?

YEAH! THATS WHAT I THOUGHT ::micdrop::
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:06 pm UTC

Strictly speaking, while it's extremely easy to infer that he's destroying all life...they are very careful to leave open other possibilities.

He wants life to evolve, not be removed entirely. He wants the Avengers extinct, yes. Humanity...no. Something ELSE is coming which dooms them. He wishes to save them...albeit at a cost of killing a pile, naturally. Fury isn't pointing at HUMANITY wrapped up in a grave...he's talking about our way of life in a grave.

The only potential exception is Friday using the words "global extinction". Note that she preceeds this with "if it gets high enough", which it explicitly is not. That's...a little fuzzy, granted, but the rock definitely got dropped early as is.

And they were crossing 17,000 feet as the helicarrier was deploying lifeboats(explicitly called out) so, they are fairly high indeed. And not a lot of time elapses on the way down. That gives you a pretty good clip, given that Iron Man recovers at essentially ground level.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that this is decently justified as an apocalpytic impact.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Chen » Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:37 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
cryptoengineer wrote:To get the same energy as Chixulub, he'd have had to accelerate it to over 2 million mph (again, math on request).
Your point is wholly valid, but I want to remind you the city was filled with a vibranium engine... How's that play into your math?

YEAH! THATS WHAT I THOUGHT ::micdrop::


If the math shows its around 1/3 000 000th of the energy necessary and the vibranium engine can produce the rest, then it probably would have been FAR easier to just cause the vibranium engine to explode and live without that 1/3 000 000th of the energy you'd lose by not making a convoluted rising city. Hell you wouldn't need thrusters so you'd probably get MORE energy out of it.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby cryptoengineer » Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:25 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:
cryptoengineer wrote:To get the same energy as Chixulub, he'd have had to accelerate it to over 2 million mph (again, math on request).
Your point is wholly valid, but I want to remind you the city was filled with a vibranium engine... How's that play into your math?

YEAH! THATS WHAT I THOUGHT ::micdrop::


If the math shows its around 1/3 000 000th of the energy necessary and the vibranium engine can produce the rest, then it probably would have been FAR easier to just cause the vibranium engine to explode and live without that 1/3 000 000th of the energy you'd lose by not making a convoluted rising city. Hell you wouldn't need thrusters so you'd probably get MORE energy out of it.


To answer Izawwlgood: I don't have a figure on the density of Vibranium, but note that non-supers such as Black Widow are able to
handle Cap's shield without any particular difficulty. The specific density of 3 that I used above was based on the supposed density
of the Chixulub asteroid, which is higher than that of the rock it struck. The densest element we have is Osmium, with a density of
22.6, so about 7x better, which would still leave Ultron out by a five orders of magnitude.

2 million miles per hour is very, very, fast, even on the scale or Solar-System level astronomy, (including comets).

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Whizbang » Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:30 pm UTC

You need to account for the Movie Explosion Amplification Factor(MEAF). Between that and the Comic Book EAF(CBEAF), you'll easily gain a half dozen orders of magnitude.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Angua » Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:39 pm UTC

Also (in Avengers: the Earth's Mightiest Heroes, at least), vibranium is unstable somehow absorbs and amplifies energy, leading to massive explosions if you're not careful with your high-energy weaponry around it.

Vibranium is the naquadriah of the Marvel universe (I think it is probably more unstable than naquadah).
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Whizbang » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:03 pm UTC

And Cap is just running around blocking all sorts of energy blasts and the like on a piece of it?

True 'Merican there.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Angua » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:09 pm UTC

/shrugs

I guess it turns into the non-vibrating magical shield if you have the alloy right.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:47 pm UTC

cryptoengineer wrote:
Chen wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:
cryptoengineer wrote:To get the same energy as Chixulub, he'd have had to accelerate it to over 2 million mph (again, math on request).
Your point is wholly valid, but I want to remind you the city was filled with a vibranium engine... How's that play into your math?

YEAH! THATS WHAT I THOUGHT ::micdrop::


If the math shows its around 1/3 000 000th of the energy necessary and the vibranium engine can produce the rest, then it probably would have been FAR easier to just cause the vibranium engine to explode and live without that 1/3 000 000th of the energy you'd lose by not making a convoluted rising city. Hell you wouldn't need thrusters so you'd probably get MORE energy out of it.


To answer Izawwlgood: I don't have a figure on the density of Vibranium, but note that non-supers such as Black Widow are able to
handle Cap's shield without any particular difficulty. The specific density of 3 that I used above was based on the supposed density
of the Chixulub asteroid, which is higher than that of the rock it struck. The densest element we have is Osmium, with a density of
22.6, so about 7x better, which would still leave Ultron out by a five orders of magnitude.

2 million miles per hour is very, very, fast, even on the scale or Solar-System level astronomy, (including comets).
Vibranium's density is irrelevant. It's at maximum as dense as steel, probably more like aluminum.

It's special unobtanium properties deal with it's near-to-perfect absorption and transmission of kinetic energy, hence the vibrate in the name. Historically, it stores the energy and strengthens the molecular bonds, making the material stronger in the process. Its possible the amount would have allowed for a feedback loop where the energy was continually stored and released from different portions of the vibranium, increasing with each cycle. The drop itself may have been the catalyst, meaning the impact alone wouldn't be disruptive, but the vibrations that started later would do... something.

I'm also unsure as to how high he planned to go*. Perhaps high enough to get the 2m mph speed necessary.

*I do not recall if it was explicitly stated, but I do remember the feeling of High Atmosphere, not "Loop around Mars once or twice to build some extra speed..."
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Re: Avengers!

Postby pseudoidiot » Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:56 pm UTC

This just in:

Movie Physics Iffy in a movie about Superheroes.

More at 5.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Zohar » Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:42 am UTC

pseudoidiot wrote:This just in:

Movie Physics Iffy in a movie about Superheroes.

More at 5.

Yeah, this. In any case, there's a maximum speed and amount of energy the asteroid can get by just dragging it really far away and letting it fall, if I remember my physics correctly. Of course, at some point Ultron would want to start using the engines in reverse.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Chen » Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:42 am UTC

Zohar wrote:Yeah, this. In any case, there's a maximum speed and amount of energy the asteroid can get by just dragging it really far away and letting it fall, if I remember my physics correctly. Of course, at some point Ultron would want to start using the engines in reverse.


The engines did go into reverse. But even that hardly makes a dent in the speed necessary to make it a planet killing like the Chixulub impact, unless the reverse engines were like an order of magnitude stronger than the rising engines. Which would probably not be the best way to do things.

It's pretty much a matter of not running the actual numbers and doing something that seems plausible at first glance. I highly doubt most people started thinking about speeds and masses when they were watching the movie, which is pretty much the point. Just like in Interstellar. If you can build giant self-contained ecosystems that are necessarily airtight (they're in space) why do you have to launch them into space to begin with?

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Re: Avengers!

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:04 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
pseudoidiot wrote:This just in:

Movie Physics Iffy in a movie about Superheroes.

More at 5.

Yeah, this. In any case, there's a maximum speed and amount of energy the asteroid can get by just dragging it really far away and letting it fall, if I remember my physics correctly. Of course, at some point Ultron would want to start using the engines in reverse.


Yeah, if you free-fall from relative rest at an infinite distance, neglecting the effects of other objects, you end up with your velocity being minus escape velocity the whole way in. For Earth, the Sun will mess that up...


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