Unpopular Musical Opinions

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SirMustapha
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Re: Unpopular Musical Opinions

Postby SirMustapha » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:14 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
SirMustapha wrote:you dismiss jazz
To be fair, APolaris did claim not to be dismissing jazz.


Yeah, not explicitly or specifically, but the things about repeated phrases being a Bad Thing and songs with "no tune" being necessarily bad basically throws in the garbage a quite big part of jazz, and since the whole genre is this big, amorphous monster with millions of limbs and tentacles and ramifications, it's hard to chop off one part without hurting the whole thing.

I didn't want to go at a huge length of this discussion, because I'm developing a pretty radical view that virtually all music is the same and there will always be a gaping flaw in any attempt to define what is "commercial crap" and what isn't, therefore negating the idea that there is "commercial crap" in the first place, and I didn't want to go there. I just got bugged with the "I'M NOT ELITIST!" part, because, well, he is being elitist, and it'd be more fruitful for him to accept that and start from there.

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Re: Unpopular Musical Opinions

Postby APolaris » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:02 pm UTC

SirMustapha wrote:But realise that you're not merely "opposing the establishment" -- you are creating YOUR OWN environment that's hostile do anyone with differing tastes. In your attempt to be all revolutionary and counter-cultural, you're becoming just another generic little "dictator",


Any more than the majority who dismiss anything that isn't pop, pop rock, or the other "usual" tastes? I don't see anybody ganging up on them or referring to them as "dictators." Way to double-standard.

Also, citation for "revolutionary and counter-cultural," please.

as it has happened oh so many times before: you dismiss jazz,


Citation, please.

post rock,


Citation, please.

electronic music,


Fine, I'll give you that one. But I do find trance catchy, and given the option to listen to various things it's what I'll usually choose if I don't want baroque, classical, romantic, jazz, progressive rock or metal (but I'm narrow-minded and obsessed with as few forms of music as people who only listen to pop or generic rock, right?)

Yes, it is, because it's only YOU who are trying to define what is "generic, commercialist crap". Do you realise that, when Miles Davis released Bitches Brew -- an album that could very well fit your ideal of 24 minute long compositions filled with new stuff and hidden nuggets every corner and the meaning of life and shit -- many jazz critics dismissed it as -- gasp -- COMMERCIAL CRAP?


The difference is that Miles Davis playing that album took any effort, and he was trying to be a serious musician and composer instead of trying to sell an image. There's a difference between Bitches' Brew and a "song" that consists of constantly repeating "B... C... D... C... B... C... D... C... B... C... D... C..." with only one interruption while hoping that how the singer dresses, how "hot" they look, or how "catchy" the single repetitive phrase they use is will get audiences to overlook the sheer uneventfulness and nonmusicality of the song itself.

Now you tell me how the heck we should call those people elitist! Those critics are the PINNACLE of musical elitism, and you're headed the same direction.

So, yeah, elitism. That's not merely "unpopular", but that's horribly HARMFUL for music as a whole.


Funny, I don't hear you saying the same to the at least 90% of people who forcibly persecute anybody that gives anything but pop, alt rock, indie, and rap a chance. Actually, you seem more interested in doing the same.

As an aside, I think the thread title should be changed. It gives the false impression that this is a free zone to post your unpopular ideas without being ganged up on by hypocritical people with immense double-standards.

I just got bugged with the "I'M NOT ELITIST!" part


The word "elitist" at this point is completely meaningless and should probably be removed from the English lexicon. It's so wrongly overused by people obsessed with suppressing any opinion that isn't held by the majority without using it as a label for people behaving the same way if they hold to more popular opinions that it serves only as a label. At this point, the only real elitists are people who call other people elitist, because they think they're in any position to do so themselves and are labeling themselves as superior in the process. Agreeing with the majority doesn't make one immune to real elitism - today it's the single largest case.

You want to talk elitism in terms of having the right to force definitions? You're trying to set a definition yourself by trying to force me to swallow relativist "definitions." You're trying to force me to swallow the idea that you're right about "all music being equally valid" and giving yourself the authority to automatically dismiss any non-relative, objective definition of "music." On top of that, you're giving yourself the authority to label anyone who believes in objective definitions as "elitist." Next to that, my statement of personal tastes (which I never tried to force anybody to accept) is nowhere near "elitist."

Oh, and I love how you're saying I give myself the "authority" to choose the definition of a word when I've cited two credible sources already and nobody else has even cited one. Which, if anything, makes me the only person in recent posts who isn't choosing what I want the definition to be.

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Re: Unpopular Musical Opinions

Postby SirMustapha » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:52 pm UTC

APolaris wrote:Any more than the majority who dismiss anything that isn't pop, pop rock, or the other "usual" tastes? I don't see anybody ganging up on them or referring to them as "dictators." Way to double-standard.


I would also question those groups if they came up with the "I'm not elitist" talk, but I'm not the "anti-elite police" and I only comment here when I'm in the mood.

APolaris wrote:Also, citation for "revolutionary and counter-cultural," please.
(...)
Citation, please.
(...)
Citation, please.


AAAAArgh, can you stop that? Sheesh, wikipedianism eventually gets on my nerves.

I might as well be misinterpreting you, but your attitude of indulging in an "elevated" set of music and your constant bashing of "commercial" music is a very worn down cliché. You're very explicit in saying that you oppose everything that is "commercial", and you're not the first nor the last one; that kind of movement has come and gone countless ways, so when I use those terms, is merely in reference to what is already common knowledge. Look at the positive side: I could be pejoratively calling you "hippie" instead.

As for the genres I've mentioned, I was only following your post demeaning repetitiveness and anything that doesn't have a tune. Why, like I said before, there's a huge part of jazz that isn't based in "tune" and a fair share that uses riffs and repetition; as for post rock, well, repetition and riffs and tunelessness are almost dogma for that genre, and electronic music follows that too, partly for the nature of the synths used and partly for tradition.

APolaris wrote:The difference is that Miles Davis playing that album took any effort, and he was trying to be a serious musician and composer instead of trying to sell an image. There's a difference between Bitches' Brew and a "song" that consists of constantly repeating "B... C... D... C... B... C... D... C... B... C... D... C..." with only one interruption while hoping that how the singer dresses, how "hot" they look, or how "catchy" the single repetitive phrase they use is will get audiences to overlook the sheer uneventfulness and nonmusicality of the song itself.


Eh, all I see there is you nursing a stereotype, a strawman, and that doesn't have much value to me. Yeah, I realise there IS something we could call "purely commercial" music, but how on Earth could we define that? Many people throw in Lady Gaga on that bunch, but then several others comment that she is an actually talented musician. What about Michael Jackson? Was the guy an actually brilliant singer, showman and musician, or was he just a puppet in the hands of the record executives? Everything comes down to PERSONAL STANDARDS. And just as you say that Miles Davis was an actually serious and devoted musician (and I share that opinion -- I love his jazz fusion work), many people willingly DENY that, saying that fusion jazz is absolute noise, that it was against everything jazz stands for, and is truly unlistenable. Who is right and who is wrong?

APolaris wrote:Funny, I don't hear you saying the same to the at least 90% of people who forcibly persecute anybody that gives anything but pop, alt rock, indie, and rap a chance. Actually, you seem more interested in doing the same.


I dunno; I'm actually defending the opinion that there isn't an inherently "superior" form of music or an inherently "inferior" form. And yeah, I have a great allergy towards elitism in general, but I'm not constantly manifesting myself on that, that's all.

APolaris wrote:As an aside, I think the thread title should be changed. It gives the false impression that this is a free zone to post your unpopular ideas without being ganged up on by hypocritical people with immense double-standards.


Ah, come on! I actually enjoy the intelligent and balanced debates that this thread provoked; otherwise, this is just a place for people to show-off how "unpopular", quirky and "cool" they are. Meh.

I just got bugged with the "I'M NOT ELITIST!" part


APolaris wrote:At this point, the only real elitists are people who call other people elitist, because they think they're in any position to do so themselves and are labeling themselves as superior in the process.


Eh, a person who has an opinion and is willing to defend it is necessarily, to some extent, finding herself "superior". I think humbleness is important for one to see, recognise and accept the good and fair points the other people make, but, really, by defending my opinions, I am trying to make them prevail somehow. That's just unavoidable, and I think people shouldn't be so afraid of that. You can call that "elitism" if you wish, I'll understand. I just consider "elitism" as the attitude of people who think there is an absolute, well defined "elite" that is absolutely superior to everything else. I reject that stand point, that's all.

APolaris wrote:You're trying to set a definition yourself by trying to force me to swallow relativist "definitions." You're trying to force me to swallow the idea that you're right about "all music being equally valid" and giving yourself the authority to automatically dismiss any non-relative, objective definition of "music." On top of that, you're giving yourself the authority to label anyone who believes in objective definitions as "elitist."


I'm just stating what I think. And by throwing that "you're forcing me to swallow this and that" card, you're being overly defensive, and I don't like that. I apologise if I disagree with you, but I just do, there's nothing I can do about it. Just as I'm not force feeding you anything, I'm not going to change my speech just to be nice to you.

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Re: Unpopular Musical Opinions

Postby Random-person » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:42 pm UTC

I've listened to all studio albums of the Rolling Stones about three times.
Yet the only really good song is Paint it black. Though that song is one of the best songs ever. Sympathy of the devil is okay-ish as well, but seriously, the guitar play of most songs is just standard rock that any fifteen year old can beat (and did back in the 70s).

For the Beatles (which I've heard their top-20 famous songs quite a number of times) there are maybe ten good-ish songs, but none that is really great. John Lennon as a solo artist made just as many good songs, but many of those are really great unlike the Beatles counterparts.

I REALLY can't understand how the Beatles could be so huge. How do people even manage to remember the nonsensical lyrics?

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Re: Unpopular Musical Opinions

Postby sje46 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:47 pm UTC

Random-person wrote:I've listened to all studio albums of the Rolling Stones about three times.
Yet the only good song is Paint it black. Though that song is one of the best songs ever.

For the Beatles (which I've heard their top-20 famous songs quite a number of times) there are maybe ten good-ish songs, but none that is really great. John Lennon as a solo artist made just as many good songs, but many of those are really great unlike the Beatles counterparts.

I'm curious as to what you think their top twenty famous songs are. I mean, I don't want you to look them up or anything...I just want to hear what songs in particular come to your mind. They had a lot of famous songs...20 of them reached #1 on Billboard. I think that what I consider to be the most popular songs of theirs currently aren't necessarily the best...there's a lot of gems of theirs people don't talk about.
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Re: Unpopular Musical Opinions

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:48 pm UTC

APolaris wrote:Any more than the majority who dismiss anything that isn't pop, pop rock, or the other "usual" tastes? I don't see anybody ganging up on them or referring to them as "dictators."
Where are those people? I don't see any of them in this thread. Do you? We can't very well gang up on someone who isn't here (or, if they are, is made entirely of straw...).
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Re: Unpopular Musical Opinions

Postby Midnight » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:21 pm UTC

I've met plenty of people that listen to outlandish things that aren't "usual" and dismiss the usual (there's dozens in this thread alone) but I've never met someone that exclusively listens to the usual and dismisses the outlandish. The latter type of people have musical tastes that are not narrow, but undeveloped. You could love some shitty Nickelback stuff, and I'll play you Porcupine Tree, and you'll go "ho damn this is *actually* good!"
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: Unpopular Musical Opinions

Postby Gelsamel » Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:32 am UTC

Man, Dream Theater is like my favourite band (to be seen whether it'll continue to be my favourite after we see how the replacement drummer goes), hell I went to one of their concerts and thought the opposite TheAmazingRando. But just because I love technically complex epic music doesn't mean that other music genres, like pop, aren't music or are inherently poor or bad. That's total bull. I have not really found any pop that I like at all (Lady Gaga comes closest, I think she is doing great things for pop music but I still don't really like any of her songs) but that doesn't make pop as a genre 'not music' or some bullshit like that, it just means I don't like it. What you're saying in this thread is "I like chocolate mint ice cream because it's real icecream, unlike that vanilla junk".

Good music engenders emotions, feelings, or thoughts in the listener and you don't need to be technically virtuoso to do that, you have to be good at music to do that, which is something entirely different. I'm reminded now of that phrase coined by Mr. McLuhan, "The Medium is the Message" there is so much more to the medium, and message, that is music than just solely the technical difficulty or the lyrics, or the beat or groove alone. You can have amazingly simple songs that are constructed or designed or simply just used so well that they're great music.

In fact the music isn't even it's own thing so it's not like you can even evaluate it standalone like that, the music-environment-listener is the full system and forms a state with complex interactions between all 3 subsystems that determines whether the music does what it's meant to. You can, if you want, grade music based on it's technical virtuosity, but calling the stuff at the top "good" and the stuff at the bottom "bad" (or "invalid" as you seem to imply) is a misnomer (and totally wrong in the case of invalid).
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Re: Unpopular Musical Opinions

Postby cameron432 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:50 am UTC

Gelsamel wrote:In fact the music isn't even it's own thing so it's not like you can even evaluate it standalone like that, the music-environment-listener is the full system and forms a state with complex interactions between all 3 subsystems that determines whether the music does what it's meant to. You can, if you want, grade music based on it's technical virtuosity, but calling the stuff at the top "good" and the stuff at the bottom "bad" (or "invalid" as you seem to imply) is a misnomer (and totally wrong in the case of invalid).

This. Right here. The bold/underline especially.

I listen to a lot of post-hardcore and metalcore (almost all of what I listen to is in this genre). The two genres don't get that much recognition... But I like them a lot. The environment is what has really gotten me into it. Concerts in this genre are CRAZY!! They're so much fun. Before I started seriously going to concerts, I listened to like 3 bands... The music didn't mean much to me until I had a show to enjoy it at. Now, I listen to so many more bands.
The environment and people got me. I'm rather shy most of the time, but I just feel at home when I'm at a show. I know I'll probably regret it in 30 years, but at this point, I want to enjoy life while I can (besides, in 30 years, cochlear implants will be cheap!). I just love it, and it's really affordable as well (most I've paid for a show was $25, and that included getting in early). The bands always seem to have so much energy, and it just radiates out into the crowd. The sweat, being packed into a tiny venue, body heat making it like 110 inside. All part of it. So much fun.

But I have to disagree with you on one point. There is some legitimately bad music out there (seriously, brokenCYDE). I really don't care if you like bad music (hell, some music I listen to is rather terrible), just as long as you don't think that they're these talented superstars...

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Re: Unpopular Musical Opinions

Postby Retne » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:24 am UTC

Midnight wrote:I've met plenty of people that listen to outlandish things that aren't "usual" and dismiss the usual (there's dozens in this thread alone) but I've never met someone that exclusively listens to the usual and dismisses the outlandish. The latter type of people have musical tastes that are not narrow, but undeveloped. You could love some shitty Nickelback stuff, and I'll play you Porcupine Tree, and you'll go "ho damn this is *actually* good!"


I just had to respond to this. I actually know someone who is exactly like this. Any time she comments on whatever music I'm listening to it's always something along the lines of "How can you listen to this crap?" I have tried to lead her out of the pop music stage light but she blatantly refuses to follow. That's OK with me though. Different strokes don't float some peoples boats. I just found it amusing that I'm actually good friends with what is apparently an endangered form of human.

For reference I will listen to just about everything that isn't on the radio(top 40 rap, pop music and country). Honestly the main reason I don't listen to that stuff is I've heard it too much. I actually liked a lot of bands out there before they made half the songs on their albums singles. Also I still like a couple Jay-Z singles which says something. Whether that something is that I have a mental deformation or that he actually has produced something more enjoyable than average is relative to your opinion I guess.

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Re: Unpopular Musical Opinions

Postby Kangaroo » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:13 am UTC

Gelsamel wrote: What you're saying in this thread is "I like chocolate mint ice cream because it's real icecream, unlike that vanilla junk".



Actually, it's more like: "I like handmade Italian ice cream , because it's real ice cream, unlike that mass-produced commercialist crap that you see in every store out there." But then again it comes down to taste and personal preference. I tend to agree that most pop songs fail to convey any deeper emotion; sure, you'll feel something but it won't be as deep as more complex works.

But then again, it depends on what you're looking for - philosophical lyrics combined with experimental avantgarde music just doesn't cut it at times.

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Re: Unpopular Musical Opinions

Postby cjmcjmcjmcjm » Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:59 pm UTC

I'm not sure if this is so unpopular as much, but something that ticks me off. I can't stand people who have to listen to the same shitty dance songs at parties. Seriously, <lesser-known song here> has a perfectly danceable beat, yet you keep bitching about how "I don't know the dance to this song", never-mind that there is no official dance to 70% of the shitty music you dance to. Hooray for ignorance + hypocrisy!
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Re: Unpopular Musical Opinions

Postby Midnight » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:35 pm UTC

Retne wrote:I just had to respond to this. I actually know someone who is exactly like this. Any time she comments on whatever music I'm listening to it's always something along the lines of "How can you listen to this crap?" I have tried to lead her out of the pop music stage light but she blatantly refuses to follow. That's OK with me though. Different strokes don't float some peoples boats. I just found it amusing that I'm actually good friends with what is apparently an endangered form of human.

Dass crazy talk. Even pop stuff that's better than Katy Perry, like Phoenix or Royksopp? Cause there's pop that's better than mainstream pop.


Side note: As far as Dream Theater's new drummer (and this is fittingly in 'unpopular musical opinions')--I hope to god he's better than Portnoy, cause Portnoy is boring enough to fit just fine within A7X and stuff.
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: Unpopular Musical Opinions

Postby SecondTalon » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:52 am UTC

I've had enough.
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