A Song of Ice and Fire

[velkito]

Hey folks,

for those of us who can't wait for book 6, but want to get some ASOIAF reading fix, I'd like to recommend the following story:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7780036/1/T ... -Remembers

Yes, I know it's fanfiction, but trust me, it's so good that, imho GRRM would approve of it, were he to read it some day. It attempts to finish the series, and while it is still ongoing, its 500k+ words would keep you hooked for a good few weeks.

Enjoy!

[LaserGuy]

GRRM has stated on several occasions that he doesn't approve of any fanfiction of his works, and thinks that fanfiction in general is detrimental to aspiring authors.

[Adam H]

Yeah well GRRM is an ass. A genius, but an ass.

Thanks for sharing that fanfic. I skipped around just to get an idea of what happens, and I like the Jon/Bran storylines a lot.

[velkito]

He doesn't approve of fanfiction of his works, because the characters are doing all sorts of outlandish things, just to get a more wildly inappropriate and impossible pairing (at least that's my theory). The characters in this fanfic are doing nothing of the sort. He can't really frown at fanfiction with his books coming out every 5 years..

Most chapters in this work start scenically, whether through scenery, or through descriptions of the thoughts/previous actions of a character, gradually build up the suspense and end with a bang of sorts. The further I get in a chapter, the more invested I'm feeling in reading it. If these are not signs of good writing, I don't know what is. I hope you like it, I sure did

[ameretrifle]

Well, that's a nice theory, but it conflicts a little bit with what he's actually said, so.

I mean, I disagree with his stance on several grounds, I haven't read the fic, I haven't even read the books, but let's present his opinion fairly. He's not just against bad fanfiction. He's against fanfiction. Absolutely anything that involves his characters/setting that he doesn't have explicit veto power on. Good, bad, or indifferent. He thinks it's legally dubious and emotionally hurtful and even a bad and lazy writing habit. And I understand how that sucks if you like fanfiction and you like him, but you grow up and sometimes you learn your favorite author has opinions you disagree with. It's not a pleasant thing to learn, but it's going to keep happening. Just, going from my personal experience here.

[Tyndmyr]

GRRM has stated on several occasions that he doesn't approve of any fanfiction of his works, and thinks that fanfiction in general is detrimental to aspiring authors.

I can kind of see his point, given the quality of most fan fiction.

Now, I also agree that he's kind of an ass, and I don't think that fan fiction should be legally questionable...but from the standpoint of developing as an author, yeah, using other people's work as a basis isn't exactly the same as crafting your own work from scratch. It shouldn't mean you're a bad person for writing a fanfic, just...yknow, be aware that if you want to be an actual author, that probably won't do it.

And yes, I'm aware of 50 shades of gray. Not really a case for success, IMO.

[LaserGuy]

Realistically, if you're good enough that you can put together a really good, interesting story, and are a dedicated enough to be willing to put in the effort to write 500k+ words, fanfiction is probably a waste of your talents. A typical novel is 80k words--if the author of this fanfiction is really any good, he or she could have written five or six novels of their own creation that they might actually be able to receive real credit for. For hobbyists or the purposes of Rule 34, fanfiction fits a certain niche quite well, I guess.

For GRRM and this piece of work specifically, I think that ameretrifle has summed it up pretty well:

[L]et's present his opinion fairly. He's not just against bad fanfiction. He's against fanfiction. Absolutely anything that involves his characters/setting that he doesn't have explicit veto power on. Good, bad, or indifferent. He thinks it's legally dubious and emotionally hurtful and even a bad and lazy writing habit. And I understand how that sucks if you like fanfiction and you like him, but you grow up and sometimes you learn your favorite author has opinions you disagree with. It's not a pleasant thing to learn, but it's going to keep happening. Just, going from my personal experience here.

[Adacore]

Future/existing book spoilers:

Spoiler:

In the books I'm pretty sure she killed "the tickler" in the tavern. Because when I saw the TV ep, I was expecting her to say "where's the gold? Where's the silver? Where's Beric Dondarrion?" rather than the mimicking that she DID do.

Spoiler:

Yeah, that's right. I remember some discussion when the Tickler was killed earlier in the show about whether that meant we weren't getting the Arya/Hound tavern scenes. I doubt they'll have too much trouble furnishing Arya with undesirable Lannisters to dispose of, if and when the plot demands, even if they do kill them off in a different order than the books.

[roband]

Future/existing book spoilers:

Spoiler:

In the books I'm pretty sure she killed "the tickler" in the tavern. Because when I saw the TV ep, I was expecting her to say "where's the gold? Where's the silver? Where's Beric Dondarrion?" rather than the mimicking that she DID do.

Spoiler:

Yeah, that's right. I remember some discussion when the Tickler was killed earlier in the show about whether that meant we weren't getting the Arya/Hound tavern scenes. I doubt they'll have too much trouble furnishing Arya with undesirable Lannisters to dispose of, if and when the plot demands, even if they do kill them off in a different order than the books.

Leaked chapters spoiler:

Spoiler:

And that leaked chapter "Mercy" was sublime, have you read it? The way she switches from Mercy to Arya makes me SO FUCKING EXCITED for the badass she's becoming.
I really hope she gets a crack at some other names on her list. Fuck valonqars, I want her to kill Cersei.

[Adacore]

Yeah, I read that chapter, although I instantly regretted it, because I immediately wanted to keep reading, and the book won't be out for at least another year. It wasn't exactly 'leaked', though, it's just a preview - GRRM published it on his official site.

[roband]

Yeah, I was looking for a single word which expressed that. Leaked was the closest I got.

[Dark567]

Leaked chapters spoiler:

Spoiler:

And that leaked chapter "Mercy" was sublime, have you read it? The way she switches from Mercy to Arya makes me SO FUCKING EXCITED for the badass she's becoming.
I really hope she gets a crack at some other names on her list. Fuck valonqars, I want her to kill Cersei.

Continued spoiler for TWOW:

Spoiler:

By badass, I hope you mean psychopath. The general audience infatuation with Arya bothers me that people don't understand that shes becoming more evil as the series progresses. In a sense, she's the same revenge hate machines that is Lady Stoneheart, without actually having died.

[roband]

Leaked chapters spoiler:

Spoiler:

And that leaked chapter "Mercy" was sublime, have you read it? The way she switches from Mercy to Arya makes me SO FUCKING EXCITED for the badass she's becoming.
I really hope she gets a crack at some other names on her list. Fuck valonqars, I want her to kill Cersei.

Continued spoiler for TWOW:

Spoiler:

By badass, I hope you mean psychopath. The general audience infatuation with Arya bothers me that people don't understand that shes becoming more evil as the series progresses. In a sense, she's the same revenge hate machines that is Lady Stoneheart, without actually having died.

Future book spoilers still:

Spoiler:

I think "revenge" and "evil" are very much two different things. Plus, if she becomes a Faceless Man, she's an assassin. Do they do it because they're evil or because they're good at it? I don't see her becoming "evil" in a murderous rampage kinda way. I see her killing those on her list and then either stopping, or continuing as a paid assassin because she's good at it by then (and doesn't have anywhere else to go).

Evil/psychopathy doesn't come into it, for me.

[Dark567]

paid assassin

I don't generally view hitmen in a good light.

[Yakk]

Bran will be interesting because

Spoiler:

he can be used to show the backstory scenes we have been missing, like the tower of tears and blood

[roband]

You might wanna label that as ALL books (including future).

edit: And remove the character name from outside the spoiler.

[SecondTalon]

Moved crap from the TV Show thread to here.

[roband]

Bleh, because comparing the two is allowed, but discussing it is not.

Or do the books trump the TV show because they were first? What about if the TV show overtakes the books? What about people who are watching the TV show but plan to read the books at some point?

Well labelled spoilers and using your brain when reading them avoid all the above issues. Common sense? Too much to ask, I suppose, from most.

[LaserGuy]

Realistically, it might make the most sense to split the TV show thread into Spoiler/Nonspoiler versions. I've seen an awful lot of other places do that with this show.

[Adam H]

If the content refers to both the book and the tv show, then use the "who would this spoiler piss off the least" heuristic to determine where to post it.

Regarding Arya:

Spoiler:

Evil has very little meaning in aSoIaF. Arya is an anti-hero. You are allowed to root for anti-heroes.

It's like watching a dog be beaten for years before it turns on its master and bites the shit out of him. That's the high point of the dog's life from a spectator's perspective. Unfortunately, the dog now attacks everyone, so it is "evil". Are we not supposed to sympathize with that dog?

[Yakk]

You might wanna label that as ALL books (including future).

edit: And remove the character name from outside the spoiler.

I wrote it in context in another thread, in response to a post in the TV thread. The level of spoiler was clear there, and it was talking about how the character in the plotline on the TV show being talked about would generate interesting content going forward, based off the differences between the TV show and the books prior to the point in the plotline.

In this thread, the post makes absolutely no sense.

If you have the power, delete that post, because I cannot.

[Adacore]

If you have the power, delete that post, because I cannot.

You could edit the post to make this clearer?

Continued Bran discussion:

Spoiler:

I hadn't really thought extensively how he can be used to do significant flashback-type scenes to fill in the backstory. That makes me significantly more interested in his storyline going forward. Bran chapters went from some of my favourites to things I was entirely unexcited about reading between GoT and ADwD, but I think things were beginning to pick up in the books, and the show could probably make them much more involving.

[Yakk]

Naw, talking about the TV show in this thread is off topic.

[SecondTalon]

Bleh, because comparing the two is allowed, but discussing it is not.

Or do the books trump the TV show because they were first? What about if the TV show overtakes the books? What about people who are watching the TV show but plan to read the books at some point?

Well labelled spoilers and using your brain when reading them avoid all the above issues. Common sense? Too much to ask, I suppose, from most.

Given how problematic it is, I'm half-seriously considering banning the entire thing outright, or requesting it get it's own goddamn subforum because seriously, is staying on fucking topic too goddamn hard for you people?

Is it text-onna-page? Talk about it here.

Is it movin'-pictures-onna-screen? Talk about it in the other thread.

Did they do something different on one than they did in the other? I guess you'd talk about it in the TV thread as that's where it'd be different. But there's no reason to continue the conversation beyond "Oh, weird, Smashburger killed Dopenmeier at the Battle of Flan, but the show has him killing him two fights earlier, at the Quiznos Conflict. Wonder why?"


I'm really considering just mashing both threads together, setting the entire thing on fire, and letting it sink in the swamp.

[roband]

But there's no reason to continue the conversation beyond...

Is there not? I mean conversations morph, that's what happens...

I'm really considering just mashing both threads together, setting the entire thing on fire, and letting it sink in the swamp.

At which point we'd rely on well labelled spoilers and I'd be happy. Okay.

[Adam H]

Did they do something different on one than they did in the other? I guess you'd talk about it in the TV thread as that's where it'd be different. But there's no reason to continue the conversation beyond "Oh, weird, Smashburger killed Dopenmeier at the Battle of Flan, but the show has him killing him two fights earlier, at the Quiznos Conflict. Wonder why?"

I think comparing the two is really interesting. But it belongs in the book thread, because book readers can read show spoilers but show watchers can't read book spoilers*. I don't consider GRRM's version the one-true-canon because he's an asshole and I hate him and GoT is just as good as aSoIaF (only semi-joking). So maybe the books differ from the TV show and not the other way around.

*Until the show overtakes the books. GoT will run for no more than 7-8 seasons, so unless GRRM gets two books out in 4 years (lololololol), soon we'll have book readers plugging their ears and covering their eyes and shouting lalalalala can't hear you.

[roband]

because book readers can read show spoilers

I disagree.

I have a couple of people who are choosing to read before watching the show. But they reading in stops and starts. Spoilers won't be good for them.

[Adam H]

because book readers can read show spoilers

I disagree.

I have a couple of people who are choosing to read before watching the show. But they reading in stops and starts. Spoilers won't be good for them.

In that case book readers can't even read book spoilers. If you can read book spoilers, you can read show spoilers, is all I'm saying. But not necessarily the other way around.

[eSOANEM]

I seem to remember a discussion in one of these two threads about possible mechanisms for the seasons of westeros. Well, sixty symbols have done a video about it.

6 minute version
16 minute version

[mosc]

I think I summarized most of that in our other thread. I think the main idea that this video passes over is that seasons could vary in entirely predictable ways but the complete cycle would take lifetimes to observe and thus be viewed without careful record keepings as unpredictable. In other words if you combine several predictable factors like a larger wobble (need a bigger moon), a more eliptical orbit, and a varying solar activity cycle you can get overlaps of all three being cold and warm that are hundreds of years apart. For example:

The main summer-winter yearly cycle is driven by the elliptical orbit
A secondary cycle of changes in wobble happens over a 1001 year variance
a solar activity cycle changes ever 23 years.
Tidal pull from a nearby gas giant changes water currents on a 4 year orbital resonance cycle

These are all phenomenons that happen in our solar system. Our sun is very stable but does have an 11 year electromagnetic disturbance (sunspot) cycle. There are several known orbital resonance interactions including between pluto and neptune which is particularly relevant here as a smaller elliptically orbiting planet and a gas giant. Our wobble changes fairly slowly over about 26,000 years but with a larger moon perhaps not yet completely tidally locked this could be substantially faster and more substantial.

The full period of this process is quite extreme. 1001x23x4= 92,092 years. Certainly only perceivable as chaotic in the world. In shorter timeframes though, patterns would immerge. THe 4 year orbital resonance cycle would give patterns of warmer and colder years, a super-season. Adding in changes in solar activity and a longer 23x4=92 year cycle is barely in memory of the locals. A gradual change towards worsening winters across that 92 year cycle and back adds an even more chaotic feel. A once in 1,000 year or once in 10,000 year occurance with that 92 year cycle on top of the larger axial tilt would make for an even more spectacular single multi-year winter.

EDIT: the main issue I have with all this is that I'm not sure GRRM understands what it's like in extreme cold environments. The ground is frozen but precipitation is non-existent. Things have to warm up in our own arctic for it to snow. During an acrtic winter, the air is too cold to hold moisture and the skies will be clear and crisp. The pounding of snow he gives the seemingly arctic north near the wall does not fit with a reasonable weather cycle. Spiraling the north into a short-term ice age would mean no snow.

[Adam H]

There was a minor digression in the show thread about who you want to die in book 6 and beyond:

Spoiler:

Doran Martell! He's boring. Sure I guess he's sly, whatever. But wouldn't his death result in so much fun chaos? There are many more interesting characters in Dorne that would become even more interesting if doran died.

Also, Aegon. I don't hate him, but I also don't like him. I don't feel anything for him. So I don't want him to become a major player, and the only way that doesn't happen is if he's dead.

I would have said Cersei, but I love her in the show. Of course, book 4 is when she really starts getting annoying, so we'll see how I feel.

I also think it would be interesting if blood raven died before bran finished training.

[CorruptUser]

Actually it was for season 5+. While us readers know who vaguely who will/won't die for a short time anyway, it's still interesting to note what people want. And deaths CAN be moved sooner, so someone that was going to die in Winds of Winter could buy it in season 5. Some people alive in the books aren't alive in the show, after all.

Book 4

Spoiler:

Cersei gets spiritually neutered by the end. She is effectively dead anyway.

[Adam H]

Actually it was for season 5+. While us readers know who vaguely who will/won't die for a short time anyway, it's still interesting to note what people want. And deaths CAN be moved sooner, so someone that was going to die in Winds of Winter could buy it in season 5. Some people alive in the books aren't alive in the show, after all.

Book 4

Spoiler:

Cersei gets spiritually neutered by the end. She is effectively dead anyway.

Oh I see. Well, my response still belonged here.

Anyone whose death could be moved that much earlier is mostly insignificant, with a handful of exceptions: (Book 5 spoilers)

Spoiler:

I'm thinking of Sansa and Bran, who could die as soon as Season 5 if they die in Book 6...

I've heard people say that Bran has plot armor, but I don't see why. The only reason I think he'll survive the entire series is because he's not in any danger - Bloodraven survived up there for hundreds of years, after all. That said, I don't see why his role is vital to the story anymore. Assuming he survives the length of the book, it's possible he doesn't do anything and we never see him again... Also it would be pretty GRRMy for Bloodraven or the Children to kill Bran, take his memories, and pose as him through the weirwoods. Very unlikely, but who knows. *shrug*

That said, I'm really excited for the potential Bran POV chapters in WoW (and the upcoming seasons). With Jon's story picking up, this will be an ideal time IMO to start dropping hints that he's Lyanna's son. Of course, if Jon is dead then we will likely never get confirmation about his parents.

Regarding Cersei: yup, she becomes worthless. And yet her POV chapters continue...

Unrelated: is anyone else indifferent whether the show catches up to the books? I'd much rather the show catch up than have the show slow down. Obviously the ideal scenario is that both books would be finished in 3 years right before the last season started, but that's not going to happen.

IMO it's nice that we know for sure there will be an end - GRRM had previously said that if he didn't finish the story, no one would. Which is quite annoying to be told when you are invested in something so interesting and with so much mystery to it.

[Adacore]

Spoiler:

I've heard people say that Bran has plot armor, but I don't see why. The only reason I think he'll survive the entire series is because he's not in any danger - Bloodraven survived up there for hundreds of years, after all. That said, I don't see why his role is vital to the story anymore. Assuming he survives the length of the book, it's possible he doesn't do anything and we never see him again... Also it would be pretty GRRMy for Bloodraven or the Children to kill Bran, take his memories, and pose as him through the weirwoods. Very unlikely, but who knows. *shrug*

That said, I'm really excited for the potential Bran POV chapters in WoW (and the upcoming seasons). With Jon's story picking up, this will be an ideal time IMO to start dropping hints that he's Lyanna's son. Of course, if Jon is dead then we will likely never get confirmation about his parents.

Spoilers below are for all books and some future speculation:

Spoiler:

The general feeling is that there must be some reason we had to sit through three books of deathly boring Bran treks through the North chapters. He has some purpose to fulfil in the overall plot arc. Maybe that's something as simple as allowing Theon to rediscover himself, in which case he's served his purpose, but, as you implied, most people see Bran as having at the very least the important plot-function of being able to introduce exposition through his past-viewing visions to explain what actually happened in Robert's Rebellion. He hasn't done that yet to any significant extent, and that's probably an entire book worth of Bran chapters, likely introducing the material fairly late on, to keep the mystery alive, which means he almost certainly lives until at least the end of book 6, and probably mid-end of book 7. The other speculation is in the recurring motif that Bran will 'fly', he may gain the ability to worg into the dragons. In my view, Bran is just starting to get interesting at the end of Book 5, since he has the ability to manipulate events in the entire realm and interact with almost every other subplot now.

Spoiler:

Regarding Cersei: yup, she becomes worthless. And yet her POV chapters continue...

Spoiler:

I can't see Cersei lasting much longer. Her purpose in books 4-5 was to screw up ruling Westeros so badly that further chaotic war seemed reasonable, with smallish factions actually standing a chance of taking control. Perhaps she'll have some long-range redemption arc in the end, but honestly that seems unlikely to me. I suspect GRRM is just waiting for a suitable moment to kill her off dramatically at this point.

Unrelated: is anyone else indifferent whether the show catches up to the books? I'd much rather the show catch up than have the show slow down. Obviously the ideal scenario is that both books would be finished in 3 years right before the last season started, but that's not going to happen.

IMO it's nice that we know for sure there will be an end - GRRM had previously said that if he didn't finish the story, no one would. Which is quite annoying to be told when you are invested in something so interesting and with so much mystery to it.

I would like the books to be finished first, purely because I think GRRM has a better thematic idea of where to go with the material and how to resolve all the subplots than Benioff and Weiss. That said, if GRRM isn't able to finish the book series, I would certainly want to see the show end to actually give a conclusion to the whole thing (although, I really can't see that there wouldn't be a ghostwritten 7th book in that case, perhaps using the show material as a basis, even if GRRM insists he doesn't want it to happen).

Also, speculation from a AVClub article I read earlier this week, that I was really surprised not to have seen/noticed before:

Spoiler:

Joanna Lannister is apparently rumoured to have slept with Aerys Targaryen on her wedding night, with Jaime and Cersei being their illegitimate children. That actually makes so much sense for the characters I think it's very likely to be true. The Targaryen insanity and incest fetish certainly seem to be there. This also means, assuming the Jon Snow theory is correct too, that there are an awful lot more Targaryens still around than most people think, and Jaime and Cersei might have some larger role to play in the future.

[LaserGuy]

Regarding Cersei:

Spoiler:

I can't see Cersei lasting much longer. Her purpose in books 4-5 was to screw up ruling Westeros so badly that further chaotic war seemed reasonable, with smallish factions actually standing a chance of taking control. Perhaps she'll have some long-range redemption arc in the end, but honestly that seems unlikely to me. I suspect GRRM is just waiting for a suitable moment to kill her off dramatically at this point.

Spoiler:

Cersei will probably die in TWoW. I suspect she may be rejuvenated/crazified further as she comes to believe that Pycelle/Kevan were murdered by Tyrion. If Maggy the Frog prophecy is true, though, she will probably outlive both Tommen and Myrcella. The way events are current going, that's likely to come about in Dornish/Aegon invasion of King's Landing.

re: Joanna

Spoiler:

Joanna Lannister is apparently rumoured to have slept with Aerys Targaryen on her wedding night, with Jaime and Cersei being their illegitimate children. That actually makes so much sense for the characters I think it's very likely to be true. The Targaryen insanity and incest fetish certainly seem to be there. This also means, assuming the Jon Snow theory is correct too, that there are an awful lot more Targaryens still around than most people think, and Jaime and Cersei might have some larger role to play in the future.

Spoiler:

Some people believe that it is Tyrion who is Aerys' bastard. I dislike most of the secret Targ theories except Jon, personally. Having everyone and their dog a secret Targ would be a pretty lame, IMHO.

[Lazar]

Things I've learned from reading AGoT:

- All leather is boiled
- Wolves (and some people) pad everywhere
- Everything is cooked with onions and served on trenchers
- "The Sword of the Morning" is the coolest title ever

[CorruptUser]

Leather that isn't boiled is clothing. To turn leather into armor you need to specially prepare it in wax and other things.

As an aside, is it a spoiler to talk about the actual War of the Roses? Because Tyrion is based on Richard III, and, well, not everyone knows how that ended.

[eSOANEM]

Under a car park in Leicester?

[Adacore]

As an aside, is it a spoiler to talk about the actual War of the Roses? Because Tyrion is based on Richard III, and, well, not everyone knows how that ended.

I would actually love for someone to break down the history of the War of the Roses and the counterparts to people and/or stuff that happened to people/stuff in ASoIaF. I know the series is 'based on' that period of history, but I have no idea how close the parallels are. Probably would be best to spoiler that kind of analysis, though.

[Diemo]

As an aside, is it a spoiler to talk about the actual War of the Roses? Because Tyrion is based on Richard III, and, well, not everyone knows how that ended.

I would actually love for someone to break down the history of the War of the Roses and the counterparts to people and/or stuff that happened to people/stuff in ASoIaF. I know the series is 'based on' that period of history, but I have no idea how close the parallels are. Probably would be best to spoiler that kind of analysis, though.