Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

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Hammer
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Re: WOT

Postby Hammer » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:18 pm UTC

CreemyNougat wrote:
mynoduesp wrote:Also is it just me or is there a lot of Norse mythology references mixed in the last few books?
It's not you.

And it starts before the last few books. Actually, it seems like there are references to darn near everything I've ever read. LOTR in particular. And he is really Odinifying Mat Cauthon.
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Postby sunkistbabe1 » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:29 am UTC

SpitValve wrote:
mrcheesypants wrote:I guess it's just not my type of book.


It's my type of book, it's just the characterisation is written badly :)

And I agree that the world is detailed and interesting, albeit a bit cliche, and the one power is a very cool "physics engine".

But, he does write everything as a stereotype, so I just don't find the world as believable as even say, the Discworld.

Also, so much of it is derived from Dune or LOTR:


Im in the middle of book 7 right now, and I do see all the similarities you point out. But overall, I am enjoying the series. My husband has finished it (well up to book 11) and It's taking me much longer because of a couple things... mainly, giving birth and lack of sleep. lol. But I am working my way through. Once I finish book 7 though I am switching over to read Davinci Code before I pick up book 8. :)
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Postby bbctol » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:03 am UTC

WoT is trashy fantasy. But it's the best trashy fantasy that's out there. Sure, it rips off Tolkien, but so does every other trashy fantasy book, and the One Power is well thought out. My biggest problem is that, since the plotting and characters are mediocre, one of the best things is the setting, a LOT of which is from Tolkien and, to a lesser extent, Dune.

Fun Fact! In every single fantasy book with reluctant country folk heroes finding their destiny, the small town they come from is ALWAYS to the way west of the map, right where *cough*THE SHIRE*cough* was! Examples: The Two Rivers, whatever that town in Eragon was called...

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Postby Lester :P » Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:20 pm UTC

Hammer wrote:I sat down and read all the books currently extant one right after another. It has it's ups and downs. Some good stuff, but I wouldn't call it the greatest ever. Did anyone else get tired of the continual beatings/whippings/spankings/suchlike? I felt like I'd stumbled into some sort of BSDM fiction newsgroup after awhile.


The last book with the Aes Sedai becoming a slave unable to wear clothing? Hell yes, Jordan has a big bdsm fantasy.


Everytimwe I talk about this series people hope Jordan doesn't die before he finishes it, he's just *so* old.

I don't have trouble keeping up with the characters, and I think Jordan is Loki-ifying matt more than odinifying...

Also to the guy who said book 3 was the only piece of fiction he read without finishing, thats how I am with Lord Of The Rings, I hate those books.

One of the best parts about WoT is that reading them is epic in and of itself.
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Postby sunkistbabe1 » Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:14 pm UTC

bbctol wrote:WoT is trashy fantasy. But it's the best trashy fantasy that's out there. Sure, it rips off Tolkien, but so does every other trashy fantasy book, and the One Power is well thought out. My biggest problem is that, since the plotting and characters are mediocre, one of the best things is the setting, a LOT of which is from Tolkien and, to a lesser extent, Dune.

Fun Fact! In every single fantasy book with reluctant country folk heroes finding their destiny, the small town they come from is ALWAYS to the way west of the map, right where *cough*THE SHIRE*cough* was! Examples: The Two Rivers, whatever that town in Eragon was called...


If anyone looks hard enough, you'd find similarities between any two books of any Genre. When you think of it the concept of a super evil entity / power bent on total destruction or reign over people is so common its ridiculous. LOTR *might* have been the first, but we do not know. It's probably riddled through ancient prophecies and folklore, and not written down into fiction novels.

My examples that I can come up with before my morning coffee are: LOTR and WoT. Hell, even 'Fifth Element' and 'Ferngully' had it. It's the classic good vs evil struggle, only in different forms, you cannot say it was ripped from anywhere when it's everywhere
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Postby niende » Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:00 pm UTC

I agree.

It's not ripping off, it's the basics of story telling.
You have the good guys fighting the bad guys.
I'd hate to ruin the ending of the series for you guys but: "The good guys win". That'd also be ruining about 99% of every story there is out there.

also, "hero of humble origins" is not exactly patented by Tolkien.
Luke skywalker grew up on a farm, superman was riased in Smallville. even Moses was a sheepherder (or goat-herder?). not to mention king david or Jesus. You can't claim those were ripped from LoTR..

RJ likes collecting from folklore and mixing it up in his stories. So the Aiel are the hardened desert warriors and the Seanchan are some Japanese/chinese mix of sorts. you get references from Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Eastern, Norse myths and I bet tonnes more I didn't get..

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Postby dumbclown » Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:20 pm UTC

I would back the Aiel to be Jewish ripoff more then anything. Chosen people, desert, slave that become warriors, return to their chosen land. Rings a lot of bells with the exodus.

They are terrible books. I have read a lot of bad books. I will read anything that I can get my hands on. One way you can determine if a book is bad is to think of your favorite moment in the book. If you can't recall an exact moment the book is mediocre. I'm not talking about overall things here a specific moment.

But, hey I also think the lord of the rings are pretty bad books as well for the same reason.

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Postby niende » Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:59 am UTC

I don't agree with your book-rating system.

A book can be plenty good without one specifically climatic moment. in fact, if all I can remember from a book is one moment something is probably not right.
A good book to me is one that sucks you into it's world, makes you feel for it's characters and leaves you wanting more at the end of it. The worlds may be ludircrous (discworld) or dead serious (dune), but as long as they make you believe in them it works.

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Postby Lyra Ngalia » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:53 pm UTC

I think what I like most about WoT is the worldbuilding. The characters are all terrible (especially the women*) and there are way too many of them, but the world is so intricately built. I think I can also stomach the obvious references to Dune and LotR better because Jordan said a lot of those things were intentional, to give the impression that the WoT world is just our world at a different point on the wheel.

My favorite has to be New Spring. It's short, it deals with a few characters, and its plot wraps up by the end. Oh, and it gives a LOT of insight into Aes Sedai philosophy and the general workings of the White Tower.

Is anyone else amused/worried that Jordan's biography in the books claims he'll be "writing until they nail him into his coffin"? He really should finish that book before he dies...

* RJ's women characters behave like this:
*tug braid* *yells a bunch* *smooth skirts* *whines about her man* *tugs braid* *uses the One Power* *smooth skirts* *repeat until dead*
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Postby niende » Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:10 am UTC

:)
YOu totaly forgot Harumphing, Sniffing, Snorting, Staring and assorted other forms of non-verbal indignation at the muleheadedness of men.

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Postby sunkistbabe1 » Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:40 pm UTC

niende wrote::)
YOu totaly forgot Harumphing, Sniffing, Snorting, Staring and assorted other forms of non-verbal indignation at the muleheadedness of men.


You know, you're right. I never really thought about that until the last few posts. That part of the female characters is getting a little overdone and tiring to read. All the women think the men are babies that need to be led around by the nose and controlled by the women. The men think the women are all so stubborn and need to be put into their place. No one has actually grown very much or even thought once that they might not always be right. It's getting a tad irritating.
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Postby Lyra Ngalia » Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:54 am UTC

Let's face it, all the WoT characters need a good beating with a crowbar.

Especially Perrin. Could marriage have turned him into any more of a useless wuss? You're a damned dreamwalking wolfman. Show some balls.
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Postby Hammer » Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:59 am UTC

Lyra Ngalia wrote:Let's face it, all the WoT characters need a good beating with a crowbar.

Which they receive every three pages.
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Postby Lyra Ngalia » Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:21 am UTC

Hammer wrote:
Lyra Ngalia wrote:Let's face it, all the WoT characters need a good beating with a crowbar.

Which they receive every three pages.


Good point. Maybe it's Robert Jordan that needs a good beating?
Alternately, they obviously need a better beating.

I shouldn't be talking about a sick man this way, should I?
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Postby dumbclown » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:51 pm UTC

Yes, you should. I'll get the crowbar. Is one o'clock a good time for you to be giving out beatings to people? If not we can reschedule.

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Postby CelticxConnections » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:55 am UTC

CreemyNougat, Aiel humor is the best. Its always funny when someone stabs their husband.

I am currently on book 9. I almost put them down after book 7 and had been reading a few other books before I finished book 8. You definatly should not try to read them all one after another.

My favorite characters have to be Mat, Birgitte, and Olver. I use to like Perrin, Min, Nynaeve, and Aviendha but then they changed. Perrin never got a spine, Min, Nynaeve, and Aviendha all fell in love and need a good beating.

Does anyone else think that Elayne needs to be pushed off a cliff and Balefired at the same time?

And Asmodean killed himself via time travel. I have it all worked out you see, the other Asmodean is really Santa so he can time travel and such... I'll stop now.

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Postby taggedunion » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:29 am UTC

niende wrote:also, "hero of humble origins" is not exactly patented by Tolkien. Luke skywalker grew up on a farm, superman was riased in Smallville. even Moses was a sheepherder (or goat-herder?). not to mention king david or Jesus. You can't claim those were ripped from LoTR.


Actually, we can. Star Wars and Superman postdate LOTR. I would put good money on many of the plot points of Star Wars being... greatly influenced by LOTR.

I would agree that the "hero of humble origins", as you said, is a trope as old as storytelling. I've seen it in myths and legends from all around the world, including the slaves-to-rulers stories of the Hebrews and the Aztecs (have a look-see--the two are remarkably similar). Hell, look at your average, run-of-the-mill fairy tale: Puss in Boots, Jack and the Beanstalk, the boy who managed to stay all night in a haunted castle....

The agricultural origin is a throwback to our origins: not a 100 years ago, all civilizations depended on agricultural laborers who made up the great majority of the population, and most nations in the present day still have this arrangement. So, you were either a farmer or a nobleman; noblemen were already great, so the only way to have a rags-to-riches story would be to go from a farmer to a nobleman.

This seems especially less silly when most fantasy worlds are set in world resembling feudal Europe. In fact, the sillier thing is that you don't see or hear of more farmers in these stories. For all their worldbuilding, I get the feeling that a great many writers forgot to figure out the economy. Of course, most also seem to have D&D or WoW as their major influence, which doesn't help.
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Postby Lyra Ngalia » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:41 am UTC

dumbclown wrote:Yes, you should. I'll get the crowbar. Is one o'clock a good time for you to be giving out beatings to people? If not we can reschedule.


How about I just liberate a Zamboni? Seems more efficient than a crowbar.
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Postby Victorkm » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:46 pm UTC

I sort of hope Jordan does die so the book either doesnt come out or gets finished by his son/wife/editor. The nerdrage that would generate would be amazing.

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Postby dumbclown » Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:35 am UTC

Lyra Ngalia wrote:
dumbclown wrote:Yes, you should. I'll get the crowbar. Is one o'clock a good time for you to be giving out beatings to people? If not we can reschedule.


How about I just liberate a Zamboni? Seems more efficient than a crowbar.


It seems a bit impersonal. Really misses the face to face aspect. He might get the wrong idea about what the beating is for. The crowbar has more of a measure twice, beat once feel about it.

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Postby Alisto » Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:07 am UTC

GODDAMN IT!

Robert Jordan died.

http://wotmania.com/wotmessageboard2sho ... geID=68399

The blog itself is down.
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Postby sunkistbabe1 » Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:15 am UTC

Crap...
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Postby Lyra Ngalia » Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:22 am UTC

Well hell.

Are his heirs of the Christopher Tolkien or Brian Herbert variety?
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Postby Alisto » Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:26 am UTC

As I care more about the story and whatnot than the writing style itself, and since his wife Harriet is also his editor, it's not as bad as it seems. Also, he's been writing and dictating the book during his illness. But perhaps most importantly, recently he sat down with his family (his brothers and his wife) and told them the story of the last book. The entire story. They know it all.

So the book will come out, and the plot will be as it was intended to be. I'm just tired of waiting.

EDIT

This digg comment actually made me laugh:

"Robert Jordan died in a black polyester shirt, which was threaded with gold inlays of abstract patterns. The buttons were a shiny white gold, connected to the shirt using silvery white thread. His cuff links reflected the steel hard gaze of his wife, who shot him a look that could cut through rock. Her rich purple top was made with the finest Egyptian cotton..."
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Postby SecondTalon » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:08 pm UTC

Pfft.. not nearly a long enough description. I mean, where was the polyester created? Who mined the gold ore that became the White Gold? Were there any incantations uttered as the steel was poured into the molds?
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Postby Victorkm » Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:27 pm UTC

Victorkm wrote:I sort of hope Jordan does die so the book either doesnt come out or gets finished by his son/wife/editor. The nerdrage that would generate would be amazing.


Damn I called it within a week.

I should have dropped cash on it.

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Postby Pixel » Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:52 pm UTC

Is it wrong that I'm sort of amused that he didn't manage to survive to finish after promising this was the last book?
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Postby blob » Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:28 pm UTC

Alisto wrote:As I care more about the story and whatnot than the writing style itself, and since his wife Harriet is also his editor, it's not as bad as it seems. Also, he's been writing and dictating the book during his illness. But perhaps most importantly, recently he sat down with his family (his brothers and his wife) and told them the story of the last book. The entire story. They know it all.

But did they write it down?!

"Yes, he told it all to me. Thingamajam marries whosamaface. And there's, bam, there's sparks everywhere and that 'magic' stuff gets spilt on everybody's shirts..."
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Postby Victorkm » Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:42 pm UTC

blob wrote:But did they write it down?!

"Yes, he told it all to me. Thingamajam marries whosamaface. And there's, bam, there's sparks everywhere and that 'magic' stuff gets spilt on everybody's shirts..."


I'd read it. It would have to be better than his previous style.

BAZAM

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Postby SecondTalon » Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:42 pm UTC

"For some reason he was really insistent on the shirts, he even wrote down exactly what the shirts looked like... for, like, twelve hours straight. Wouldn't shut up about the damn shirts.. until he decided someone was going to tug a braid..."
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Postby SpitValve » Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:03 pm UTC

Fun fact: Hearing the phrase "tug a braid" made me cringe so much I almost doubled over just now.

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Postby Princess Marzipan » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:38 pm UTC

I think someone needs to be thumped with a stick on general principle.

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Postby bbctol » Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:25 pm UTC

ROBERT JORDAN DIED!!!

NOOOOOOO!!!

NOW I'LL NEVER KNOW HOW THE INCREASINGLY COMPLICATED BUT STILL ABSORBING PLOT ENDS!!!

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Postby Pause » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:04 pm UTC

CreemyNougat wrote:I think someone needs to be thumped with a stick on general principle.

*crosses arms above breasts*

*Exchanges silent look with other men in room*

*Leaves to find a game of dice*

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Postby Hiro » Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:45 am UTC

I was happier not knowing he died... 11 books = how many hours of my life??

Still, I really liked the books. Okay, fine, they got a little boring when a description of a dress went into the third page. But that was more than made up for by the complex literary references and the fact it was more of a Tolkien tribute than any book i read. I hope the last book gets published.
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Postby SpitValve » Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:34 am UTC

Hiro wrote:...it was more of a Tolkien tribute than any book i read.


I always felt it was less of a "tribute" and more just "unoriginal". Because basically, every fantasy story is at least indirectly based on LOTR...

The way I see it, LOTR + Dune + bad writing (at least, after the first 5 books or so) = WOT.

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Postby Lester :P » Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:01 pm UTC

I hate LOTR and strongly reject any claim that most fantasy is based on it.

Most fantasy is good.

This is so fucking sad.
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Postby Hammer » Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:30 pm UTC

I have another group of acquaintances who are mourning Jordan's passing quite hard.They agree that the later books need help, but many of them met, became lifelong friends, married, etc. because they met on a WOT fan newsgroup. Their shared enjoyment of the first few books actually did change many of their lives in very important ways and his death has made them think about what they wouldn't have without him.
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Postby Pathway » Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:48 pm UTC

Lyra Ngalia wrote:Well hell.

Are his heirs of the Christopher Tolkien or Brian Herbert variety?


Just to clarify: LN is saying that the Tolkien and Herbert varieties are two separate ways to handle your inherited IP. Herbert failed, Tolkien succeeded.

...Unless, that is, I'm misreading this :wink:

Lester :P wrote:I hate LOTR and strongly reject any claim that most fantasy is based on it.

Most fantasy is good.

This is so fucking sad.


Sorry, it's true. Just because you somehow don't recognize the massive influence of Tolkien's work doesn't mean it isn't one of the most widely read, widely imitated fantasy works in history.
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Postby Lyra Ngalia » Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:19 am UTC

Pathway wrote:
Lyra Ngalia wrote:Well hell.

Are his heirs of the Christopher Tolkien or Brian Herbert variety?


Just to clarify: LN is saying that the Tolkien and Herbert varieties are two separate ways to handle your inherited IP. Herbert failed, Tolkien succeeded.

...Unless, that is, I'm misreading this :wink:


I wasn't going to pass judgment on which was was better, but you've got the gist of it.
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