Ayn Rand

A slow, analog alternative to the internet

Moderators: SecondTalon, Moderators General, Prelates

mountaingoat
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:01 am UTC

Ayn Rand

Postby mountaingoat » Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:55 am UTC

I see there is some (A LOT) of distaste for Ayn Rand here.


Does anyone actually like Ayn Rand?

User avatar
Bakemaster
pretty nice future dick
Posts: 8933
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:33 pm UTC
Location: One of those hot places

Postby Bakemaster » Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:04 am UTC

I enjoyed the Fountainhead. Her followers are slightly less kooky than Scientologists. Her philosophy is a bit sad and incomplete.

But I did enjoy the Fountainhead.
Image
c0 = 2.13085531 × 1014 smoots per fortnight
"Apparently you can't summon an alternate timeline clone of your inner demon, guys! Remember that." —Noc

User avatar
Castaway
Mr. Fancy-Pants
Posts: 2150
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:05 am UTC
Location: Brooklyn
Contact:

Postby Castaway » Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:14 am UTC

I just finished the Fountainhead and let me say this:
The woman is bad at english. The story was pretty interesting, but some of the writing was so ridiculous and ill thought out that it was difficult to get through. Also, I hate Objectivism and I think it's really antithetical to humanity and the way that humanity progresses. I enjoyed some of the characters, but only because they were so repulsive (especially Roarke.)
You've just lost twenty dollars and my self respect.

Rat wrote: so i sprinted back down this hill like a fucking mountain goat

toysbfun
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:14 am UTC
Contact:

Postby toysbfun » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:39 am UTC

Castaway wrote:The woman is bad at english.

In her defense, she came to America from the Soviet Union at 21 and English is one of, if not *the* hardest languages to learn as a second language. That being said, I'm working on an audiobook of "Atlas Shrugged." If I ever finish it, I'll let you know what I think of it.

User avatar
Mighty Jalapeno
Inne Juste 7 Dayes I Wille Make You A Hero!
Posts: 11265
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 9:16 pm UTC
Location: Prince George In A Can
Contact:

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:42 am UTC

BARBRADY
And finally, I'd like to say that
READING TOTALLY SUCKS ASS!!

KIDS
Hurray.

The crowd looks confused.

BARBRADY
Yes, at first, I was happy to be
learning how to read. It seemed
exciting and magical. But then I
read this --

Barbrady holds up a copy of ATLAS SHRUGGED, by Ayn Rand. All
1085 pages of it.

BARBRADY
Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand. I read
every last word of this garbage and
because of this piece of ****, I'm
never reading again!

STAN AND KYLE
Hurrah for Barbrady!!!

The crowd goes wild again!!!

KYLE
Wow, I guess reading really does
suck ass.

CARTMAN
Hey, that's what I've been saying
all along, you guys.

STAN
I'm just glad everything turned out
okay and Barbrady got his job back.

KYLE
It's poetic justice.

Barbrady looks down with a smile.

BARBRADY
Thanks boys.

He gives them a thumbs up. FREEZE-FRAME and play survivor
music.

A big tree falls over on top of Kenny, killing him.

THE END

User avatar
Vaniver
Posts: 9422
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:12 am UTC

Postby Vaniver » Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:32 am UTC

Ayn Rand has several passages and ideas that I just love. And then she wraps them in hundreds upon hundreds of pages of mediocrity, with several pieces of crap thrown in for good measure. Like, for example, take Francisco's speech. It's relatively compact, it has a great point and it gets it across fairly well. But, it functions far better as an essay than it does as a piece of a novel.

Objectivism would be great if it didn't mistake a means for an ends, but it does. And a fundamentally mistaken philosophy is... not worth much.
I mostly post over at LessWrong now.

Avatar from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, owned by Hasbro.

User avatar
Arancaytar
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:54 am UTC
Location: 52.44°N, 13.55°E
Contact:

Postby Arancaytar » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:38 am UTC

slightly less kooky than Scientologists


Slightly warmer than liquid nitrogen? :?
"You cannot dual-wield the sharks. One is enough." -Our DM.
Image

User avatar
Bakemaster
pretty nice future dick
Posts: 8933
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:33 pm UTC
Location: One of those hot places

Postby Bakemaster » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:19 pm UTC

To be fair, Randites or Randians or whatever-the-fuck they're calling themselves have done a lot of which she would completely disapprove, were she alive today.
Image
c0 = 2.13085531 × 1014 smoots per fortnight
"Apparently you can't summon an alternate timeline clone of your inner demon, guys! Remember that." —Noc

User avatar
Mighty Jalapeno
Inne Juste 7 Dayes I Wille Make You A Hero!
Posts: 11265
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 9:16 pm UTC
Location: Prince George In A Can
Contact:

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:20 pm UTC

Bakemaster wrote:To be fair, Randites or Randians or whatever-the-fuck they're calling themselves have done a lot of which she would completely disapprove, were she alive today.

Ah, so she's a religion.

User avatar
Vaniver
Posts: 9422
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:12 am UTC

Postby Vaniver » Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:47 pm UTC

Bakemaster wrote:To be fair, Randites or Randians or whatever-the-fuck they're calling themselves have done a lot of which she would completely disapprove, were she alive today.
I hear that she was quite the ideologue, so I don't know how true that is.
I mostly post over at LessWrong now.

Avatar from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, owned by Hasbro.

toysbfun
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:14 am UTC
Contact:

Postby toysbfun » Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:34 pm UTC

Bakemaster wrote:To be fair, Randites or Randians or whatever-the-fuck they're calling themselves have done a lot of which she would completely disapprove, were she alive today.


Objectivists? And couldn't that be applied to almost any founder of a worldview?

User avatar
TLP
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 4:46 am UTC
Location: Philadelphia

Postby TLP » Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:36 pm UTC

Bakemaster wrote:To be fair, Randites or Randians or whatever-the-fuck they're calling themselves have done a lot of which she would completely disapprove, were she alive today.


I like Randroid :D

I just finished The Fountainhead not too long ago, and I liked it as a book. I read it mostly so I wouldn't seem completely unfounded when I make fun of her. There were a few passages and points she made that I agreed with, but there was plenty of absurdity to drown it out.

User avatar
albert
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:27 pm UTC
Location: Philadelphia/Detroit
Contact:

Postby albert » Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:10 pm UTC

I think she has a lot of appeal to teenagers who read it. Most of us grow out of it though.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Postby Belial » Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:52 pm UTC

Yeah, it occurs to me that if I had read Rand when I was a teenager, I would've thought that it was "Oh me yarm, SO WISE!"

Gods, I *sucked* when I was a teenager. Am I ever glad that shit is over....
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Hammer
Because all of you look like nails.
Posts: 5491
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 7:32 pm UTC
Contact:

Postby Hammer » Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:08 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Yeah, it occurs to me that if I had read Rand when I was a teenager, I would've thought that it was "Oh me yarm, SO WISE!"

I seem to recall reading everything she ever wrote as a teenager and finding it ever so important because I thought it meant I got to be as selfish as I wanted and none of the consequences were valid.

I got over it.

Although, even at the time, I remember that I had a hard time reconciling how I felt about Dagny leaving Eddie behind the way she did with my newfound sense of "screw everybody else".

BTW, wasn't Alan Greenspan a big fan of hers?
"What's wrong with you mathematicians? Cake is never a problem."

User avatar
clockworkmonk
I'm on a horse!
Posts: 649
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:53 am UTC
Location: Austin

Postby clockworkmonk » Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:31 pm UTC

I read The Fountainhead when I was 16 or so. I was not too impressed. But my reading list has always been, well, odd. The art of war at 10, the prince at 12, Alice in wonderland at 15, I seem to do most things out of order.

I did find the characters in The fountainhead wonderfully melodramatic though. All of them acting like no people I've ever met. I enjoyed the book, just not the philosophy.
418 I'm a teapot

User avatar
the Cow
Today India, tomorrow the world!
Posts: 2199
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:40 pm UTC
Contact:

Postby the Cow » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:53 pm UTC

Atlas Shrugged is really funny, in both senses of the word. I love how it goes from film noir conspiracy/mystery to pseudo-formal logic (the funniest part) to bizarre and silly sci-fi.

To all of the self important oh-so-serious teenage intellectual wanna be know-it-alls: you must buy this book, put it on the shelf next to Nietzsche, quote from it with authority. The world is waiting.
...the whim of a hat.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26833
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:25 pm UTC

clockworkmonk wrote:I read The Fountainhead when I was 16 or so. I was not too impressed. But my reading list has always been, well, odd. The art of war at 10, the prince at 12, Alice in wonderland at 15, I seem to do most things out of order.


Meaning, I presume, that Rand is meant for a younger audience than Carrol?
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
Marbas
Posts: 1169
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:01 am UTC
Location: Down down down at the bottom of the sea
Contact:

Postby Marbas » Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:36 pm UTC

My opinions on Ayn Rand and Atlas Shrugged can be summed up as follows:

I really liked Going Postal by Terry Pratchett.
Jahoclave wrote:Do you have any idea how much more fun the holocaust is with "Git er Done" as the catch phrase?

User avatar
Mighty Jalapeno
Inne Juste 7 Dayes I Wille Make You A Hero!
Posts: 11265
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 9:16 pm UTC
Location: Prince George In A Can
Contact:

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:38 pm UTC

Marbas wrote:My opinions on Ayn Rand and Atlas Shrugged can be summed up as follows:

I really liked Going Postal by Terry Pratchett.

Hehe, reminds me of my review for Master of Orion III.... "Master of Orion II was amazing."

User avatar
Marbas
Posts: 1169
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:01 am UTC
Location: Down down down at the bottom of the sea
Contact:

Postby Marbas » Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:39 pm UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:
Marbas wrote:My opinions on Ayn Rand and Atlas Shrugged can be summed up as follows:

I really liked Going Postal by Terry Pratchett.

Hehe, reminds me of my review for Master of Orion III.... "Master of Orion II was amazing."


:lol:

I don't get it.

For those who don't know: Going Postal was a rebuttal and parody of Atlas Shrugged.
Jahoclave wrote:Do you have any idea how much more fun the holocaust is with "Git er Done" as the catch phrase?

jwwells
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:47 am UTC

Postby jwwells » Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:02 am UTC

It is worthwhile, sometimes, to pose an idea that is wrong in interesting, challenging ways. It is even better to pose it concisely and rigorously. Rand does the first, but not the second.

Ghona
Posts: 246
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 1:28 am UTC

Postby Ghona » Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:57 pm UTC

Marbas wrote:
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:
Marbas wrote:My opinions on Ayn Rand and Atlas Shrugged can be summed up as follows:

I really liked Going Postal by Terry Pratchett.

Hehe, reminds me of my review for Master of Orion III.... "Master of Orion II was amazing."


:lol:

I don't get it.

For those who don't know: Going Postal was a rebuttal and parody of Atlas Shrugged.

[Citation Needed]

Rand's real problem is she confuses quality with morality.
If you're taking me too seriously, you probably are making a mistake.

User avatar
william
Not a Raptor. Honest.
Posts: 2418
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:02 pm UTC
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Contact:

Postby william » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:06 pm UTC

And she confuses her perception with the entire universe.
SecondTalon wrote:A pile of shit can call itself a delicious pie, but that doesn't make it true.

User avatar
Narsil
Ask me about my junk!
Posts: 2995
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:59 pm UTC
Location: Columbus.

Postby Narsil » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:30 am UTC

Somehow I get the feeling that I could get everything I want out of the book "Atlas Shrugged" by playing the game "Bioshock". This is a first-person shooter set in the "Atlas Shrugged" universe. I don't know either.

Anyway, I also wanted a book that would challenge me, but I guess this isn't it. Should I move on to Thomas Pynchon, then?
Spoiler:
EsotericWombat wrote:MORE JUNK THAN YOUR BODY HAS ROOM FOR

Mother Superior wrote:What's he got that I dont?
*sees Narsil's sig*
Oh... that.

User avatar
Marbas
Posts: 1169
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:01 am UTC
Location: Down down down at the bottom of the sea
Contact:

Postby Marbas » Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:43 am UTC

Ghona wrote:
Marbas wrote:
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:
Marbas wrote:My opinions on Ayn Rand and Atlas Shrugged can be summed up as follows:

I really liked Going Postal by Terry Pratchett.

Hehe, reminds me of my review for Master of Orion III.... "Master of Orion II was amazing."


:lol:

I don't get it.

For those who don't know: Going Postal was a rebuttal and parody of Atlas Shrugged.

[Citation Needed]



D'oh!

Let this be a lesson to all on why you shouldn't trust wikipedia for information unless it's specifically cited. It used have a decently convincing justification of this in the form of written arguments...and they're gone now.

You can find proof of this if you google search Ayn Rand and Going Postal at the same time, whereupon you'll get this as your first hit;
Going Postal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The name comes from the American saying 'Going postal'. The entire novel is a rebuttal, parody, and response to Ayn Rand's famous novel, Atlas Shrugged. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_Postal - 36k - Cached - Similar pages
Jahoclave wrote:Do you have any idea how much more fun the holocaust is with "Git er Done" as the catch phrase?

User avatar
b.i.o
Green is the loneliest number
Posts: 2519
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:38 pm UTC
Location: Hong Kong

Postby b.i.o » Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:32 pm UTC

It's in the history...but all it has are a few pretty unconvincing sentences: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... =148059184

User avatar
Marbas
Posts: 1169
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:01 am UTC
Location: Down down down at the bottom of the sea
Contact:

Postby Marbas » Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:56 pm UTC

Silver2Falcon wrote:It's in the history...but all it has are a few pretty unconvincing sentences: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... =148059184


Alright then...I've fucked up AGAIN.
Jahoclave wrote:Do you have any idea how much more fun the holocaust is with "Git er Done" as the catch phrase?

User avatar
McHell
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:52 pm UTC
Location: Ellowen Deeowen

Postby McHell » Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:31 pm UTC

Narsil wrote:Should I move on to Thomas Pynchon, then?


Gravity's Rainbow is pretty Randian... There's hilarious lines, but they don't make any sense. Loved V and The Crying, but Rainbow was like torturing small puppies over and over --- I approve of the sentiment but I don't want to be there. The first half is anal rape fantasies over and over with no bearing on anything, then a lot of running around and misunderstanding allegiances and plotting, and then nothing. Now bananas, that's a good topic.

As for someone allowing for Rand's torturing of the language, with the excuse that it's so hard to learn english: e.g. Joseph Conrad "did not become fluent in English until the age of 21, and in 1886 gained both his Master Mariner's certificate and British citizenship" (we're speaking of a 19th century Pole who went to France to become a sailor at 16) --- yet he wrote masterly prose like Heart o' Darkness and Lord Jim and ...eh [the one about the suicide bombing].

User avatar
lowbrass
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:47 am UTC
Location: The Emerald City, Washington
Contact:

Postby lowbrass » Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:17 pm UTC

I actually happen to like Rand's writing. Even thought it is very long-winded, and at some points, it seems like she's just ignoring the story while having her characters spout pages and pages of monologues on her philosophy, I think it has literary merit (but hey, feel free to ignore everything I say about writing. I'm an engineer.)

Although I don't agree with all of her philosophy, I do think it's a very interesting idea. I know when I read The Fountainhead when I was 18 I was very apprehensive of it. But I read it again 3 years later and I find myself agreeing with it more and more.

Ok, I guess you guys can start calling me a horrible person now >_<

User avatar
McHell
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:52 pm UTC
Location: Ellowen Deeowen

Postby McHell » Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:17 pm UTC

In american academic circles there's a strong admiration for her. I've never understood it but often sensed it. I see partly where some native superhero thinking is appealed, but the objectivism `philosophy' is not really of any use as it brings precious little insight.

But the writing in unredeemably bad, whatever you think of the worth of the ideas. To find the interesting ideas you have to hack through a dehumanized forest of sentences.

User avatar
Nyarlathotep
Not a god. Not even a titan.
Posts: 1693
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:02 pm UTC
Location: Washington, DC

Postby Nyarlathotep » Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:34 pm UTC

... could someone please humor the ignorant person and 1. sum up this woman's philosophy and 2. tell me what these "randians" are and if they really are as insane as Scientologists?
'Gehȳrst þū, sǣlida, hwæt þis folc segeð?
hī willað ēow tō gafole gāras syllan,
ǣttrynne ord and ealde swurd,
þā heregeatu þe ēow æt hilde ne dēah.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Postby Belial » Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:42 pm UTC

1. sum up this woman's philosophy


The incredibly uncharitable rendition by someone who rather hates it:

If everyone is as unabashedly and directly selfish as possible, everything will work out. Somehow.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
dansez dansez dansez
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:24 am UTC

Postby dansez dansez dansez » Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:23 am UTC

Belial wrote:Yeah, it occurs to me that if I had read Rand when I was a teenager, I would've thought that it was "Oh me yarm, SO WISE!"


Yeah, I shouldn't...

However, I also agree that Ayn Rand sucks and that her followers are very culty.

And what is your sig from? It sounds very modern, which leads me to believe you might've written it. If so, are you aware that the Yazidis believe God said something similar to Melek Taus, the peacock angel?

Of course, the message of this story is rather different. God tells Melek Taus that he is the greatest and not to bow before any other. Then God creates man, and tells the angels to bow, and Melek Taus refuses. So now the Yazidis worship him.
Once I was a little light

User avatar
drosophila
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:53 pm UTC
Location: NY, MD, or TN

Postby drosophila » Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:19 am UTC

Nyarlathotep wrote:... could someone please humor the ignorant person and 1. sum up this woman's philosophy and 2. tell me what these "randians" are and if they really are as insane as Scientologists?


1. Belial's right. It's kind of a more extreme kind of Adam Smith, where everyone being selfish works out for the best. Except it doesn't just apply to economics, you are supposed to bring it into your personal life as well.

2. Randians or Objectivists, subscribe to this philosophy. As for sanity, they are idealists, and any idealist is at least a little crazy. I wouldn't lump them with Scientologists so much, since they are ultra-extreme capitalists (something that at least nominally works) rather than ultra-extreme science fiction fans (something without any reality). I would lump the Randians (Randites, Randroids, Randies, Randoodles...) closer to Libertarians. (ducks and covers for incoming assault)

I read Atlas Shrugged when I was 17. Marx was my God at the time, so it didn't get much of a chance. Through older eyes, I'm still convinced that the damn book could be at least 400 pages shorter. (Although the only Objectivist friend I ever had had the same problem. He wrote rambling ten-page papers when the teacher asked for 1-2 pg responses.)

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Postby Belial » Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:14 am UTC

dansez dansez dansez wrote:And what is your sig from? It sounds very modern, which leads me to believe you might've written it.


I wish. "Lucifer" by Mike Carey and Peter Gross. It's a spinoff of "Sandman", so probably not your cup of tea.

drosophilia wrote:1. Belial's right. It's kind of a more extreme kind of Adam Smith, where everyone being selfish works out for the best. Except it doesn't just apply to economics, you are supposed to bring it into your personal life as well.


Indeed. One of my friends in college became an objectivist and immediately became about 20 times more annoying to be around.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

Ghona
Posts: 246
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 1:28 am UTC

Postby Ghona » Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:00 am UTC

McHell wrote:As for someone allowing for Rand's torturing of the language, with the excuse that it's so hard to learn english: e.g. Joseph Conrad "did not become fluent in English until the age of 21, and in 1886 gained both his Master Mariner's certificate and British citizenship" (we're speaking of a 19th century Pole who went to France to become a sailor at 16) --- yet he wrote masterly prose like Heart o' Darkness and Lord Jim and ...eh [the one about the suicide bombing].


Bringing up Heart of Darkness isn't helping your side, you know.
If you're taking me too seriously, you probably are making a mistake.

User avatar
dansez dansez dansez
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:24 am UTC

Postby dansez dansez dansez » Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:19 am UTC

Belial wrote:I wish. "Lucifer" by Mike Carey and Peter Gross. It's a spinoff of "Sandman", so probably not your cup of tea.


That makes sense. Its like trying to sound cool but not having it.

That's how I feel about Gaiman's stuff. He's got the intent, but it doesn't work.
Once I was a little light

User avatar
McHell
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:52 pm UTC
Location: Ellowen Deeowen

Postby McHell » Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:06 am UTC

Ghona wrote:Bringing up Heart of Darkness isn't helping your side, you know.

dansez dansez dansez wrote:That's how I feel about Gaiman's stuff. He's got the intent, but it doesn't work.

What, two calls for Vale Tudo battles within two posts?

User avatar
Hammer
Because all of you look like nails.
Posts: 5491
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 7:32 pm UTC
Contact:

Postby Hammer » Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:41 pm UTC

dansez dansez dansez wrote:That makes sense. Its like trying to sound cool but not having it.

I know you are not fond of Neil Gaiman, but that was a rude thing to say to Belial. Was it your intention to be insulting to him?
"What's wrong with you mathematicians? Cake is never a problem."


Return to “Books”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests