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Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:00 am UTC
by Quixotess
Obviously the title is an example of a consonant "form" that, when filled in with any of the five "always" vowels, forms a word. They're surprisingly difficult to come up with; plus I keep coming up with them and then forgetting. The other two that I can remember are
Tan ten tin ton tun (a tun is a wine cask)
Last lest list lost lust

Is there a name for this, and if not, should we make one up? Can you think of any more? Also, CHALLENGES:

1. Find one that works with all six vowels including y.
2. Find one with two syllables.

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:57 am UTC
by Robin S
If you include proper nouns, then mast, Mest, mist, most, must, Myst works.
If not, how about bat, bet, bit, bot, but, byte? It's close.
Or dan, den, din, don, dun, dyn, if you count abbreviations (dyn is only an abbreviation for dyne, so again it's a close call).
Finally, is "dane" a proper noun when describing one of Danish ancestry (or a breed of dog, for that matter)? If not, then dane, dene, dine, done, dune, dyne fits the bill perfectly, and I'm sure there are many, many other examples. The overwhelming majority, however, are likely to contain obscure words.

A similar situation occurs with pangrams: "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" is the best-known example, but even substituting "a" for one of the "the"s, it's got 7 duplicated letters. You can lose one further letter by rearranging to "Quick brown dogs jump over the lazy fox", and after that, it starts to get silly. The shortest reasonably sensible one I know of is "The five boxing wizards jump quickly", at 31 letters; by the time you get down to 27, you're stuck with things like "Big fjords vex quick waltz nymph." For 26, we have such atrocities as "Quack: 'XL VD zit grew of nymph's BJ'" ('A false doctor attributes large genital wart to oral sex performed by a nymph') or, if you don't like acronyms or proper nouns, "Jink cwm, zag veldt, fob qursh pyx" ('Cross valley and plain to steal coins from Saudi mint', apparently, but I would be very surprised if any of those words have been used seriously by English-speakers in their natural context for quite a few centuries).

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:10 am UTC
by 4=5
so ooo eee and oh don't count? it's only letterized vowels?
had hid hod hud darn no hed
got gat git get gut
hot hat hit hut no het
slot slat slit slut no slet

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:21 am UTC
by Quixotess
I was assuming Scrabble rules for determining which words count: no abbreviations, no proper nouns. Obscure words are fine, except that it's not as cool. Foreign words don't count unless you can find them in an English dictionary.

So the bat group and dan group both work (great job), but neither meets challenge 1.

When I looked up Dane in my dictionary (Oxford), it was entered with a capital letter, which, alas, makes it a proper noun.

Also note that b*t, d*n, and b*g still work when you add an s at the end, but l*st does not. (nat net nit not nut...curses.)

@ 4=5: I lol'd. For some reason it's usually the e's that get me too.

As for your question, yeah, it has to be exactly one vowel. "heat" is cheating. Although it doesn't matter what sound they make, if that's what you were asking. "be" and "to" would both count.

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:35 am UTC
by Robin S
Shame - "Dwayne" also works, but it's got (arguably) three effective vowels and is a proper name.

A humorous, but mildly relevant, aside, from Wikipedia: here is a sample of the contents for "The Beatles", as it currently stands:

1 1957–60: Formation
2 Musical influences
3 1960–7�The Beatles
3.1 Hamburg
3.2 Record contract
3.3 America
3.4 Beatlemania crosses the Atlantic
3.5 Backlash and controversy
3.6 Studio years
3.7 Breakup: Let It Be

And here, for comparison, is a sample of the contents of "Mest", referenced above:

1 History
1.1 Break up
1.2 Post-breakup
1.2.1 Fatal stabbing

Morbid perhaps, but it made me chuckle.

Edit: got rid of quote tags; formatting was playing up.

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:18 am UTC
by ZLVT
Quixotess wrote:I was assuming Scrabble rules for determining which words count: no abbreviations, no proper nouns. Obscure words are fine, except that it's not as cool. Foreign words don't count unless you can find them in an English dictionary.

When I looked up Dane in my dictionary (Oxford), it was entered with a capital letter, which, alas, makes it a proper noun.

Also note that b*t, d*n, and b*g still work when you add an s at the end, but l*st does not. .


I belive "dane" is also a title of peerage.

Anywho, why does l*st not work?

last - adj
lest - archaic but still preserved so it's hardly dragging somethign through the ages.
list - int. v.
lost - adj
lust - v.

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:26 am UTC
by Quixotess
No no no, I mean that the other ones can be pluralized (b*ts) but l*st cannot. Because of losts, and also probably lests.

Actually, I don't think b*gs works either, because of bigs. Drat!

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:13 am UTC
by evilbeanfiend
p*t and p*ts
h*t (though het is somewhat obscure)
p*ll
b*ll and b*lls

a tactic that seems to work well is to look for words with u in then check the others on the theory that u is least likely to be a word

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:58 pm UTC
by masher
ZLVT wrote:lest - archaic but still preserved so it's hardly dragging somethign through the ages.


I still use it in everyday speech....

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:57 pm UTC
by ZLVT
evilbeanfiend wrote:p*t and p*ts
h*t (though het is somewhat obscure)
p*ll
b*ll and b*lls



what, pray, is "pell"?

@masher: fair enough, but many people don't and I think it's really some variant of an outdate phrase. Anyone know the etymology on that?

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:00 pm UTC
by 4=5
I think it's "unless" - 'less - lest

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:19 pm UTC
by Simbera
@ZVLT: if you were throwing stuff into a suitcase without folding them neatly, you could say you were just throwing them in pell- mell.

<^>

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:49 pm UTC
by SpitValve
4=5 wrote:I think it's "unless" - 'less - lest


It means something quite different to "unless". If you say "Let's invade Scotland lest they make more haggis!" then that means "Let's invade Scotland so that they don't make more haggis!". It doesn't mean "Let's invade Scotland, but only if they don't make more haggis!"

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:53 pm UTC
by 4=5
I got it mixed up in my brain, you're right

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:39 pm UTC
by gmalivuk
I like the phonetic analogue of these, whereby each different vowel *sound* is stuck between a pair of consonants. You can pretty much get all the American English vowels between [b] and [t]:

beat [bi:t]
bit [bɪt]
bait [beɪt]
bet [bɛt]
bat [bæt]
bot [bɑt]
bite [baɪt]
boot [bu:t]
bout [bɑʊt]
but, stressed in a sentence [bʌt]
but, unstressed [bət]

Unfortunately, [bʊt] isn't a word (would rhyme with the kind of "put" that isn't a golf move). And if I use p instead of b, we get all of them except now [ə] is missing, since there aren't any p-t words with merely grammatical meanings that are as unstressed as "but" sometimes is in a sentence.

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:50 pm UTC
by hnooch
Is "bout" usually transcribed as [bɑʊt]? I've seen that vowel sound more often transcribed as [baʊt], and I even say it more like [bæʊt].

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:55 am UTC
by Eschatokyrios
gmalivuk wrote:I like the phonetic analogue of these, whereby each different vowel *sound* is stuck between a pair of consonants. You can pretty much get all the American English vowels between [b] and [t]:

beat [bi:t]
bit [bɪt]
bait [beɪt]
bet [bɛt]
bat [bæt]
bot [bɑt]
bite [baɪt]
boot [bu:t]
bout [bɑʊt]
but, stressed in a sentence [bʌt]
but, unstressed [bət]

Unfortunately, [bʊt] isn't a word (would rhyme with the kind of "put" that isn't a golf move). And if I use p instead of b, we get all of them except now [ə] is missing, since there aren't any p-t words with merely grammatical meanings that are as unstressed as "but" sometimes is in a sentence.


My English dialect doesn't distinguish ʌ and ə, or if there is a contrast it manifests itself primarily as stress and only secondarily as a quality difference. So "p-t" works for me. Except for [paɪt], I can't think of any native English word that's pronounced so. Unless I'm missing something stupidly obvious.

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:54 am UTC
by masher
ZLVT wrote:@masher: fair enough, but many people don't and I think it's really some variant of an outdate phrase. Anyone know the etymology on that?


Don't know about etymology, but I've always used it as a synonym for "for fear that".

<ENIDBLYTON>"We daren't peer into that well lest we fall in"</ENID>

edit: Maybe this: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=lest

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:58 pm UTC
by Robin S
ZLVT wrote:I belive "dane" is also a title of peerage.
The closest titles I've heard are "dean" and "dame".

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:03 am UTC
by gmalivuk
Eschatokyrios wrote:My English dialect doesn't distinguish ʌ and ə, or if there is a contrast it manifests itself primarily as stress and only secondarily as a quality difference.

Yes, that is normally how the schwa is manifested. No vowel, when pronounced fully, tends to sound like ə, but rather like one of the other ones. However, since so many unstressed syllables in English words (in any modern dialect that I know of) don't get the full pronunciation of the vowel, the schwa ends up being about the most common vowel in English speech.

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:45 am UTC
by steewi
gmalivuk wrote:I like the phonetic analogue of these, whereby each different vowel *sound* is stuck between a pair of consonants. You can pretty much get all the American English vowels between [b] and [t]:

beat [bi:t]
bit [bɪt]
bait [beɪt]
bet [bɛt]
bat [bæt]
bot [bɑt]
bite [baɪt]
boot [bu:t]
bout [bɑʊt]
but, stressed in a sentence [bʌt]
but, unstressed [bət]

Unfortunately, [bʊt] isn't a word (would rhyme with the kind of "put" that isn't a golf move). And if I use p instead of b, we get all of them except now [ə] is missing, since there aren't any p-t words with merely grammatical meanings that are as unstressed as "but" sometimes is in a sentence.


For clarity and ease of dialect issues, you could give them phonology slashes, e.g. /beɪt/

We've used h_d frames in the same way (for Australian English):

heed /hi:d/
hid /hɪd/
hayed /heɪd/ (in dancing)
head /hɛd/
had /hæd/
hod /hɔd/
hide /haɪd/
who'd /hu:d/
how'd /haʊd/
HUD, /hʌd/
had, unstressed /həd/ (except that the [h] is usually elided)
hood /hʊd/
hoed /həʊd/
who 'ad /hʊəd/ (really stretching it - for me, it rhymes with "toured")
heared /hiəd/ (just getting ridiculous for the frame - rhymes with "tiered" and "feared" - Cordwainer Smith uses "hiered" to refer to telepathic communication)
whored /hɔ:d/

It's a pity about hud. Fix'd

Edited to add 'hoed', "who 'ad" and "heared"
Edited again to add "whored" and "HUD"

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:18 am UTC
by evilbeanfiend
ZLVT wrote:what, pray, is "pell"?


well there is pell-mell and it appears to be in my browser dictionary but i don't know why.

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:05 pm UTC
by markfiend
steewi:
whored?

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:00 pm UTC
by gmalivuk
HUD = Head-Up Display, which I at least usually pronounce as a word.

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:15 am UTC
by steewi
markfiend wrote:steewi:
whored?


Oh, yeah. I'll edit it in. (And I'll leave it as whored, instead of hoard...)

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:28 pm UTC
by ave_matthew
sort of off topic, but what's the longest sentence that you can think of that uses mostly minimal pairs, how 'bout.

I hate heat hut hot hat hit hoots.
*hoots may not count, can't tell*
"I hate the hoots of the heat hut's hot hats when they hit"
only I and hoots are not, and hoots is damn close.

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:54 am UTC
by Eschatokyrios
gmalivuk wrote:
Eschatokyrios wrote:My English dialect doesn't distinguish ʌ and ə, or if there is a contrast it manifests itself primarily as stress and only secondarily as a quality difference.

Yes, that is normally how the schwa is manifested. No vowel, when pronounced fully, tends to sound like ə, but rather like one of the other ones. However, since so many unstressed syllables in English words (in any modern dialect that I know of) don't get the full pronunciation of the vowel, the schwa ends up being about the most common vowel in English speech.


I still question the phonemic status of [ʌ], though. I don't see any reason offhand why you couldn't analyze [ʌ] as a simply the realization of the phoneme /ə/ in a stressed syllable.

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:04 pm UTC
by gmalivuk
Eschatokyrios wrote:I still question the phonemic status of [ʌ], though. I don't see any reason offhand why you couldn't analyze [ʌ] as a simply the realization of the phoneme /ə/ in a stressed syllable.

Well, the two sounds are produced differently, and are distinguishable in sound as well. So they're different phonemes.

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:31 pm UTC
by jimrandomh
Eschatokyrios wrote:I still question the phonemic status of [ʌ], though. I don't see any reason offhand why you couldn't analyze [ʌ] as a simply the realization of the phoneme /ə/ in a stressed syllable.

It works better if you flip it around - /ʌ/ is a phoneme and [ə] is its realization in an unstressed syllable. This makes more sense because other vowels also reduce to [ə]; for example, /ɛ/->[ə] in "said" and /æ/->[ə] in "and".

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:07 am UTC
by steewi
/ʌ/ rarely = [ʌ], certainly for Australian English.

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 4:07 pm UTC
by Felstaff
Hey, the [b] [vowel-sound] [t] thing works for loadsa shtuff.

batter better bitter butter biter boater booter barter bater ...no 'botter' though,

also, [p][vowel sound][-nɖ] works well with most.

panned/pander, pained, penned/depend, pinned/spindle, pined, pond, lampooned, pound, pundit, pwned (pawned or poaned)

No pynd words, (unless I apply "spyndicate": a new portmanteu, created just now.) even though pinned is a good substitution, as pined also exists for Ī

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 2:06 pm UTC
by Leftmost Cat
gmalivuk wrote:Well, the two sounds are produced differently, and are distinguishable in sound as well. So they're different phonemes.

Two sounds being produced differently and distinguishable does not make them phonemic. Certainly they're different phones, but I challenge you to find minimal pairs with schwa. Schwa is a phone of a few different vowel phonemes in English, generally pronounced in unstressed environments. I've never seen a bit of evidence that it contrasts with anything. Keep in mind, though, that this doesn't hold for other languages. Lillooet, an Interior Salishan language from the US Pacific Northwest, does have contrastive schwa and is far from alone.

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:35 pm UTC
by BrainMagMo
Leftmost Cat wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Well, the two sounds are produced differently, and are distinguishable in sound as well. So they're different phonemes.

Two sounds being produced differently and distinguishable does not make them phonemic. Certainly they're different phones, but I challenge you to find minimal pairs with schwa. Schwa is a phone of a few different vowel phonemes in English, generally pronounced in unstressed environments. I've never seen a bit of evidence that it contrasts with anything. Keep in mind, though, that this doesn't hold for other languages. Lillooet, an Interior Salishan language from the US Pacific Northwest, does have contrastive schwa and is far from alone.

Wikipedia sez: At least for American Dialects, ə is never contrastive.
however, it is contrastive in RP, but only because they have əɹ->ə (_#, _C).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Phonology#Vowels

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:07 pm UTC
by Quixotess
Oh look, thread necro. Super convenient too, because just the other night I FINALLY thought of one that is two syllables.

masses messes misses mosses musses

It's just the plurals of another one, but still. Hooray!

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:23 pm UTC
by Bobber
Felstaff wrote:Hey, the [b] [vowel-sound] [t] thing works for loadsa shtuff.

batter better bitter butter biter boater booter barter bater ...no 'botter' though,



If you've ever played a popular MMORPG, I will assure you that there is, indeed, something called a 'botter'.

Along with brutal slaughtering of helpless English words that makes pre-teen text message speak bleak in comparison.

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:48 am UTC
by Cryopyre
phhhtt, you've apparently never seen a preteen text message. MMOs aren't that bad, but he IS right. Botter=word in MMOs

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:30 pm UTC
by Bobber
Cryopyre wrote:phhhtt, you've apparently never seen a preteen text message. MMOs aren't that bad, but he IS right. Botter=word in MMOs


Example from one minute ago:

":( but i wna b able to posn my wep :("
"i'l sap him n try openin it c if that works ^_^"

Not that bad maybe, but still dangerous to your eyes and brain.

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:22 am UTC
by Cryopyre
Yeah, but I know kids that post like you tubers, every time! I can't stand dumb people, it's a shame the dumber chicks seem to like me more than the smart ones.

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:27 am UTC
by Rilian
Quixotess wrote:Tan ten tin ton tun (a tun is a wine cask)

Does it matter that the o in ton is pronounced like a u?

My dad can't hear the difference between ten and tin.

Re: Bag Beg Big Bog Bug

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:41 am UTC
by Bassoon
Pale, Pile, Pule, Pole, Pele, Pyle. I am winrar! (At least, according to Firefox Spell Check.)