Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Aiwendil » Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:27 pm UTC

It's definitely [kjʊəɹ] for me, though I also hear people say [kjɜɹ] frequently enough. 'Sure' and 'shore' are homophones for me; both are [ʃʊəɹ]; but I believe I've also heard people in my area pronounce 'sure' [ʃɜɹ] (and I don't think I've ever heard 'shore' pronounced that way). I'm from northern New Jersey.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:55 pm UTC

I hear both, but the easier [kjʌɹ] or [kjɜɹ] or [kjɪɹ] is definitely more common in Cleveland. "Sure" is pronounced [ʃʌɹ], [ʃɪɹ], or [ʃɜɹ], or occasionally [ʃuːər].

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:02 pm UTC

I will second [kjɝ].

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby O Choco » Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:23 am UTC

Aiwendil wrote:It's definitely [kjʊəɹ] for me, ... 'Sure' and 'shore' are homophones for me; both are [ʃʊəɹ].


Interesting, so you merge them in the other direction. I'm curious what your /ɔ/ phoneme is usually realized as? I remember when I worked for Allstate, where I often called New Jerseyites, that I would instantly be marked as calling from the other side of the country by my pronunciation, [ɑɫsteɪt] to their [ʊəɫsteɪt] (tangentially, how amazing is it that [ɑ] and [ʊə] can be realizations of the same phoneme?).

Eebster the Great wrote:[kjʌɹ] or [kjɜɹ]

Just curious, is this simply phonemic-vs-phonetic transcription, or do Ohioans actually pronounce the STRUT vowel as cardinal [ʌ]?
or [kjɪɹ] [ʃɪɹ]

With the vowel in KIT? Odd, I wonder if it's the yod that drives it up and forward. When I try to pronounce these, it just seems wrong somehow. Not saying you're wrong, mind, just that it's a novel realization to me.
occasionally [ʃuːər].

I forgot to mention, it seems I've undergone a phonemic split for CURE words. So while when I'm being speech conscious I might pronounce sure as above, that is my normal realization of the word "tour", which remains completely distinct from "tore" and never pronounced "turr" [tuːɚ, tɔɹ, tɝ]. Thus "tourist" is always a homophone of "two wrist".
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:32 pm UTC

Is CURE an acronym for something?
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:45 pm UTC

O Choco wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:[kjʌɹ] or [kjɜɹ]

Just curious, is this simply phonemic-vs-phonetic transcription, or do Ohioans actually pronounce the STRUT vowel as cardinal [ʌ]?

Most do not, but there are a range of pronunciations here. There are very large black, Latin, and eastern European communities in the city as well as the majority white Midwesterners. Anyway, I think those pronunciations I listed are pretty close. I'm no expert. It might be more fronted than ʌ, which is why I gave ɜ too. I have a hard time distinguishing between similar vowel sounds preceding an r. In any case, there is definitely some variation, which is why I gave both.

or [kjɪɹ] [ʃɪɹ]

With the vowel in KIT? Odd, I wonder if it's the yod that drives it up and forward. When I try to pronounce these, it just seems wrong somehow. Not saying you're wrong, mind, just that it's a novel realization to me.

I guess it's really a schwa, not an i. To me, the reduced vowels sound almost identical. In particular, what Wikipedia gives for /ər/ is what I would associate with /iɹ/. What I mean though is that I would pronounce "sure" the same way as "her," "were," "purr," or "myrrh."

occasionally [ʃuːər].

I forgot to mention, it seems I've undergone a phonemic split for CURE words. So while when I'm being speech conscious I might pronounce sure as above, that is my normal realization of the word "tour", which remains completely distinct from "tore" and never pronounced "turr" [tuːɚ, tɔɹ, tɝ]. Thus "tourist" is always a homophone of "two wrist".

For me, "tour" is effectively two syllables (['tu.ər]), like "fire," "hour," and similar words. I don't really understand how you can pronounce those two distinct vowel sounds in sequence in one syllable. By comparison, I have no trouble pronouncing "lore" as a single syllable (different then from "lower," which is two), but I can't pronounce "hire" any differently from "higher."

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:47 pm UTC

(...somewhat hesitant to post here, because I'm not sure I want to reveal where I live to the entire internet... I don't know that my pronunciation is similar to those around me, anyways...)
O Choco wrote:
or [kjɪɹ] [ʃɪɹ]

With the vowel in KIT? Odd, I wonder if it's the yod that drives it up and forward. When I try to pronounce these, it just seems wrong somehow. Not saying you're wrong, mind, just that it's a novel realization to me.
I pronounce cure and pure (but not sure) something like that, too, and yes, it is the /j/ that's causing it. I also pronounce /ju/ as something like [iʊ̯] after consonants. (At least sometimes; maybe I pronounce things differently when I'm paying attention.)
I forgot to mention, it seems I've undergone a phonemic split for CURE words. So while when I'm being speech conscious I might pronounce sure as above, that is my normal realization of the word "tour", which remains completely distinct from "tore" and never pronounced "turr" [tuːɚ, tɔɹ, tɝ]. Thus "tourist" is always a homophone of "two wrist".
Me too, except that for me tourist is three syllables.

Monika wrote:Is CURE an acronym for something?
No; that's one way of referring to the vowels in English (in this case, the vowel used in the word cure; this is used, e.g., here).
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:59 pm UTC

O Choco wrote:
occasionally [ʃuːər].

I forgot to mention, it seems I've undergone a phonemic split for CURE words. So while when I'm being speech conscious I might pronounce sure as above, that is my normal realization of the word "tour", which remains completely distinct from "tore" and never pronounced "turr" [tuːɚ, tɔɹ, tɝ]. Thus "tourist" is always a homophone of "two wrist".

I don't think this is a split, it's the lack (at least partially) of the pour-poor merger. Or maybe this is not-pour-poor merging combined with the pure-poor split?

I have both the pour-poor merger and the pure-poor split. So pure and sure are /-jər/, and poor, pour, and tour are all /-ɔr/. No words remain at /-ʊr/ or /-uər/ (though I'm familiar with the pronunciations, the bug me :p)

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:49 am UTC

chridd wrote:
Monika wrote:Is CURE an acronym for something?
No; that's one way of referring to the vowels in English (in this case, the vowel used in the word cure; this is used, e.g., here).

Oh, thanks.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby O Choco » Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:15 pm UTC

Derek wrote:I don't think this is a split, it's the lack (at least partially) of the pour-poor merger. Or maybe this is not-pour-poor merging combined with the pure-poor split?

I have both the pour-poor merger and the pure-poor split. So pure and sure are /-jər/, and poor, pour, and tour are all /-ɔr/. No words remain at /-ʊr/ or /-uər/


So now I'm reading the wikipedia article, and this caught my eye:

Wikipedia wrote:A similar split occurs in many varieties of North American English that causes /ʊr/ to disappear and split into /ɝ/ and /ɔr/, causing pure, cure, lure, sure to rhyme with fir, and poor, moor, Boor to rhyme with store and for. In many of these dialects, tour remains with /ʊr/, leading to a three-way split between tour /tʊr/ (although often sounding more like [tur]), pure /pjɝ/ and poor /pɔr/. In some others, tour changes to disyllabic [ˈtu.ɚ] or [ˈtu.ɪ̈ɹ].[citation needed]


With the exception of my lure rhyming with tour, this accurately describes my split. Also, I usually keep your distinct from you're, the former rhyming with shore, the latter with sure (as either [juːɚ~jɝ]).

chridd wrote:Me too, except that for me tourist is three syllables.


So [tuː.ɚ.ɪst]? Mine would be more like [tuːɹɪst]; intervocalic /ɚ/ doesn't like to hold up for me.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:50 pm UTC

So for you, "pure" and "purr" are homophones?

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby O Choco » Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:34 am UTC

No, but they're a minimal pair. Pure has a yod, [pjɝ]
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:58 am UTC

I see, that makes much more sense. That's how I pronounce it too.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Aiwendil » Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:10 pm UTC

O Choco wrote: I'm curious what your /ɔ/ phoneme is usually realized as? I remember when I worked for Allstate, where I often called New Jerseyites, that I would instantly be marked as calling from the other side of the country by my pronunciation, [ɑɫsteɪt] to their [ʊəɫsteɪt] (tangentially, how amazing is it that [ɑ] and [ʊə] can be realizations of the same phoneme?).


Do you have the cot-caught merger, then, or do you pronounce "cot" with a vowel other than [ɑ]?

I think my /ɔ/ is generally [ɒ] or perhaps halfway between [ɒ] and [ɔ]. There are definitely people around here for whom it's diphthongized to the more stereotypical New Jerseyite [ʊə], though. I would guess that the latter is more common in central New Jersey and among transplants from NYC, though.

Incidentally, one of the clearest markers of my local dialect is the distribution of /ɔ/ vs. /ɑ/. I have never quite been able to figure out why "dog" has /ɔ/ while "hog", "log", "frog", etc. have /ɑ/, but this pattern is consistent and persistent among speakers here. If someone objects when you rhyme "dog" with "log", it's a good bet they're from New Jersey.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby O Choco » Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:19 am UTC

Aiwendil wrote:.Do you have the cot-caught merger, then, or do you pronounce "cot" with a vowel other than [ɑ]?

Yeah I'm fully cot/caught merged in casual speech. Furthermore my cot vowel /ɑ/ is slightly fronted, compared to say RP /ɑ/, but I don't believe it's as front as the /a/ in, say, Spanish, or [ɐ]. I might round it after labials and especially /w/, and before /l/. When I'm in formal situations like talking to clients at work, I usually adopt some slight rounding in most caught words so it's more like [ɒ], maybe a little higher.
Aiwendil wrote:I think my /ɔ/ is generally [ɒ] or perhaps halfway between [ɒ] and [ɔ]. There are definitely people around here for whom it's diphthongized to the more stereotypical New Jerseyite [ʊə], though. I would guess that the latter is more common in central New Jersey and among transplants from NYC, though.

I'd definitely agree it's a major marker of an NYC 'lect. Also if I remember correctly New Jersey is frequently lumped in with NYC in the public consciousness but that it has its own unique dialect, though I don't know much about it. I mentioned earlier in this thread that I think people from the atlantic seaboard are particularly likely to tap their /r/ in the cluster /θr/ so three would be [θɾiː]. Is this just my selective memory?
Aiwendil wrote:Incidentally, one of the clearest markers of my local dialect is the distribution of /ɔ/ vs. /ɑ/. I have never quite been able to figure out why "dog" has /ɔ/ while "hog", "log", "frog", etc. have /ɑ/, but this pattern is consistent and persistent among speakers here. If someone objects when you rhyme "dog" with "log", it's a good bet they're from New Jersey.


The best guess I would wager is that dog being a word we often learn before reading it is more likely to be subject to the Lot-Cloth split, whereas other terms might be first encountered in text and thus likely to receive a spelling pronunciation from the "long-O" as /ɑ/.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby gilan » Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:48 pm UTC

I'm Canadian. After six years of marriage, my American wife and I are still discovering words that we pronounce differently from each other. Last week it was "shone".

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:53 am UTC

I wonder how you two say it.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:56 pm UTC

O Choco wrote:[With the exception of my lure rhyming with tour, this accurately describes my split.
Same here. I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that "lure" and "tour" both lack the yod.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby gilan » Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:16 pm UTC

I (the Canadian) pronounce "shone" to rhyme with "pawn" and "con". My wife (the American) pronounces "shone" to rhyme with "own" and "loan".

Monika wrote:I wonder how you two say it.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:57 pm UTC

So your pronunciation is like the British one (although in their case it only rhymes with "con", not with "pawn").
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby gilan » Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:05 pm UTC

Yes. We had one Norwegian and two British friends over yesterday, and they all pronounced it like I do.

Lazar wrote:So your pronunciation is like the British one (although in their case it only rhymes with "con", not with "pawn").
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Caprice » Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:43 pm UTC

Thought I'd throw my hat into the ring. I've always lived in Illinois, for the record.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby joshymaw » Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:09 pm UTC

(Look up "cold cock" on Wiktionary. The spam filter won't let me post the link.)

Always assumed this was spelled "co-cock" growing up. On finding the spelling of it, still can't believe the phrase exists.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:23 pm UTC

Never heard the term "coldcock" before. Is that something people use often?

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:50 pm UTC

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:50 pm UTC

I've noticed that here in Massachusetts, there seems to be a preference for /ʌ/ in certain words. Now, North American English in general tends to have the from-rum merger (as I've seen it called), in which stressed "from", "what", "was", "of", "because" and "-body" pronouns use /ʌ/ rather than reflexes of historical /ɒ/. But one variation that I've only heard from Massachusetts folk – and which I've never seen mentioned in any text – is /gʌt/ for "got". I used to have this myself, but eventually dropped it when I began playing with my accent. I believe Penn Gillette uses it.

Another one, which I have seen mentioned but which I've never used myself, is /hʌt/ for "hot", especially in "hot dog". And one further example is /pʌt/ for "put" – which, oddly, I've only ever heard from my cousins who grew up in Bristol County.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:06 pm UTC

You'll also hear /gɪt/.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:11 pm UTC

You mean for "get"? That's common, yeah, but most of the country seems united around /ɑ/~/ɒ/ for "got".

Edit: Yep, here's an example of Penn Jillette using /gʌt/. This has been a case where it almost felt like I was taking crazy pills, because I've never been able to find any attestation of it in any description of New England speech. But it's real!
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:43 am UTC

I've never noticed /gʌt/ for "got" or /hʌt/ for "hot". I have noticed /pʌt/ for "put" though.

Lazar wrote:This has been a case where it almost felt like I was taking crazy pills, because I've never been able to find any attestation of it in any description of New England speech. But it's real!

My "crazy pills" thing is /tr/ -> [tʃr] (or something close to it), as in "trash". I've never seen it mentioned, but as far as I can tell it's nearly universal in at least American English.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:35 am UTC

Derek wrote:My "crazy pills" thing is /tr/ -> [tʃr] (or something close to it), as in "trash". I've never seen it mentioned, but as far as I can tell it's nearly universal in at least American English.
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My own oddity: I don't think I distinguish /θ/ and /ð/ (voiced and unvoiced th) at the beginnings of syllables, but do distinguish them at the ends of syllables. And I think I usually pronounce those sounds as dental affricates (/tθ/, /dð/), rather than dental fricatives.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:25 am UTC

Yeah, the shift from /tɹ/, /dɹ/ to /tʃɹ/, /dʒɹ/ in much of American English is pretty widely remarked upon. But as chridd notes, it's not universal – I don't do it either.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:56 am UTC

Lazar wrote:But one variation that I've only heard from Massachusetts folk – and which I've never seen mentioned in any text – is /gʌt/ for "got". I used to have this myself, but eventually dropped it when I began playing with my accent. I believe Penn Gillette uses it.

Another one, which I have seen mentioned but which I've never used myself, is /hʌt/ for "hot", especially in "hot dog". And one further example is /pʌt/ for "put" – which, oddly, I've only ever heard from my cousins who grew up in Bristol County.


There's also "want" which can be pronounced as /wʌnt/ by some Americans. This one, unlike those mention above, is apparently common enough that it gets a mention a merriam-websters dictionary.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby eSOANEM » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:15 am UTC

Derek wrote:
Lazar wrote:This has been a case where it almost felt like I was taking crazy pills, because I've never been able to find any attestation of it in any description of New England speech. But it's real!

My "crazy pills" thing is /tr/ -> [tʃr] (or something close to it), as in "trash". I've never seen it mentioned, but as far as I can tell it's nearly universal in at least American English.


This is pretty common across the pond (RP) too. My name begins with "tr" and I regularly hear it with a [tʃr] (and I sometimes pronounce it as such when speaking quickly).
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Lazar
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:23 am UTC

Here's some more evidence for "gut" in New England, from the International Dialects of English Archive. (I'm posting this partly for future reference.)

Massachusetts 2 at 1:11
Massachusetts 6 at 0:43 and 3:50
Massachusetts 8 at 0:50, 4:12 and 4:28

New Hampshire 2 at 4:22
New Hampshire 3 at 0:28, 2:05 and 3:17

Rhode Island 1 at 0:54

Vermont 1 at 0:53

Stephen King also mentions it in one of his novels.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:14 am UTC

How do you pronounce "jewelry"? I've heard it pronounced as /dʒɹ̩i/. Lots of times when I'm at Walmart and someone is needed in the jewelry section they will get on the intercom and make the announcement "customer needs assistance in jury". It sounds so funny.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:39 am UTC

I say [ˈdʒuːɫɹi], "jool-ree". Maybe the speakers that you're hearing have l-vocalization?
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Aiwendil » Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:37 pm UTC

Does anyone have any data (anecdotal or otherwise) as to the geographic distribution of "at the weekend" vs. "on the weekend"?

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:47 pm UTC

I say "on the weekend", and am only familiar with that one within American usage. Google's Ngram Viewer shows a strong advantage for "on the weekend" in AmEng and for "at the weekend" in BrEng.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Aiwendil » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:00 am UTC

Hmm, maybe it is that simple. I heard a Canadian say "at the weekend" recently, which surprised me, but consultation with a few other Canadians suggests that this is atypical there.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:20 am UTC

With a lot of dialect differences, it seems like Canadians can't decide whether their English is more like British or American (sometimes from one spelling of "colo(u)r" to the next).
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