Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

For the discussion of language mechanics, grammar, vocabulary, trends, and other such linguistic topics, in english and other languages.

Moderators: gmalivuk, Moderators General, Prelates

Derek
Posts: 2181
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:15 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:57 pm UTC

fənɑlədʒɪst wrote:Maybe I should make a topic about Praat and how to use it? Would anyone be interested? I don't know everything, but I had to use it extensively for my research project- phonetic case study of two Japanese speakers. Charting vowels and making spectrogram charts with textgrids and such is becoming a daily chore for me heh.

That'ld be great. I'm curious what my precise vowel realizations are.

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:11 pm UTC

Lazar wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:
Monika wrote:
Derek wrote:This reminds me of another thing though. It seems to me that I invariably pronounce [tr] (as in "true") as [t͡ʃr], and I think this is common if not standard, but I can't say I pay very close attention. What have others experienced?

Wait, you're saying you pronounce true as tshrue? I have never heard such a thing.

In my experience it's more like "tchrue." The sound is similar to saying "match" immediately followed by "rue."

I say either [t͡ʃr] or [tr] interchangeably.

In American English it's common, but not universal, to affricate /tr/ and /dr/ into [tʃɹ] and [dʒɹ]. In my idiolect there's a rather distinct lack of affrication in those sequences; I pronounce them as [t(ʰ)ɹ] and [dɹ] without much transitional articulation between the plosive and the liquid.


My phonology textbook uses the [t͡sr] regularly in narrow transcriptions of the author's speech, but I can't imagine saying either that or [t͡ʃr]. I'm much closer to Lazar.


fənɑlədʒɪst wrote:
Derek wrote:This Praat thing sounds interesting. I can at best only guess at my precise pronunciations. I downloaded it, but I can't really figure out how it works.

In my introductory linguistics class when we were going over IPA a lot of the class objected to the professor's representation of <sing> as [sɪŋg] over [siŋg].

Well dictionaries have to give some kind of pronunciation guide, and they don't want to list every possible dialectal pronunciation.

This reminds me of another thing though. It seems to me that I invariably pronounce [tr] (as in "true") as [t͡ʃr], and I think this is common if not standard, but I can't say I pay very close attention. What have others experienced?

Same. I don't think I've ever heard un-tensed [æ] before [ŋ]. BTW, how does that pronunciation of "bang" compare to your normal long a, like in "bane"?

Here is a completely new one: I read some time ago about Ng-coalescence on Wikipedia. It specifically mentions "singer" and "finger" not rhyming (at least not exactly) in most dialects, the former being [sɪŋər] and the latter [fɪŋgər]. This surprised me. As far as I can tell, I pronounce "singer" and "finger" differ only in the initial consonant in my accent, but I honestly couldn't tell you whether it is [ɪŋər] or [ɪŋgər].


I've never heard anyone pronounce <sing> as anything but [si. A velar stop at the end sounds like a spelling pronunciation or something to me.

Oh wow. I didn't even know that <singer> and <finger> could rhyme in some dialects. For me, they're very distinctly [siŋ.ɚ] and [fiŋ.gɚ].


I think I say word final /ng/ invariably as [ŋ]. I'd like say I pronounce <ing> as [iŋ], I've certainly always thought of it as [i]. But it's hard to tell these things without equipment.

fənɑlədʒɪst wrote:Maybe I should make a topic about Praat and how to use it? Would anyone be interested? I don't know everything, but I had to use it extensively for my research project- phonetic case study of two Japanese speakers. Charting vowels and making spectrogram charts with textgrids and such is becoming a daily chore for me heh.


I was actually thinking about asking you or one of my profs about this. I have no experience with programs like Praat and thus don't know how to translate the information into segmental information.

User avatar
Velifer
Posts: 1132
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:05 pm UTC
Location: 40ºN, 83ºW

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Velifer » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:21 pm UTC

fənɑlədʒɪst wrote:
Velifer wrote:My relatives ring a /beɪl/ and feed a /bɛl/ to the horse. *shrug*.

The IPA they used actually suggests that they ring a "bale" and feed a "bell" to the horse. Interesting idiolects, that person's family has... I wonder how that came about.

That's a very common dialect, and how it came about is an open question. Aside from quite a few pronunciations that are very close to completely different words (for example, "Fire" and "borrow" spoken by some Appalachians can sound like "far" and "bury" in Standard American English) there are also a host of idioms that don't always come out of the hills very cleanly. If you're not a speaker--I'm very deliberately not, but I grew up surrounded by people who were and I do sometimes slide into it--it's very hard to understand Appalachian. I can understand my mom's relatives, but my dad couldn't always tell what the in-laws were talking about.
Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies have nothing to lose but their chains -Marx

fənɑlədʒɪst
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:14 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby fənɑlədʒɪst » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:56 pm UTC

Oh, I had no idea he/she was talking about Appalachian English. I'm not very familiar with the phonological stuffins going on in in Appalachian.

cntrational
This guy's name is a utter lie.
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:36 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby cntrational » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:43 am UTC

Apparently, some US dialects say "warsh" and "idear", and this is attributed to hypercorrections that lived on. Can anybody confirm this explanation?

User avatar
Velifer
Posts: 1132
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:05 pm UTC
Location: 40ºN, 83ºW

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Velifer » Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:38 pm UTC

CntRational wrote:Apparently, some US dialects say "warsh" and "idear", and this is attributed to hypercorrections that lived on. Can anybody confirm this explanation?

Confirm... hmm...

Research Requirements:
One time machine.
Seventeen linguists.
Tape recorders, pencils, computers, databases, and software
One deathmatch cage
Assorted weapons
Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies have nothing to lose but their chains -Marx

Aiwendil42
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 8:52 pm UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Aiwendil42 » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:41 pm UTC

Apparently, some US dialects say "warsh" and "idear", and this is attributed to hypercorrections that lived on. Can anybody confirm this explanation?


Yes, I've heard both of these cases of intrusive 'r' - though never from the same speaker. 'Warsh' is how my relatives in western Pennsylvania pronounce 'wash'. 'Idear' I have only heard, as far as I can remember, from speakers in the New York area, and I always assumed it derives from a hyper-correction on the part of natively non-rhotic speakers.

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3460
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:40 pm UTC

I had a grandmother who would warsh and dry her clothes then put them back in the draw.

Derek
Posts: 2181
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:15 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:39 pm UTC

My dad occasionally has intrusive r in words like "idea". I think its a hold over from non-rhotic Southern accents (note though that his accent is not non-rhotic).

User avatar
nehpest
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:25 pm UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby nehpest » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:10 pm UTC

Aiwendil42 wrote:
Apparently, some US dialects say "warsh" and "idear", and this is attributed to hypercorrections that lived on. Can anybody confirm this explanation?


Yes, I've heard both of these cases of intrusive 'r' - though never from the same speaker. 'Warsh' is how my relatives in western Pennsylvania pronounce 'wash'. 'Idear' I have only heard, as far as I can remember, from speakers in the New York area, and I always assumed it derives from a hyper-correction on the part of natively non-rhotic speakers.


One of my central Pennsylvania relatives pronounce it "warsh". No one else in the family pronounces it that way; we all thought she picked it up in her childhood in Appalachia, or her young-adult-hood in central California (the Fresno area). Can anyone from those areas comment?
Kewangji wrote:Someone told me I need to stop being so arrogant. Like I'd care about their plebeian opinions.

blag

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Iulus Cofield » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:41 pm UTC

Where is the place of articulation for y'all's non-velar /l/'s?

Mine is dental. I've been asking around/tricking people into being linguistic guinea pigs and I'm finding a fair number of people who also say it dentally rather than alveolarly.

fənɑlədʒɪst
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:14 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby fənɑlədʒɪst » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:11 am UTC

My clear /l/ is always realized as an alveolar or a dental, but I've never noticed an interdental allophone.

cntrational
This guy's name is a utter lie.
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:36 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby cntrational » Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:32 am UTC

fənɑlədʒɪst wrote:My clear /l/ is always realized as an alveolar or a dental, but I've never noticed an interdental allophone.


http://phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/2010/ ... bials.html

User avatar
Velifer
Posts: 1132
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:05 pm UTC
Location: 40ºN, 83ºW

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Velifer » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:07 pm UTC

nehpest wrote:One of my central Pennsylvania relatives pronounce it "warsh". No one else in the family pronounces it that way; we all thought she picked it up in her childhood in Appalachia, or her young-adult-hood in central California (the Fresno area). Can anyone from those areas comment?


It's present in Appalachian. It also appears in the Upper Ohio Valley areas of the Lower North dialect, often in isolation ("warsh" is sometimes the only rhotic weirdness in someone's speech). [Note: This is from my direct anecdotal experience, and may reflect massive recall bias]
Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies have nothing to lose but their chains -Marx

Derek
Posts: 2181
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:15 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:39 pm UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:Where is the place of articulation for y'all's non-velar /l/'s?

Mine is dental. I've been asking around/tricking people into being linguistic guinea pigs and I'm finding a fair number of people who also say it dentally rather than alveolarly.

I believe all my l's are the same, but they're also completely fucked up. The tip of my tongue is actually completely down when I'm making an l. Its not vocalized, but I don't quite know what it is. Interestingly, when I'm singing it is a normal alveolar l when followed by a vowel without me even thinking about it.

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Iulus Cofield » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:29 pm UTC

Is it velar? My velar /l/ has the back of my tongue touching the very bottom of the velum, which is hardly noticeable if it precedes a vowel.
And you really don't use an alveolar/dental /l/ outside of singing?

Derek
Posts: 2181
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:15 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:05 pm UTC

Might be velar, but its not a normal dark l (from my understanding, a dark l still has the tip of the tongue touching the roof of the mouth). And yeah, its kind of weird, I don't know why I would have learned to sing with a different articulation than talking (and btw I'm not a singer or anything, in fact I'm quite bad, I just sing to myself a lot).

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Iulus Cofield » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:34 pm UTC

I kind of detest using terms like light and dark L, since I think they are archaic and muddled terms that continue muddled understandings of linguistics.

What I would call my dark L, if I were forced to use the term, is a velar /l/ that doesn't have any simultaneous places of articulation.

posentin
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:03 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby posentin » Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:35 pm UTC

Derek wrote:
fənɑlədʒɪst wrote:Huh. I've never met anyone who doesn't have æ-tensing before [ŋ]. I bet if I heard you say <bang>, I'd freak out. So I just ran Praat analysis on me saying <bang> ten times and averaged the results, and it appears that I'm currently saying something more akin to [b͡ɛeŋ] than [b͡eɪŋ].

Same. I don't think I've ever heard un-tensed [æ] before [ŋ]. BTW, how does that pronunciation of "bang" compare to your normal long a, like in "bane"?


For tensing of [æ] before [ŋ], my cases of <bang> <rang> and <bank> end up closer to [eə], similar to my tensing before [n] and [m], but <hang> and <thank> are near [eɪ]. <tank> seems to take either, or even [æ] on occasion.

Oddly, I currently know someone who has minimal [æ] tensing before [ŋ], only his <thank> and <hang> are consistently raised, usually near [eɪ].
Also, he and many of his friends, say "tour" as [tɔʊɹ], which is uncommon in coastal california, but deep inland california seems to retain some midwestern/southern features, most notably the pin/pen merger in inland areas like sacramento and bakersfield.

Derek wrote:
fənɑlədʒɪst wrote:
Derek wrote:This Praat thing sounds interesting. I can at best only guess at my precise pronunciations. I downloaded it, but I can't really figure out how it works.


Maybe I should make a topic about Praat and how to use it? Would anyone be interested? I don't know everything, but I had to use it extensively for my research project- phonetic case study of two Japanese speakers. Charting vowels and making spectrogram charts with textgrids and such is becoming a daily chore for me heh.


That'ld be great. I'm curious what my precise vowel realizations are.


+1 to a how to Praat thread

fənɑlədʒɪst
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:14 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby fənɑlədʒɪst » Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:20 am UTC

I've actually started that Praat "How to" thread, but I haven't had a change to do anything with it other than put up some info on how to read and write audio files. I'll see if I can find some time later today to do something where you actually look at the spectrograms.

User avatar
Lazar
Landed Gentry
Posts: 2151
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:49 pm UTC
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:48 am UTC

Relevant to this thread: I just wrote a rather lengthy post on the language forum UniLang, outlining the ways in which I've changed my idiolect. Y'all should give it at least a skim.
Exit the vampires' castle.

User avatar
Monika
Welcoming Aarvark
Posts: 3672
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:03 am UTC
Location: Germany, near Heidelberg
Contact:

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:19 pm UTC

Interesting.

I wish I found a way to change my pronunciation to Standard American English ... or even not so standard American English, just less German-accented.
#xkcd-q on irc.foonetic.net - the LGBTIQQA support channel
Please donate to help these people

User avatar
Velifer
Posts: 1132
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:05 pm UTC
Location: 40ºN, 83ºW

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Velifer » Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:53 pm UTC

Monika wrote:just less German-accented.

Stop hanging out with all those Germans.

There are voice coaches for actors that specialize in training people to use different dialects for specific parts.

Keep in mind that in America, there is absolutely no benefit to speaking SAE. Our national news talents often speak with a Great Lakes accent specific to Northeast Ohio. Just about any accent from the UK will go far in getting you laid here. Also, sounding like an American while not in America can be bad for your health.
Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies have nothing to lose but their chains -Marx

User avatar
Monika
Welcoming Aarvark
Posts: 3672
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:03 am UTC
Location: Germany, near Heidelberg
Contact:

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:48 pm UTC

Velifer wrote:
Monika wrote:just less German-accented.

Stop hanging out with all those Germans.

You mean like, go live in the US for a year? Been there, done that, got a couple of really nice T-shirts :D , but did not get rid of my accent :cry: . Well, at least it improved my listening comprehension by 1000% (approximately).

There are voice coaches for actors that specialize in training people to use different dialects for specific parts.

Probably very expensive.

Keep in mind that in America, there is absolutely no benefit to speaking SAE. Our national news talents often speak with a Great Lakes accent specific to Northeast Ohio. Just about any accent from the UK will go far in getting you laid here.

Yeah as I said, not-so-standard American English would be fine, too. Or British or whatever. Just something that doesn't make people go "Wait, was that English?"

Also, sounding like an American while not in America can be bad for your health.

I have no intention to visit Iraq or Afghanistan any time soon.
#xkcd-q on irc.foonetic.net - the LGBTIQQA support channel
Please donate to help these people

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3460
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:25 pm UTC

Velifer wrote:Our national news talents often speak with a Great Lakes accent specific to Northeast Ohio.

Some do, but an even greater number speak with accents common throughout the US, and especially common in the central US. Apparently a Nebraska accent (whatever that is) is very desired.

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Iulus Cofield » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:09 am UTC

One radio host in Portland, OR said she came to Oregon to learn how speak a more neutral accent, since the PNW dialect only varies from GA in a few ways.

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Iulus Cofield » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:36 am UTC

Today I was told today that I lengthen my intervocalic /r/s in some way. I can't tell if I'm geminating them or if I'm rhotacizing the preceding vowel or something else. I might try to figure it out in Praat later.

User avatar
nightbird
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:40 am UTC
Location: Berlin, GE

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby nightbird » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:13 pm UTC

Velifer wrote:Just about any accent from the UK will go far in getting you laid here.


If one more person says so, I'll be tempted to come over and give it a try ;)
“Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know, that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom.”

User avatar
Monika
Welcoming Aarvark
Posts: 3672
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:03 am UTC
Location: Germany, near Heidelberg
Contact:

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:31 pm UTC

Let's see what graphjam has to say about this:
Image
#xkcd-q on irc.foonetic.net - the LGBTIQQA support channel
Please donate to help these people

posentin
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:03 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby posentin » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:06 am UTC

that should say what "north american" girls look for haha

Derek
Posts: 2181
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:15 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:33 am UTC

I was surprised to find out today that /mʌnstɚ/ (my pronunciation) was not listed as an alternate pronunciation of /mɑːnstɚ/. Does anyone else use this pronunciation, or heard it used? Is it just me?

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3460
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:39 am UTC

Derek wrote:I was surprised to find out today that /mʌnstɚ/ (my pronunciation) was not listed as an alternate pronunciation of /mɑːnstɚ/. Does anyone else use this pronunciation, or heard it used? Is it just me?

You mean for "monster?" Strange, I've never heard that pronunciation before.

User avatar
Monika
Welcoming Aarvark
Posts: 3672
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:03 am UTC
Location: Germany, near Heidelberg
Contact:

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:06 pm UTC

I always thought it's /mʌnstɚ/ ... but I am not a native speaker.
#xkcd-q on irc.foonetic.net - the LGBTIQQA support channel
Please donate to help these people

User avatar
eSOANEM
:D
Posts: 3652
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:39 pm UTC
Location: Grantabrycge

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby eSOANEM » Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:00 pm UTC

Derek wrote:I was surprised to find out today that /mʌnstɚ/ (my pronunciation) was not listed as an alternate pronunciation of /mɑːnstɚ/. Does anyone else use this pronunciation, or heard it used? Is it just me?


As a brit, both sound plausibly American to me although I tend to pronounce it /ˈmɒnstə/ myself. That said, wiktionary at least (and possibly whatever dictionary you're using) is only giving a phonemic transcription and, if indeed you do mean monster, both "ʌ" and "ɑː" correlate to a "ɒ" in British English rather than the "ɐ" that "ʌ" often correlates to so the two may be assumed to be allophonic variations and hence not listed as an alternative pronunciation.
my pronouns are they

Magnanimous wrote:(fuck the macrons)

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3460
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:32 pm UTC

As an American, I have heard /mɒnstɚ/ and very rarely /mɑːnstɚ/ (as in the sound clip on wiktionary), but never /mʌnstɚ/. /mʌnstɚ/ is how I would pronounce muenster cheese.

User avatar
O Choco
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:19 am UTC
Location: Untersee
Contact:

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby O Choco » Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:29 am UTC

Aiwendil42 wrote:That's interesting - I have æ-tensing as well, but it only affects æ before n or m (where it becomes [eə]). Before [ŋ] it remains [æ]. I do know speakers for whom tensing occurs before [ŋ] as well, but as far as I can tell, for them it becomes [eə] in this case also, with no [i] in sight. Although it's possible that I just haven't listened closely enough, and it does in fact become [ei] for them.

Born and raised Coloradan here, with a fairly middle-of-the-road "Western" dialect, including cot/caught merger.

For a long time I managed to convince myself I had no raising of /æ/ in my speech; but in fact I do raise it to [ɛ] before /ŋ/ (and ONLY before /ŋ/, so [θɛŋks] for thanks but [tænd] for tanned).
Iulus Cofield wrote:Where is the place of articulation for y'all's non-velar /l/'s?

Mine is dental. I've been asking around/tricking people into being linguistic guinea pigs and I'm finding a fair number of people who also say it dentally rather than alveolarly.

I produce it right where my teeth protrude from my gums, directly between my incisors. With the exception of when it follows /k g/, where it's fully velar [ʟ] ala [kʟiɚ].

My maternal grandmother is from Minnesota and she warshes her clothes.

as for [mʌnstɚ] for monster, I've never heard that pronunciation from . . . anyone. Only for the city, Munster.

I thought for a long time that I had no canadian raising in my speech, either; it turns out I do have raising of /aj/ before voiceless consonants. I've known that writer and rider are distinct but I've always chocked that up to a difference of vowel length, not quality; sure enough though, the nucleus of the vowel in writer is closer to [ʌ].

I've noticed some interesting features that seem to be emerging here in Colorado. For one, Canadian raising seems to be spreading among younger speakers, but only in /aj/. Additionally, some speakers (like many in my family) produce the short a of bag as [ej], so that it becomes a homophone of beg. (Speaking of which, do the rest of you pronounce beg as a mono- or diphthong?). They seem unable to hear the difference. When I pointed it out to my mother, she couldn't produce the "traditional" [bæg] at all. She was able to approximate it as [bæjg], though. Isn't perception weird?

My godmother, originally from North Dakota, also has this change before the velar nasal so that rang is [ɹejŋ]. She has full canadian raising of /aj/ and /aw/, she was talking to me just a few days ago about her "nice new house" [nʌjs nu hʌʊs].

re: diphthongization of /ʊ/. This is one of the things that intrigued me most when I first began learning about phonetics, is that I never seemed to produce this as a monophthong but I've also never met anyone who produces it noticeably different than I. [ʊɪ] is fairly consistent with how I seem to pronounce it, but without the aid of praat I can't be sure.

How do y'all pronounce the /r/ in three? I would think the approximant [ɹ] would be standard, it's universal in my speech, but I work on the phone and hear a realization of [θɾi:] on a nearly daily basis; this seems to be more common among east-coasters (and especially among New Jerseyites). This seems to only ever happen in the cluster /θr/.

Also, reading through the thread, someone mentioned pre-nasalization of "bye" to something like [mbaj], I do this all the time and I notice a lot of others do as well, both on the phone and face-to-face. I also sometimes prenasalize other stops, usually in the context where I would say "uh", as in when trying to take a moment to formulate a response. "When is my appointment" "nnnntuesday."
http://prosepage.com
MODEST MOUSE wrote:Oh, and we carried it all so well
As if we got a new position
Oh, and we owned all the tools ourselves
But not the skills to make a shelf with
Oh, what useless tools ourselves.

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3460
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:28 pm UTC

O Choco wrote:(Speaking of which, do the rest of you pronounce beg as a mono- or diphthong?).

As a monophthong. Just a simple short e. [bɛg]. Just like I would pronounce "bed." Similarly, I would pronounce "bag" [bag]. It sounds like you pronounce both as [bæg] or [bæjg]? That's roughly how I would pronounce the first syllable of "bagel."

How do y'all pronounce the /r/ in three? I would think the approximant [ɹ] would be standard, it's universal in my speech, but I work on the phone and hear a realization of [θɾi:] on a nearly daily basis; this seems to be more common among east-coasters (and especially among New Jerseyites). This seems to only ever happen in the cluster /θr/.

I didn't realize there was any variation there. You're saying people from New Jersey roll their ars in "three"? I've known maybe half a dozen people from Jersey and dozens more from New England and have spent some time in Boston and have never heard anything like that.

User avatar
Carlington
Posts: 1588
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:46 am UTC
Location: Sydney, Australia.

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Carlington » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:36 pm UTC

Eebster, where are you from, if you don't mind me asking? I've never met anybody who would use [a] in "bag" before, is all.
Kewangji: Posdy zwei tosdy osdy oady. Bork bork bork, hoppity syphilis bork.

Eebster the Great: What specifically is moving faster than light in these examples?
doogly: Hands waving furiously.

Please use he/him/his pronouns when referring to me.

User avatar
O Choco
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:19 am UTC
Location: Untersee
Contact:

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby O Choco » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:30 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:As a monophthong. Just a simple short e. [bɛg]. Just like I would pronounce "bed." Similarly, I would pronounce "bag" [bag]. It sounds like you pronounce both as [bæg] or [bæjg]? That's roughly how I would pronounce the first syllable of "bagel."

I produce simple [bæg] for bag and [bejg] for beg. My mother had them as homophones [bejg]. When trying to emulate my pronunciation the closest she could come was [bæjg].
I didn't realize there was any variation there. You're saying people from New Jersey roll their ars in "three"? I've known maybe half a dozen people from Jersey and dozens more from New England and have spent some time in Boston and have never heard anything like that.

Tapped, the sound in Spanish caro orthe t in GA better. Not trilled.
http://prosepage.com
MODEST MOUSE wrote:Oh, and we carried it all so well
As if we got a new position
Oh, and we owned all the tools ourselves
But not the skills to make a shelf with
Oh, what useless tools ourselves.

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3460
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:13 pm UTC

I think I was misreading the IPA. I would pronounce it [bæg] as in "bad", unless I'm still reading it wrong. I was interpreting æ like eɪ, having "bag" rhyme with "vague," which would be weird.

I was confused because you asked if "beg" was pronounced as a monophthong or diphthong, and I was applying that to "bag".

Oh, and I'm from Northeast Ohio.


Return to “Language/Linguistics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests