Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby O Choco » Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:21 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:I think I was misreading the IPA. I would pronounce it [bæg] as in "bad", unless I'm still reading it wrong. I was interpreting æ like eɪ, having "bag" rhyme with "vague," which would be weird.


Nope! that is absolutely correct. That's how most of my family pronounces it. When trying to produce it with the short a of bad, my mother could lower the first component but could not drop the glide from her speech. Bag rhyming with vague is standard in many northern plains states, my family from the Dakotas and Minnesota all do it. Beg has this same diphthong, as does egg, so for the speakers all three rhyme. I only have it in beg/egg, not bag, which indeed has the same vowel as bad for me.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:33 pm UTC

I have a friend from Minnesota who pronounces -eg and -ag more similarly than those vowels followed by other consonants, but they're still distinct. I would approximate it as [-eɪjg] and [-æjg] (as opposed to, say, [-ɛd] and [-æd] for -ed and -ad), but really it's all somewhere in the middle.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:37 pm UTC

Yeah, "bag", "lag", and "vague" are pretty nearly rhymes for me as well. What should be a short A in the first pair moves a bit toward the vowel in "bake" and "lake", while the vowel in "vague" moves a bit away from that long vowel to meet the others in the middle.

(I say "should be" not because I think my dialect is wrong, but because when I'm pronouncing the words carefully, as I do when teaching, then "bag" goes back to being a minimal pair with "bad".)
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:43 pm UTC

I've heard egg as [ɛɪg], I believe that occurs even among people who pronounce beg as [bɛg].

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby O Choco » Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:37 am UTC

I am curious if anyone else produces the /r/ in the sequence /θr/ as [ɾ]. I know I hear this nearly every day but I don't have much of a concept of where it's more common than not, besides being more common in the eastern US from my own observation.

One interesting aspect of my own speech is the stopping of /z/ before /n/ so that isn't becomes [ɪdn(ʔ)]. In rapid speech the glottal stop at the end disappears. I'm almost certain this is a relic of my time spent in the american south where such realizations are fairly common in informal situations. Hasn't is always [hæzn(ʔ)] to remain distinct from hadn't.

Reading through the thread I noticed that people have spoken about intrusive /l/. My father has this although he seems to have this in many of the same scenarios where intrusive r would occur. So through it would be something like [θɹuɫɪʔ]. he has a few oddities in his speech though. He produces water as "wooder" [wʊɾɚ], and fronts /θ/ to [f] word-finally as in month [mɜɱf]. He also exhibits limited pin-pen merger producing both as [pɪn] in rapid speech but is easily able to differentiate between them in careful articulation.

edit: on the note of the pronunciation of [bæg] vs [bejg], the lead singer of modest mouse, Isaac Brock, pronounces magazine as [mejgəzi:n] in the song "Fire it Up". Can anyone from the Seattle area verify if this is a common pronunciation there?

edit2:
How do y'all pronounce the word "catch"? [kætʃ] or [kɛtʃ]? I found that I almost always pronounce it as the latter except when speaking extremely carefully.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:23 am UTC

I just noticed that I pronounce "minute" as /mai'nju:t/, even though I typically have yod-dropping in words like "new" /nu:/.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:48 pm UTC

Wait, minute doesn't start with /mai/
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:11 pm UTC

Monika wrote:Wait, minute doesn't start with /mai/
As an adjective meaning "small", it does start with /mai/. As a unit of time it doesn't.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:20 pm UTC

Yes, I mean the adjective of course.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:02 am UTC

Monika wrote:Wait, minute doesn't start with /mai/
Yeah, it took me a bit to figure out it's the adjective rather than the noun.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby PM 2Ring » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:33 am UTC

My newt is smaller than my axolotl.

Sorry. :)

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:19 pm UTC

chridd wrote:
Monika wrote:Wait, minute doesn't start with /mai/
As an adjective meaning "small", it does start with /mai/. As a unit of time it doesn't.

Oh, I had no idea. I always pronounced it the same as the noun and verb and nobody ever said anything against it. Okay, I don't really use minute as an adjective a lot.

Suddenly the comment about yod-dropping makes a lot more sense :D
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:25 am UTC

So you would say "I'll be there in one my newt"?

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:40 pm UTC

No, the other way around.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:31 am UTC

Monika wrote:No, the other way around.

So you would say that bacteria are minnit organisms?

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:23 pm UTC

Yes.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Erezen » Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:46 am UTC

I generally elide /ts/ into /s/, but only if it occurs in a contraction. So I say "it's" as "iss," but "its" the way iss spelled. It's common where I come from, actually. Also, I have a tendency to turn /il/ sounds into /el/ ones in certain words; "melk," "pellow," "keller," "bellow" (as in "the smoke bellowed from the chimneystack.") In Indianapolis, where I grew up, there's a law firm called "Keller & Keller," which has a rather aggressive advertising campaign. Since we pronounce this identically to "killer," you can imagine the jokes.

The other major thing is the fact that, if a word begins with an unstressted syllable that starts with an H, we generally drop it if an article precedes it. If it stands on its own, it's pronounced. So "an 'istoric occasion" but "these are important, historic events."

Grammar-wise, positive anymore. A lot.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:38 pm UTC

Erezen wrote:Grammar-wise, positive anymore. A lot.

What does that mean?
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby somehow » Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:20 pm UTC

It's standard to use "any more"/"anymore" to denote a negative statement (e.g., "He doesn't come here anymore."). It is also common in some dialects to use it in a positive sense (e.g., "He does come here anymore.", spoken with the same meaning that another speaker might express by "He does still come here.")
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Erezen » Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:35 pm UTC

It's also used to mean "nowadays," as in "It's hard to get a job around here anymore," or "from now on," as in, "You have to be more careful with knives anymore, kid."

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby O Choco » Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:14 am UTC

Erezen wrote:It's also used to mean "nowadays," as in "It's hard to get a job around here anymore," or "from now on," as in, "You have to be more careful with knives anymore, kid."

I don't know about the second example, but I feel like the usage of anymore as a synonym of nowadays is very common, among rural speakers and younger speakers in general (from my experience). I certainly use it myself on occasion. What do y'all think about using "times" as a verb (e.g. if you times three and four you get twelve)? I've noticed it's really common among younger speakers the farther west you go(in the U.S.). Personally I find it very striking, but I've never corrected anyone for it or heard them corrected.

edit: one of my best friends who is originally from and is living now in California uses it this way to the point that I don't think I've ever heard him use the word "multiply". He's now 20 and we don't often discuss math but to my knowledge he does still say it.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby somehow » Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:37 am UTC

I've heard people tell others that that usage of "times" is incorrect. Also, I think the vast majority of people who I've heard use "times" in that way have been no older than twelve-ish.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:07 am UTC

I've heard "plus" and "minus" used as verbs too (e.g. "you minus it by five"). I find it really grating to listen to but at least it's clear what they mean.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:14 pm UTC

Erezen wrote:It's also used to mean "nowadays," as in "It's hard to get a job around here anymore," or "from now on," as in, "You have to be more careful with knives anymore, kid."

So you said you are still very sure about the grammar?
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Copper Bezel » Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:36 pm UTC

I think he said, "[In terms of] grammar, [I use] positive anymore, a lot," but I may be missing the joke. = )
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby [ˈɖ͡ʐæk.sɪ̈n] » Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:49 pm UTC

(Hi, first post!)

For some reason, my /d/ and /d͡ʒ/ are instead retroflex [ɖ] and [ɖ͡ʐ] (as in my username, incidentally). My /t/ is plain [t]. And it's not the voicing that seems to cause the shift: when whispering, /k/ & /g/ and /p/ & /b/ sound the same, but /d/ stays retroflex. I'm not of Indian ancestry, and I live in Wisconsin, so I have no idea why I do this.

Otherwise, I don't have the pin-pen merger, nor the cot-caught merger, but Mary/marry/merry [meɹi] and bag/lag/vague -[æg] rhyme for me. Catch has an [æ]. I tend to form diphthongs with [i] and [u] as opposed to [ɪ] and [ʊ]: thus, cry is [kɹai] and though is [ðou]. Close (as in the verb) and clothes are both [klouz], the chs in ostrich and spinach are voiced, and I stick glottal stops everywhere as in the OP.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:09 pm UTC

[ˈɖ͡ʐæk.sɪ̈n] wrote:bag/lag/vague -[æg]

You pronounce vague with a short a? I don't think I've ever heard that.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:22 pm UTC

[ˈɖ͡ʐæk.sɪ̈n] wrote:I tend to form diphthongs with [і] and [u] as opposed to [ɪ] and [ʊ]: thus, cry is [kɹai] and though is [ðou].

Is this something which you've verified by comparing your speech to that of other English speakers? I ask because I think a lot of people's reactions (like mine) when they first see how English diphthongs are transcribed is to say, "[ɪ] and [ʊ]? That can't be right, they're obviously [i] and [u]." This is partly a problem of perception and partly one of imprecision in the IPA (the sounds transcribed as [ɪ] and [ʊ] can vary significantly), but outside of Scottish [ǝi], I very rarely if ever hear native English-speakers using a fully high [i] or [u] as a diphthongal offglide.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby O Choco » Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:10 am UTC

So, pin-pen merger.

I've been musing on this a little bit recently and I've noticed that, while I certainly do not have the merger, pronouncing the eponymous pin/pen as [pɪn], [pɛn]; in many other words, I use the KIT vowel instead of DRESS, i.e. any, many, then than = [ɪni mɪni ðɪn ðɪn], as well as in words such as enter, which for me is a homophone of inner [ɪɾ̃ɚ], but it's much less common before /m/ so empire = [ɛmpaɪɚ] &c. Is there a term for this? Partial lexical transfer or some similar linguistic terminology?

I feel like this must come from my time spent in the south. There are a few other such affectations in my speech... apparently, I use glottal stops at times when GenAm wouldn't, e.g. "something" in colloquial speech becomes [sʌmʔm̩], with a syllabic m, and I have some southernisms like y'all &c.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby [ˈɖ͡ʐæk.sɪ̈n] » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:02 am UTC

Lazar wrote:
[ˈɖ͡ʐæk.sɪ̈n] wrote:I tend to form diphthongs with [і] and [u] as opposed to [ɪ] and [ʊ]: thus, cry is [kɹai] and though is [ðou].

Is this something which you've verified by comparing your speech to that of other English speakers? I ask because I think a lot of people's reactions (like mine) when they first see how English diphthongs are transcribed is to say, "[ɪ] and [ʊ]? That can't be right, they're obviously [i] and [u]." This is partly a problem of perception and partly one of imprecision in the IPA (the sounds transcribed as [ɪ] and [ʊ] can vary significantly), but outside of Scottish [ǝi], I very rarely if ever hear native English-speakers using a fully high [i] or [u] as a diphthongal offglide.

Come to think of it, I really haven't. When I stretch them out, though, [a:ɪ] (for example) just seems unnatural.
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[ˈɖ͡ʐæk.sɪ̈n] wrote:bag/lag/vague -[æg]

You pronounce vague with a short a? I don't think I've ever heard that.

Yup! Although perhaps that's less of my dialect and more of my not being able to pronounce words properly. :P

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:13 am UTC

So "vague" rhymes with "bag"?

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby [ˈɖ͡ʐæk.sɪ̈n] » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:30 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:So "vague" rhymes with "bag"?

Yes, sir.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:09 pm UTC

They often rhyme for me, too, but with the vowel in "bake". I could definitely see myself hypercorrecting *both* of them back to the vowel in "back" in more careful speech.

(In much the same way, I occasionally find myself sticking an aspirated /t/ into words like "wedding" in situations where I'm already trying to pronounce "city" and "water" more carefully.)
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:24 pm UTC

Can I ask where you're from? Around here I do see some people essentially merging the vowels in "egg," "bag," and "vague," but usually only with the g following the vowel. I want to know where that comes from, because it definitely doesn't happen in my speech.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby [ˈɖ͡ʐæk.sɪ̈n] » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:57 pm UTC

I was born in Louisville, Kentucky, but I grew up and currently live in southeastern Wisconsin. I think it definitely is the /g/ that's doing it, because I also pronounce "bagel" with an /æ/ unless someone corrects me; "egg," however, has an /ɛ/.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:14 pm UTC

I'm from Michigan. It seems to be part of the Northern Cities Shift, but for me it likewise seems to only happen (or happen most noticeably) before a /g/ in particular.

Words like "bag" and "lag" rhyme for me with "vague" and have a vowel close to that of "bake", while "back", "lack", "vac[uum]", "bad", "lab", and "van", for example, all have what sounds to me to be the same realization of /æ/ that I hear from most other Americans.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:23 pm UTC

That's funny, so both of you merge the vowels but in opposite directions.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:19 am UTC

I'm familiar with /ɛg/ -> /eig/ (my mom does it, at least sometimes), I'm pretty sure it's broader than the northern cities shift. I don't think I've ever heard /æg/ -> /eig/ though.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Copper Bezel » Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:47 am UTC

Yeah, egg definitely has the [ej] vowel of vague and bake and bagel for me, and very much not the [æ] one in bag and lack. Kansas.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby O Choco » Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:03 pm UTC

Let's talk CURE vowels. I think this is probably one of the most variable sounds in modern English. Most places I can find prescribe [kjʊə(ɹ)] but I know of almost no one who pronounces it as such. I almost invariably say [kjɝ], that is ky+NURSE vowel, and in Colorado where I live this is definitely the most common pronunciation among young and/or urban people. But I've also heard people pronounce SURE as a homophone of SHORE, [ʃɔː(ɹ)], much moreso when I lived in the South. I'm curious [kjɝiɨs] to hear people's experiences.
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