Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby pogrmman » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:49 pm UTC

How do you guys say words that end in -alk and -alm?

I've always pronounced the l to some extent -- even in "talk". It's not super noticeable, but it is there. Despite having the caught/cot merger, "stock" and "stalk" are different for me. They've got the same vowel, but the l shows up a bit in "stalk". Same with the words palm, calm, balm, caulk and others.

I don't know where I picked this up but it happened even when I was little.

For reference, my accent is probably most similar to a pretty generic Western American one.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:06 pm UTC

pogrmman wrote:How do you guys say words that end in -alk and -alm?

I've always pronounced the l to some extent -- even in "talk". It's not super noticeable, but it is there. Despite having the caught/cot merger, "stock" and "stalk" are different for me. They've got the same vowel, but the l shows up a bit in "stalk". Same with the words palm, calm, balm, caulk and others.
For me, the l in talk and stalk is just completely silent; it makes the a say the /ɑ/ sound, but that's the same as the o sound in stock; but for words ending in -alm, I fully pronounce the l; it's completely there, not just a subtle thing, so /pɑlm/, /kɑlm/, etc.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:06 pm UTC

As a UKian - "palm" and "calm" rhyme with "arm", but "walk" and "talk" have a noticeable phantom l, i.e. "talk" is not a homophone of "torque" - in fact, it sounds like "tall", without the actual enunciation of the "l" but a "k" instead. If that makes sense.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby measure » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:59 am UTC

I think I have different vowels in stalk and stock (likewise father/bother), but neither has the /l/ sound. Palm, calm, balm all have /l/. Caulk does not (and it has a different vowel from the one in cock).

I am in Midwestern US.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:14 am UTC

I agree almost perfectly with measure and am also from the Midwest (NE Ohio).

"Stalk" and "stock" are something like /stɑk/ and /stɒk/, respectively. They definitely have no l sound. For whatever reason, the word "father" is not as easily placed, sort of going wherever it wants depending on the sentence, but typically closer to /ɑ/. "Palm" is definitely /pɑ:ɫm/, as are similar words ending -alm. I don't think I have any words with a "subtle l" sound.

And since measure mentioned caulk, I wonder how people here pronounce "solder." I always thought every American said /sɒdər/, but recently I've been hearing a lot of /soʊldər/. Do you think that's due to people who only know the word from writing, or is it actually a common pronunciation in parts of the U.S.?

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Aiwendil » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:09 pm UTC

pogrmman wrote:How do you guys say words that end in -alk and -alm?

I've always pronounced the l to some extent -- even in "talk". It's not super noticeable, but it is there. Despite having the caught/cot merger, "stock" and "stalk" are different for me. They've got the same vowel, but the l shows up a bit in "stalk". Same with the words palm, calm, balm, caulk and others.

I don't know where I picked this up but it happened even when I was little.

For reference, my accent is probably most similar to a pretty generic Western American one.


For me, in words ending in -alk the "l" triggers a change in the vowel, from the "cot" vowel to the "caught" vowel (which I distinguish), but I do not pronounce the "l" itself. So "stock" and "stalk" are different, but only because they have different vowels.

In words ending with -alm, the "l" doesn't even trigger a vowel change. So "calm" is the same as "comm" for me. The one exception is "balmy", which I do seem to pronounce with the "l" for some reason.

I'm from northern New Jersey.

Eebster the Great wrote:And since measure mentioned caulk, I wonder how people here pronounce "solder." I always thought every American said /sɒdər/, but recently I've been hearing a lot of /soʊldər/. Do you think that's due to people who only know the word from writing, or is it actually a common pronunciation in parts of the U.S.?


I don't think I've ever heard anything but /sɒdər/.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby pogrmman » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:47 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:I don't think I have any words with a "subtle l" sound.
And since measure mentioned caulk, I wonder how people here pronounce "solder." I always thought every American said /sɒdər/, but recently I've been hearing a lot of /soʊldər/. Do you think that's due to people who only know the word from writing, or is it actually a common pronunciation in parts of the U.S.?


I'm not really sure how to describe the "subtle l". In words like "talk" and "walk", it's more subtle than in "palm", "stalk", and "calm". It's almost like the l isn't pronounced fully, but blends into the vowel a bit. I'm not sure how else to describe it. All of my -alk words have a less strongly pronounced l than any -alm words.

I do have an l sound in "caulk". I pronounce it a bit more than I do in "stalk" but less than I do in any -alm word. I'm not really sure how to represent the "subtle l" i use in a lot of these words in IPA.

I've never heard or pronounced the l in solder. It may be people who picked it up from writing.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:21 am UTC

Funny that you should mention "solder", because I was think about that recently (need to fix some speaker cables, but I've never soldered before), and consequently thinking about it's pronunciation. I've usually said it /soʊldər/, based I'm sure on the spelling, but the "correct" American pronunciation and what I hear other people say is /sɑdər/. However I felt vindicated earlier today when I saw (not here) that the British pronunciation is /səʊldə/.

I'm not sure which pronunciation is original, but I suspect what is happening is that the American pronunciation is using the /ɑ/ as in the related word "solid" (not saying because of solid, just that they are etymologically related), then applying the same /l/ dropping as in "palm" or "calm". Interestingly however, while I do not pronounce "calm" and "comm" the same (the vowel in "calm" being more rounded, with perhaps a bit of a dark-L, so maybe something like [ɒɫ]), I would never consider pronouncing "solder" as in "calm", only either /ɑ/ as in "comm" or /oʊl/.

On the topic of "caulk", I pronounce that one with a full /l/. "Balk" too. However "talk" and "walk" typically do not have an /l/ for me (not sure if "talk" is the same as "tock" though). I suspect the first two, being much less common words, are more influenced by their spelling.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:55 pm UTC

Derek wrote:Funny that you should mention "solder", because I was think about that recently (need to fix some speaker cables, but I've never soldered before), and consequently thinking about it's pronunciation. I've usually said it /soʊldər/, based I'm sure on the spelling, but the "correct" American pronunciation and what I hear other people say is /sɑdər/. However I felt vindicated earlier today when I saw (not here) that the British pronunciation is /səʊldə/.

I'm not sure which pronunciation is original, but I suspect what is happening is that the American pronunciation is using the /ɑ/ as in the related word "solid" (not saying because of solid, just that they are etymologically related), then applying the same /l/ dropping as in "palm" or "calm". Interestingly however, while I do not pronounce "calm" and "comm" the same (the vowel in "calm" being more rounded, with perhaps a bit of a dark-L, so maybe something like [ɒɫ]), I would never consider pronouncing "solder" as in "calm", only either /ɑ/ as in "comm" or /oʊl/.

On the topic of "caulk", I pronounce that one with a full /l/. "Balk" too. However "talk" and "walk" typically do not have an /l/ for me (not sure if "talk" is the same as "tock" though). I suspect the first two, being much less common words, are more influenced by their spelling.


"talk" is the same as "tock" for me, like "walk" for me is the same as "wok". In fact, it's common where I live for Chinese restaurants to say "wok in" on the front of them as a pun.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:23 pm UTC

"tomorrow"
"morrow"
"sorrow"
"borrow"
"sorry"
"foreign"
"origin"
"majority"
"minority"
"forest"
"horrible"
"orange"
"warranty"
"Florida"
"horror"

How do you pronounce the "or" in these words? I pronounce the "or" in "tomorrow", "morrow", "sorrow", "borrow" and "sorry" with the vowel I use in "dark", and the rest of the words with the vowel I use in "fork".

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:48 pm UTC

I pronounce all of those with the same "o" as "dog", none of them match either "fork" or "dark".
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby measure » Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:29 pm UTC

Mega85 wrote:How do you pronounce the "or" in these words?

Dark-like:
    "tomorrow"
    "morrow"
    "sorrow"
    "borrow"
    "sorry"

Fork-like:
    "foreign"
    "origin"
    "majority"
    "minority"
    "forest"
    "horrible"
    "orange"
    "warranty"
    "Florida"
    "horror"

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:54 pm UTC

They split like this for me:

"tomorrow"
"morrow"
"sorrow"
"borrow"
"sorry"

And:

"foreign"
"origin"
"majority"
"minority"
"forest"
"horrible"
"orange"
"warranty"
"Florida"
"horror"

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:51 pm UTC

Derek wrote:They split like this for me:

"tomorrow"
"morrow"
"sorrow"
"borrow"
"sorry"

And:

"foreign"
"origin"
"majority"
"minority"
"forest"
"horrible"
"orange"
"warranty"
"Florida"
"horror"


Yeah, that's the typical American pattern. In New York English, all the words have the vowel in "dark", in Canadian English all the words have the vowel in "fork".

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:22 pm UTC

Do you refer to a coupon as a "coo pon" or a "Q pon"?

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:23 pm UTC

Coo.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:13 pm UTC

Definitely Coo. Maybe it's because I learned French when I was little, but I hate hearing "kyoo-pon". My Dad pronounces the word that way and for years insisted it was the only correct pronunciation "because it's a French u."

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:56 pm UTC

Coo coo.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:45 am UTC

It's definitely a Q. "Coopon" sounds weird.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:25 pm UTC

I actually wonder how English speakers say the pon part. (In German Kupon/Coupon is pronounced as in French, so coo-pong. I guess the nasal sound might not be 100% the same, but close.)
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby eSOANEM » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:29 pm UTC

In the UK I've pretty much just heard it without a yodh (coo-pon), queue-pon I perceive as an american pronunciation.

We pronounce it with a final n, not an ng or a nasal vowel.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby freezeblade » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:19 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:In the UK I've pretty much just heard it without a yodh (coo-pon), queue-pon I perceive as an american pronunciation.

We pronounce it with a final n, not an ng or a nasal vowel.


Maybe this is a West Coast (California in this case) thing, but I've only ever heard it as coo-pon, any other pronunciation sounds...so wrong, I don't think I've ever even heard it as queue-pon.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby New User » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:29 pm UTC

I've heard both, and I sometimes say either.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:31 pm UTC

New User wrote:I sometimes say either
But is that ee-ther or aye-ther? :P
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:42 pm UTC

The pronunciation Q pon comes from yod-insertion (the opposite of yod-dropping) in the word "coupon".

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Liri » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:49 pm UTC

I hear Q pon in the American Southeast relatively often (offen?) but pretty much only by people with robust accents.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Zohar » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:53 pm UTC

I wonder who decided to use the Hebrew "yod" as the name for this sound.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:18 pm UTC

Maybe German j = jot = yot played a role, too?
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Zohar » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:16 pm UTC

Wiki seems to say it is derived from Hebrew, but who knows, maybe. Certainly I don't care enough to do more research than this ;)
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:25 pm UTC

flicky1991 wrote:
New User wrote:I sometimes say either
But is that ee-ther or aye-ther? :P

Either one

Liri wrote:I hear Q pon in the American Southeast relatively often (offen?) but pretty much only by people with robust accents.

The t is silent, as in "soften."

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Znirk » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:41 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Wiki seems to say it is derived from Hebrew, but who knows, maybe. Certainly I don't care enough to do more research than this ;)

Maybe it's from before Modern Hebrew became a success, and the intention was to use something from a dead language? Just guessing.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Grop » Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:42 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:
Liri wrote:I hear Q pon in the American Southeast relatively often (offen?) but pretty much only by people with robust accents.

The t is silent, as in "soften."


I think I heard some native speakers say the t in often, but I don't remember which ones (or where they were from).

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Angua » Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:57 am UTC

I always pronounce the t in often. I don't really pronounce the t in soften though, it's more of a glottal stop.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:27 am UTC

Angua wrote:I always pronounce the t in often. I don't really pronounce the t in soften though, it's more of a glottal stop.

There is a stop between the f and the e? I find that sort of hard to think about. Soff In?

I would rhyme "soften" with "coffin."

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Angua » Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:03 am UTC

Yeah, I think so. It is a small stop but there.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Aiwendil » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:32 am UTC

Grop wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:
Liri wrote:I hear Q pon in the American Southeast relatively often (offen?) but pretty much only by people with robust accents.

The t is silent, as in "soften."


I think I heard some native speakers say the t in often, but I don't remember which ones (or where they were from).


I pronounce the t in 'often'. (From northern New Jersey).

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Liri » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:13 pm UTC

I, too, pronounce it. My opera singer friend, however, insists the proper pronunciation drops the T because that's what she learned in her singing phonetics course. She was unable to convince me.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:58 pm UTC

This dic http://www.learnersdictionary.com/definition/often agrees with your opera singer, but the Merriam Webster main dictionary https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/often lists both.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:47 pm UTC

Arts classes can create some pretty inflexible opinions about language. My father once told me that when speaking carefully, one should never pronounce the word "the" as "thee" or "a" as "ae." It took me a while before I realized that the former at least was pretty much universal before vowel sounds and was in fact recommended by pretty much every source I could find. The latter is only used for emphasis though, and that might be the usage his professor was discouraging.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:13 pm UTC

Merriam-Webster lists "often" with a "t" sound and puts a "÷" before that pronunciation. That is used in that dictionary for pronunciations that are commonly prescribed against.


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