Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

For the discussion of language mechanics, grammar, vocabulary, trends, and other such linguistic topics, in english and other languages.

Moderators: gmalivuk, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Monika
Welcoming Aarvark
Posts: 3672
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:03 am UTC
Location: Germany, near Heidelberg
Contact:

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:22 pm UTC

Velifer wrote:My relatives ring a /beɪl/ and feed a /bɛl/ to the horse. *shrug*.

They ring a bell and feed what to a horse?
#xkcd-q on irc.foonetic.net - the LGBTIQQA support channel
Please donate to help these people

User avatar
nehpest
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:25 pm UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby nehpest » Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:29 pm UTC

Monika wrote:
Velifer wrote:My relatives ring a /beɪl/ and feed a /bɛl/ to the horse. *shrug*.

They ring a bell and feed what to a horse?

A bale is a big, rectangular bundle of hay, straw, or other grass-like crop. We use it as livestock feed.
Kewangji wrote:Someone told me I need to stop being so arrogant. Like I'd care about their plebeian opinions.

blag

User avatar
Monika
Welcoming Aarvark
Posts: 3672
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:03 am UTC
Location: Germany, near Heidelberg
Contact:

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:41 pm UTC

nehpest wrote:A bale is a big, rectangular bundle of hay, straw, or other grass-like crop. We use it as livestock feed.

Aaah, Ballen, thank you :) .



And, very late:
Lazar wrote:
Monika wrote:I do not make the unemphasized vowels into schwas - is there a noun for this? Schwaification?

The commonly used term for that is reduction.

Thanks for that word, Lazar :) .
#xkcd-q on irc.foonetic.net - the LGBTIQQA support channel
Please donate to help these people

User avatar
nehpest
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:25 pm UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby nehpest » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:00 pm UTC

Monika wrote:
nehpest wrote:A bale is a big, rectangular bundle of hay, straw, or other grass-like crop. We use it as livestock feed.

Aaah, Ballen, thank you :) .


My pleasure. In the dialect of English common in my area (Los Angeles) ballin' means something very different :lol:
Kewangji wrote:Someone told me I need to stop being so arrogant. Like I'd care about their plebeian opinions.

blag

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3460
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:45 pm UTC

I have heard [sɪŋkwɛn̠ʧəl] and [ɛk sɛɾɚə] (the latter is especially common (and slightly irritating, like [aeks] for ask)), but I have never heard "[æm.ˈbɪ.gwɪ.ɾi]", and "[ə.dæp.ʃən]" just sounds wrong. That can't really just be a matter of pronunciation; they are dropping an entire syllable, which makes sense in "ambiguity,' but not in "adaptation."

On a separate note, does anybody else here frequently here /ˌhɑːbəˈnjɛəroʊ/ for habanero? Americans probably get that from jalapeño.

Derek
Posts: 2181
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:15 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:53 am UTC

fənɑlədʒɪst wrote:Sequentially - According to dictionaries, the "standard" pronunciation for this word should be [sɪkwɛnʃəli], but many speakers I've encountered say [sɪŋkwɛn̠ʧəli]. Why? Nasal epenthesis? The postalveolar fricative becoming an affricate is likely the release from the coronal nasal stop, which is pretty cool actually.

I pronounce ʧ in "sequentially", for the reason you mentioned, I think. But I don't do the ŋ thing.

Etcetera - "Standard" American pronunciation is supposedly [ɛt sɛɾɚə], but many speakers here say [ɛk sɛɾɚə], reminiscent of the "ekspecially" pronunciation above.

I do [ɛk sɛɾɚə] at least some of the time. My guess is that it comes from a mix up with the more Latin pronunciation, [ɛt kɛɾɚə].

Adaptation and Ambiguity - I'm not even sure how to classify these, but rather than [æ.dəp.teɪ.ʃən] and [æm.bɪ.ˈgju.ɪ.ɾi], I've heard people say [ə.dæp.ʃən] and [æm.ˈbɪ.gwɪ.ɾi]. "Adaption" seems to be a word in its own right, but when I asked people to spell the word they had just said, they spelled it as "adaptation," so they weren't thinking of the word "adaption" to my knowledge. As for ambiguity... I have no idea. I should ask those speakers how they pronounce "ambiguous" perhaps?

Probably unrelated, but I pronounce [æ.dæp.teɪ.ʃən] (æ in both the first two syllables).

posentin
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:03 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby posentin » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:39 pm UTC

existentialpanda wrote:
posentin wrote:I'm from california, and have the same pronunciation of "mirror" as /mɛrɚ/. It definitely doesn't rhyme with 'nearer' to me, and saying it with an /i/ sounds antiquated.

My accent is affected by the californian vowel shift, my most particularly noticed shifted word is "shit" as /ʃɛt/. And although my /ʊ/ words are shifted to /ʌ/ quite a lot, I hardly get called on that though.

I also say "chap stick" as "chop stick" as i've been told.


What part of California? I'm from Southern CA - San Diego and now Pasadena - and I've never heard 'mirror' not rhyme with 'nearer'....nor have I ever heard 'chap stick' pronounced 'chop stick.'


I'm originally from L.A., but grew up around the san gabriel valley. It's funny how I'll get called on for saying "chop stick" but never once for "merror", and wonder if they can be attributed to the CVS.

User avatar
Monika
Welcoming Aarvark
Posts: 3672
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:03 am UTC
Location: Germany, near Heidelberg
Contact:

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:21 pm UTC

What's wrong for "chop stick"?
#xkcd-q on irc.foonetic.net - the LGBTIQQA support channel
Please donate to help these people

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3460
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:32 pm UTC

Monika wrote:What's wrong for "chop stick"?

It's how he pronounces "chap stick."

Makri
Posts: 654
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:57 pm UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Makri » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:02 am UTC

My guess is that it comes from a mix up with the more Latin pronunciation, [ɛt kɛɾɚə].


I think this is extremely improbable. I bet most people who do the /ks/ instead of /ts/ have no idea about Latin k-pronunciation...
¬□(∀♀(∃♂(♀❤♂)⟷∃♂(♂❤♀)))

cntrational
This guy's name is a utter lie.
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:36 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby cntrational » Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:35 pm UTC

I use /ɛk sɛɹɚə/. :(

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Iulus Cofield » Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:30 pm UTC

You don't have trouble saying two rhotic sounds in a row?
I always feel like Scooby do whenever that happens, unless, weirdly, it's two rhotic shwas in a row.

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3460
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:19 pm UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:You don't have trouble saying two rhotic sounds in a row?
I always feel like Scooby do whenever that happens, unless, weirdly, it's two rhotic shwas in a row.

How do you deal wtih the word "rarer?" As in, "There's her rarer ring."

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:52 am UTC

I can say it, no problem, but I feel like Scooby Doo.
Due to a hyper-spelling pronunciation phase I went through (oh youth!) and learning Japanese I can pretty well formulate pretty difficult consonant clusters and adjacent, non-diphthong vowels.
Recently I've been on a quest to learn how to say things I previously thought impossible for me. Like [ɛn], [ɴ], and [ɸ]. I'm still trying to get the hang of the voiced version of the last one.

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3460
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:27 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:I can say it, no problem, but I feel like Scooby Doo.
Due to a hyper-spelling pronunciation phase I went through (oh youth!) and learning Japanese I can pretty well formulate pretty difficult consonant clusters and adjacent, non-diphthong vowels.
Recently I've been on a quest to learn how to say things I previously thought impossible for me. Like [ɛn], [ɴ], and [ɸ]. I'm still trying to get the hang of the voiced version of the last one.

How is [ɛn] difficult to pronounce? Isn't that extremely common in English?

cntrational
This guy's name is a utter lie.
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:36 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby cntrational » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:56 pm UTC

[ɸ] isn't particularly hard, either. It's an /f/ pronounced only with your lips, instead of lips+teeth.

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:40 pm UTC

No sound is inherently difficult to pronounce, but they are outside my phonetic inventory, so...

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3460
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:47 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:No sound is inherently difficult to pronounce, but they are outside my phonetic inventory, so...

What I meant is that I don't know how you could speak English without [ɛn]. How do you pronounce words like "ten?"

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:34 am UTC

I'm part of the pin/pen merger. Before any nasal [ɛ] becomes a vowel which, I think for me at least, is somewhere between [ɛ] and [ɪ], but closer to [ɪ]. There's been only one occasion, at least that I am aware of, where someone was confused by it. My friend thought I said, "I am a pin" until I asked him to pick me up and write something.
While I can say [ɛn], [ɛm], and [ɛŋ] now, I still can't really hear the difference. If I try really hard and ask people to repeat it, I can kind of tell the difference, but I still get confused which is which.

One thing I noticed recently is that my /l/ is dental, unless it's velar of course.

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3460
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:03 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:I'm part of the pin/pen merger.

OK that makes sense.

While I can say [ɛn], [ɛm], and [ɛŋ] now, I still can't really hear the difference.

Wait, are you saying you can't distinguish [ɛn] from [ɛm] or [ɛm] from [ɪm]?

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:17 am UTC

I can't distinguish [ɛm] from [ɪm], etc.

Derek
Posts: 2181
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:15 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:54 am UTC

I have the pen/pin merger as well, and as a result saying [ɛn] feels weird, though I can do it if I wish (which is never).

Iulus Cofield wrote:You don't have trouble saying two rhotic sounds in a row?
I always feel like Scooby do whenever that happens, unless, weirdly, it's two rhotic shwas in a row.

I don't really consider the flap to be rhotic. At least not in English. Its just (to me) a very relaxed /d/ or /t/. I don't know if that sounds silly.

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:55 am UTC

CntRational wrote:I use /ɛk sɛɹɚə/. :(


Derek wrote:I don't really consider the flap to be rhotic. At least not in English. Its just (to me) a very relaxed /d/ or /t/. I don't know if that sounds silly.


[ɹ] is the standard English <r>, an alveolar approximant. [ɾ] is the alveolar flap. I think most people consider flaps to be very t/d-like, unless it a Japanese flap. In which case people will argue until the sun rises.

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3460
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:35 pm UTC

Nevertheless, I think both [ɛk sɛɹɚə] and [ɛk sɛɾɚə] would sound very odd. I have heard [ɛk sɛtɹə], though.

User avatar
Monika
Welcoming Aarvark
Posts: 3672
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:03 am UTC
Location: Germany, near Heidelberg
Contact:

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:57 pm UTC

Is this [ɛk-] pronunciation the reason why English-speaking people often abbreviate etcetera with ect. instead of etc.? (It's not actually considered correct, is it?)
#xkcd-q on irc.foonetic.net - the LGBTIQQA support channel
Please donate to help these people

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3460
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:42 pm UTC

Monika wrote:Is this [ɛk-] pronunciation the reason why English-speaking people often abbreviate etcetera with ect. instead of etc.? (It's not actually considered correct, is it?)

Either it's that or it's just an ordinary typo. It's kind of hard to distinguish sometimes.

Derek
Posts: 2181
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:15 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:10 pm UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:
CntRational wrote:I use /ɛk sɛɹɚə/. :(


Derek wrote:I don't really consider the flap to be rhotic. At least not in English. Its just (to me) a very relaxed /d/ or /t/. I don't know if that sounds silly.


[ɹ] is the standard English <r>, an alveolar approximant. [ɾ] is the alveolar flap. I think most people consider flaps to be very t/d-like, unless it a Japanese flap. In which case people will argue until the sun rises.

Oops, I read his post wrong. I wonder if he meant to use [ɾ], because [ɹ] doesn't make much sense there.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26765
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:28 pm UTC

Derek wrote:I do [ɛk sɛɾɚə] at least some of the time. My guess is that it comes from a mix up with the more Latin pronunciation, [ɛt kɛɾɚə].
I wouldn't believe that for a second. I'm quite a language geek, and I didn't know the Latin pronunciation was /k/ until rather recently myself. I suspect anyone who knows much about classical Latin would be so lax as to mispronounce et cetera in such a way as to remove the /t/ entirely.

Rather, it likely results from the fact that /ɛks/ is a much more common way to begin English words than /ɛts/. (Along the same lines are people who pronounce "espresso" as though it was from the English "express" instead of Italian.)
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Iulus Cofield » Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:06 pm UTC

I've been noticing my idio/dialect is unfriendly to [æ]. Definitely dialectical is [æ]->[e]/__[ŋ]. But I also have a tendency to shift it to [ɑ] in some pattern I'm not quite sure of, though I'm pretty sure it has something to do with stress.

One prominent example is the proper noun <Kitsap>, pronounced by locals as [kɪt'sæp], but, even though I learned the pronunciation from hearing it, I have to catch myself from saying ['kɪtt͡sɑp]. Last night I also switched to [ɑ] in a word's ultima, which I was repeating from someone else's utterance where she used [æ]. Can't remember what word, though.
On the other hand, I seem to use [æ] regularly in stressed syllables, notably in some idiolectical pronunciations. For example [səb'stæntɪv] for the more conventional ['sʌbstəntɪv]. I also can't think of a monosyllabic example where I would use an alternative vowel.

I should really just start recording myself constantly, and perhaps refer to myself exclusively in the third person.

User avatar
Monika
Welcoming Aarvark
Posts: 3672
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:03 am UTC
Location: Germany, near Heidelberg
Contact:

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:58 am UTC

I am in South Africa right now. There are some interesting sound changes.
When they say burger, it sounds very much like bagle to me.
In some cases, [u:] seems to become [ü:] and [o:] to [ö:] (<-- not sure if this is the right IPA char, I mean like German ö) ... but I can't quite pin it down, it definitely doesn't happen always.
Or maybe only some speakers do it (maybe those who speak Afrikaans as their primary language, that would make sense at least for the [ü:] I guess).
#xkcd-q on irc.foonetic.net - the LGBTIQQA support channel
Please donate to help these people

Derek
Posts: 2181
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:15 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:44 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:I've been noticing my idio/dialect is unfriendly to [æ]. Definitely dialectical is [æ]->[e]/__[ŋ].

I believe this would be æ-tensing. For example, my [æ] is noticeably different before nasals. Before [n] and [m] its closer to [ɛə] and before [ŋ] its [ei]. In fact I don't even consider -ang words to be short a's at all when I think about them, whereas I think of -an and -am as short a's, even though they are noticeably different.

fənɑlədʒɪst
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:14 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby fənɑlədʒɪst » Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:56 am UTC

nehpest wrote:
Monika wrote:
Velifer wrote:My relatives ring a /beɪl/ and feed a /bɛl/ to the horse. *shrug*.

They ring a bell and feed what to a horse?

A bale is a big, rectangular bundle of hay, straw, or other grass-like crop. We use it as livestock feed.


The IPA they used actually suggests that they ring a "bale" and feed a "bell" to the horse. Interesting idiolects, that person's family has... I wonder how that came about.

Monika wrote:In some cases, [u:] seems to become [ü:] and [o:] to [ö:] (<-- not sure if this is the right IPA char, I mean like German ö) ... but I can't quite pin it down, it definitely doesn't happen always..


The German <ö> is usually [ø] or the long [ø:]~

Derek wrote:
Iulus Cofield wrote:I've been noticing my idio/dialect is unfriendly to [æ]. Definitely dialectical is [æ]->[e]/__[ŋ].

I believe this would be æ-tensing. For example, my [æ] is noticeably different before nasals. Before [n] and [m] its closer to [ɛə] and before [ŋ] its [ei]. In fact I don't even consider -ang words to be short a's at all when I think about them, whereas I think of -an and -am as short a's, even though they are noticeably different.


It's definitely æ-tensing. Your pronunciation is slightly different from my æ-tensing though. After using Praat and charting my vowels, they average out something like this:

/æ/ -> [͡eə] / _ [n], [m]
/æ/ -> [͡ei] / _ [ŋ]

I've noticed that it's basically impossible for me to stop from making some sort of [i] sound before a velar nasal. I've read countless times that <sink> is supposedly [sɪŋk], but spectrogram analysis tells me I say [siŋk]. Am I the only one who strongly disagrees with the whole idea of teaching people what the phonetic transcription for words is "supposed" to be? As linguists, aren't we supposed to believe in infinite variation? I mean, I've met a native English speaker from the South who shows spirantization of intervocalic /k/ to [x]. If that can happen in "American English," then anything can haha.

cntrational
This guy's name is a utter lie.
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:36 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby cntrational » Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:15 am UTC

[quote=gmalivuk](Along the same lines are people who pronounce "espresso" as though it was from the English "express" instead of Italian.)[/quote]

oh shit

[quote=fənɑlədʒɪst]Am I the only one who strongly disagrees with the whole idea of teaching people what the phonetic transcription for words is "supposed" to be? As linguists, aren't we supposed to believe in infinite variation? I mean, I've met a native English speaker from the South who shows spirantization of intervocalic /k/ to [x]. If that can happen in "American English," then anything can haha.[/quote]

heh, I find that the IPA allows a pretty huge variation on transcriptions.

Aiwendil42
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 8:52 pm UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Aiwendil42 » Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:19 pm UTC

I've noticed that it's basically impossible for me to stop from making some sort of [i] sound before a velar nasal. I've read countless times that <sink> is supposedly [sɪŋk], but spectrogram analysis tells me I say [siŋk].


That's interesting - I have æ-tensing as well, but it only affects æ before n or m (where it becomes [eə]). Before [ŋ] it remains [æ]. I do know speakers for whom tensing occurs before [ŋ] as well, but as far as I can tell, for them it becomes [eə] in this case also, with no [i] in sight. Although it's possible that I just haven't listened closely enough, and it does in fact become [ei] for them.

fənɑlədʒɪst
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:14 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby fənɑlədʒɪst » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:49 am UTC

CntRational wrote:
fənɑlədʒɪst wrote:Am I the only one who strongly disagrees with the whole idea of teaching people what the phonetic transcription for words is "supposed" to be? As linguists, aren't we supposed to believe in infinite variation? I mean, I've met a native English speaker from the South who shows spirantization of intervocalic /k/ to [x]. If that can happen in "American English," then anything can haha.


heh, I find that the IPA allows a pretty huge variation on transcriptions.


Ah, I think you misunderstood what I mean. I'm not saying that the IPA is incapable of expressing huge variation. I'm saying that I don't think linguistics classes should teach IPA by saying things like, "The IPA transcription of <mustache> is [ˈmʌ.stæʃ]" because not everyone pronounces it that way. For example, I pronounce it as [mə.ˈstæʃ]. Likewise, telling people that <sing> is [sɪŋ]? What about me, saying [siŋ]? I'm just saying that claiming that a word is transcribed a certain way in IPA sounds very prescriptive... which is totally not the point of IPA at all, haha. It's supposed to be used to describe pronunciation as it is, not how it "should" be.

Aiwendil42 wrote:
I've noticed that it's basically impossible for me to stop from making some sort of [i] sound before a velar nasal. I've read countless times that <sink> is supposedly [sɪŋk], but spectrogram analysis tells me I say [siŋk].


That's interesting - I have æ-tensing as well, but it only affects æ before n or m (where it becomes [eə]). Before [ŋ] it remains [æ]. I do know speakers for whom tensing occurs before [ŋ] as well, but as far as I can tell, for them it becomes [eə] in this case also, with no [i] in sight. Although it's possible that I just haven't listened closely enough, and it does in fact become [ei] for them.


Huh. I've never met anyone who doesn't have æ-tensing before [ŋ]. I bet if I heard you say <bang>, I'd freak out. So I just ran Praat analysis on me saying <bang> ten times and averaged the results, and it appears that I'm currently saying something more akin to [b͡ɛeŋ] than [b͡eɪŋ].

Derek
Posts: 2181
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:15 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:44 am UTC

fənɑlədʒɪst wrote:It's definitely æ-tensing. Your pronunciation is slightly different from my æ-tensing though. After using Praat and charting my vowels, they average out something like this:

/æ/ -> [͡eə] / _ [n], [m]
/æ/ -> [͡ei] / _ [ŋ]

This Praat thing sounds interesting. I can at best only guess at my precise pronunciations. I downloaded it, but I can't really figure out how it works.

I've noticed that it's basically impossible for me to stop from making some sort of [i] sound before a velar nasal. I've read countless times that <sink> is supposedly [sɪŋk], but spectrogram analysis tells me I say [siŋk].

In my introductory linguistics class when we were going over IPA a lot of the class objected to the professor's representation of <sing> as [sɪŋg] over [siŋg]. It basically came down to "this is how we're going to do it for this class". I know that for myself its much closer to [i] than [ɪ], though not quite exact.

We also had a big discussion when giving example words for the English vowels over whether "body" and "bawd" had the same vowel. None of us realized that the cot-caught merger was the actual issue. The professor must have known, but for whatever reason she never explained it. We discussed it (along with other things like the pin-pen merger) much later in class.

Am I the only one who strongly disagrees with the whole idea of teaching people what the phonetic transcription for words is "supposed" to be? As linguists, aren't we supposed to believe in infinite variation? I mean, I've met a native English speaker from the South who shows spirantization of intervocalic /k/ to [x]. If that can happen in "American English," then anything can haha.

Well dictionaries have to give some kind of pronunciation guide, and they don't want to list every possible dialectual pronunciation. So they basically agree on broad standards for representing English, and those standards can generally be interpreted into whichever dialect is in question. So you see an IPA representation of [sɪŋg] and you know that in your accent its actually [sing]. I don't always agree with these standards myself (like for [ɪŋg] for "-ing" and [æŋg] for "-ang"), but I just accept it (and wonder what accents actually use those pronunciations). But of course, if you want to represent an individual's pronunciation, you should always use the more accurate representation.

This reminds me of another thing though. It seems to me that I invariably pronounce [tr] (as in "true") as [t͡ʃr], and I think this is common if not standard, but I can't say I pay very close attention. What have others experienced?

Huh. I've never met anyone who doesn't have æ-tensing before [ŋ]. I bet if I heard you say <bang>, I'd freak out. So I just ran Praat analysis on me saying <bang> ten times and averaged the results, and it appears that I'm currently saying something more akin to [b͡ɛeŋ] than [b͡eɪŋ].

Same. I don't think I've ever heard un-tensed [æ] before [ŋ]. BTW, how does that pronunciation of "bang" compare to your normal long a, like in "bane"?

Here is a completely new one: I read some time ago about Ng-coalescence on Wikipedia. It specifically mentions "singer" and "finger" not rhyming (at least not exactly) in most dialects, the former being [sɪŋər] and the latter [fɪŋgər]. This surprised me. As far as I can tell, I pronounce "singer" and "finger" differ only in the initial consonant in my accent, but I honestly couldn't tell you whether it is [ɪŋər] or [ɪŋgər].

User avatar
Monika
Welcoming Aarvark
Posts: 3672
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:03 am UTC
Location: Germany, near Heidelberg
Contact:

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:57 am UTC

Derek wrote:This reminds me of another thing though. It seems to me that I invariably pronounce [tr] (as in "true") as [t͡ʃr], and I think this is common if not standard, but I can't say I pay very close attention. What have others experienced?

Wait, you're saying you pronounce true as tshrue? I have never heard such a thing.

Here is a completely new one: I read some time ago about Ng-coalescence on Wikipedia. It specifically mentions "singer" and "finger" not rhyming (at least not exactly) in most dialects, the former being [sɪŋər] and the latter [fɪŋgər]. This surprised me. As far as I can tell, I pronounce "singer" and "finger" differ only in the initial consonant in my accent, but I honestly couldn't tell you whether it is [ɪŋər] or [ɪŋgər].

What, you can't tell whether you say g or not? That's strange. You could record it and upload a file where you say singer and finger a couple of times. But we can also make a guess, the WP article says "Some accents ... do not show the full effects of Ng-coalescence ... in these accents sing may be found with [ŋɡ], the suffix -ing may be pronounced [ɪŋɡ]". So you most likely say both finger and singer with [ŋɡ].
#xkcd-q on irc.foonetic.net - the LGBTIQQA support channel
Please donate to help these people

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3460
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:21 am UTC

Monika wrote:
Derek wrote:This reminds me of another thing though. It seems to me that I invariably pronounce [tr] (as in "true") as [t͡ʃr], and I think this is common if not standard, but I can't say I pay very close attention. What have others experienced?

Wait, you're saying you pronounce true as tshrue? I have never heard such a thing.

In my experience it's more like "tchrue." The sound is similar to saying "match" immediately followed by "rue."

I say either [t͡ʃr] or [tr] interchangeably.

User avatar
Lazar
Landed Gentry
Posts: 2151
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:49 pm UTC
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:45 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:
Monika wrote:
Derek wrote:This reminds me of another thing though. It seems to me that I invariably pronounce [tr] (as in "true") as [t͡ʃr], and I think this is common if not standard, but I can't say I pay very close attention. What have others experienced?

Wait, you're saying you pronounce true as tshrue? I have never heard such a thing.

In my experience it's more like "tchrue." The sound is similar to saying "match" immediately followed by "rue."

I say either [t͡ʃr] or [tr] interchangeably.

In American English it's common, but not universal, to affricate /tr/ and /dr/ into [tʃɹ] and [dʒɹ]. In my idiolect there's a rather distinct lack of affrication in those sequences; I pronounce them as [t(ʰ)ɹ] and [dɹ] without much transitional articulation between the plosive and the liquid.
Exit the vampires' castle.

fənɑlədʒɪst
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:14 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby fənɑlədʒɪst » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:32 pm UTC

Derek wrote:This Praat thing sounds interesting. I can at best only guess at my precise pronunciations. I downloaded it, but I can't really figure out how it works.

In my introductory linguistics class when we were going over IPA a lot of the class objected to the professor's representation of <sing> as [sɪŋg] over [siŋg].

Well dictionaries have to give some kind of pronunciation guide, and they don't want to list every possible dialectal pronunciation.

This reminds me of another thing though. It seems to me that I invariably pronounce [tr] (as in "true") as [t͡ʃr], and I think this is common if not standard, but I can't say I pay very close attention. What have others experienced?

Same. I don't think I've ever heard un-tensed [æ] before [ŋ]. BTW, how does that pronunciation of "bang" compare to your normal long a, like in "bane"?

Here is a completely new one: I read some time ago about Ng-coalescence on Wikipedia. It specifically mentions "singer" and "finger" not rhyming (at least not exactly) in most dialects, the former being [sɪŋər] and the latter [fɪŋgər]. This surprised me. As far as I can tell, I pronounce "singer" and "finger" differ only in the initial consonant in my accent, but I honestly couldn't tell you whether it is [ɪŋər] or [ɪŋgər].


Maybe I should make a topic about Praat and how to use it? Would anyone be interested? I don't know everything, but I had to use it extensively for my research project- phonetic case study of two Japanese speakers. Charting vowels and making spectrogram charts with textgrids and such is becoming a daily chore for me heh.

I've never heard anyone pronounce <sing> as anything but [siŋ]. A velar stop at the end sounds like a spelling pronunciation or something to me.

Oh no. I definitely agree that dictionaries should use a phonemic representation of a word, at least, in the "Standard" dialect, whatever "Standard" even means. It's useful. I just don't agree with linguistics courses doing that, because we're supposed to be above prescriptivism.

Oh, there's no doubt that I and everyone I know here in Georgia pronounces /tɹ dɹ/ as [ʧɹ ʤɹ]. Affrication of alveolar stops before approximant "r" is really common in the States, but there are people who don't and think it's ridiculous to do so :P I'm pretty sure they're a minority though.

My pronunciation of <bane>'s diphthong starts off higher and ends higher than my diphthong in <bang>. I would transcribe it with the usual [beɪn] or [bein].

Oh wow. I didn't even know that <singer> and <finger> could rhyme in some dialects. For me, they're very distinctly [siŋ.ɚ] and [fiŋ.gɚ].


Return to “Language/Linguistics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests