Tower Defense games

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Patashu
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Tower Defense games

Postby Patashu » Mon May 12, 2008 9:02 am UTC

Firstly, I'd just like to make sure that such a genre fits in logic puzzles. I mean, they're games about being posed a problem and having to optimize and tailor a solution, and such solutions are independent (mostly) of the player's skill.

So, I've been interested in TDs lately and want this thread to have the dual purpose of sharing TDs that people think have strategical depth and then work on beating them into the ground.

Here's one I've been playing lately, Jungle Hunt TD: http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/435399
Yes, ranged units are going to miss under most circumstances. However, the game gives you the tools to solve this. So far I've beaten easy, beaten medium and hit wave 47 on hard. This one intrigues me the most since I don't know if anyone else has tried to optimize this to the extent I have.

Antbuster is nice, but relies a lot on luck since the ants move so randomly. http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/378646
General consensus on its forum seems to be that snipers + icers are the best cannons.

Onslaught. I need to play this sometime, actually: http://onslaught.playr.co.uk/
Although, I feel Onslaught has already been thoroughly optimized. Check out threads on its forum for advanced laser chaining and stuff like that.

Any others/thoughts?

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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby Strilanc » Tue May 13, 2008 3:14 pm UTC

I really prefer 'mazing' type TDs, where you have terrain to work with and the runners have to hook around your towers. Then your tower placement *really* starts to matter. A good example is Cube Defense, a map in warcraft 3.

'Fixed Track' TDs are relatively easy to analyze in comparison. Find the tower with the best dmg/cost. Build lots of it. Throw in support towers.
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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby SPsnow02 » Tue May 13, 2008 3:19 pm UTC

My favorite is a Mazing type one in Warcraft 3, Gem Td.
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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby Dobblesworth » Tue May 13, 2008 4:10 pm UTC

Like the 2 above, I only know TD's through playing Warcraft 3 custom maps. Of these my favourite is the Warhammer 40,000 TD, where each of the 40k races and a majority of units are represented in a set of towers. The AI pathing is fairly simple - spawns in 8 channels around the map, 1 circuit around a central ring, before entering the final chamber (if there are any left). As a result, the basic level of team strategy requires all 9 (1 person playing the central defender) to build their mazes of towers in strips around the centre, prolonging enemies' vulnerability to the heavy-hitting towers. It's a very well developed map, with all races having their own benefits, such as cheap maze building, multiple slowing towers or spellcasters. Of course, not knowing what towers need preparing for which wave, e.g. a swarm of air units that need taking down by fast-attack splash towers, can lead to a quick defeat and repeated insulting and name-calling.

I have tried others like Desktop Tower Defence or web-based versions, but the graphical engine of WC3 and the wealth of detail and complexity that can be added is a cut above the rest.

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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby insaneinsane » Tue May 13, 2008 5:44 pm UTC

I also mainly do TD's in WC3. One of my personal all time favourites has to be Zoator, I always loved that one.

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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby skeptical scientist » Tue May 13, 2008 6:26 pm UTC

I've always been a fan of massacre TD, as it's a cool co-op TD with good mazing.
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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby zed0 » Tue May 13, 2008 10:53 pm UTC

SPsnow02 wrote:My favorite is a Mazing type one in Warcraft 3, Gem Td.

For GemTD everyone knows the most awesome configuration is a penis-maze with a damage zone, making every creep go over each slate 12 times.

skeptical scientist wrote:I've always been a fan of massacre TD, as it's a cool co-op TD with good mazing.

I haven't get hte hang of mazing in MassacreTD, I always just make a diagonal line that forces all the creeps through the same area.

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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby The Hyphenator » Sun May 18, 2008 10:59 pm UTC

Element TD ftw. Although I can't say I like the new version. They erased a lot of the slowing towers and the new ones aren't nearly as effective. No more lwfd super-slowing builds. I miss those Ronald clots... :(

Anyone know of a fun solo tower defense game (for Warcraft III, of course)?

And... there goes this topic as a logic puzzle.
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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby Strilanc » Mon May 19, 2008 5:13 am UTC

The Hyphenator wrote:Element TD ftw. Although I can't say I like the new version. They erased a lot of the slowing towers and the new ones aren't nearly as effective. No more lwfd super-slowing builds. I miss those Ronald clots... :(

Anyone know of a fun solo tower defense game (for Warcraft III, of course)?

And... there goes this topic as a logic puzzle.


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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby uzy5o » Mon May 19, 2008 6:45 am UTC

I like Xeno Tactic. It's a game with simple mechanics and yet a complex strategy.

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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby Robin S » Mon May 19, 2008 3:53 pm UTC

Patashu wrote:Onslaught. I need to play this sometime, actually: http://onslaught.playr.co.uk/
Although, I feel Onslaught has already been thoroughly optimized. Check out threads on its forum for advanced laser chaining and stuff like that.
There are also a couple of threads discussing it on these forums: here and here. Happy memories.
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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby The Hyphenator » Tue May 20, 2008 12:46 am UTC

Strilanc wrote:
The Hyphenator wrote:Element TD ftw. Although I can't say I like the new version. They erased a lot of the slowing towers and the new ones aren't nearly as effective. No more lwfd super-slowing builds. I miss those Ronald clots... :(

Anyone know of a fun solo tower defense game (for Warcraft III, of course)?

And... there goes this topic as a logic puzzle.


Power Towers. 8)

Daaamn... that is fun. Thanks. :)
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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby Patashu » Tue May 20, 2008 10:24 am UTC

Strilanc wrote:I really prefer 'mazing' type TDs, where you have terrain to work with and the runners have to hook around your towers. Then your tower placement *really* starts to matter. A good example is Cube Defense, a map in warcraft 3.

'Fixed Track' TDs are relatively easy to analyze in comparison. Find the tower with the best dmg/cost. Build lots of it. Throw in support towers.


How would you make a complex fixed track TD? Lots of status effects and synergies?

(You guys are making me wonder if my WCIII installation is still around. Hmm.) EDIT: And where's a place to download all these maps?

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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby Strilanc » Tue May 20, 2008 4:43 pm UTC

The Hyphenator wrote:
Strilanc wrote:
The Hyphenator wrote:Element TD ftw. Although I can't say I like the new version. They erased a lot of the slowing towers and the new ones aren't nearly as effective. No more lwfd super-slowing builds. I miss those Ronald clots... :(

Anyone know of a fun solo tower defense game (for Warcraft III, of course)?

And... there goes this topic as a logic puzzle.


Power Towers. 8)

Daaamn... that is fun. Thanks. :)


Thank you: I made it.

Patashu wrote:
Strilanc wrote:I really prefer 'mazing' type TDs, where you have terrain to work with and the runners have to hook around your towers. Then your tower placement *really* starts to matter. A good example is Cube Defense, a map in warcraft 3.

'Fixed Track' TDs are relatively easy to analyze in comparison. Find the tower with the best dmg/cost. Build lots of it. Throw in support towers.


How would you make a complex fixed track TD? Lots of status effects and synergies?

(You guys are making me wonder if my WCIII installation is still around. Hmm.) EDIT: And where's a place to download all these maps?


That's correct. You make the towers interact in complex/interesting ways to make up for the lack of pathing interaction with the runners.
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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby Fin Archangel » Wed May 21, 2008 3:32 am UTC

Hmmm...I've never played WC3, but I play SC. Sunken Defence is a solid choice for us, same with Cannon, etc.

Sunken Defense was a really good way to kill time before I got addicted to melee. I recommend New Sunken D, Star Sunken D, and Cannon D Perfection. Cool stuff.
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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby Kaiyas » Thu May 22, 2008 8:08 pm UTC

Onslaught's actually a really good one, given that it's fixed mazing. Then again, the only thing I ever do is mess around with ridiculous numbers of targeters and turrets in sandbox mode :roll:
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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby Patashu » Mon May 26, 2008 11:45 am UTC

Multiplayer Desktop Tower Defense has caught my attention lately. It's like desktop tower defense only the first person to clear a wave sends it for everyone, so surviving waves is secondary to destroying them as fast as possible and the lower your overall time is the better your strategy is. Most of all, it requires you to think about optimizing for low times in the early game as much as optimizing for the end game.

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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby hideki101 » Thu May 29, 2008 3:24 am UTC

the only defense games I've played before today were some starcraft battlenet maps. today, added onslaught to my repertoire, so good times.:)
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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby Ashbash » Thu May 29, 2008 3:06 pm UTC

Onslaught wasted my life.

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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby Fin Archangel » Thu May 29, 2008 7:06 pm UTC

Onslaught...is...hard!

Even after almost filling the map with a lot of combos I still got stuck after level 70 or so ._.
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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby Hörður Mar » Sat May 31, 2008 12:13 am UTC

Finally beat Jungle Hunt TD on Hard! Even killed the mammoth at the end. Thanks for pointing out this great game. I've had lots of fun playing it, revising my tactics over and over. I found it annoying that the resources turn up in random squares so sometimes you get resources and sometimes you get nothing, but I found a way around that.
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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby jestingrabbit » Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:23 am UTC

antbuster is a pretty good game. The key to doing well is choosing to go with one of the synergistic towers. These get better stats as you build more of them. So, for instance, the range of a sniper III tower is increased by 5 every time you build another sniper three tower. Similarly, the quick IV towers get an extra shot and more damage everytime you build another one of them. You also need ice towers to slow the ants down and you need to pick either the hole or the cake to build your stuff around, because you can't build two sets of slowing towers (you need about 3 ice towers to "cover" the hole or the cake and each tower costs more than the last. A lot more.)

I built around the cake, using a bunch of sniper III's and three ice II towers, and scored enough to be in "today's top".

http://www.rstein.org/antbuster/info1v2 ... =Australia

In the end I think I had one slice of cake left as I scored about a third of the points. Its kinda easier to work the strategy when there's only one slice left, you just target the ant with the slice or one with a lot of life left if noone's carrying it at the moment.
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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby Patashu » Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:28 am UTC

Hörður Mar wrote:Finally beat Jungle Hunt TD on Hard! Even killed the mammoth at the end. Thanks for pointing out this great game. I've had lots of fun playing it, revising my tactics over and over. I found it annoying that the resources turn up in random squares so sometimes you get resources and sometimes you get nothing, but I found a way around that.
Spoiler:
I searched for resources in right away when I started the game. If I didn't find a square with maximum resources after spending 4 wise men, I restarted the game.

Nice, I never got to beat it on hard.
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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby Patashu » Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:45 am UTC

OK, have a TD logic puzzle.

I'm playing a TD with towers that are 2x2 and block creeps. The field is w blocks wide (for odd or even w) and I have a finite amount of money to spend on towers that shoot one creep at a time and are all the same.

What setup would
a. hold creeps the longest?
b. do the most total damage? If it depends, what variables influence it and how?

Here are some example setups I whipped up for 10 or w even blocks across. Which of these is the best? Is there a setup that's better?
ImageImageImage

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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby Zabaron » Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:56 am UTC

That really depends on how good the creeps' pathfinding is. If you're playing a WC3 TD, then I would say that the middle one is best, as the creeps tend to bunch up and get stuck pretty regularly. On the other hand, if that's not an issue, and they can move through a 1 block wide gap the same as they move through a larger gap, then the third option seems like the better setup.

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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby Benzene » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:50 am UTC

Strilanc wrote:I really prefer 'mazing' type TDs, where you have terrain to work with and the runners have to hook around your towers. Then your tower placement *really* starts to matter. A good example is Cube Defense, a map in warcraft 3.

'Fixed Track' TDs are relatively easy to analyze in comparison. Find the tower with the best dmg/cost. Build lots of it. Throw in support towers.


There was some TD I used to play very often in WC3 which had paths where mobs would start out at the corners, weave together, apart, then to the goal...horrible description but you could freely place towers in the path of mobs and abuse their pathing.

http://www.kongregate.com/games/preecep ... efense-1-5 is a TD with not much in the way of graphics, but has free placement so you can force mobs to path around. My favorite flash TD.
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Re: Tower Defense games

Postby Patashu » Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:07 pm UTC

So, I've been playing the flash version of Gem TD lately, good stuff. I put up a video of me beating extreme on youtube.

(And I still want to know what that strategy for jungle hunt td on hard is...)


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