Editors

Please compose all posts in Emacs.

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Re: Editors

Postby eviloatmeal » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:54 am UTC

Jplus wrote:It's helpful to think of them as tabstops rather than indentation markers, though.

Well, yeah, because they are. But to me it just makes text hard to read, like when you write on graph paper.

What helps me is an indication of where an indented block starts and stops. Having lines everywhere, both in front of, behind, and through everything, makes it more difficult to determine at a glance.

It's still better than nothing, but not by much - it's a couple of steps above writing code in the address bar of my browser and pressing enter to use it as a search query to save it to my browser history as a form of storage.
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Re: Editors

Postby 4thdwarflord » Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:06 am UTC

phlip wrote:What bugs were you experiencing with vi?

When scrolling(?) up and down, the text stays on screen, where there should be empty space.

This has happened to me on my laptop (running an "xburst" MIPS clone cpu), so there may have been issues with that, and ssh-ing into a raspberry pi

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Re: Editors

Postby shieldforyoureyes » Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:05 pm UTC

4thdwarflord wrote:
phlip wrote:What bugs were you experiencing with vi?

When scrolling(?) up and down, the text stays on screen, where there should be empty space.

This has happened to me on my laptop (running an "xburst" MIPS clone cpu), so there may have been issues with that, and ssh-ing into a raspberry pi


Sounds like an incorrect TERM setting.

I've been using vi since the mid-80s and don't recall ever encountering a bug with it. (Granted, I use vi not a vi clone but still. You can't seriously think an widely used editor that's been around for decades can't update the screen properly?)

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Re: Editors

Postby chasesan » Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:21 am UTC

Probably already mentioned but...
http://xkcd.com/378/

That said, I don't program on *nix anymore these days. But when I did I used nano (well actually originally pico), because it had the smallest learning curve. These days I seem to be using Notepad++ a lot.

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Re: Editors

Postby Wildcard » Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:18 pm UTC

Jplus wrote:@netcrusher88, enk: I give up on Vim specialities, you guys clearly know the program a lot better than I do. But everything you mentioned I can do with TextWrangler, since TextWrangler (and Notepad++) was also designed for programming. Moreover, I know how to do all these things even though I've only used it for a year, since GUI editors don't require you to get your editor PhD first.

I used TextWrangler for a while, really enjoyed it.

Then I found Vim.

I've been using it for less than a year and I know it better than I ever knew TextWrangler. It has more features which are faster and more intuitive to use than TextWrangler, which is prevented from ever reaching truly top speed by its use of non-composable commands. When you learn a new editing command in Vim, you can use it with every motion command you already know. When you learn a new motion command, you can use it with every editing command you already know.

Factually I knew Vim better than a few 10-year users after less than a month. Not to boast or anything. :wink: I rather think that some people just aren't interested much in learning new and better ways to do things (or old and better ways to do things...) when they have found some method that works for them.
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Re: Editors

Postby Derek » Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:26 am UTC

No one ever wrote:vi is intuitive

Powerful maybe, but not intuitive. I don't think discoverability was even a word when vi was created.

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Re: Editors

Postby Wildcard » Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:57 am UTC

Derek wrote:
No one ever wrote:vi is intuitive

Powerful maybe, but not intuitive. I don't think discoverability was even a word when vi was created.

Yes, it's intuitive, once you understand basic syntax. Here is a random smattering of command parts:

d is Delete.
c is Change.
y is Yank (copy).

Then there are motion commands:
e is move to End of word.
$ is move to end of line.
b is move Back to the most recent start of a word.
} is move to end of paragraph.
( is move to start of sentence.

Now, you use the motion commands by themselves to move. Simple enough so far?

Great, now let's say you want to delete to the end of the word. Just type "de".

What if you want to change all text from the cursor position to the end of the sentence? Type "c)" and then type in the replacement text for the text that has just been visually removed.

Can you see how these command parts can be combined? I think that's pretty intuitive; just by reading the 8 commands I listed you now know 15 different commands (3x5).

The real magic of vi is in repeatability, especially using the "." operator. It repeats the last full command—and with a "change" command, that includes the replacement text you added.

So, let's say you want to rename a variable everywhere it occurs in your file. Move your cursor onto one instance of the variable, type "*" (which is a shortcut that searches for the word under your cursor and puts you at the beginning of the next instance of that word), then type "ce" to change to the end of the word. Type the new variable name, press "<Esc>" to exit insert mode, and then press "n" to go to the next instance of the last used search term. Then, you want to rename that variable? Press "." So you can interactively rename every other instance of the variable, verifying each change before you make it (maybe there's an instance in a comment you don't want to change?) by just typing "n.n.n.n.n.n.n.n.n.n." until there are no more instances found.

EDIT: Sorry, the above wasn't very warlike.

By the way, Emacs sucks **l** and is ridiculously non-intuitive. Escape-Meta-Alt-Control-Shift? Please.

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Re: Editors

Postby Flumble » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:40 pm UTC

Wildcard wrote:Yes, it's intuitive, once you understand basic syntax.

There's nothing to understand about random keymaps. It's like the creators of vi put a monkey in front of a typewriter and mapped the output to their list of commands. Also why can't you type a whole word as command or use a selection box? Why not even a basic HUD that shows what your keypresses will do?

When you start a default installation of nano, it shows you right in the bottom bar HOW TO CLOSE THE DAMN THING. Seriously, making closing the program a non-trivial task reeks of malware.
Also, in nano* you can type by typing and you can navigate with your navigation keys. BRILLIANT!


*and every other regular editor

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Re: Editors

Postby Wildcard » Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:20 am UTC

Flumble wrote:Why not even a basic HUD that shows what your keypresses will do?

Try ":set showcmd". Vim only, not vi.

When you start a default installation of nano, it shows you right in the bottom bar HOW TO CLOSE THE DAMN THING. Seriously, making closing the program a non-trivial task reeks of malware.

Oh, I'm sorry, I guess this wasn't explicit enough for you?

Code: Select all

~                                                                     VIM - Vi IMproved
~
~                                                                      version 7.2.411
~                                                                 by Bram Moolenaar et al.
~                                                             Modified by <bugzilla@redhat.com>
~                                                        Vim is open source and freely distributable
~
~                                                               Become a registered Vim user!
~                                                      type  :help register<Enter>   for information
~
~                                                      type  :q<Enter>               to exit
~                                                      type  :help<Enter>  or  <F1>  for on-line help
~                                                      type  :help version7<Enter>   for version info

Oh, I know! We can make a stupid a friendly paperclip assistant to help you! Won't that be cute and entertaining? We'll release it in a new version, called "Flumblesoft's helpful Vim". :twisted:

Also, in nano* you can type by typing and you can navigate with your navigation keys. BRILLIANT!
*and every other regular editor

:roll: I've quoted it before, but it bears mentioning again:

Jon Beltran de Heredia wrote:The point is, with vi, your keyboard becomes a huge specialized text-editing gamepad with almost a hundred buttons.
...
While typing some text, it is a regular keyboard, but when you're back to normal mode you have the best-designed text-editing machine there is, and it shows.


You could probably design a dumbed-down spaceship control system that would let the pilot just use typical automobile controls—brake pedal, gas pedal, steering wheel, and a typical automatic transmission-style gearshift to let the pilot go into Reverse—and he could steer the spaceship as though it were a car driving around on a flat surface. But, come on. Seriously? A spaceship moves in three dimensions. There are MORE things you can do with a spaceship than the steering wheel was designed to handle. If you were limited to using a steering wheel and pedals for your spaceship control system, I hope you would have the sense to at least engineer in an "axis control" so that you could shift the abstracted "flat surface" on which your steering wheel would move you around.

The brilliance of Vim is that, with modal editing, you can use the same buttons that were designed for just one thing—typing—and use them extremely efficiently for actual text EDITING, which is another thing entirely from typing. (And if by "navigating keys" you mean "arrow keys", then I pity you.)

Spoiler:
Yay flame wars! :mrgreen:
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Re: Editors

Postby EvanED » Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:30 am UTC

Wildcard wrote:If you were limited to using a steering wheel and pedals for your spaceship control system, I hope you would have the sense to at least engineer in an "axis control" so that you could shift the abstracted "flat surface" on which your steering wheel would move you around.
You mean, you'd suggest making your space ship modal, so you could use the same control that was designed for just one thing (turning in a single plane) for multiple things? Truly the vim of spaceships!

8-)

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Re: Editors

Postby commodorejohn » Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:42 am UTC

Wildcard wrote:
Also, in nano* you can type by typing and you can navigate with your navigation keys. BRILLIANT!
*and every other regular editor

:roll: I've quoted it before, but it bears mentioning again:

Jon Beltran de Heredia wrote:The point is, with vi, your keyboard becomes a huge specialized text-editing gamepad with almost a hundred buttons.

The point is, without vi, the exact same thing is true (for varying values of "almost a hundred,") but you can just use a modifier key that is not used during normal text entry in combination with the shortcut keys rather than having to manually toggle in and out of text-entry mode and remember which state you're in (which, as far as I've ever seen, vi gives you absolutely no indication of once the status-line output of the last command has been cleared away.)
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Re: Editors

Postby Wildcard » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:18 am UTC

EvanED wrote:
Wildcard wrote:If you were limited to using a steering wheel and pedals for your spaceship control system, I hope you would have the sense to at least engineer in an "axis control" so that you could shift the abstracted "flat surface" on which your steering wheel would move you around.
You mean, you'd suggest making your space ship modal, so you could use the same control that was designed for just one thing (turning in a single plane) for multiple things? Truly the vim of spaceships!

8-)

Well, for a spaceship—no, I wouldn't. Hence my modifying clause "If you were limited..." :)

If you want to design a "text editing control panel" as a piece of hardware that people can plug in (perhaps to a USB port?) be my guest. I don't think you'll earn your investment back though. :wink: Software text editors (all of them, not just vi) are perforce limited to a set of buttons which were actually designed for typing, not actual editing. Hence my analogy.

And, on with the flame wars...I guess in the Emacs of spaceships you would have to hold down buttons on your dashboard while pressing on the pedals (and turning the steering wheel) to escape single-plane navigation? :P

@commodorejohn, I've never seen vi not show --INSERT-- at the bottom of the screen when in insert mode. You can probably turn it off (I don't know how because I've never wanted to), but unless you're doing a lot of stuff to customize your config you will see an indication of which state you're in. When you're not in Normal Mode, of course. Which should be most of the time. (And ":set showcmd" is helpful to show partially typed normal-mode commands.)
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Re: Editors

Postby EvanED » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:38 am UTC

Wildcard wrote:Hence my modifying clause "If you were limited..." :)
What kind of flamewar would we be having if I actually responded honestly to your whole post? Sheesh. :-)

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Re: Editors

Postby commodorejohn » Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:16 am UTC

Wildcard wrote:@commodorejohn, I've never seen vi not show --INSERT-- at the bottom of the screen when in insert mode. You can probably turn it off (I don't know how because I've never wanted to), but unless you're doing a lot of stuff to customize your config you will see an indication of which state you're in. When you're not in Normal Mode, of course. Which should be most of the time. (And ":set showcmd" is helpful to show partially typed normal-mode commands.)

Interesting, I see it without indicators all the time, and I certainly didn't set it up that way. If I were more invested in the argument I'd probably try to find out what, if anything, the "official" default behavior is, but eh.
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Re: Editors

Postby Flumble » Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:46 pm UTC

Wildcard wrote:Oh, I'm sorry, I guess this wasn't explicit enough for you?

Wait, do people actually start a text editor without pointing it to a file descriptor? :shock:
Like you said, you want to edit text, not type it.

Wildcard wrote:Oh, I know! We can make a stupid a friendly paperclip assistant to help you! Won't that be cute and entertaining? We'll release it in a new version, called "Flumblesoft's helpful Vim". :twisted:

No fair! I hate the paperclip as much as the next person.
I bet you really hate the text bar in lynx too. It just takes up space explaining trivial stuff that you have memoized long ago while reading its man pages. Speaking of lynx: have you ever noticed how it accepts both character keys and arrow keys for navigation?

EvanED wrote:
Wildcard wrote:Hence my modifying clause "If you were limited..." :)
What kind of flamewar would we be having if I actually responded honestly to your whole post? Sheesh. :-)

What kind of flamewar ends with self-referentialism instead of attack the fact that the analogy is fundamentally broken: in the proper analogy the spaceship already has millions of buttons. However, Wildcard insists that you should type in (what amounts to) a security code to switch to horizontal movement of the ship and another code to switch to pitch/yaw, instead of using the other keys that are available (and are even labeled with their respective action) because they aren't on the home row.

Wildcard wrote:(And if by "navigating keys" you mean "arrow keys", then I pity you.)

Navigation keys is a superset of arrow keys, including at least home/end/page up/page down and at best combinations with the control key. And in some cases the tab, W, A, S, D, I, J, K, L can join the party too, but most often those interfere with writing text.

Wildcard wrote:
Spoiler:
Yay flame wars! :mrgreen:

Spoiler:
I'm a bit uneasy with some of the claims I made, but since a flame war is declared I better defend them to death. :mrgreen:

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Re: Editors

Postby Dason » Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:52 am UTC

Flumble wrote:Speaking of lynx: have you ever noticed how it accepts both character keys and arrow keys for navigation?


Are you implying vi(m) doesn't allow you to use arrow keys for navigation?
double epsilon = -.0000001;

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Re: Editors

Postby Wildcard » Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:07 am UTC

Flumble wrote:
Wildcard wrote:Oh, I'm sorry, I guess this wasn't explicit enough for you?

Wait, do people actually start a text editor without pointing it to a file descriptor? :shock:
Like you said, you want to edit text, not type it.

Well, I sure as heck wouldn't open up Emacs with a file descriptor for my first usage. Who knows what their equivalent of "ggdGZZ" is. Probably it's "Ctrl-C" or "Alt-F4" or something. Maybe "Ctrl-Alt-Delete". :P

I don't actually use Lynx at all. It was too annoying the first couple times I used it. That was before I was very advanced in Vim, so maybe I'd have a different experience now, but...meh. I work (even on my work computer) with my personal laptop next to me (a Mac) on which I have vagrant VMs running in the terminal (in full screen mode), for easy and immediate access to man pages, and I can use Google Chrome (in quick combination with Alfred) for easy fast web searches without getting annoyed with Windows lack of anything useful. But I digress; that's not about editors....

What kind of flamewar ends with self-referentialism instead of attack the fact that the analogy is fundamentally broken: in the proper analogy the spaceship already has millions of buttons. However, Wildcard insists that you should type in (what amounts to) a security code to switch to horizontal movement of the ship and another code to switch to pitch/yaw, instead of using the other keys that are available (and are even labeled with their respective action) because they aren't on the home row.

IDGI. Oh, wait, maybe I do...based on your "navigating keys" definition. Well, I use a laptop keyboard, not one of those absurd gaming keyboards with hundreds of extra buttons and knobs. So I don't have home key, end key, etc. And even if I did, I sure as heck can't use them without taking my hands off the keyboard and looking for them.

(Mac is actually very nice about letting you type such things; Fn-down for page down, Fn-up for page up, Fn-left for home and Fn-right for end. But still.)

Not to mention that I just scripted (in less than 10 minutes) a fully POSIX-compliant fix for several hundred corrupted files across several servers, using nothing but `ex` (which is the original `vi`). Try THAT with your pretty little IDE.

Spoiler:
Okay, really, it was `ex` along with a POSIX-compliant shell for loop and an `awk` command to check which files needed the fix. But still. It wound up as about three commands only.

...Hey wait a minute, what text editor do you use, Flumble? You've only mentioned one that I see—nano. :lol:

Spoiler:
I'm a bit uneasy with some of the claims I made, but since a flame war is declared I better defend them to death. :mrgreen:
Spoiler:
Yeah, it's good sport. :) I'm actually happy to teach people about vi—more than happy; I'll probably be delivering some classes on it soon—and I don't hold anyone in contempt for not knowing it. I am very enthusiastic about it and hence skeptical of people who dismiss it without actually learning it, though.
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Re: Editors

Postby shieldforyoureyes » Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:22 am UTC

Flumble wrote:
Wildcard wrote:Yes, it's intuitive, once you understand basic syntax.

There's nothing to understand about random keymaps. It's like the creators of vi put a monkey in front of a typewriter and mapped the output to their list of commands.


No, no - that's TECO. Seriously - check out TECO. It's HORRIFYING. TECO makes vi look like notepad.

(Oddly, TECO is the ancestor of emacs.)

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Re: Editors

Postby Wildcard » Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:18 pm UTC

shieldforyoureyes wrote:
Flumble wrote:<snip>


No, no - that's TECO. Seriously - check out TECO. It's HORRIFYING. TECO makes vi look like notepad.

(Oddly, TECO is the ancestor of emacs.)

I don't find that odd at all. :lol:
Spoiler:
So horrifying keybindings are evidently hereditary. :mrgreen:
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Re: Editors

Postby Flumble » Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:08 pm UTC

Dason wrote:
Flumble wrote:Speaking of lynx: have you ever noticed how it accepts both character keys and arrow keys for navigation?


Are you implying vi(m) doesn't allow you to use arrow keys for navigation?

To be honest, what I meant was that lynx allows to use the arrow keys while in, e.g., a text field. Though an interpretation that vi doesn't allow arrow keys at all really favours me.

Wildcard wrote:Well, I use a laptop keyboard, not one of those absurd gaming keyboards with hundreds of extra buttons and knobs. So I don't have home key, end key, etc.

Poor you. My laptop keyboard (and pretty much every laptop and tablet keyboard I ever get my hands on) has all those navigation keys. Though, it's a pity that the layout of laptop keyboards is so arbitrary, so you have to look at the keyboard every time you switch to navigating...

Wildcard wrote:...Hey wait a minute, what text editor do you use, Flumble? You've only mentioned one that I see—nano. :lol:

Notepad++ of course (except for IDE stuff, so Java goes in Eclipse). I'm a rusty windows user. "rusty" as in: not only am I stuck using notepad++ instead of switching to Sublime like the cool kids, but it's still on version 5.9.x. :mrgreen:
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Re: Editors

Postby commodorejohn » Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:37 pm UTC

Wildcard wrote:Oh, wait, maybe I do...based on your "navigating keys" definition. Well, I use a laptop keyboard, not one of those absurd gaming keyboards with hundreds of extra buttons and knobs. So I don't have home key, end key, etc. And even if I did, I sure as heck can't use them without taking my hands off the keyboard and looking for them.

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^ "Absurd gaming keyboard." ^
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Re: Editors

Postby Derek » Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:11 am UTC

commodorejohn wrote:
Wildcard wrote:Oh, wait, maybe I do...based on your "navigating keys" definition. Well, I use a laptop keyboard, not one of those absurd gaming keyboards with hundreds of extra buttons and knobs. So I don't have home key, end key, etc. And even if I did, I sure as heck can't use them without taking my hands off the keyboard and looking for them.

Image
^ "Absurd gaming keyboard." ^

You can tell it's a gaming keyboard because they're removed the Windows key to avoid accidental presses.

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Re: Editors

Postby doogly » Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:03 pm UTC

Flumble wrote: Seriously, making closing the program a non-trivial task reeks of malware.

My favorite is when I try to exit vi using the emacs command, it helpfully reminds me of the vi command (not that you can start typing immediately what you are shown - there's some mode change issue I think? anyway...)

This is just bein' a dick. If you know I want to leave, instead of telling me the right way to ask, please just let me leave.

vi is totally a dick.
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Re: Editors

Postby WibblyWobbly » Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:42 pm UTC

doogly wrote:
Flumble wrote: Seriously, making closing the program a non-trivial task reeks of malware.

My favorite is when I try to exit vi using the emacs command, it helpfully reminds me of the vi command (not that you can start typing immediately what you are shown - there's some mode change issue I think? anyway...)

This is just bein' a dick. If you know I want to leave, instead of telling me the right way to ask, please just let me leave.

vi is totally a dick.

I look at it like this: vi is totally a dick. But it's my dick. And I like to play with it. emacs is someone else's dick. It's OK if you're into it, but I'm not playing with someone else's dick. I experimented with it when I was younger, I just couldn't get used to it.

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Re: Editors

Postby commodorejohn » Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:02 pm UTC

Well that got weird.
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Re: Editors

Postby WibblyWobbly » Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:24 pm UTC

Weirder than the idea that people have arguments about text editors?

If so, I'll take that as a compliment. Thanks!

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Re: Editors

Postby chridd » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:43 am UTC

doogly wrote:
Flumble wrote: Seriously, making closing the program a non-trivial task reeks of malware.

My favorite is when I try to exit vi using the emacs command, it helpfully reminds me of the vi command (not that you can start typing immediately what you are shown - there's some mode change issue I think? anyway...)
It's not actually responding to the emacs exit command (^X ^C); it's responding to just the ^C part, which is often used for exiting, but which Vim uses to cancel certain tasks I think (and it's also shorter, and therefore probably easier to accidentally press, than ^X^C or :q<enter>). (Also ^X does a thing by itself. Oh, and ^C can be used to leave insert mode, so for people who use it for that, having it exit the program wouldn't be a good idea.)

Also, closing the program is easy: just click the X in the corner. Whether through a terminal or an ssh client or through something like gvim or MacVim, pretty much everyone these days is probably going to have some sort of GUI where they can close it if they can't figure out the keyboard way.
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Euphonium
Posts: 98
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:17 pm UTC
Location: Inland Empire

Re: Editors

Postby Euphonium » Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:52 pm UTC

My preferred text editor consists of piping assembly code into as, chosen such that the opcodes output will be, when read byte-by-byte, the ASCII values of the text I wish to output.

I prefer nasm's syntax, but as will accept input on stdin.


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