IDEs

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Hammer
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IDEs

Postby Hammer » Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:44 pm UTC

Do they suck or are they $deity's gift to programmers? Or is only one of them worth using and the rest can go to the great /dev/null in the sky?
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Re: IDEs

Postby Notch » Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:03 pm UTC

Eclipse. That is all.

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Re: IDEs

Postby crazyjimbo » Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:09 pm UTC

Notch wrote:Eclipse. That is all.


I'm not usually one to complain about bloat, but my gosh, Eclipse takes up a lot of my precious RAM. I still use it though. For developing Ruby on Rails* apps, it has some excellent plugins.

* *heads over to the thread to bitch about PHP*

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Re: IDEs

Postby rrwoods » Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:36 pm UTC

Notch wrote:Eclipse. That is all.

Agreed. It almost seems like VS 2005 is trying desparately to catch up (LOOK! A REFACTOR MENU!) -- not that VS 2005 is bad, of course.

Eclipse just makes soooo many things easy that I've always wanted to be easy, like renaming a variable, moving an inner class to its own file; all sorts of stuff.
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Re: IDEs

Postby EvanED » Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:49 pm UTC

rrwoods wrote:
Notch wrote:Eclipse. That is all.

Agreed. It almost seems like VS 2005 is trying desparately to catch up (LOOK! A REFACTOR MENU!) -- not that VS 2005 is bad, of course.

Refactoring C and C++ is a LOT harder than refactoring Java, which is why Eclipse also doesn't have refactoring support for the former.

Eclipse for Java, VS for C++.

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Re: IDEs

Postby rrwoods » Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:01 pm UTC

EvanED wrote:Refactoring C and C++ is a LOT harder than refactoring Java, which is why Eclipse also doesn't have refactoring support for the former.

Eclipse for Java, VS for C++.
Oh yes, I agree, definitely. However VS 2005 is still lacking in other areas as well -- most of them I can't think of right now because I'm at work and don't have a good memory or access to Eclipse. One of them (tiny) is VS 2005's rightclick->Find All References as opposed to Eclipse's rightclick->Show Call Tree (or whatever).
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Re: IDEs

Postby zenten » Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:56 pm UTC

Bah, they just mean that you never bothered to learn how to program.

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Re: IDEs

Postby photosinensis » Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:07 am UTC

IDEs? We don't need no steeenking IDEs. We have vim, bash, gcc, and gdb.

I have seriously said this to my databases/data structures/software engineering professor/faculty advisor, who is enamored with Visual Studio (which is probably your best bet on Windows, but that's another flamewar happening in another thread).
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Re: IDEs

Postby Korandder » Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:23 am UTC

Eclipse. Like many tools, IDEs are very useful if you know how to use them. But when learning you should put your time in at the command line.
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Re: IDEs

Postby davean » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:33 am UTC

Eclipse eats gigs of RAM, uses a lot of CPU time and on a top end system running nothing else other then X11 doesn't have response times that leave me remembering what I was doing.

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Re: IDEs

Postby pieaholicx » Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:01 pm UTC

Mostly Notepad++. I'm currently using it for my ASM class, and for when I work with PHP. For the little Python I have done I've used Eric. For my current project I have to use Weblogic Workshop, which is like Eclipse with Weblogic stuff on top. I think IDEs are nice, and do help with some things, but once they get to the point where they start writing a majority of the code for you I think it's over the top. I do enjoy the ability for Eclipse to put get/set functions into my classes for me though.

EDIT: I also use gVim every now and then. I love the built-in diff tool for it.
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Re: IDEs

Postby notzeb » Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:09 am UTC

I don't have time to learn your fancy Integrated Devolving Environments. I was brought up on vi without backspace.

That said, Kate has syntax highlighting and code-block hiding. It's beautiful. (Does this count as an IDE?)
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Re: IDEs

Postby davean » Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:45 am UTC

notzeb wrote:I don't have time to learn your fancy Integrated Devolving Environments. I was brought up on vi without backspace.

That said, Kate has syntax highlighting and code-block hiding. It's beautiful. (Does this count as an IDE?)


No, the only true IDE is emacs!

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Re: IDEs

Postby photosinensis » Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:04 am UTC

notzeb wrote:I don't have time to learn your fancy Integrated Devolving Environments. I was brought up on vi without backspace.

That said, Kate has syntax highlighting and code-block hiding. It's beautiful. (Does this count as an IDE?)


Kate? Heathen. Old command line junkies use gVim when dropped in an X session.

davean wrote:No, the only true IDE is emacs!


Not fair. Emacs is everything, including the kitchen sink.
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Re: IDEs

Postby davean » Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:58 am UTC

photosinensis wrote:
davean wrote:No, the only true IDE is emacs!


Not fair. Emacs is everything, including the kitchen sink.


It is also the only true kitchen sink.

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Re: IDEs

Postby Amnesiasoft » Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:53 am UTC

I like IDEs, they save me time, usually. And I like Visual Studio better than just about all the others I've seen. Dev-C++ and Code Blocks are nice, but both have problems, and MingW has even more problems when used with Vista.

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Re: IDEs

Postby Notch » Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:06 am UTC

zenten wrote:Bah, they just mean that you never bothered to learn how to program.


There are people who know how to program? I've been doing it for 20 years, and I still just barely know what I'm doing. ;)

A more serious note:
Manually writing boiler plate code or manually refactoring is NOT being a good programmer, it's wasting time. Doing it manually is both error prone and boring as hell.

[edit:]
That said, I still do it manually a lot, mostly because I haven't memorized the keyboard shortcuts yet. ;)

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Re: IDEs

Postby Aglet » Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:43 am UTC

IDEs are nice, but I can't get away from the text manipulation abilities of vi/Emacs/whatever. If there's an IDE with some sort of embedded vi, or with vi commands (h, j, k, l, etc.), I'm in.
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Re: IDEs

Postby EvanED » Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:47 am UTC

Aglet wrote:IDEs are nice, but I can't get away from the text manipulation abilities of vi/Emacs/whatever. If there's an IDE with some sort of embedded vi, or with vi commands (h, j, k, l, etc.), I'm in.

Visual Studio has an Emacs mode, but it sucks. :-p

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Re: IDEs

Postby davean » Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:34 pm UTC

EvanED wrote:
Aglet wrote:IDEs are nice, but I can't get away from the text manipulation abilities of vi/Emacs/whatever. If there's an IDE with some sort of embedded vi, or with vi commands (h, j, k, l, etc.), I'm in.

Visual Studio has an Emacs mode, but it sucks. :-p



Emacs has a visual studio mode, but why would you use visual studio?

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Re: IDEs

Postby EvanED » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:49 pm UTC

Because the code understanding, navigation, and assistance features are noticeably above Emacs?

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Re: IDEs

Postby davean » Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:41 pm UTC

EvanED wrote:Because the code understanding, navigation, and assistance features are noticeably above Emacs?


I think you might not have used emacs.

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Re: IDEs

Postby EvanED » Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:54 pm UTC

davean wrote:I think you might not have used emacs.

I think I have spent way too much time using emacs, and trying to get things like CEDET and such to work so I can have features that I like from VS, and it never worked very well. They are only a moderate replacement, and Semantic has (or, should I say, "had", because I got rid of it because of this) this bad habit of pegging my CPU anytime I wasn't typing. (How's that for weird?)

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Re: IDEs

Postby OfficiallyHaphazard » Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:18 pm UTC

I have started to use emacs, because I must, and I think it is quite useful. However, it is definitely not as intuitive as eclipse for me. Is there a way to rename all instances of a variable in your file? What about auto-completion of whatever you are typing. Navigation is a bit of a pain for me, but ctrl-s and ctrl-down arrow have been helping out.
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Re: IDEs

Postby enk » Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:30 am UTC

Aglet wrote:IDEs are nice, but I can't get away from the text manipulation abilities of vi/Emacs/whatever. If there's an IDE with some sort of embedded vi, or with vi commands (h, j, k, l, etc.), I'm in.


http://www.viemu.com/

Not free, though.
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Re: IDEs

Postby Anpheus » Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:30 am UTC

IDEs are nice for people who develop on their own, but really suck for group collaboration until you get a build server going or some sort of extremely standardized setup (in which case, you're better off going to a build-chain that is editor agnostic, like what most Linux and Unix dev-boxen are.) If you want to create a pet project, have at it in an IDE. It'll make you faster and help you do all of the complicated stuff more easily. Testing in particular is very easy in Visual Studio 2008, I was really surprised by that. But once you start developing large applications you need build servers which are editor agnostic. Everyone can contribute code in their editor of choice, but the code is compiled using one set of tools. Either that tool has to be replicated across every machine or there has to be a machine dedicated to compiling test builds.
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Re: IDEs

Postby Rysto » Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:05 am UTC

Either that tool has to be replicated across every machine

...

It's called "make".

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Re: IDEs

Postby Anpheus » Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:15 am UTC

Which I specifically refer to in Linux and Unix environments as being extremely standard. It doesn't just refer to 'make' though, unless you are under the mistaken impression that 'make' is the compiler. Even the GCC must often be standardized to get some applications to build.

Thanks for playing the misquote game though.
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Re: IDEs

Postby Rysto » Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:37 am UTC

Anpheus wrote:Which I specifically refer to in Linux and Unix environments as being extremely standard. It doesn't just refer to 'make' though, unless you are under the mistaken impression that 'make' is the compiler. Even the GCC must often be standardized to get some applications to build.

And bringing IDEs into the equation changes things how?

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Re: IDEs

Postby Anpheus » Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:58 am UTC

IDEs are frequently accompanied by their own build tools on non *nix platforms. Nearly every major competitor in the IDE arena comes with its own build setup because the tools aren't standardized except on Linux, and even there you will find applications which suggest you build with one version of the GCC or the other. The problem on Linux is the non-standard and changing library requirements (hence the need for package and dependency managers,) the problem on Windows is the non-standard build chain (hence the need to set up build servers if people choose to continue using their own IDEs, or to standardize on a specific version of the IDE, or replicate that IDE's build tools.)

Edit: Before you say "which ones," each Visual Studio comes with a slightly different C/C++/.NET build chain, every Borland enviroment comes with its own, etc. The major 'enterprise' software always comes with its own build chain, open source software on Windows usually specifies a specific version of MinGW.
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Re: IDEs

Postby adlaiff6 » Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:46 pm UTC

vim/screen/gdb

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Re: IDEs

Postby Tei » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:14 pm UTC

Notch wrote:Eclipse. That is all.


For this day and age. is The thing.
Visual Studio is also nice for these Microsoft Borg conglomerate programmers. A very good IDE.

Not that Vi, Emacs aren't not amazing tools. But hare harder to master.

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Re: IDEs

Postby ++$_ » Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:44 am UTC

There are some good IDEs out there, but none of them is as good as emacs, at least as far as I can tell. (I've used VS and Eclipse, plus some other minor ones.) They can be lifesavers on non-*nix platforms, of course, because they tend to be easy to install. This shouldn't be a concern, however.

IMO, IDEs waste time compared with editors like emacs. You have to learn a new IDE if you need a new language, and most (all?) of them force you to use clunky graphical interfaces. (N.B.: All graphical interfaces are clunky unless they can be controlled efficiently from the keyboard only.) Also, in my experience a lot of time is spent switching between windows, which is avoided in emacs. This is especially true while debugging a modular program.

Quick guide to emacs for OfficiallyHaphazard:
Replacing all instances of a variable in a file: M-% (find-replace). See also M-C-% (regex-find-replace), a seriously powerful tool (although it's no Perl).
Auto-completion: It's there somewhere, but I never use it so I don't know how to do it. (Maybe it's only in XEmacs?)
Navigation: As you pointed out, C-s for search forward, C-r for search backward. M-g to goto a known line number. C-x b to change buffers; C-x C-b to see a whole menu of buffers to select from.

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Re: IDEs

Postby Sc4Freak » Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:36 am UTC

Visual Studio. It takes time to learn how to use it, but once you do, it is one of the best (if not the best) IDE for Windows, IMO.

My favourite feature in VS is the debugging. In my C++ program, I can set a breakpoint wherever I want, and the program will pause at that point and the IDE will tell me the status of the program, the values of all the variables, etc. I can even select any variable I want (that's in scope) and modify its value, then continue execution of the program. Or, I can modify some code and recompile the changes and continue execution of the program, using the modified code without having to restart the program.

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Re: IDEs

Postby rabyd_donkey » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:28 pm UTC

EvanED wrote:Refactoring C and C++ is a LOT harder than refactoring Java, which is why Eclipse also doesn't have refactoring support for the former..


I am not sure if someone already responded to this, but a little googling led me to this...

http://r2.ifs.hsr.ch/cdtrefactoring

Looks in the process.

Besides, if I remember right VS 2005 does not have any C++ refactoring to speak of with a plugin as well (VAssistX comes to mind, and that is not free).

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Re: IDEs

Postby Rysto » Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:05 am UTC

EvanED wrote:Refactoring C and C++ is a LOT harder than refactoring Java, which is why Eclipse also doesn't have refactoring support for the former.

Thank you, Ritchie and Stroustrup. I mean, who wants unambiguous syntax in their language?

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Re: IDEs

Postby Sc4Freak » Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:14 am UTC

Rysto wrote:
EvanED wrote:Refactoring C and C++ is a LOT harder than refactoring Java, which is why Eclipse also doesn't have refactoring support for the former.

Thank you, Ritchie and Stroustrup. I mean, who wants unambiguous syntax in their language?

Don't you know Stroustrup did that on purpose?

http://www.ariel.com.au/jokes/An_Interv ... strup.html

:P

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Re: IDEs

Postby EvanED » Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:24 am UTC

rabyd_donkey wrote:
EvanED wrote:Refactoring C and C++ is a LOT harder than refactoring Java, which is why Eclipse also doesn't have refactoring support for the former..

....
Besides, if I remember right VS 2005 does not have any C++ refactoring to speak of with a plugin as well (VAssistX comes to mind, and that is not free).

You will note that I said "also" in that sentence ;-)

Rysto wrote:
EvanED wrote:Refactoring C and C++ is a LOT harder than refactoring Java, which is why Eclipse also doesn't have refactoring support for the former.

Thank you, Ritchie and Stroustrup. I mean, who wants unambiguous syntax in their language?

What, you don't like typename? Sheesh, being picky, aren't we? ;-)

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Re: IDEs

Postby Gunfingers » Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:21 pm UTC

I do mostly Java development, and use NetBeans almost exclusively. My office tried to get me into IntelliJ, but i didn't like it. Never tried Eclipse, but i've heard good things.

One the rare occassion that i develop in C++ i use bloodshed. Not because i like it, but because i'm too lazy to download something else now.

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Re: IDEs

Postby Webzter » Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:47 pm UTC

I mostly stick to C# so VS2005 is where I live. Refactoring in VS2005 is severely broken... but becomes as usable as Eclipse if you install Resharper (a not-free plugin for VS from JetBrains).

I'm pretty lazy around bothering to set anything else up... I use IDLE for Python development and UltraEdit for anything else.


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