KDE4

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Minstrel
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KDE4

Postby Minstrel » Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:02 pm UTC

Anyone else frustrated by KDE4? I installed OpenSUSE 11 on my laptop last night (just felt like trying it, normally I like plain vanilla debian, but that's another war) and went with the new KDE after seeing all the nice shiny screenshots of it. But it seems to have a lot of flair and kewl graphicz and be lacking some basic usability.

Can't drag and drop files from my desktop to Dolphin/Konqueror.

New K menu drives me nuts. I don't care if the old one looks like Windows - I like seeing and scanning the whole tree at once, and not having to back click every time I want to go down a level or more, or scroll down when there are more than a handful of choices.

Panel doesn't seem as configurable as before, and I had to go through the system settings to change the damn clock time - no right click option on the clock itself.

There's plenty more, but it just overall feels like it's shiny and nice but doesn't really do what I wanted as efficiently anymore.

I know it's somewhat customized by SUSE (that's why I love Debian, most everything is vanilla installs) and that KDE4.1 might cure cancer and bring world peace, but some of this stuff just feels like more of an Alpha test than a final release. At least it's only crashed once.

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Sparv
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Re: KDE4

Postby Sparv » Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:11 pm UTC

You can't ask KDE 4.0 to be as advanced as KDE 3.5 . I'll wait a few months before moving to KDE 4. i tried it on a liveCD, I was quite happy about it.
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TheGZeus
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Re: KDE4

Postby TheGZeus » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:20 pm UTC

Sparv wrote:You can't ask KDE 4.0 to be as advanced as KDE 3.5 . I'll wait a few months before moving to KDE 4. i tried it on a liveCD, I was quite happy about it.

Took the words right out of my mouth.
I'd wait for 4.2 if you want a 'normal' desktop. if you want the older menu, install it.

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Minstrel
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Re: KDE4

Postby Minstrel » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:40 pm UTC

Stuff like being able to drag a file from my desktop to my file manager is a basic feature that should be present in a full version release. I don't buy the idea that you should have to wait for 4.x to have stuff like that.

KDE4 shouldn't be as advanced as 3.5??? This isn't a new flavor of ice cream, it's a full version up. I can see how it is more advanced already: having everything on the desktop be a plasmid is a great advance in simplicity for developers and interface. But it's not about advanced or not (just a thought: maybe we're on different semantics here), some pretty obvious things that users should be able to do on any DE, they can't.

As for the menu, if there's a plasmid for the old menu, I'm sure I could (and will) do so. If there's not, I don't know about installing the 3.5 menu on 4.0 - maybe it'll work easily or it could be a huge headache.

I'm going to stick with it, and upgrade when 4.1, 4.2, etc come out. I'm not foolish enough to think a new version won't have issues, but I expected a full version included on a major distro's stable release to have some more normal functionality.

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Sparv
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Re: KDE4

Postby Sparv » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:48 pm UTC

Minstrel wrote:just a thought: maybe we're on different semantics here


Probably :wink: I was thinking "polished" when I wrote advanced. Actually, i'm thinking in French, so I'm probably screwing up again

i'll try again KDE 4 tomorrow on another distro, I'll check if the drag and drop on desktop thing is distro-related. My PC will be formated saturday, I'm going to do some experiments before. Maybe i'll give Kubuntu a chance.
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Rysto
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Re: KDE4

Postby Rysto » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:59 pm UTC

Sparv wrote:i'll try again KDE 4 tomorrow on another distro, I'll check if the drag and drop on desktop thing is distro-related. My PC will be formated saturday, I'm going to do some experiments before. Maybe i'll give Kubuntu a chance.

The latest Kubuntu release comes with KDE 3.5. I know, because I just installed Kubuntu a couple of weeks ago.

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Berengal
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Re: KDE4

Postby Berengal » Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:05 pm UTC

Using the ftp installer (or whatever it's called. The one Unetbootin installs for you) you get the choice between KDE 3.5 and KDE 4 (and GNOME, XFCE, whathaveyou. You can choose as many of those as you want to too).
I guess KDE 4 isn't stable enough for an "official" (cd) release, but it is for "build your own" ubuntus.
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Sparv
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Re: KDE4

Postby Sparv » Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:13 pm UTC

Rysto wrote:
Sparv wrote:i'll try again KDE 4 tomorrow on another distro, I'll check if the drag and drop on desktop thing is distro-related. My PC will be formated saturday, I'm going to do some experiments before. Maybe i'll give Kubuntu a chance.

The latest Kubuntu release comes with KDE 3.5. I know, because I just installed Kubuntu a couple of weeks ago.


Here is a kubuntu +KDE4 CD. Last time I tried Kubuntu, it was on another hardware, eight month ago, with an ATI x1950GT card on an AGP port... The thing didn't even understand that I had a graphic card. Actually, even on win, all the drivers after the 2007.9 didn't work. Mandriva worked well, that's why Kubuntu won't be my first try.

AMD's drivers are now far better, and I use an HD3870 on a PCI-E port, so it will certainly work better.
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TheGZeus
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Re: KDE4

Postby TheGZeus » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:26 pm UTC

Minstrel wrote:Stuff like being able to drag a file from my desktop to my file manager is a basic feature that should be present in a full version release. I don't buy the idea that you should have to wait for 4.x to have stuff like that.

KDE4 shouldn't be as advanced as 3.5??? This isn't a new flavor of ice cream, it's a full version up. I can see how it is more advanced already: having everything on the desktop be a plasmid is a great advance in simplicity for developers and interface. But it's not about advanced or not (just a thought: maybe we're on different semantics here), some pretty obvious things that users should be able to do on any DE, they can't.

As for the menu, if there's a plasmid for the old menu, I'm sure I could (and will) do so. If there's not, I don't know about installing the 3.5 menu on 4.0 - maybe it'll work easily or it could be a huge headache.

I'm going to stick with it, and upgrade when 4.1, 4.2, etc come out. I'm not foolish enough to think a new version won't have issues, but I expected a full version included on a major distro's stable release to have some more normal functionality.

You... didn't read about it at all before you installed, did you?

Xbehave
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Re: KDE4

Postby Xbehave » Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:29 am UTC

Minstrel wrote:Stuff like being able to drag a file from my desktop to my file manager is a basic feature that should be present in a full version release. I don't buy the idea that you should have to wait for 4.x to have stuff like that.

Your write the software, you write the release cycle!

KDE4 shouldn't be as advanced as 3.5???

Have you looked at them under the hood, from what ive read, kde3 was rellying on a bunch of clever hacks to kio, while kde4 is designed with your network & peripherals in mind.

Can't drag and drop files from my desktop to Dolphin/Konqueror.

They're really pushing the boat with the desktop redesign, by 4.2 you'll be able to have old desktops back, and by 4.3 there will be some really cool stuff about for it.

New K menu drives me nuts. I don't care if the old one looks like Windows ...blah rant blah

You can always add the old style (well you can in kubuntu), but i thought that suse already used vista style menus (even for kde3).

Panel doesn't seem as configurable as before, and I had to go through the system settings to change the damn clock time - no right click option on the clock itself.

It is as configurable, hell its more so ( there was a nice blog post by a kde developer explaining how 4.3 will feature auto-resizing panels (or not if you don't want them)*) but the interface isnt there yet

*unfortunatly thanks to people trolling his blog, none of his posts are available anymore :(. Basically if you want a fully functional desktop wait until 4.2, but because suse included it as default too many people have swarmed on his blog with useless comments like "Here's a real suggestion: give us back our Desktops!" and so what was previously a very interesting blog to read, by somebody who explained a lot of the stuff to do with the desktop "problem", is now unavailable because the 'marketers' pushed it to the end users far too soon

4.0 -well its a .0 release of a DE (this isnt like a normal peice of software youd be better of imagening this as a distro or an OS)
meaning its stable (well ish, i mean nobodies tested it yet)
most of the underlying framework is fully functional for you to develop on/for

4.1-again consider that were talking bout a DE, a .1 release isnt going to be a finished product
most of the simple apps are finished
the more advanced parts of the framework are now done too (fully functional for developers)

4.2 -almost fully functional for end users
fairly stable (baring in mind that this is the 1st majorly used release)

4.3 - the point where its a pretty much finished product
4.4 - finished products + feedback based released
4.5 - ???

personally i was going to hold of until 4.3 as im in no major rush to leave 3.5 but it looks like ubuntu are looking to get 4.2 into 8.10.
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Minstrel
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Re: KDE4

Postby Minstrel » Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:54 pm UTC

Xbehave wrote:
Minstrel wrote:Stuff like being able to drag a file from my desktop to my file manager is a basic feature that should be present in a full version release. I don't buy the idea that you should have to wait for 4.x to have stuff like that.

Your write the software, you write the release cycle!


That's dismissive. Following that logic, no one could ever comment in a negative way on anything they didn't themselves help create. And given the topic of the forum, I think negative comments are expected.

Xbehave wrote:
KDE4 shouldn't be as advanced as 3.5???

Have you looked at them under the hood, from what ive read, kde3 was rellying on a bunch of clever hacks to kio, while kde4 is designed with your network & peripherals in mind.


I think you misread or didn't fully read what I said. I was questioning sparv's comment that I shouldn't expect 4.0 to be as advanced as 3.5. In the very next sentences I stated that it should, and in fact is more advanced than 3.5. It turned out we weren't speaking of the same things anyway: he really meant what I would think of as more 'polished'.

Xbehave wrote:
Can't drag and drop files from my desktop to Dolphin/Konqueror.

They're really pushing the boat with the desktop redesign, by 4.2 you'll be able to have old desktops back, and by 4.3 there will be some really cool stuff about for it.


I don't doubt it. I think they were doing the brand a disservice by not including such functionality into the initial release. Like it or not, there is a lot of expectation for that sort of thing in the non-beta release.

Xbehave wrote:
New K menu drives me nuts. I don't care if the old one looks like Windows ...blah rant blah

You can always add the old style (well you can in kubuntu), but i thought that suse already used vista style menus (even for kde3).


I've only used vista briefly, so I'm not entirely sure of what you speak here, but I did install the old style menus last night. I still think the new style was a poor choice for the default.

Incidentally, I ran into another little frustration: when I clicked the floating pop out widget installer thingamadoodle in the upper right to install the old menu widget, it appeared on the desktop. No problem, I'll just drag it to my panel. But no can do. It just floats under the panel. Had to right click the panel, install widget, appeared over by my clock, couldn't just left click and drag it across the panel, had to right click, choose 'start move', move it, right click again and click 'stop move'.

I realize you read this as 'blah, rant, blah', but it's simple little things as mentioned before that should just work the intuitive way.

Xbehave wrote:
Panel doesn't seem as configurable as before, and I had to go through the system settings to change the damn clock time - no right click option on the clock itself.

It is as configurable, hell its more so ( there was a nice blog post by a kde developer explaining how 4.3 will feature auto-resizing panels (or not if you don't want them)*) but the interface isnt there yet


I'll take your word for it. That's one thing I could see as a 'polish' issue rather than obvious DE features (although the clock thing I'd still say should be there at this point). If it is indeed more configurable, that'll be great. That's why I like KDE.

I'll also take your word on the release cycle. My point isn't that it's hopelessly lost. As I said before, it's that a full non-beta release lacking some really normal features of a DE does a disservice to the brand, which I happen to like the most of any of the DE's out there (although if I had more time on my hands to tinker, I think I'd really like XFCE).

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Minstrel
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Re: KDE4

Postby Minstrel » Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:11 pm UTC

TheGZeus wrote:You... didn't read about it at all before you installed, did you?


I read a few articles/reviews back in the beta that were pretty glowing and had heard good things from a co-worker. It wasn't one of those 'need to research it to death' issues. /home's on a separate partition as it should be, so even if I had to blow the whole OS away it's no big deal.

I did know the default menu wasn't going to be my cup of tea, but I wasn't expecting it to be as ungainly to use as it turned out to be.

Shocker for some: I still really like it. The behind the scenes stuff to unite everything on the desktop is terrific and the plasmids that are out so far are sweet. The fact that it has the possibility to be ported to Windows/Mac is great. One step closer to open source world domination. Even with all the eye candy, it seems just about as snappy running on my celeron laptop with 384 megs ram as kde 3.5 does on my athlon 64 fx with a gig of ram. The default icons not looking cartoonish is good: couldn't stand those. I hear multimedia is better, but I haven't done much with it yet. All the behind the scenes stuff to make 3rd party development easier should be beneficial for everyone.

I am also disappointed. I see no contradiction there.

And hell, it is "religious wars" so I figured the negatives would stir the pot up more.

Don't double post; edit your previous post with whatever you were going to post in the second one.

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Re: KDE4

Postby Sparv » Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:43 pm UTC

Update!

I tried KDE4 with an OpenSuse 11 CD. The "drag from dolphin and drop on desktop" thing WORKS.
EDIT: I forget to try the other way: from desktop to dolphin.

BUT I never managed to get a working network. When I tried to ping something, I got "network unatteignable". Great!
Then began the fun part...
I installed the distro, and tried again to get the network to work. It failed miserabily, firstly because it had the same error, and moreover, when I tried to change the network configuration, the shitty GUI didn't even save the changes: what I understood from the error message was that it tried to access an internet url when it wanted to save and failed. Great! i can't set my network because my network isn't set!
I'm probably not understanding the error, but I'm fed up.
So I nearly installed OpenSuse 10.3 from an older DVD. Obviously the DVD didn't work, there are no visible scratches, but it there are reading errors.
I then moved on an old Kubuntu CD, which worked, with the network.

I WANT OpenSuse.
Thanks god there is k3b, so I burned a new DVD with OpenSuse 10.3 (i'm glad I kept the ISO on the hard disk).
Obviously, the burning failed: another DVD trashed.
Right now, I'm trining again to burn an OpenSuse, at a lower speed.

EDIT: failure. Again. I'll stick to Kubuntu... If i manage to get the package manager working.

I'm now on the help desk, if somebody feels like giving a hand... i'm quite depressed. I'm trying to get Kubuntu to work.
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TheGZeus
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Re: KDE4

Postby TheGZeus » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:27 pm UTC

Minstrel wrote:
TheGZeus wrote:You... didn't read about it at all before you installed, did you?


Don't double post; edit your previous post with whatever you were going to post in the second one.

I did?
Shit, didn't mean to or notice...
*scratches head, cleans glasses*

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Minstrel
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Re: KDE4

Postby Minstrel » Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:16 pm UTC

Sparv wrote:Update!
I tried KDE4 with an OpenSuse 11 CD. The "drag from dolphin and drop on desktop" thing WORKS.
EDIT: I forget to try the other way: from desktop to dolphin.


Yeah it's the other way around that it doesn't work...

Sparv wrote:BUT I never managed to get a working network. When I tried to ping something, I got "network unatteignable". Great!
Then began the fun part...


Yuck, wow. For what it's worth OpenSUSE 11 didn't give me any issues with networking, aside from my wireless card not working without using b43-fwcutter, which I expected (although it took me a few hours and a lot of banging my head on the wall to remember what I had to do in 10.3 to make it work and do it again). EDIT: and I can't get knetworkmanager (might not have the right name) to just autoconnect to my home router, have to click it on each bootup, but that's minor too.

TheGZeus wrote:I did?
Shit, didn't mean to or notice...
*scratches head, cleans glasses*


The red was from a mod editing my post - I think he/she means me, because I responded to two people's comments in two consecutive posts, instead of one after another in the same post. I always think of that as more polite and easier to read/follow, but to each board its own I suppose.

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Sparv
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Re: KDE4

Postby Sparv » Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:28 pm UTC

Minstrel wrote:Yuck, wow. For what it's worth OpenSUSE 11 didn't give me any issues with networking, aside from my wireless card not working without using b43-fwcutter, which I expected (although it took me a few hours and a lot of banging my head on the wall to remember what I had to do in 10.3 to make it work and do it again). EDIT: and I can't get knetworkmanager (might not have the right name) to just autoconnect to my home router, have to click it on each bootup, but that's minor too.


I droped Suse, I finally got a Kubuntu 8.04 working. 6 hours after my first try...
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qbg
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Re: KDE4

Postby qbg » Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:27 pm UTC

Xbehave wrote:4.0 -well its a .0 release of a DE (this isnt like a normal peice of software youd be better of imagening this as a distro or an OS)
meaning its stable (well ish, i mean nobodies tested it yet)
most of the underlying framework is fully functional for you to develop on/for

4.1-again consider that were talking bout a DE, a .1 release isnt going to be a finished product
most of the simple apps are finished
the more advanced parts of the framework are now done too (fully functional for developers)

4.2 -almost fully functional for end users
fairly stable (baring in mind that this is the 1st majorly used release)

4.3 - the point where its a pretty much finished product
4.4 - finished products + feedback based released
4.5 - ???

Uh, I don't think the release cycle is going to progress that slow...

ndansmith
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Re: KDE4

Postby ndansmith » Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:15 pm UTC

KDE really stretched the common definition of "stable release" for 4.0. Honestly, 4.0.0 was really alpha level stuff. I think it would have been better if they simply delayed the initial release and kept coming out with betas before going 4.0. Sure, they write the release cycle, but a lot of users who were excited about 4.0 (ready to jump ship from Gnome myself) went away disappointed. So when 4.1 hits, am I going to believe them when they say "its really stable this time, we promise" ?

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OOPMan
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Re: KDE4

Postby OOPMan » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:17 am UTC

KDE 4.0 was a bit of a letdown...

I think the 4.5 === End Result theory isn't out of line...
Image

Image

qbg
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Re: KDE4

Postby qbg » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:13 am UTC

4.1 is out and I'm running its Kubuntu packages right now.

I must say that I am really pleased so far; 4.1 has progressed far and seems to be quite usable.

On the downside, my laptop volume keys don't work, and I had to force my fonts DPI to make them the size I want, and using XVideo when desktop effects were enabled froze X.

All in all, 4.1 seems to be good enough to the point where I will probably be at least mixing it with KDE 3.5.9 for day-to-day use.

sakeniwefu
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Re: KDE4

Postby sakeniwefu » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:56 am UTC

I have just tried out the updated OpenSUSE live CD. I must say I am completely underwhelmed by the KDE4 experience.
The only widget that somehow appeals to me is the folderview, but the implementation details of the plasmoids from the user point of view are fugly.
But as I know some people do really like widgets I will attack the naked king. X is not resolution independent. Neither is KDE4 or QT4. Nor the icons they use.
I don't really care about resolution dependence when I am using dwm but when you play with zooms, resizes and rotations to amaze people you better have your "amazing underlying technology" done right.
KDE4 is a party of pixelated icons that looks like an old SNES "3D" game. I didn't even have to look for it specifically. Let's see if we can resize the folderview to fill the whole desktop. Uh, it is completely counterintuitive, hey wait! wtf those ugly pixelations! Hey I can rotate widgets! Oh, now I have a nice pixelated chameleon looking at the useless toy calculator. I can zoom out to try to find out where my widgets floated to! More pixelation! Is that even legal!
Naked checkmate.
There is no incremental upgrade that can save KDE4 from being yet another X window manager. Try harder next time.

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OOPMan
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Re: KDE4

Postby OOPMan » Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:09 pm UTC

Finally got 4.1 up and running. It is a lot better.
Image

Image

qbg
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Re: KDE4

Postby qbg » Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:41 pm UTC

sakeniwefu wrote:KDE4 is a party of pixelated icons that looks like an old SNES "3D" game. I didn't even have to look for it specifically. Let's see if we can resize the folderview to fill the whole desktop. Uh, it is completely counterintuitive, hey wait! wtf those ugly pixelations! Hey I can rotate widgets! Oh, now I have a nice pixelated chameleon looking at the useless toy calculator. I can zoom out to try to find out where my widgets floated to! More pixelation! Is that even legal!

The only time I see pixelation is when I'm resizing a widget, but once the widget is resized it is no longer pixelated...


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