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Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:22 am UTC
by achilleas.k
It's been done a million times on a million forums, so it has to be done here too.
I belong to the minority of always inverting the mouse Y-axis.
To me, pushing the mouse forward means I have to look down, pulling it back, towards you must make the the camera look up. That's what makes sense to me.

Some people accept it as a matter of opinion, others think the logic is WRONG and that people who do it aren't human.

As a side-note however, I present you the following quote from Wikipedia:
After id Software's Doom, the game that popularized FPS games but which did not support vertical aiming with a mouse (the y-axis served for forward/backward movement), competitor 3D Realms' Duke Nukem 3D became one of the first games that supported using the mouse to aim up and down. It and other games using the Build engine had an option to invert the Y-axis. The "invert" feature actually made the mouse behave in a manner that users now regard as non-inverted (by default, moving mouse forward resulted in looking down). Soon after, id Software released Quake, which introduced the invert feature as users now know it. Other games using the Quake engine have come on the market following this standard, likely due to the overall popularity of Quake.


I guess since Duke Nukem 3D was one of the first FPS games I played more than 10 times through and since I used the mouse to aim on occasion (when you had to shoot certain objects that required careful aim), it might be the reason I use the mouse the way I do.

So how many inverters do we have here?

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:32 am UTC
by masher
I invert.

It's the same as acft; push forward, plane go down. Pull back, plane go up.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:32 am UTC
by phlip
I used to always invert the Y axis, both for mouselook and also on consoles (on the rare occasion I had access to an FPS on a console)... but then I spent a few years not playing any FPSes, and when I came back to them, not-inverted felt more better, in both cases. I haven't played a flight sim in years (well, unless Descent counts, I haven't played a flight sim ever), I'm not sure which direction would feel more right if I was to pick one up right now, but I think it'd still be inverted. Almost certainly inverted if I was playing with a gamepad, which I probably would.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:35 am UTC
by Cynical Idealist
I picked "never invert", since the only one I'd invert for is a flight sim, and I have a perfectly good joystick if I want to play one of those.

Other than that, my mouse behaves as it does outside of games: pushing forward makes the cursor go up, except that in an FPS the cursor is locked in the center of the screen so the view goes up also.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:08 am UTC
by Alexander The 1st
Inversion.

I deliberately, if I'm playing a game someone else has started [Or using their profile], immediately go to the options menu, look for inverted-y-axis, and make it yes.

I used to play SU-27 and Cyberia/Descent [Freeware], and Descent 3, but I think Halo for PC solidified it; that is, that the Banshee flying is akin to SU-27.

The only game I haven't played alot and happens to be the exception to prove the rule is Goldeneye 007; that's in part because the C-arrows are indicative of the direction, and it's not the flat-arrow deal.

I think what's part of why I do this, beyond practise, is the idea that it's like leaning your back - when you lean it forwards, you look down; when you lean backwards, you look up. Same with the neck and head tilting. It's just a natural mapping.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:44 am UTC
by 00Davo
Non-inverted.

I play a lot of Garry's Mod. When you're carrying an object in GMod, moving the mouse up should send the object up. So I play GMod non-inverted, and thus everything else also non-inverted. Although I've never really played a flight sim, where it really makes a difference.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:09 pm UTC
by Dobblesworth
Certainly for the last several years on PC first person items I've gone for non-inverted aim. I think I may have gone with inverse back in the mists of time when I started out on UT classic, but can't identify when I phased out.
Console FPS' I've used frequently - Metroid Prime 1 & 2, 007 Nightfire on the Gamecube - those I'm pretty sure I stuck with inverse aim.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:38 pm UTC
by cerbie
Hell no.

For flying games, avoid mice. Inverse aim is not needed. The direction you are wanting to go is approximately normal to the stick itself, in the direction you are pushing. With a mouse...no, no, no.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:37 pm UTC
by achilleas.k
The results are strikingly balanced. Usually the non-inverters are 3-4 times more than the inverters. Even if we count the flight-only as non-inverters it's still not that bad. Then again, our sample isn't really that big.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:11 pm UTC
by Spade
I don't invert. It just seems backwards to me. When I was playing Jack and Daxter on PS2 I had to play inverted and that really messed me up.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:47 pm UTC
by phlip
Related question: in third-person games, should moving the mouse/stick left (a) look left, or (b) move the camera left (thus looking right)?

When I was playing through Psychonauts, I had to keep changing this one way or the other, 'cause neither way really felt right...

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:50 am UTC
by achilleas.k
Though I can understand the option for left-right being inverted as well, I never played that way. The mouse movement can be thought of as going forward-back thus the translation to up-down having two ways to think about it. The left right-movement is a bit clearer though.
The left right thing might fit a similar logic (now that I think about it a bit more) if you imagine that you're controlling a camera that is centred on the character (kinda like the target lock function in Ocarina of Time, where by moving right you made the camera rotate left).

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:12 am UTC
by Xanthir
Inverted Y axis is the only way to play. All other methods are false.

X-axis… Man, I dunno. I always end up confusing myself, just because games are so inconsistent on whether left means look left or move camera left. I'm gonna go with "whatever the default was in Metal Gear Solid 3", because I know I firmly taught myself which way it worked for that game (being confused about it kept getting me killed).

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:02 am UTC
by Wyvern
Invert Nothing. It's easier that way. I can understand how people can live with inverting it on a console, with the joysticks and all, but with Mice, oh god no. As for that camera, the same logic applies:

If I move the mouse left, I want to look left, and if I move the mouse up, I want to look up. Deciding that I'm going to be moving my point of view in a spherical fashion around some arbitrary axis (and on only one axis, even! euuggghh) just makes things more complicated than they need to be.

No inversion!

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:16 am UTC
by achilleas.k
Wyvern wrote:Invert Nothing. It's easier that way. I can understand how people can live with inverting it on a console, with the joysticks and all, but with Mice, oh god no. As for that camera, the same logic applies:

If I move the mouse left, I want to look left, and if I move the mouse up, I want to look up. Deciding that I'm going to be moving my point of view in a spherical fashion around some arbitrary axis (and on only one axis, even! euuggghh) just makes things more complicated than they need to be.

No inversion!

Just to be clear, we don't do it because we're weirdos and want to do it the hard way, or we set it that way on principle because we're on a crusade to rid the world of illogical practices. It's just how our hand reacts to a the thought of "look up!". It's like the sensitivity of the mouse in any game. You don't force yourself to get used to high or low sensitivity, you set it to the value that makes you feel comfortable and best fits your unconscious (subconscious? Maybe "reflex" would make more sense) reaction. Some people feel it's best to do a 360 turn by moving the mouse 1 inch to the side, others feel it's appropriate to run out of space and lift the mouse to make a full turn.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:29 am UTC
by Wyvern
achilleas.k wrote:
Wyvern wrote:Invert Nothing. It's easier that way. I can understand how people can live with inverting it on a console, with the joysticks and all, but with Mice, oh god no. As for that camera, the same logic applies:

If I move the mouse left, I want to look left, and if I move the mouse up, I want to look up. Deciding that I'm going to be moving my point of view in a spherical fashion around some arbitrary axis (and on only one axis, even! euuggghh) just makes things more complicated than they need to be.

No inversion!

Just to be clear, we don't do it because we're weirdos and want to do it the hard way, or we set it that way on principle because we're on a crusade to rid the world of illogical practices. It's just how our hand reacts to a the thought of "look up!". It's like the sensitivity of the mouse in any game. You don't force yourself to get used to high or low sensitivity, you set it to the value that makes you feel comfortable and best fits your unconscious (subconscious? Maybe "reflex" would make more sense) reaction. Some people feel it's best to do a 360 turn by moving the mouse 1 inch to the side, others feel it's appropriate to run out of space and lift the mouse to make a full turn.


Oh, I do know, I played FPS's with it inverted quite a bit years back, but then after quite the hiatus I switched, and I ended up playing better than I ever had before. I just seem to work better that way. It just frustrates me when developers can't make up their minds and come up with some standard. (especially about the camera moving left/right in 3rd person games) And I think everyone agrees that it's even worse when games don't give you the option to change it at all x.x

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:40 am UTC
by achilleas.k
Not having the option is a BITCH! I don't really mind it when the default is the other way around, though I haven't seen that happen in a while.
While on the subject of mouse options, I also can't understand why games of the year 2009 still fail to detect more than 3 mouse buttons. I was probably the last gamer on earth to get a 5 button mouse and I got my first one 2-3 years ago. It's not that it's impossible to assign keys to my buttons for in-game support, it's just one of those things that some devs don't really pay attention to and should be there by default by now.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:41 am UTC
by J the Ninja
I cut my gaming teeth on flight sims when I was younger. Pentium II box with a joystick! I beat it into my head there that you pull back to look up, and push forward to look down. I have never been able to play any kind of game non-inverted since. Not with a gamepad, not with a full joystick, not even with a mouse. Non-inverted just feels counter-intuitive for me. I can remember when I started playing flight sims I was the opposite, but...I guess you are impressionable at that age, because it seems I managed to completely and permanently reverse my instinct on that one.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:39 am UTC
by Sana
I don't play PC games, but in every console game I require Y-axis inversion.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:03 am UTC
by BlackSails
I use inversion on the console, but not on the PC.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:08 am UTC
by Robstickle
For me up is up and down is down. Anything else is just crazy :P

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:18 pm UTC
by Xanthir
Robstickle wrote:For me up is up and down is down. Anything else is just crazy :P

Hey, up is up and down is down for me as well. It's just up/down for the camera, rather than for the sight-direction arrow coming out the front of my head.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:30 am UTC
by Cynical Idealist
Xanthir wrote:
Robstickle wrote:For me up is up and down is down. Anything else is just crazy :P

Hey, up is up and down is down for me as well. It's just up/down for the camera, rather than for the sight-direction arrow coming out the front of my head.

Does that hold for first-person games also?

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:06 am UTC
by Xanthir
No, because there the camera *is* my head.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:19 pm UTC
by You, sir, name?
Xanthir wrote:Inverted Y axis is the only way to play. All other methods are false.


You seem to have inverted your statement. I take it this is to poke fun at people who use inverted Y-axis.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:10 pm UTC
by Xanthir
Nah, I just wasn't thinking of all possibilities at the time. I've been playing several third-person games recently, so the camera-as-a-thing-floating-outside-of-you was heavy in my thinking.

Camera outside of you = invert both axes
Camera in your head = don't invert either axis

All other methods are false.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:17 pm UTC
by headprogrammingczar
Real men play with their monitor upside-down.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:54 pm UTC
by Dr. Willpower
Left thumb inverted, right thumb default.

I got this from Mario and Zelda 64 (the joystick was left-handed). Can't play it any other way.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:43 pm UTC
by Isaac356
I casted a vote as inverted, but in actuality, I'm only inverted on a console. On the PC, I use normal controls.

Isn't that funny:
Halo 3: Inverted
Half-Life 2: Non-Inverted

Not sure why, but that joystick seems to make a difference...

Also, I don't really play any flight simulators, but I seem to remember that old console FPSs (like for PS One) were inverted only. Maybe that's how I got onto it.

Semi-Related: (Halo 3) Bumper Jumper FTW.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:47 pm UTC
by Snowflake
Only for piloting or driving vehicles, optional for in-vehicle free-look, but not manned guns (e.g. tailgunner or tank gunner).

People who FPS with inverted y-axis are weird.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:17 pm UTC
by Pinky's Brain
Inverted y-axis.

As for rationalization ... to look down at large angles I move my head forward, to look up at large angles I move my head backward. (Started out playing flight sims though, so that might be a bigger contributor, but still I think the rationalization has some merit.)

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:40 am UTC
by dohbaby
ROFL. Pointless to say which is right or wrong... has to do with interpretation, none is more or less natural as such. Although on a personal sidenote, non-inverted is just weird [people].

Inverted obviously. Either way, Any game with viewing options should always keep both as an option. If they can't do that in this day an age, I wanna pjuke in their f**** poor talentless faces ^^

To give an example, in Bulgaria people nod their head to say no and shake it say yes.... so 'inverted' from most other countries... it's about what we get grown used to. Now, I also noticed with many of mybulgarian friends, they due to this, have inverted x-axis.

But not just developers of games, to be honest, if it's a big deal on the gfx engine programming then just leave it at whatever they feel for (I wouldn't really give a s***), It is MOUSE DRIVER DEVS which should by now lol , them gits after all these years, with fancy buttons and scrolls now, should ALWAYS have a hotkey /option for inverting both axis or one of the two indepedently. If that is a problem for them I gotta say L O L.

More times than not , I feel the 'professional world' is just so full of amateurs.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:01 pm UTC
by Rizzo
I'm one of the flight simulation only inverted gamers. For FPS I have to do up is up and down is down, otherwise I get confused. It's probably because I've done it for so long. However, I can only do flight sims with an inverted axis. Otherwise, it just won't make sense to me. Maybe it's because I fly model airplanes and my dad was a pilot.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:48 am UTC
by LuNatic
Inverted on a joystick, normal on mouse/thumbstick/anything else. I think it's because I control a joystick with my wrist, but the other controls I tend to rely on different muscles.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:28 am UTC
by Axidos
I've always inverted, ever since halfway through my Halo days. Don't ask me how, but inverting my Y-axis resulted in a sudden leap in my performance.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:52 am UTC
by achilleas.k
Sidenote: Scroll down must be "next weapon/spell/item/whatev" while scroll up must be "previous".
The default is usually the other way around. I just always associate down with next and up with previous because that's the usual reading direction. Can't understand the inverse. :?

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:39 pm UTC
by headprogrammingczar
I usually use scroll down for quick-switch, then use scroll up for zooming. I put the 'cycle through inventory' buttons at mouse4 and 5.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:02 am UTC
by illiriks
I only invert on flight sims; for which I use a joystick. I don't think I ever inverted...

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:23 am UTC
by bakadeshi
I've gotten used to both, but prefer inverting over not, if only to watch guests who play on my console accounts die horrible tragic deaths due to them not knowing how to look up/down properly :).

Cheap thrills, I know.

Re: Gamers: The inverted Y-axis poll

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:33 am UTC
by WarDaft
Never invert.

If there's something interesting up and to the left, I would move my mouse up and to the left to click on it. Therefore, the mouse should go up and to the left to shoot it as well.