Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Please compose all posts in Emacs.

Moderators: phlip, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Copper Bezel
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:35 am UTC
Location: Web exclusive!

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby Copper Bezel » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:03 pm UTC

Glass effects are gone in the final release version, aside from maybe the taskbar, so that's something. Less clashy.

I think the shut down process is designed more for tablets than anything. Intel is doing some neat things with upcoming chips to allow for more power states, like a phone's.

And since I have to say it in every post, I really, really wish I didn't hate this OS, because I already love it, too.
So much depends upon a red wheel barrow (>= XXII) but it is not going to be installed.

she / her / her

elasto
Posts: 3102
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 1:53 am UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby elasto » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:54 pm UTC

I don't like or hate W8 vs W7. To me, there's a few things W8 does in a slightly less annoying way, and a few things slightly more. But after learning a few keyboard shortcuts (like Windows-I to shutdown) nothing is really terribly harder to do than before, and a few things are much easier. Obviously the average user isn't going to be able to cope with a load of keyboard shortcuts, though.

For me they are much of a muchness. For a desktop W7 is probably slightly better suited imo but I'd be perfectly happy with either - they are both a great improvement over Vista and even over XP.

KnightExemplar
Posts: 5489
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:58 pm UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:23 am UTC

Hey, commercial release is out now!

I've been playing with Windows 8 on a dedicated desktop machine (keyboard / mouse / normal monitor), and I actually like it a lot. The start screen is strictly superior to the crappy old start menu, and it boggles my mind that people actually criticize it. Seriously, live tiles + scroll wheel support + very easy customization make for a significantly better experience. Oh yeah, and Minesweeper has achievements and adventure mode now.

I'm worried about the "Walled Garden" of Metro... I mean... Windows Store applications however. Locking Windows Store Apps to well.. the Windows Store is as evil as Apple's walled garden of iPads and such. I hope Microsoft realizes their mistake and opens it up eventually.
First Strike +1/+1 and Indestructible.

EvanED
Posts: 4324
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:28 am UTC
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby EvanED » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:43 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:The start screen is strictly superior to the crappy old start menu, and it boggles my mind that people actually criticize it.

I have one small but somewhat significant complaint: when searching (after typing something), if there are no application hits but there are hits in the settings, they do not appear by default and you have to click on the settings to get them to appear. I search for settings often enough that's annoying. (Perhaps there is a keyboard button to avoid the click.)

Other than that... I barely notice the difference, honestly. I do most of my app launching by typing the name and letting it come up, and that works well under both models.

KnightExemplar
Posts: 5489
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:58 pm UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:50 am UTC

EvanED wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:The start screen is strictly superior to the crappy old start menu, and it boggles my mind that people actually criticize it.

I have one small but somewhat significant complaint: when searching (after typing something), if there are no application hits but there are hits in the settings, they do not appear by default and you have to click on the settings to get them to appear. I search for settings often enough that's annoying. (Perhaps there is a keyboard button to avoid the click.)

Other than that... I barely notice the difference, honestly. I do most of my app launching by typing the name and letting it come up, and that works well under both models.


For settings search, try hitting the "Windows Key + W".

Windows Key + F has been designated as "files only".

LEARN YOUR KEYS!! http://www.redmondpie.com/this-extensiv ... interface/

For me btw, I have enough Japanese games that I can't read the titles of (let alone type), so I rely on double-clicking their icons. Good ol' Touhou. So now I just hit windows-key and click on those icons. Instead of before, where I'd have to minimize all my windows for the desktop shortcut (if I have few windows) or go into the start menu to find them (which frankly... always was poorly organized. I need more than just 10 or so pinned applications).
First Strike +1/+1 and Indestructible.

Derek
Posts: 2146
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:15 am UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby Derek » Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:18 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Oh yeah, and Minesweeper has achievements and adventure mode now.

Please, tell me more.

KnightExemplar
Posts: 5489
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:58 pm UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:26 am UTC

You run around looking for treasure and stuff. Traps are marked off by the numbers. Achievements are ... well... achievements. Complete beginner mode in X time, that sort of thing. There probably are adventure-mode achievements as well.

Image
First Strike +1/+1 and Indestructible.

User avatar
phlip
Restorer of Worlds
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:56 am UTC
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby phlip » Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:40 am UTC

I haven't tried Windows 8 since the original developer preview... but this is what I thought then:
phlip wrote:
phlip wrote:If anyone asks, I can ramble at length, but that'll do me for now.

OK, so no-one asked, but bugger it, I feel like rambling, so here we go. Spoilered for very long and very pointless.
Spoiler:
[post-writing edit]Long and pointless yes, but putting it into words definitely solidified exactly what I think is dumb about the interface. If you want to make this post more interesting, or just fancy a trip to your local hospital, take a drink every time I explain something in the Metro interface by comparing it to a smartphone.[/post-writing edit]

OK, so I get that the idea is to try to unify the look-and-feel between Windows-on-a-desktop with Windows-on-a-tablet and Windows Phone and etc. But the result is just a pile of fail. For the first, many of the gestures that make some sort of sense with a touchscreen are just clunky with a mouse... slide-to-unlock being the one that comes to mind. I was stuck for a good 5-10 seconds at the login screen trying to figure out how to log in before it hit home... you get a picture with a clock and some other readings on it, like a phone lock screen... you then click and drag up to move the whole thing off the top and reveal the login screen. You can also double-click or hit a key to move it away, but a single click just makes it hop up a little and then slide back down. Pointless, and confusing.

The other thing that stands out is the new Start screen. Firstly, there doesn't seem to be a way to disable this and get the normal start menu back. I guess because then there'd be no way to launch the new Metro-style "apps". Which is odd, as usually they're good with this for set-in-ways power users. Even on Windows 7, you can turn off Aero, turn on the classic start menu, unpin everything from the start bar, add a quick launch, turn off icon grouping, turn on window titles, and turn off autohide in the notification area... and end up with a taskbar that looks and behaves almost identically to the one in Win98. Or mix and match as you see fit. Maybe this option will appear later, as they figure out a way to do it, it just seems like something that wouldn't go over well if they forget it.

Secondly, the switching back and forth between the Metro apps and the standard desktop feels clunky. It feels more like you have two computers and you're switching between them, than just running different styles of program on the same machine. It's like if you were on Linux, and it didn't have any X terminal emulators... you can do GUI stuff in X, and then Ctrl+Alt+F1 to switch to the virtual terminals and do some text-mode stuff. Then switch back to X to do something else. Always in one or the other, and they don't interact. Whereas with a graphical terminal emulator you can smoothly switch between the two worlds, without feeling like you're always in one or the other. When you're in the Metro mode, the computer behaves like a smartphone, or a tablet - the home screen covers the whole screen, and then you pick an app and it launches and covers the whole screen... you can then switch back to the start screen and launch something else and then it covers the whole screen... if you have a big enough screen you can apparently run two apps side-by-side, but I didn't get a chance to try that (I was playing with it at work, and my screens aren't big enough... now that I'm at home I should be able to try it). It's all very modal, as befits a smartphone interface. But launch a legacy app and you go back to the old Windows desktop-plus-taskbar-plus-overlapped-windows look, and everything feels basically identical to Windows 7, plus or minus a few changes to the shell (Windows Explorer has a giant ribbon now, that takes up a huge piece of the window, for instance). The two don't interact - any Metro apps you may have open don't appear on the taskbar, and any legacy apps can't be accessed while in Metro mode.

Note that I say "legacy apps", but of course 95% of what people are doing are going to be in those legacy apps... every program that is coming over from existing versions, and most of what's new will likely be the old-style apps, and the only things I'm expecting to come out as Metro apps will be small toys and single-purpose tools... again, the sort of thing you'd expect to find on a smartphone.

The way you interact with everything is completely different in the two modes, too. Right-clicking, for instance. In legacy mode it does what you're used to - brings up a context menu, in almost every situation. In Metro, it also brings up a context menu... sometimes. With maybe one or two entries in it - right clicking on text gives you just "Copy". Then, later "Copy" and "Paste". In a giant box. Again, like you'd see on a smartphone. In other situations, though, it brings up the controls for the app... the sort of things you'd expect to be always available on a desktop app, but a smartphone app would hide when not needed to save space on the tiny screen. It's just another vestige that feels out-of-place on a desktop machine... another thing that was designed specifically for the unique challenges of a smartphone (tiny screen, imprecise controls with finger-on-touchscreen, low processing power) and then unthinkingly brought over to a machine which doesn't have those challenges in the name of unification.

There's also a pile of assorted stupid things. Like the legacy part of the start screen, which lists everything that would be in the old start menu (which, as I said, will contain probably 95% of what people will use)... just... lists everything that would be in the old start menu. In one list. With no grouping or folders or anything, just a big list of icons. Which means if you have ten programs which put a folder in the start menu, each of which have, say, an option that just says "Uninstall", with a standard NSIS icon or whatever, then you'll have 10 icons in your start screen that just say "Uninstall", distinguishable only by the order in which they appear. This legacy section is empty at first install... so while all the standard legacy builtin accessories are there (notepad, wordpad, paint, etc) but you can't find them anywhere short of Win+R (the actual Run command is nowhere to be found, but the shortcut still exists) or finding the actual .exes in Explorer. Though many other standards are missing... I can't find any trace of the Minesweeper/Solitare/Freecell trinity.
Meanwhile, in the Metro side, there doesn't seem to be any easy way to actually close a Metro app. All you have is the Windows key on the keyboard, which acts much like the home key on a smartphone. I dunno what you do if you if you have a 101-key keyboard without Windows keys... guess you're SOL. [edit] Wait, no, Ctrl+Esc still works. So I guess you're only SOL if you have a 101-key keyboard and don't know that particular piece of arcane trivia about Windows shortcuts that I bet isn't mentioned anywhere in the help docs. Which you probably couldn't reach anyway 'cause you opened up Notespace and can't get out. [/edit] This also brings with it the fun of not knowing whether a particular app is hidden, or actually closed. Since going back to the start screen doesn't actually close the app - if you click it again, it just slides back into view. But I know the apps do close eventually if you do enough stuff, 'cause I've seen them reopen. This blurring between closed and open-but-inactive is something I strongly dislike about OSX and the iPhone and such... and something that I hoped wasn't coming when Win7 copied the dock. I thought the Win7 taskbar was OK, though... it was still visually clear whether a program was running or not... as opposed to the OSX dock's barely-noticible dot below the icon and the iPhone's complete lack of any indication. (Disclaimer: I have only briefly used OSX, and have multitasking turned off on my iPhone - both because of this and because it's an older iPhone that can't handle it anyway. So I may be missing some nuances with how they handle things. But they're not the focus of this post.) That's gone out of the window here, though. Only place I've seen so far that'll tell you whether an app is actually still alive is the Task Manager. Which has had yet another overhaul, and seems quite an improvement over the Win7 taskman... which was itself quite an improvement over XP's. This is one team at Microsoft that seems to know what they're doing.

In short, I think Microsoft have broken their pattern. Consumer-level Windows has recently gone through the pattern of bringing out something useable, then polishing it, and then trying something new and failing. 95 was usable, 98 was 95 but polished, ME failed. 2K was useable, XP was 2K but polished, Vista failed. Skip a step, Win7 was Vista but polished, Win8 fails.

To sum up - I hope this truly is just a developer preview as they claim, and that none of the UI stuff is finalised yet. Because it has a lot to be desired.

So, those that have used the finished product... did they actually fix any of that after the dev preview?

Code: Select all

enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};
void ┻━┻︵​╰(ಠ_ಠ ⚠) {exit((int)⚠);}
[he/him/his]

KnightExemplar
Posts: 5489
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:58 pm UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:02 am UTC

The other thing that stands out is the new Start screen. Firstly, there doesn't seem to be a way to disable this and get the normal start menu back. I guess because then there'd be no way to launch the new Metro-style "apps". Which is odd, as usually they're good with this for set-in-ways power users. Even on Windows 7, you can turn off Aero, turn on the classic start menu, unpin everything from the start bar, add a quick launch, turn off icon grouping, turn on window titles, and turn off autohide in the notification area... and end up with a taskbar that looks and behaves almost identically to the one in Win98. Or mix and match as you see fit. Maybe this option will appear later, as they figure out a way to do it, it just seems like something that wouldn't go over well if they forget it.


As far as I know, the start menu is completely gone. You have to install a 3rd party replacement start menu, or just get used to the start screen. Personally, I prefer the start screen and will roll with it.

Secondly, the switching back and forth between the Metro apps and the standard desktop feels clunky. It feels more like you have two computers and you're switching between them, than just running different styles of program on the same machine. It's like if you were on Linux, and it didn't have any X terminal emulators... you can do GUI stuff in X, and then Ctrl+Alt+F1 to switch to the virtual terminals and do some text-mode stuff. Then switch back to X to do something else. Always in one or the other, and they don't interact. Whereas with a graphical terminal emulator you can smoothly switch between the two worlds, without feeling like you're always in one or the other. When you're in the Metro mode, the computer behaves like a smartphone, or a tablet - the home screen covers the whole screen, and then you pick an app and it launches and covers the whole screen... you can then switch back to the start screen and launch something else and then it covers the whole screen... if you have a big enough screen you can apparently run two apps side-by-side, but I didn't get a chance to try that (I was playing with it at work, and my screens aren't big enough... now that I'm at home I should be able to try it). It's all very modal, as befits a smartphone interface. But launch a legacy app and you go back to the old Windows desktop-plus-taskbar-plus-overlapped-windows look, and everything feels basically identical to Windows 7, plus or minus a few changes to the shell (Windows Explorer has a giant ribbon now, that takes up a huge piece of the window, for instance). The two don't interact - any Metro apps you may have open don't appear on the taskbar, and any legacy apps can't be accessed while in Metro mode.


Mostly yes. "Desktop mode" for all practical purposes is an app inside of Metro. The "Metro Taskbar" is on the left side of the screen, and its easy to switch between all of the apps that are running (even from inside of Desktop mode). However, to switch from say, the Mail app into a specific program in desktop mode, you need to first switch into desktop mode, and then alt-tab into the program you're looking for. Really, desktop mode is an app, and thats how you have to think about it. As such, you are able to have desktop mode side-by-side with other apps with the tablet multitasking experience. (only two apps on the screen at once at most, and even then they have to be in this primary / secondary arrangement).

This example screenshot has me with desktop mode as "primary" and photos app as the "secondary" app in metro.
Image

There's also a pile of assorted stupid things. Like the legacy part of the start screen, which lists everything that would be in the old start menu (which, as I said, will contain probably 95% of what people will use)... just... lists everything that would be in the old start menu. In one list. With no grouping or folders or anything, just a big list of icons. Which means if you have ten programs which put a folder in the start menu, each of which have, say, an option that just says "Uninstall", with a standard NSIS icon or whatever, then you'll have 10 icons in your start screen that just say "Uninstall", distinguishable only by the order in which they appear.


This is fixed. Here's a picture of my "all apps" screen. As you can see, its organized into the folders that used to be in the Start Menu.

Image


Meanwhile, in the Metro side, there doesn't seem to be any easy way to actually close a Metro app.


Alt-F4 works very well, closes every Metro App I've used so far. In tablet mode, the gesture is a drag down or something... but I haven't tried this OS on a tablet yet. Ctrl-Escape keeps the app running, and is closer to the "back" button on Android. To fully close it, its Alt-F4.
Last edited by KnightExemplar on Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:12 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
First Strike +1/+1 and Indestructible.

User avatar
phlip
Restorer of Worlds
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:56 am UTC
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby phlip » Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:10 am UTC

Hmm, that new start screen is very different to the one that was in the dev preview. Looks like something it might be possible for me to get used to, which is definitely a marked improvement.

This is what the dev preview one looks like, scrolled across to the right, where the desktop-application links live:
win8devprev.png
I'll let you guess what those two "Uninstall" links do.

Code: Select all

enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};
void ┻━┻︵​╰(ಠ_ಠ ⚠) {exit((int)⚠);}
[he/him/his]

User avatar
Steax
SecondTalon's Goon Squad
Posts: 3038
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:18 pm UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby Steax » Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:29 am UTC

Wait, is that Firefox on the desktop mode? I thought that wasn't happening.

Also, it's rather annoying to see the old vista-style icons next to the modern UI style ones. Or whatever they call them. But otherwise it looks... Okay. Some people give it very bad reviews for stability and speed, though. Is this true?
In Minecraft, I use the username Rirez.

User avatar
Jplus
Posts: 1692
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:29 pm UTC
Location: Netherlands

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby Jplus » Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:03 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:I'm worried about the "Walled Garden" of Metro... I mean... Windows Store applications however. Locking Windows Store Apps to well.. the Windows Store is as evil as Apple's walled garden of iPads and such. I hope Microsoft realizes their mistake and opens it up eventually.

You're not telling me you used to believe that Microsoft is an angel, are you?

(Apart from that: I don't think a walled garden is evil, just a bit overly rigid if there is no other channel to obtain your software from.)
"There are only two hard problems in computer science: cache coherence, naming things, and off-by-one errors." (Phil Karlton and Leon Bambrick)

coding and xkcd combined

(Julian/Julian's)

KnightExemplar
Posts: 5489
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:58 pm UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:41 pm UTC

Steax wrote:Wait, is that Firefox on the desktop mode? I thought that wasn't happening.


The article is still true, but you gotta understand the details. Windows RT is different from Windows 8. Windows 8 has full backwards compatibility with desktop mode. So of course Firefox / Chrome / normal programs will still work. For this reason, its IMO a no brainer to upgrade to Windows 8.

On the other hand, Windows RT devices (like the Surface RT) are Metro-only, erm... Windows Store Applications only. And thus, Windows RT have the restrictions of the Windows Store, including the Windows Store API (which Firefox has criticized as being too closed down), as well as the "walled garden", where Microsoft controls all the content of Windows Store. And its very difficult to get Metro apps without the use of Windows Store. You need an enterprise license or a side-loading license to be able to load software without going through the Windows Store. (A developer license only affects one machine, but side-loading licenses only affect machines you have direct access too).

So basically, if Firefox were to come to Windows RT... or Windows 8 Metro Mode... it would have to go through the Windows Store and use the Windows Store API. And thus the walled garden. BTW: "Windows Store API" is the new name for Metro. I'm trying to use it but I notice that I keep saying Metro for some reason. Lol.

Also, it's rather annoying to see the old vista-style icons next to the modern UI style ones. Or whatever they call them. But otherwise it looks... Okay. Some people give it very bad reviews for stability and speed, though. Is this true?


Stability and speed are those things that are really hard to test. Windows 8 hasn't crashed for me yet, but its only been a few days. So I honestly don't know.

Speed... tomshardware did a report on it: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/win ... ,3317.html . It looks like Windows 8 and Windows 7 are basically the same speed. Windows RT is a different story as I haven't used it yet.

Jplus wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:I'm worried about the "Walled Garden" of Metro... I mean... Windows Store applications however. Locking Windows Store Apps to well.. the Windows Store is as evil as Apple's walled garden of iPads and such. I hope Microsoft realizes their mistake and opens it up eventually.

You're not telling me you used to believe that Microsoft is an angel, are you?

(Apart from that: I don't think a walled garden is evil, just a bit overly rigid if there is no other channel to obtain your software from.)


Its an effective business strategy, so its hard to blame them. But it gives reason to hedge against them IMO. I feel like an easy compromise is at order. If sideloading were as easy as Android, then I wouldn't have a problem. But it really turns me off of the new API.

When the only path to getting a Metro-Application published on Windows 8 is through a store that takes a 30% cut from your revenue, it is reason to look away from the API in general.
Last edited by KnightExemplar on Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:48 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
First Strike +1/+1 and Indestructible.

User avatar
Steax
SecondTalon's Goon Squad
Posts: 3038
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:18 pm UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby Steax » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:48 pm UTC

Oh, right. Somehow I managed to mix it up with RT (probably because the Surface has been flooding the tech media). So every time I see the interface I immediately think "Surface!"
In Minecraft, I use the username Rirez.

KnightExemplar
Posts: 5489
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:58 pm UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:52 pm UTC

phlip wrote:This is what the dev preview one looks like, scrolled across to the right, where the desktop-application links live:
win8devprev.png


Ah, yes that. That still exists. What I showed you was when you right-click and hit the "All Apps" button in the Start Screen. IMO, the Start Screen is more like the desktop for me. While "All Apps" inside of the Start Screen is more like the old start menu.

There aren't any folders inside of the Start Screen. You just gotta arrange the tiles in some cohesive fashion. Its a bad place to put "uninstall" shortcuts for sure, since you wouldn't know what they do.
First Strike +1/+1 and Indestructible.

Meem1029
Posts: 379
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:11 am UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby Meem1029 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:29 am UTC

I'm not sure yet and haven't thought much about it from what I've seen (same problem as, well, everything these days. Tablets are cool and therefore clearly superior, right?). I am going to be installing it tomorrow since I'm building a computer and got it for free from my school. Any tips that will make me happier with it?
cjmcjmcjmcjm wrote:If it can't be done in an 80x24 terminal, it's not worth doing

User avatar
Jplus
Posts: 1692
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:29 pm UTC
Location: Netherlands

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby Jplus » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:04 pm UTC

It so happens that our own Hammer wrote a blog post on Windows 8.
"There are only two hard problems in computer science: cache coherence, naming things, and off-by-one errors." (Phil Karlton and Leon Bambrick)

coding and xkcd combined

(Julian/Julian's)

KnightExemplar
Posts: 5489
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:58 pm UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:15 pm UTC

Jplus wrote:It so happens that our own Hammer wrote a blog post on Windows 8.


Keyboard shortcuts are still some of the most productive ways to move around the Windows 8 stuff though. It happens that they made the interface compatible with touch, but its not like the "Windows Key shortcuts" are non-productive (Windows+W for "search for apps", Windows+C for charms bar, etc. etc.). Virtually everything in Windows8, much like other versions of Windows, becomes more productive when you use scroll-wheels and keyboard shortcuts.

The main issue is that you have to relearn the metaphors and tweek your mental model a bit. Also, Metro-mode is woefully weak compared to desktop mode as far as productivity is concerned... but the addition of app notifications has only made it that much easier to access messages and emails as they come in. (Even in desktop mode, email notifications come in as expected, since Desktop mode is just another app). While Metro mode has its downfalls (walled garden, maximum of two windows in primary/secondary formation, new interface to learn, etc. etc, wtf scroll-wheel is "sideways"), it certainly was designed to be used by a keyboard / mouse.

Just because it looks like a phone interface doesn't mean you are forced to use touch.
First Strike +1/+1 and Indestructible.

User avatar
Dason
Posts: 1309
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:06 am UTC
Location: ~/

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby Dason » Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:38 pm UTC

Jplus wrote:It so happens that our own Hammer wrote a blog post on Windows 8.


Thank you for that! I didn't realize Hammer had a blog and it lead me to this gem: http://onetireddeveloper.blogspot.nl/20 ... o-bad.html

For something slightly on topic - I really want to try out that new minesweeper. I'm a minesweeper junkie. Although I tend to prefer gnomine.
double epsilon = -.0000001;

User avatar
Copper Bezel
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:35 am UTC
Location: Web exclusive!

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby Copper Bezel » Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:58 am UTC

KnightExemplar, despite watching some videos and reading some reviews, I didn't know about the mandatory primary / secondary window arrangement until I played with one of these machines in-store, so I'm glad you mentioned it. = ) It's a feature that certainly sticks out. Does anyone know what the logic behind it might be? I'd assumed that the window resizing would work like Chrome's Aurora - the windows would resize together, but freely, so you could have a primary-secondary arrangement or an even split depending on the task, basically 1/3:2/3, 2/3:1/3, or 1/2:1/2. But having the windows automatically snap down to one taking 4/5 of the screen, while the other inevitably just turned into the app's logo, made the whole idea that RT had windowing seem somewhat less useful.

Does it start to serve a purpose once you get settled into the environment?
So much depends upon a red wheel barrow (>= XXII) but it is not going to be installed.

she / her / her

Iranon
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:30 am UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby Iranon » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:09 am UTC

A few thoughts:

In The Interface Formerly Known As Metro, what we're left with in the primary window is of an appropriate aspect ratio for "fullscreen" work on a 16:9 monitor.
True fullscreen would require excess eye movement (if the screen takes up most of our useful field of vision. If it doesn't we should have gotten a taller screen...).

Free window management is apparently regarded as a source of unnecessary frustration (getting it exactly as you intend is fiddly or needs potentially intrusive helpers), the trend has been towards spatially intuitive movements that take care of the details for you. Not giving one a choice means there's little chance for messing up, complementing the trend towards a more intuitive if less precise input scheme (mouse to touch).
Not giving one a choice also simplifies the design of TIFKAM applications - they need to work well fullscreen, at 4/5 width, and be somewhat functional at 1/5 width.

The 4/5 : 1/5 split would also be suitable to displaying some live tiles as a cleaner and more powerful succssor to the Vista sidebar.
LEGO won't be ready for the average user until it comes pre-assembled, in a single unified theme, and glued together so it doesn't come apart.

User avatar
Jplus
Posts: 1692
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:29 pm UTC
Location: Netherlands

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby Jplus » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:00 pm UTC

Iranon wrote:Free window management is apparently regarded as a source of unnecessary frustration (getting it exactly as you intend is fiddly or needs potentially intrusive helpers), the trend has been towards spatially intuitive movements that take care of the details for you. Not giving one a choice means there's little chance for messing up, complementing the trend towards a more intuitive if less precise input scheme (mouse to touch).

That line of reasoning seems so utterly familiar. Where did I see it before?
"There are only two hard problems in computer science: cache coherence, naming things, and off-by-one errors." (Phil Karlton and Leon Bambrick)

coding and xkcd combined

(Julian/Julian's)

User avatar
Copper Bezel
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:35 am UTC
Location: Web exclusive!

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby Copper Bezel » Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:59 pm UTC

It makes a kind of sense, but it isn't exactly windowing, which I guess is fine for small screens, but even Surface is large enough that I'd want to be able to have two windows side to side in a normal split configuration. Then again, I guess that that that still couldn't be, say, two browser windows, and Office stuff is still supposed to happen in the Desktop anyway.

If the Metro OneNote or any messaging app is functional as a sidebar app, they could make sense in that configuration. And I get what you're saying about just using the secondary as a spacer to make the primary app not widescreen, since wide screen is basically only ideal for video. It's still a little less than ideal that they didn't put in the work to make the windowing more versatile, and keeping track of which apps can and can't be useful as secondary windows and fiddling with switching the aspect ratios introduces as many "choices" as offering a half-and-half split would have. (I mean, I can imagine using the primary-secondary arrangement as just a very awkward form of window switching between two windows involved in a task. It would be ugly and wasteful and still not any more awkward than edge-flipping between them.)
So much depends upon a red wheel barrow (>= XXII) but it is not going to be installed.

she / her / her

KnightExemplar
Posts: 5489
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:58 pm UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby KnightExemplar » Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:45 pm UTC

My bet is actually on the unified nature of the Windows 8 Metro API. Phone Apps, Surface RT apps, and Windows8 Apps all have a similar API. Thus, it is easy to port between the three systems. Not only are the APIs similar, but the benefits / restrictions of their interfaces are also unified, making cross platform design easier. If you are porting an app from a small-screen phone, the mandatory primary/secondary arrangement makes sense. After all, if you really wanted a rich desktop interface, you still can just program a plain ol' Desktop program as before. On the other hand, it seems like Microsoft is encouraging metro app developers to port their software to the Windows 8 Phone.

Primary/secondary window arrangement is superior to multitasking on IOS and Android. Compared to desktop mode, its woefully inadequate. So I guess its just something to keep in mind. Surface RT was designed to compete against tablets. Windows 8 Metro is provided for easy compatibility to Surface RT and Windows Phones.
First Strike +1/+1 and Indestructible.

User avatar
Copper Bezel
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:35 am UTC
Location: Web exclusive!

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby Copper Bezel » Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:44 am UTC

Yeah, I could kind of see that.

But phones and smaller tablets presumably (I haven't played with the phones) wouldn't have the tiling anyway, since it'd be fairly useless under 10". If that's the case, then the aspect ratio of both the primary window and the sidebar window on the full desktop arrangement is actually a bit arbitrary. Windows 8 apps will necessarily have a portrait mode, after all, and they'd need to be usable in phone-size in portrait orientation, right?

So, that means that a usable, yet big-buttoned, portrait orientation of the app already exists for any app meant to port directly to Windows Phone. That's a very different thing from giant icon that the Windows Store turns into when it's secondary.

A 9:16 portrait window on one side of a 16:9 screen is 31% of the viewing area - on Surface, that'd be roughly the size of a Nexus 7. That leaves 69% of the space to the other app, which would be in a 5:4 aspect ratio. Both windows would be entirely usable, and the arrangement would be reasonably aesthetically pleasing (very close to rule-of-thirds.) Then every window would still only need to adapt to three aspect ratios (portrait, landscape, primary in landscape), where in the current arrangement, there are actually four (portrait, landscape, primary in landscape, sidebar in landscape.)

So if it's about portability, why didn't they do that?

And I get that the windowing, such as it is, is meant to compete with Android and iOS - it's the only thing that made me briefly consider Windows RT as something I could imagine myself using in some alternate future where I have money and can get over my loathing for Microsoft. But I'm not really comparing it to anything - it's a paltry effort by its own standards.
So much depends upon a red wheel barrow (>= XXII) but it is not going to be installed.

she / her / her

User avatar
Sebastiaan
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:02 am UTC
Location: Leiden, the Netherlands

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby Sebastiaan » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:38 am UTC

Well, I do not want to join the discussing above about the design architecture, but I would like to add some comments on the current upgrade process of the product from windows 7. (Normally, I always do a clean install, but I upgraded my girlfriend's computer and she wanted to keep as much as possible.)

Upgrading from Windows 7/Installation
After filling in a couple of forms and downloading the upgrade manager program provided by Microsoft to ensure an easy install, I immediately ran into trouble. First you have to buy your upgrade using either credit card or PayPal. As I don't own a credit card, I opted for the PayPal option. Normally PayPal works like a charm, but this time I ran into trouble as the upgrade manager does not use your standard browser to contact the PayPal page, but rather used a small, internal pop-up powered by internet explorer. This resulted in a PayPal error, as I later found out the standard, secure mode of the internet explorer does not accept the needed cookies. Being a bit confused, I opted for the only available option, which was closing the pop-up. The install manager did not respond to that and remained in waiting mode for the payment to conclude. This was fixed by closing the manager, changing the internet explorer security settings, and restarting the manager. Luckily, the upgrade offer coupon code still validated to give me the discount. If my girlfriend would have attempted the upgrade herself, I don't think she would've gotten around this problem.

During the second attempt, everything worked like a charm until near the end. At this point, the update manager crashed with the usual Windows 7 message "The program has stopped working". Checking the current boot entry gave indication that the manager was really nearing its conclusion as it had already replaced the normal Windows 7 boot entry with one pointing to the temporary installation directory for Windows 8, to boot the setup at restart. However, as I was unsure whether the update manager was truly finished and I didn't want to end up with a corrupted install, I opted to reload the update manager to see whether it would recognize and check the previous update attempt. It didn't. Instead it ran all over again, this time exiting successfully, with a working install. However, the process left behind a big clunk of data on the hard drive from the first update attempt, with an additional boot entry pointing to it still lingering in my boot menu. After making sure I had a recovery disk, I deleted the chunk of excess data and the additional boot entry and now Windows 8 runs just fine.

However, in my humble opinion, the update manager should have detected the (near) finished previous update attempt and either have cleaned it up or validated and completed it. I don't know what would have occurred if I mistakenly ran the addition boot entry pointing to the previous update attempt. Quite possible, it would have continued the first install, overwriting the current installation. As the second, successful upgrade already migrated the documents and settings of windows 7 to the new windows 8 install, this probably would have meant losing all the documents and settings of the Windows 7 users. Of course I had a back-up, but some might not have one.

User avatar
Copper Bezel
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:35 am UTC
Location: Web exclusive!

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby Copper Bezel » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:27 am UTC

Your update experience sounds not greatly promising, but still marginally less traumatic than the unholy mess and, in most cases, clean reinstall I end up with every six months with Ubuntu. = /

Was I getting nasty? I'm sorry if that was the case. I got a bit carried away at the end there. All I meant to say was that I don't think it's KnightExemplar's very sensible suggestion, because while the motivation he describes makes sense, I don't think it necessitates the result.

I also word too many of my questions as statements.

Jplus wrote:That line of reasoning seems so utterly familiar. Where did I see it before?

I actually don't disagree with that part of the logic, myself. Aero Snap is awesome, the behavior is equally awesome in all the major Linux environments now that they've caught on, and Chrome's Aurora takes it a step further into awesome. (At a glance, I'd thought Metro would behave similarly to Aurora.)

Needless degrees of freedom are needless - the freedom you get from a stacking window manager vs. a tiler is really just the freedom to be less efficient with your screen space use in most cases.
So much depends upon a red wheel barrow (>= XXII) but it is not going to be installed.

she / her / her

Iranon
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:30 am UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby Iranon » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:00 pm UTC

Aero Snap is a moderately nice idea.
Generalise it (drag-to-somewhere action triggers, predetermined window movement/resizing on convenient and intuitive triggers, mix and match at will) and it's well on its way to awesome.

The best interface is one built to do tricks beyond what the original creator ever considered. It should be easy to steal and expand on everyone else's good ideas (Aero Snap, Expose, mouse gestures, multiple desktops, desktop switching via scrollwheel, Stacking/Static/Dynamic Tiling at will, tabbing, fullscreen mode, keychains...).
I also like a few things I haven't seen as a default behaviour - e.g. tile slaves horizontally and maximise them vertically as long as the pointer is over them (most tilers are leopard-centric and treat the mouse as second-class citizen).

I applaud the attempt to make an OS that works on devices with hugely different ergonomics, but Windows 8 is doing it in a very clumsy way with two disjointed UIs.
It's mostly about brand recognition, power (no TIFKAM for your software unless you play by our rules, and pay us) and control (classic desktop deprecated and declared legacy, kept to prevent a revolt/exodus).
LEGO won't be ready for the average user until it comes pre-assembled, in a single unified theme, and glued together so it doesn't come apart.

KnightExemplar
Posts: 5489
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:58 pm UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby KnightExemplar » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:45 am UTC

Its nice to learn about new features, especially useful ones.

Windows 8 supports ISO mounting. Yes, they fucking finally did it.
First Strike +1/+1 and Indestructible.

Meem1029
Posts: 379
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:11 am UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby Meem1029 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:34 pm UTC

What do you not like about it? Why isn't it as good?
cjmcjmcjmcjm wrote:If it can't be done in an 80x24 terminal, it's not worth doing

314159
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:46 pm UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby 314159 » Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:35 pm UTC

I was ready to hate Windows 8, but as cheap as it was, I found a spare Hard drive, reinstalled XP, and upgraded so I can switch back easily if I want. I have to say, I think I'm going to stick with it.

A contentious issue is the closed nature of the metro apps store. You have to be approved to get your app on there, and if you're not, then it's no-go. Actually...maybe that's not contentious, as everybody seems to hate it.

So I installed Windows 8, and was looking for an app that would let me read *.cbr (comic) files, and I saw someone had made an XKCD app. Looked like one of these ones that grabs the webcomic from the source, aggregates it, and then delivers it. These are usually the bane of webcomic writers, and they take away hits to the website and ad revenue, but still use the bandwidth, so they actually cost the artist money.

An email to Davean confirmed that it wasn't anything to do with them, so now it's been reported as violating copyright, and hopefully will be removed. So I guess there is an upside.

User avatar
phlip
Restorer of Worlds
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:56 am UTC
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby phlip » Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:20 pm UTC

The xkcd strip is cc-by-nc... as long as the app attributes the comics to xkcd (which it sounds like it does), and doesn't raise money (ie free, runs no ads, etc), then it's fine.

Code: Select all

enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};
void ┻━┻︵​╰(ಠ_ಠ ⚠) {exit((int)⚠);}
[he/him/his]

314159
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:46 pm UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby 314159 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:00 am UTC

Blast, better correct that then. I look a fool now.

User avatar
Jack21222
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:13 pm UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby Jack21222 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:53 pm UTC

I haven't had a chance to use Windows 8 yet, but I cannot see myself buying it. I will probably need a new computer in the next year or so (games are starting to come out which my 4.5 year old rig simply cannot run), and I really hope I can find one with Windows 7.

From everything I've read (and from everything Windows 8 fanboys have tried to convince me with), I'd get zero use out of the new features. It's as if Microsoft took windows 7, grafted a tablet UI onto it, and then sent that out. The big "selling point" to me was that I can ignore the Metro mode if I wanted to. How the hell is that supposed to be an improvement over Windows 7? I don't have a Microsoft account, I don't download "apps," I don't have any other Microsoft products (my phone is from Apple, for example), I don't do social networking (so I don't need facebook integration), I don't have a touch screen... Windows 8 adds nothing to me except for the frustration of working around the new useless things.

The thing that annoys me about Windows 8 is that I feel like I'm being rushed into buying a new machine sooner rather than later, because new computers tend to only have the newest version of Windows as an option.
broken_escalator wrote:The Mako is powered by the rage of the physics it denies.

KnightExemplar
Posts: 5489
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:58 pm UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:43 pm UTC

It seems to me that Microsoft is doing a really poor job at marketing the new features in Windows 8. For $40 you get...

* Native ISO Mounting
* Native USB3.0 support
* Native Bluetooth support
* Storage Spaces (thin provisioning of your disk space across a span of disks)
* File History (Window's response to Apple's "Time Machine"). Did you screw up your essay too much and want to revert to your essay from an hour ago? Just click on File History and pull back the file from an hour ago!

No seriously, what the hell is this "no new features" crap that I keep hearing about? With the $40 Windows Pro upgrade, you get other infrastructure changes like NUMA support in process manager and Hyper-V Virtualization for free too. Enterprise gets Windows to Go. But of all the new features... I'm certain everyone can use Storage Spaces and File History.

The native apps are also useful. Windows 8 has a native PDF, mail, and calendar app. Outlook is probably superior, but it was very very easy to get my mail / calendar / contacts all synced up to my Android phone. I just typed in my gmail account and it was done across the entire OS. I've been pretty pleased with the live-tiles on calendar / mail as well. I can check if I have new messages by just tapping the "windows" key to get to the start screen. And Windows 8 notifications alert me whenever I get a new email / have an appointment.
Last edited by KnightExemplar on Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:58 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
First Strike +1/+1 and Indestructible.

User avatar
Steax
SecondTalon's Goon Squad
Posts: 3038
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:18 pm UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby Steax » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:55 pm UTC

I honestly didn't know about any of those 5. I've known a bunch of devices with USB 3 - though I never associated it with Windows, and more with the hardware. Same with bluetooth (and as a general user, what does "native" actually mean?); ISO mounting I've always used free apps for, and it's nice to know it's available. Without intending to turn this into another Mac-vs-PC thing, I'm quite surprised that those 3 are new, since OS X has had them for a while. Same goes for File History.

Storage spaces sounds interesting. Is that basically just a sort of adaptive RAID setup?

Most people haven't a clue what NUMA or Hyperbahoozits Virtualization means. They just think "$40 and I probably don't need that". If I knew about actual useful features like File History (not sure about Storage Space, since most run-of-the-mill desktops just have 1 drive anyway), I might actually recommend more people to use it.
In Minecraft, I use the username Rirez.

KnightExemplar
Posts: 5489
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:58 pm UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:05 pm UTC

"Native" means you aren't installing 3rd party drivers anymore to get those features. Windows 8 ships with functioning bluetooth and USB 3.0 drivers off the bat.

Storage Spaces is an expansion of Windows Volumes from Vista / 7. The major new feature in Windows 8 specifically is thin provisioning. So if you have 500 GB of real space... you can create a 2000 GB "virtual disk". But wait, 2000 is larger than 500 GB! What happens then? Simple, later when you actually run out of physical space, you can add a new hard drive later. You just "provision" or reserve the 2000 GB right now, even though you only have 500 GB physically.

Later, if you ever actually start using that 2000 GB entirely (erm... at least more than the 500GB you have physically), you can reconfigure the storage space to include a new hard drive. Your logical disk space didn't change. Thus, the advantage of thin provisioning. Considering that Storage Space includes support for network hard drives under the iSCSI protocol, it should be very easy to expand your storage spaces. (Not just with SATA hard drives inside of your computer, but even use network drives to expand the space)

Oy, and that article brings up another thing.

Copying Files shows a graph on how fast its going now.

Image

Yeah baby. Windows finally solved the "bad estimated time" problem by just showing us the complete graph of MB/s copy speed as its happening.
First Strike +1/+1 and Indestructible.

EvanED
Posts: 4324
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:28 am UTC
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby EvanED » Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:13 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:It seems to me that Microsoft is doing a really poor job at marketing the new features in Windows 8...

I'll definitely have to look at the file history, because that's similar to something that I've wanted for a while. (Though I never really tried out the "previous versions" feature in older versions, so who knows if it'll play out.) I don't like the fact that it sounds like it saves to a separate location; I'll have to see if I can make it use the same volume that the things being backed up are on.

But storage spaces? In some sense, I don't see myself having a need for that. In fact, I do the opposite -- I take one disk and partition it up into multiple volumes. :-) And I'm pretty down on the idea of RAID for home users, so that feature doesn't really appeal to me either. (True backup should come before RAID, and for me the latter's not worth buying even more hard disks for.) The extra flexibility you talk about in your later post does sound somewhat cool, but again less relevant in my environment. (If you could resize a volume after-the-fact: that would be useful. Can you? (I'm using "volume" for "virtual disk".))

I don't have USB 3 hardware, I don't have Bluetooth hardware, so I don't care about those. Native ISO mounting is nice but I've never really had problems with third party tools either. I'm not really saying you're wrong in some sense, because some people will care about these things, and even I might care about File History. And I'm running Win 8 and I don't plan on going back, but if I think about what they've added since 7 that I care about for the desktop world, there's not really any one feature that I'm like "this is awesome!" but just a few relatively minor improvements like the new task manager and I would guess much faster boot, but these are also counterbalanced by a few minor inconveniences.

Steax wrote:Without intending to turn this into another Mac-vs-PC thing, I'm quite surprised that those 3 are new, since OS X has had them for a while. Same goes for File History.

File History isn't as new as saying "New to Win8!" makes it sound. I mean it is, but at the same time it's reasonably similar to the "Previous Versions" feature introduced in Windows Vista (which beat Time Machine to market). It uses a different technology with different tradeoffs and the result of the File History feature is closer to what Time Machine does from the sound of it, but it's not like Apple invented the feature from nothingness and Windows is only getting it just now. (Heck, VMS basically had that feature. Why'd it take Apple so long? :-))

KnightExemplar
Posts: 5489
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:58 pm UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:25 pm UTC

Spanned volumes allow you to add space to a logical drive as needed. So... "old feature" from Windows Vista / 7 could do what you're asking. (Sorta... because people probably prefer striped or mirrored volumes. Which do not support resizing)

As for whether or not Storage Spaces can do it... I don't think so. But resizing after the fact seems redundant in the face of just thin-provisioning a 100 TB storage space and never worrying about it again.

EDIT: as for USB 3.0... 190MB/s flash drives are pretty nice. Yeah... an external flash drive that beats all mechanical hard drives in read speed for $25 bucks. I haven't used it yet, but if I ever use the Windows To Go feature in Windows 8... I'm probably gonna do it on a USB 3.0 drive. Actually, because Windows Enterprise is so expensive, I probably won't be doing that. But still... looks awesome.

(Windows to Go stores your Windows desktop / start screen / applications on a USB drive. Which you're supposed to be able to use to recreate your desktop workspace anywhere you can take a USB drive)
First Strike +1/+1 and Indestructible.

User avatar
Steax
SecondTalon's Goon Squad
Posts: 3038
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:18 pm UTC

Re: Do you like or hate Windows 8?

Postby Steax » Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:43 pm UTC

Yeah, I saw that new copy dialog. It's a nice (and Windows-y) touch.

EvanED wrote:
Steax wrote:Without intending to turn this into another Mac-vs-PC thing, I'm quite surprised that those 3 are new, since OS X has had them for a while. Same goes for File History.

File History isn't as new as saying "New to Win8!" makes it sound. I mean it is, but at the same time it's reasonably similar to the "Previous Versions" feature introduced in Windows Vista (which beat Time Machine to market). It uses a different technology with different tradeoffs and the result of the File History feature is closer to what Time Machine does from the sound of it, but it's not like Apple invented the feature from nothingness and Windows is only getting it just now. (Heck, VMS basically had that feature. Why'd it take Apple so long? :-))


I remember hearing about Previous Versions on Vista, but I've never heard of a single useful executed use of it... Or it could also just be terrible marketing. This was far less of a surprise for me than the native USB 3/ISO mounting/Bluetooth support, though. For those, I didn't intend to mean "OS X had it first!" - I meant more along the lines of "I thought it was commonplace technology since the other major commercial desktop OS has had it for a while, and I've seen it used everywhere so I thought it was native."

So what does being native actually afford you, then? What would the 15-second pitch be?
In Minecraft, I use the username Rirez.


Return to “Religious Wars”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests