The Martial Arts Thread

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BlackSails
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The Martial Arts Thread

Postby BlackSails » Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:49 pm UTC

ITT, we discuss martial arts (duh)

I do Shotokan Karate, Krav Maga, and once I save up enough money, Brazilian Jiujustu.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Gunfingers » Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:57 pm UTC

Interesting you should bring this up, me and a friend are just getting back into our training. We have no teacher, but can do our forms and some controlled sparring. We do Shingo-ha Yoshukai, though we've both trained a little bit under Shorin-Ryu and once trained with a guy who came from a Shotokan background. He was a badass.

Anyone in the St Louis area who wants to do a little training?

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Nath » Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:33 pm UTC

Old martial arts thread.

The sign outside my club says 'Jujutsu'. We have Judo and Sambo people in the club as well, so they tend to be incorporated quite heavily into our practice. And, of course, there are always a few wrestlers and BJJ-types showing up.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Ender » Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:21 am UTC

The place I go to does Tang Soo Do. Which is a korean martial arts. Our place also allows Tae Kwon Do belt tests, I think its because either the head instructor is a master in both or because they two types are similar enough.
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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Kaienne » Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:47 pm UTC

Going to be getting into Ba Gwa soon. I'm a liquid dancer, so a style that's smooth and sleek is especially appealing to me.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Leah » Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:30 pm UTC

I did SAMA Karate for six years, did some teaching for the last two. Unfortunately, school came first and I dropped it for a while and never really went back. I miss it occasionally, mostly the fights, but I never managed to progress past 1st kyu. I stayed on that for 2 years, so I don't think going back would be much good.

I still do kickboxing once a week to keep my stamina up and let off steam.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby nezha » Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:22 am UTC

I boxed for about a year. Does that count?

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby BlackSails » Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:04 pm UTC

nezha wrote:I boxed for about a year. Does that count?


Sure, why wouldnt it?

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby ishikiri » Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:36 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:
nezha wrote:I boxed for about a year. Does that count?


Sure, why wouldnt it?

A lot of Martial Artists don't consider Boxing an MA. Usually because of its lack of leg-work, forms and its total sport/competition focus (and because its not from the far east, so you know, it can't be an MA).

Some use it to augment training (more bag-work and sparring then most MA's ever do) others say it produces poorer hitting techniques due to the use of heavy gloves.
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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby BlackSails » Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:53 pm UTC

ishikiri wrote:
BlackSails wrote:
nezha wrote:I boxed for about a year. Does that count?


Sure, why wouldnt it?

A lot of Martial Artists don't consider Boxing an MA. Usually because of its lack of leg-work, forms and its total sport/competition focus (and because its not from the far east, so you know, it can't be an MA).

Some use it to augment training (more bag-work and sparring then most MA's ever do) others say it produces poorer hitting techniques due to the use of heavy gloves.


Boxing is a better MA than probably 95% of regular MA.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby philth » Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:59 pm UTC

Been looking around the area here to see what is available, did some kind of karate when I was very young (< 10). Any suggestions on what to try or how to get in to some kind of martial arts at this late of an age? (I'm 21)

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby BlackSails » Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:27 pm UTC

philth wrote:Been looking around the area here to see what is available, did some kind of karate when I was very young (< 10). Any suggestions on what to try or how to get in to some kind of martial arts at this late of an age? (I'm 21)


It depends on what you want to do. If you just want to get in shape, just take any class that looks physically demanding. If you want to be able to defend yourself, its much harder to find a school that will do that. The MA with the best quality controls at the moment though, is Brazillian Jiujutsu.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Gaz » Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:29 am UTC

Boxing uses a fair bit of legwork. Getting someone off-balance is often the quickest way to a knockout or lots of points from clean hits. Anthony Mundine is a pretty good example, he beat Danny Green basically on the speed of his punches and capitalising on it with good footwork.
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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby bieber » Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:27 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:The MA with the best quality controls at the moment though, is Brazillian Jiujutsu.

Maybe, but it's also the style with the least practical application. Don't get me wrong: I practice some BJJ, and absolutely love it, but if I ever find myself in a must-fight situation in the real world, the last place I want to be is on the ground. I'd say that if you're looking for straightforward self-defense, a traditional Japanese Jiu-Jitsu form seems like the best way to go. They practice joint-locks, chokes and so on like BJJ, but they'll teach you to use these things on your feet, and confront potentially multiple assailants.

If you're looking to get in shape, the number one thing to look at is the school's fighters. Whether it's boxing, kickboxing, or MMA, combat sports are some of the most intense, grueling physical activities you'll ever see in competition: if a trainer's conditioning program is lacking, it will show in their fighters' records. I'm training to kickbox right now, and my trainer's a two-time ISKA world champion who's trained over a dozen other world champions, both professional and amateur. I thought I was in shape before, but the workout is like nothing I could have ever imagined. I went in after four years of varsity high school athletics, having done pretty well in Swimming and Diving, and quite literally collapsed on the ground outside the first day in. Find yourself a school like that, and you'll have no problem getting in shape, assuming you stick to it.

That being said, if you just want to get in shape, the easiest way to find a sufficiently intense training program will probably be looking for boxing gyms. Those guys work hard, and there's a lot of gyms out there. If you're looking for realistic self-defense techniques, see if you can find a place that trains (good) kickboxers. With any luck, whoever's teaching will also be able to give instruction in traditional martial arts, and you'll learn to fight with your entire body, not just your hands (actually, kickboxing will give you a greater range of hand techniques as well: there's no spinning backfist in boxing).

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby BlackSails » Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:34 pm UTC

bieber wrote:
BlackSails wrote:The MA with the best quality controls at the moment though, is Brazillian Jiujutsu.

Maybe, but it's also the style with the least practical application. Don't get me wrong: I practice some BJJ, and absolutely love it, but if I ever find myself in a must-fight situation in the real world, the last place I want to be is on the ground. I'd say that if you're looking for straightforward self-defense, a traditional Japanese Jiu-Jitsu form seems like the best way to go. They practice joint-locks, chokes and so on like BJJ, but they'll teach you to use these things on your feet, and confront potentially multiple assailants.


Krav Maga incorporates quite a bit of groundfighting, as do many of the kyokyushin derviatives.

You might also want to know that BJJ is taught to the Marines.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby bieber » Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:07 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:Krav Maga incorporates quite a bit of groundfighting, as do many of the kyokyushin derviatives.

So? Groundfighting is a fun challenge, and it's useful if you find yourself taken to the ground, but it should always be a last resort. Once you're on the ground, it doesn't matter how good you are at taking on your opponent if there are others on their feet stomping/kicking/bludgeoning/stabbing you.
You might also want to know that BJJ is taught to the Marines.

Once again, how does this matter? It's a useful skill of last resort, but it's not a practical system for all-around self-defense. I'm sure the Marines are also taught a lot of stand-up fighting, but they're far from martial arts experts either way. When was the last time you heard of a marine being killed in hand-to-hand combat? The vast majority of their training is going to be relevant to typical modern combat situations, where projectile weapons and explosives are almost always available and used. The fact that they also happen to know some rudimentary grappling techniques has no bearing on the effectiveness of any particular martial arts discipline for civilians.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby BlackSails » Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:08 am UTC

bieber wrote:So? Groundfighting is a fun challenge, and it's useful if you find yourself taken to the ground, but it should always be a last resort. Once you're on the ground, it doesn't matter how good you are at taking on your opponent if there are others on their feet stomping/kicking/bludgeoning/stabbing you.


Krav Maga doesnt do "fun challenge." It teaches groundwork because groundwork is necessary for fighting.

First off - if you are fighting multiple armed oppoenents, it doesnt matter what martial art you do. The best thing to know in that case is parkour.

Secondly, in the much more common scenario of a 1v1 fight, going to ground gives you far more options. You can restrain your opponent without harm (such as with a triangle choke, or knee-on belly position). You can also, in far less time than it takes to neutralize an opponent while standing, take their arm off at the elbow or shoulder (armbar or kimura).

The fact that they also happen to know some rudimentary grappling techniques has no bearing on the effectiveness of any particular martial arts discipline for civilians.

So it doesnt matter what is used in full-contact competition (UFC, PRIDE, etc), it doesnt matter what is used by the military (Krav Maga, BJJ). What exactly makes you think one martial art is more effective than another?

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Nath » Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:54 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:First off - if you are fighting multiple armed oppoenents, it doesnt matter what martial art you do. The best thing to know in that case is parkour.

Running away should be plan A whether you're fighting one opponent or ten. Even if you think you can win. Self defence only applies when, for whatever reason, you have no other options. The use of force when there are alternatives is fighting, not self defence.

BlackSails wrote:Secondly, in the much more common scenario of a 1v1 fight, going to ground gives you far more options. You can restrain your opponent without harm (such as with a triangle choke, or knee-on belly position). You can also, in far less time than it takes to neutralize an opponent while standing, take their arm off at the elbow or shoulder (armbar or kimura).

First, what makes you think 1v1 fights are the most common scenario? If someone is seriously attacking you, they will almost certainly have an advantage up their sleeve. Usually a friend or a weapon. If he has an unseen weapon and the fight goes to the ground, you will almost certainly die. If he has an accomplice, you may not even know about him until he stomps your head.

This page has more on the dangers of thinking that groundfighting is self-defence.

(Oh, and there are ways to neutralize an opponent without going all the way to the ground.)

This isn't to say that there's no reason to study groundwork. I love groundwork. I used to be in a standing-only school, and figured that I'd always be able to wriggle free and stand up if I found myself on the ground. Then I went to a groundwork-heavy school, and discovered that it wasn't nearly that simple. I think that it's important to understand the principles of grappling, as long as you realize that it's a last resort. It's also really useful for law enforcement types, who usually have numbers on their side, but want to avoid causing injury.

Besides, studying martial arts for self defence is a dubious thing to do anyway. I wonder if, on the whole, it does more harm than good. Most 'self-defense' schools seem to teach techniques of the form 'he does this, then you do this...'; this is a doomed approach, because you can't enumerate all possible attacks. Besides, there's no litmus test. All the lethal neck-snaps and throat-strikes and bone-breaks and eye-gouges go completely untested, of course. Little practice time is devoted to facing a determined attacker who doesn't tell you in advance what he's planning. And less time still is spent on the most important aspects of self-defence: how to spot and defuse or avoid potentially violent situations; the legal and ethical consequences of using force.

People walk out of these schools thinking that they can take on the world, when they can't even throw a decent punch. If they knew how defenceless they were, perhaps they'd use more common sense and stay out of trouble.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby bieber » Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:45 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:First off - if you are fighting multiple armed oppoenents, it doesnt matter what martial art you do. The best thing to know in that case is parkour.

Count the "armed" part as a mis-type. Point still stands, though: real life isn't always going to give you a single opponent
Secondly, in the much more common scenario of a 1v1 fight, going to ground gives you far more options. You can restrain your opponent without harm (such as with a triangle choke, or knee-on belly position). You can also, in far less time than it takes to neutralize an opponent while standing, take their arm off at the elbow or shoulder (armbar or kimura).

You'd be surprised how little time it actually takes to "neutralize an opponent" when you're talking about bare-knuckle or bare-foot contact, especially when you consider the fact that your typical assailant probably has no idea how to actually fight. And as an added bonus, if you achieve a standing up knockout, you're still standing up at the end of it, which is immensely helpful if you don't want to have your head caved in while you're lying helpless on the ground.

So it doesnt matter what is used in full-contact competition (UFC, PRIDE, etc), it doesnt matter what is used by the military (Krav Maga, BJJ). What exactly makes you think one martial art is more effective than another?

No, it doesn't matter. I don't know about you, but when I'm evaluating something's effectiveness, I look at the thing itself, not what other people in completely different situations use. I don't know about you, but I've never found myself worrying about getting into a fight that involves being ambush-tackled by an insurgent in Iraq. And I've certainly never found myself worrying about getting into a fight with a trained opponent, wearing nothing but shorts, in an octagonal cage while being observed by a referee. Perhaps you run into these situations more often than me, but I was always under the impression that they only happened to people who either enlisted in the army or entered MMA competitions, respectively.

In any case, it's not like I'm trying to introduce some ground-breaking new concept here: it's common knowledge that groundfighting in a typical, real-world fight is a really, really bad idea.

Nath wrote:Running away should be plan A whether you're fighting one opponent or ten. Even if you think you can win. Self defence only applies when, for whatever reason, you have no other options. The use of force when there are alternatives is fighting, not self defence.

Depends. Even if you can escape a situation, it doesn't mean that someone you love will be able to. If you can get out of something scot-free, then by all means flee, but unfortunately it doesn't always end up working that way.

Besides, studying martial arts for self defence is a dubious thing to do anyway. I wonder if, on the whole, it does more harm than good. Most 'self-defense' schools seem to teach techniques of the form 'he does this, then you do this...'; this is a doomed approach, because you can't enumerate all possible attacks. Besides, there's no litmus test. All the lethal neck-snaps and throat-strikes and bone-breaks and eye-gouges go completely untested, of course. Little practice time is devoted to facing a determined attacker who doesn't tell you in advance what he's planning. And less time still is spent on the most important aspects of self-defence: how to spot and defuse or avoid potentially violent situations; the legal and ethical consequences of using force.

People walk out of these schools thinking that they can take on the world, when they can't even throw a decent punch. If they knew how defenceless they were, perhaps they'd use more common sense and stay out of trouble.

A martial arts school that will tell you it's all about self defense probably isn't a place you want to train in the first place. Theory, of course, is only any good if it's accompanied by enough sparring to put it to good use. If you know how to fight, one way or the other, the hardest part is just being confident about it, and knowing you can take and return blows if necessary. Once you've got a good grasp of fighting someone in a controlled scenario, it's not a big stretch to go from knocking-each-other-around-with-padded-gloves-and-shinguards to modifying those techniques to cause massive harm, if needed. Just shift that leg kick a few inches south, and strike to the knee instead of the thigh. Or throw the ridge-hand strike without a glove, and hit right up in the neck, or so on and so forth. And as far as legal and ethical consequences, well, that's really more of a personal responsibility. No martial arts teacher can tell you when it's justified to use force, because that's a personal decision.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby BlackSails » Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:42 pm UTC

bieber wrote:You'd be surprised how little time it actually takes to "neutralize an opponent" when you're talking about bare-knuckle or bare-foot contact, especially when you consider the fact that your typical assailant probably has no idea how to actually fight. And as an added bonus, if you achieve a standing up knockout, you're still standing up at the end of it, which is immensely helpful if you don't want to have your head caved in while you're lying helpless on the ground.


I wouldnt be surprised at all. Tell me though, when is the last time you knocked out a training partner?

In any case, it's not like I'm trying to introduce some ground-breaking new concept here: it's common knowledge that groundfighting in a typical, real-world fight is a really, really bad idea.


And it was "common knowledge" before UFC 1, when Gracie destroyed everyone, that a grappler would always lose to a striker, because you can just knee them in the face when they try to take you down.

If an opponent tries to take you down, you better either know how to sprawl, or how to fight on the ground. Otherwise, the fight will likely look like this:

Kung Fu Master/Generic Striker: Feints, kicks grappler.
BJJer/Samboist/Generic Grappler: Shoots in, double leg takedown.
Striker: Goes for knee to the face, misses (its a very low percentage move) or elbow to the spine (doesnt actually work)
Grappler: Passes guard, (striker doesnt know how to stop that)
Grappler: Breaks whatever bones he wants, or just sits on Striker's chest and does ground and pound.

This is how many of the fights in UFC1 went. This is why people like Anderson Silvia and Lyoto Machida, both excellent strikers (Silvia is a muay thai expert, and Machida is a karate expert), also have black belts in BJJ.

Nath wrote:Running away should be plan A whether you're fighting one opponent or ten. Even if you think you can win. Self defence only applies when, for whatever reason, you have no other options. The use of force when there are alternatives is fighting, not self defence.


Little practice time is devoted to facing a determined attacker who doesn't tell you in advance what he's planning

This is what is known as "sparring" against a "fully resisting opponent."

And I've certainly never found myself worrying about getting into a fight with a trained opponent, wearing nothing but shorts, in an octagonal cage while being observed by a referee. Perhaps you run into these situations more often than me, but I was always under the impression that they only happened to people who either enlisted in the army or entered MMA competitions, respectively.
[/quote]
Being stuck in a cage with a opponent wearing shorts isnt all that different from getting stuck in a club's bathroom with an asshole who thinks you were making a pass at his girl.
And this is exactly why BJJ trains both gi and no-gi.

Modifying a punch to go from medium to full contact is way harder than modifying a kneebar to go from tapping to "you will never use that knee again." In the former case, the distancing is all off. In the latter, its just a matter of moving your hips another inch. (The difference between tap and break is so low for kneebars and other leg joint attacks that they are banned until brown belt in BJJ. Some MA like Sambo and catch wrestling start them earlier though)

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby bieber » Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:51 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:I wouldnt be surprised at all. Tell me though, when is the last time you knocked out a training partner?

Is false analogy your hobby or something? I spar training partners wearing padded gloves, hand wraps, shin guards, and a mouthpiece. I've certainly not knocked anyone out, but it's not uncommon to daze an opponent by accidentally striking too hard to the temple or jaw. Without gloves, and with full strength, knockouts happen fast. Street fights don't last long.
And it was "common knowledge" before UFC 1, when Gracie destroyed everyone, that a grappler would always lose to a striker, because you can just knee them in the face when they try to take you down.

Once again, irrelevant. These people are fighting in controlled situations. If I know, for a fact, that there's nobody else around who could possibly attack me from a standing position while on the ground, I'll consider taking an opponent to the ground and breaking some shit (it's not for lack of grappling technique that I'm telling you to avoid grappling, after all). The odds of that happening, however, are just about nil.

Being stuck in a cage with a opponent wearing shorts isnt all that different from getting stuck in a club's bathroom with an asshole who thinks you were making a pass at his girl.
And this is exactly why BJJ trains both gi and no-gi.

Yeah, you have fun rolling around on the bathroom floor. Just keep in mind that if you go for a takedown in an enclosed space like that, the guy doesn't have to be any good at fighting at all: all he has to do is flail around enough before going down that you just happen to hit your head on a counter or something porcelain on the way down, and it's lights out. Then, assuming you get him to the ground alright, you have to worry about one of his friends walking in unexpectedly and coming to his "defense."
Modifying a punch to go from medium to full contact is way harder than modifying a kneebar to go from tapping to "you will never use that knee again." In the former case, the distancing is all off. In the latter, its just a matter of moving your hips another inch. (The difference between tap and break is so low for kneebars and other leg joint attacks that they are banned until brown belt in BJJ. Some MA like Sambo and catch wrestling start them earlier though)

If you're throwing your punches at different distances when sparring and hitting with full force, you're doing it wrong. If you don't want to knock a sparring opponent out, you put less power behind the punch, but you should always be aiming for slightly less than full extension of the arm. It's actually funny you mention hips, because the extra rotation that it takes to turn a cross into a full-power blow is also just a slight change of the hip motion. Besides, no one ever said you had to knock them out with a punch. Leverage isn't the only way to destroy a knee, you know ;)

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby BlackSails » Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:02 pm UTC

bieber wrote:
BlackSails wrote:I wouldnt be surprised at all. Tell me though, when is the last time you knocked out a training partner?

Is false analogy your hobby or something? I spar training partners wearing padded gloves, hand wraps, shin guards, and a mouthpiece. I've certainly not knocked anyone out, but it's not uncommon to daze an opponent by accidentally striking too hard to the temple or jaw. Without gloves, and with full strength, knockouts happen fast.


Dazing is a far cry from being knocked out.

Street fights don't last long.

[Citation Needed]

Yeah, you have fun rolling around on the bathroom floor. Just keep in mind that if you go for a takedown in an enclosed space like that, the guy doesn't have to be any good at fighting at all: all he has to do is flail around enough before going down that you just happen to hit your head on a counter or something porcelain on the way down, and it's lights out. Then, assuming you get him to the ground alright, you have to worry about one of his friends walking in unexpectedly and coming to his "defense."


Its far more likely, since the person doing the takedown is in control, and behind the other person (velocity is away from the takedowner, going through the takwdownee) that the other person hits his head.

And I dont know about you, but in general, friends dont follow friends into the bathroom, unless they are so drunk that they need help vomiting into the proper area. In which case, I doubt the guy is fighting you.

but you should always be aiming for slightly less than full extension of the arm


Duh, anything else is just asking for elbow problems.

Leverage isn't the only way to destroy a knee, you know


Its by far the easiest and most reliable.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby bieber » Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:25 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:Dazing is a far cry from being knocked out.

So I take it you missed the whole wearing-padded-gloves-and-not-striking-with-full-force part, then?
[Citation Needed]

Sorry, I take that bit of information directly from people who know what they're talking about, not the Internet :/
Its far more likely, since the person doing the takedown is in control, and behind the other person (velocity is away from the takedowner, going through the takwdownee) that the other person hits his head.

Either way, is it a risk you're willing to take?

And I dont know about you, but in general, friends dont follow friends into the bathroom, unless they are so drunk that they need help vomiting into the proper area. In which case, I doubt the guy is fighting you.

Things get a little bit different when the friend is going into the bathroom to try and start a fight with someone. And seriously, does this particular scenario even matter? If your whole argument is "my system is great if you happen to be in an area with no one else around, fighting an unarmed attacker," I think you might need to rethink your premises. What good does that do you in the other 98% of situations? Also, you fail to take into account that oftentimes, you don't actually know if your opponent has a weapon concealed somewhere, and if they do, it's going to be a much, much bigger problem if you're pressed close together on the ground, where you can't see their entire body and there's no way to escape a stabbing.
Duh, anything else is just asking for elbow problems.

Okay, so where's this great difference in striking distance between medium-contact and full-force that you're talking about? Because if you're training properly, there shouldn't be one...

Its by far the easiest and most reliable.

It's definitely the most reliable, but I think we need to consider the definition of "easiest." If you take it to mean "requiring the least force," then you're absolutely correct. If, however, you consider factors such as your vulnerability when executing the maneuver and the level of commitment involved in attempting it, it's far from the easiest. Before you can use a knee-bar, you have to get your opponent to the ground, which means you have to commit to taking the fight to the ground. Once you're down, there's a good chance that you're not going to be able to get up again afterwards. What if your opponent turns out to be a more skilled ground-fighter than you? What if they turn out to have a knife? What if more assailants appear? There are a million things that can go wrong in a fight, and they're all going to be best dealt with from a standing position, where you have the ability to quickly change tactics, engage more opponents, or flee if necessary. Something goes wrong on the ground, and you may never end up on your feet again.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby BlackSails » Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:54 pm UTC

bieber wrote:
BlackSails wrote:Dazing is a far cry from being knocked out.

So I take it you missed the whole wearing-padded-gloves-and-not-striking-with-full-force part, then?


Ive seen nothing that equates being dazed with glove to being knocked out without gloves.

[Citation Needed]

Sorry, I take that bit of information directly from people who know what they're talking about, not the Internet :/

How many street fights has your sensei or whomever told you this been in?

Either way, is it a risk you're willing to take?

Whenever you fight, you take a risk. If you choose to stand up, you take the risk of being knocked down into a porcelain surface.

There are a million things that can go wrong in a fight, and they're all going to be best dealt with from a standing position, where you have the ability to quickly change tactics, engage more opponents, or flee if necessary. Something goes wrong on the ground, and you may never end up on your feet again.


I dont know about you, but I can stand up from the ground in a very small amount of time. On the ground, I can shrimp, I can roll, I can kick. I can kick, and use the force that results from kicking someone to stand up even faster.


Just out of curiosity, what is your MA background, and how often do you spar realisticlly? (Meaning full contact with minimal equipment)

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby bieber » Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:12 pm UTC

How many street fights has your sensei or whomever told you this been in?

Honestly, I have no idea what the cumulative total is: I only know that I've heard around a dozen actually spoken about. Those, of course, are only the ones that have something amusing about them to make them worth telling. Sensei is a relatively small guy (probably 5' 10", and when he was fighting, he fought at 140lbs.), and people, unfortunately enough for them, have a bad habit of thinking he's not physically a threat. Needless to say, that combined with world-class fighting skills make for some interesting stories. The most important thing I think I've gotten out of all of them is that you never, ever want to start shit with somebody you don't know, because you never know who could end up kicking your ass. Badly.
I dont know about you, but I can stand up from the ground in a very small amount of time. On the ground, I can shrimp, I can roll, I can kick. I can kick, and use the force that results from kicking someone to stand up even faster.

Me too. As many friggin sprawls as I've had to do in training, I can get up really fast. But you know, if I were being kicked in the face from above, I probably wouldn't get up so quickly.

Just out of curiosity, what is your MA background, and how often do you spar realisticlly? (Meaning full contact with minimal equipment)

Personally, I've only been training for about six months now, unless you count some TKD as a kid. I spar twice a week, with the equipment mentioned above.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:32 pm UTC

Not to derail the "My sensei is tougher than your sensei" discussion, but I figured I'd just briefly weigh in with my own MA experience while I got the chance.

8 years Shinzen-Ryu Goshin-Do. When I was last training regularly, I was given some teaching responsibility, mostly handling the Whites, and helping the OGBs with light sparring. Due to my remarkable mass, I was often the Uki for the black belts, when they felt like stabbing a gummi bear.

I want to get back into it next spring (giving myself until then to lose my ass some weight).

I'll hold off on the streetfighting stories for now.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Avelion » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:17 pm UTC

Hoping to start Yang style Tai Chi Chuan in the next few weeks. Should be interesting.
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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Nath » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:19 pm UTC

bieber wrote:Depends. Even if you can escape a situation, it doesn't mean that someone you love will be able to. If you can get out of something scot-free, then by all means flee, but unfortunately it doesn't always end up working that way.

Fair point. I guess it depends on whether you consider leaving someone else in trouble to be a valid alternative. If you don't, then my point still stands.

bieber wrote:A martial arts school that will tell you it's all about self defense probably isn't a place you want to train in the first place.

A good martial arts school would tell you that. A great many schools, though, actually market themselves as being for self-defence.

bieber wrote:Once you've got a good grasp of fighting someone in a controlled scenario, it's not a big stretch to go from knocking-each-other-around-with-padded-gloves-and-shinguards to modifying those techniques to cause massive harm, if needed.

This depends on what sort of system you study. Many schools study 'lethal' techniques that cannot be tested through sparring.

Besides, you will fight as you train. I once heard of a police officer who carried out a textbook weapon disarm, and then automatically handed the weapon back to the suspect (as he'd done in practice countless times before). If you train to kick people in the thigh, you will kick people in the thigh.

bieber wrote:And as far as legal and ethical consequences, well, that's really more of a personal responsibility. No martial arts teacher can tell you when it's justified to use force, because that's a personal decision.

Not entirely, no. Ethics are a largely a personal matter, but legality and safety are not subjective.

BlackSails wrote:This is what is known as "sparring" against a "fully resisting opponent."

I think sparring is an excellent thing to do, regardless of object (sport, defence, fitness). However, most schools that focus on sparring tend to have a sports focus. Self-defence-oriented schools spend a lot of time on 'if he does this, then do that' scenarios.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:23 pm UTC

Hmm... Goshin-Do is designed to be an effective form of streetfighting / self-defense. I will have to launch into a better explanation sometime, when I'm not packing up to go home (not to trump any of you, but just to throw in my two cents).

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby bieber » Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:59 am UTC

Nath wrote:Besides, you will fight as you train. I once heard of a police officer who carried out a textbook weapon disarm, and then automatically handed the weapon back to the suspect (as he'd done in practice countless times before). If you train to kick people in the thigh, you will kick people in the thigh.

This is a good point. But then again, a good solid leg-kick will usually drop someone who's not expecting it anyway, so it's not of that much concern. Better not to inflict permanent damage if you can help it, I suppose
Not entirely, no. Ethics are a largely a personal matter, but legality and safety are not subjective.

This is true, but I'd still say that it falls beyond the purview of a martial arts school to teach it. It's sort of like...high school economics, to make a really bad analogy. They're going to teach you how markets work, but learning how to actually work in one is generally left as an exercise to the student. It's especially tricky here, because laws change from state to state, and country to country. If I were ever to fight outside the gym and/or the ring, I know that I'd want to make sure that there were witnesses around to attest to the other person striking first: I'd rather risk getting bruised or bloodied than going to jail. Of course, if it's a loved-one that's threatened, things change a little.
I think sparring is an excellent thing to do, regardless of object (sport, defence, fitness). However, most schools that focus on sparring tend to have a sports focus. Self-defence-oriented schools spend a lot of time on 'if he does this, then do that' scenarios.

If you think about it, that's generally the way things work, not just in martial arts but in every type of learning. You start by learning specific techniques by rote memorization, and then as you progress in knowledge and experience, you start to learn the more general techniques that you can use to derive the specific methods you were taught originally. In fifth grade, you could probably only find the volume of a limited subset of solids that you knew the formulas for. After multi-variable calc, though, you can derive all those formulas yourself, plus those for lots of other shapes. Same goes, I think, for the martial arts.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Nath » Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:57 am UTC

bieber wrote:This is a good point. But then again, a good solid leg-kick will usually drop someone who's not expecting it anyway, so it's not of that much concern. Better not to inflict permanent damage if you can help it, I suppose

Precisely. Better to train not-so-lethal techniques that you can actually practice and test than super-ultra-deadly-ninja techniques that should work really great in theory, but you haven't ever really tried.

bieber wrote:This is true, but I'd still say that it falls beyond the purview of a martial arts school to teach it.

Depends on what the school claims to teach. If they claim to cover self-defence, then I think they have a responsibility to put their techniques in context.

bieber wrote:If you think about it, that's generally the way things work, not just in martial arts but in every type of learning. You start by learning specific techniques by rote memorization, and then as you progress in knowledge and experience, you start to learn the more general techniques that you can use to derive the specific methods you were taught originally. In fifth grade, you could probably only find the volume of a limited subset of solids that you knew the formulas for. After multi-variable calc, though, you can derive all those formulas yourself, plus those for lots of other shapes. Same goes, I think, for the martial arts.

This is how it should work. I'm not convinced that it often does (either in mathematics or martial arts :)).

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Account20151023 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:21 pm UTC

I'm self-taught capoeira (which consequently got me into breakdancing), but since my wrists gave out a couple years back, I can't do any of the arial stuff as much anymore. So I've been teaching myself tonfa, nunchaku, and short and long blade fighting, specifically trying to combine styles. I've been in a bunch of fights, but never lost any (been pretty badly injured one time). Don't take that as bragging, I've never fought anyone who's been trained in any capacity. Just your standard asshole.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby studyinserendipity » Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:31 pm UTC

I got into BJJ & submission grappling last year. Most of our stuff was groundwork, and although I can't imagine doing any of the moves 'in real life', I really really liked it. Having only done epee fencing previously, where you have lots of space between you and an opponent, I was surprised how much I enjoyed being in full contact with an opponent. It's given me a good deal of confidence too, not necessarily in the "I'm going to hit this guy because I'm badass" way, but more of the "if someone sketchy tries to do anything to me I don't like, I may throw an elbow" kind of way.
Unfortunately I'm moving away from the group I practiced with, so now I'm trying to find another place or MA to learn. I'm thinking either judo or tae kwon do; alot of the BJJers I trained with knew judo, but the tae kwon do place near me looks a bit more organized and demanding as a program. But I'll have to see their fighters in action before I make a decision.
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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby ZLVT » Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:32 am UTC

I was concidering martial arts, there's a TKM place at uni and an Aikido place nearby too, but when researching on wiki, I found that there are a lot of types of fightign which are rather simplistically categorised into grapling striking and mixed.
My question is, how many different style of fighting are there?

Also, does anyone teach the non-combative aspects of ninjutsu these days?
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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby BlackSails » Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:30 pm UTC

ZLVT wrote:I was concidering martial arts, there's a TKM place at uni and an Aikido place nearby too, but when researching on wiki, I found that there are a lot of types of fightign which are rather simplistically categorised into grapling striking and mixed.
My question is, how many different style of fighting are there?


Styles? There is basically striking, grappling and mixed, although different MAs do things differently. Stay away from aikido though, unless its one of those non-traditional combat aikido places that actually spars.

Also, does anyone teach the non-combative aspects of ninjutsu these days?


For all that is holy, stay away from ninjitsu. Very far away. The schools that offer ninjitsu are really no different than clubs that get lightsabers and pretend to be jedi.

If you really want to learn the non-combative aspects of ninjitsu, enlist in the army and get into the green berets.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Gunfingers » Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:34 pm UTC

And on that note: US Army Combatives. Can't speak for the efficacy personally, but i've heard good things.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby ZLVT » Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:49 pm UTC

then why so many different diciplins? surely if all martial arts teach either grappling striking or a mix, there woudl only really be 3 big martial arts?
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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:54 pm UTC

For the same reason that, since nearly every dish contains a starch, a meat, or a dairy, there should only be three different recipes.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby bieber » Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:07 am UTC

ZLVT wrote:then why so many different diciplins? surely if all martial arts teach either grappling striking or a mix, there woudl only really be 3 big martial arts?

Think of it in terms of non-martial arts. There are visual, auditory, and literary art forms (and, I have no doubt, some others that I'm leaving out). As a photographer, I'm a visual artist, but that doesn't mean that I'm the same as a painter: painters and I use many of the same principles of composition, lighting and so on, but we apply them in very different manners.

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Re: Self Defense in schools

Postby BlackSails » Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:06 pm UTC

btilly wrote:
If you want to pick up a martial art, I would suggest something soft like aikido.

Dear god no.

That way if you fight back, it won't necessarily look like you're fighting.


Thats because you wont be fighting. You will be having your ass kicked.

The soft martial arts tend to be about redirecting the other person's strength, throwing them, getting them in pins, etc.
Unfortunately learning enough martial arts to be useful in a fight will take you a while, and your problem is immediate.


This is XKCD. Apply some physics to the idea of "redirecting strength." It doesnt work. Yeah, you can parry a punch, but thats not aikido, thats blocking.

Think tai chi, judo or aikido.

Judo is quite hard. They slam you onto your heads and break your joints. Tai chi and aikido are useless in a fight.

I challenge you to show me a single video of aikido being applied against resisting, non compliant opponents.


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