The Martial Arts Thread

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Gunfingers » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:31 pm UTC

In Japanese karate (as compared to Okinawan karate) forms have "counts". Count 1: punch, count 2: step, count 3: step and punch. Or whatever. So if we were doing forms as a class the instructor would call out the count and we would perform that count. That's as close as we came to "synchronised forms". What i think you're describing, where everyone does the whole form at the same pace to look pretty, is a tournament karate thing. Unless you're talking about the very rigid type of controlled sparring sometimes referred to as "two-man forms" where one person performs a specific attack and the other performs a specific response.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Angua » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:44 pm UTC

We do it with counts and without the counts. If we're doing it without the counts, we still have to be in time with each other, down to the kias and the ending yame.
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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby NinjaArcana » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:11 pm UTC

Practicioners of complicated arts or skills tend to find some deeper meanings in them over time and with that you get a philosophical perspective on your craft.


Which ends usually with the philosophical findings being handed generation over generation.

In the case of asian martial arts I feel that a lot of the focus on the philosophical aspects might come from the fact that western cultures generally devour philosophical mysticism from wholeheartedly without second thought.


So far this thread only seems to be examining Asian MA which is nice enough... However what about other Martial Arts like Capoeira or Savate. It could be argued that Savate was created on the basis of sport. Capoeira was created in hiding through song and dance, but generally with the idea of really hurting your opponent. I'm not saying these two MA don't have philosophies; however, a lesser emphasis is placed on the philosophical side.

But I'm kind of at a loss in regards to the, "focus on philosophical aspects." Are you saying that Westerners embrace the philosophical parts? Or are you stating of an emphasis on philosophy in regards to Martial Arts due to Western influence?

If you look at recent, "Martial Arts," like SAMBO, and Krav Maga, compared to Kung Fu, you could say it is simply a list of techniques to maim and preferrably kill your opponents. However they are both relatively new, and if time is to be incorporated to Martial Arts for philosophical aspects to emerge, then they still have some time to expand.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby jbn » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:26 pm UTC

Simply put, I believe some westerners will swallow anything labeled "asian wisdom" or "asian culture" and consider it a personal revolution. Much the same as someone wrote before me, some things sound profound because they're translated.

This discussion spun from the discussion of kata and I believe kata are lacking from many western martial arts. Earlier discussion in this thread was on the dangers of full contact hard-ass sparring in MMA. The discussion goes where we take it.
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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby crowey » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:51 am UTC

Plus, for the vast majority of martial artists there is some expectation of karate Kid style "Aahhh Grasshopper" malarkey to be going on. Given that the majority of MA schools are run as commercial buisnesses/belt factories if there's demand there will be supply.

Back to kata, I'm not a big fan, I did them for years when I was doing TKD, and never particularly enjoyed them, apart from the occasional sweet combo.
At my current schools we do forms quickly as a drill in the warm up to practice good stances and transitions between them, but not much else. Those are done as a class and in in time or to the count of the instructor.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Nath » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:20 am UTC

This thread [bullshido.net] has a pretty good explanation of why kata can be useful:
Ryno wrote:As a two-person kata, it is simply a way to demonstrate that you understand the base movements, and and are familiar with various sets of techniques. It's a system of categorization so that techniques don't get lost between instructor and student.

This last point is what makes kata worthwhile. Some (most) Judoka rarely use certain techniques, as they might not suit their body type or fighting style. This means that if there were no established kata/curriculum, they may not even teach these techniques to student who may find them useful. Kata ensures that core elements (and terms for techniques to enhance communication between judoka) be taught to all.

It's funny: both early judo (pre Fusen ryu ass-kicking) and current BJJ (hopefully soon to become 'early BJJ') were pretty skewed in opposite directions because they were built around their respective founders' specific fighting styles. Katas are supposed to keep future teachers from overspecializing, but if your art's founders do it, you're kind of screwed.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby 0range » Sat Nov 01, 2008 7:03 am UTC

Nath wrote:Katas are supposed to keep future teachers from overspecializing, but if your art's founders do it, you're kind of screwed.


I think this is probably just another indication that it is in one's best interest to train in a variety of martial arts from a variety of teachers.

Often times people will not even realize that their martial art is limited. I certainly did not (then again, I was younger and much more arrogant) until I started training with different teachers from different backgrounds. For instance, I had the pleasure of working with a few bouncers one night, and as everything was geared toward non-violent bodily removal, the techniques were quite different and eye-opening from experiences I'd had in previous training.
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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Patman » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:11 am UTC

Kata was a big part of the first MA I ever did, George 'Belt Factory' Dilman affiliated Ryuku Kempo. I found it quite satisfying to perfect Kata. In retrospect I would have preferred to have perfected something like salsa. Salsa is far sexier than Kata. There plenty of representative drills or 'circuits' in BJJ (esp. through John B. Will/Machado BJJ which has had a western style syllabus for a long good while).

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Daojia » Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:19 am UTC

I studied Hapkido for three years and found the forms interesting. There were only 4 throughout the syllabus but each one seemed to find a different spot on the 'Sweet Combo/Philosophical Understanding' Spectrum. Though there were no official 2-man forms, me and my brother both enjoyed running through singe forms in synchrony, or in mirror image (doing this with your identical twin can provide a lot of laughs). This led into our interest in pre-choreographed demonstrations.

In my experience they had little to do with the development of practical fighting ability but it addressed many of the finicky aspects of the forms that I enjoyed, it was similar in a lot of ways to dance, with the added perk of really exploring techniques and creatively chaining them together.

What does anyone else think?
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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Kachi » Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:42 am UTC

Oh hi, didn't see this thread... er... forum here.

I don't like martial arts classes. I've sat in on many, at many different schools, and they usually lack the thing that I actually crave-- actual experience. I know, liability and all, but even when I've done picks, they've been under very unrealistic circumstances (no striking, no guillotine).

I have practiced for the last decade or so on my own. I train pretty regularly, almost every day, but I really don't do enough conditioning. So I really don't have some cool Japanese style complete with belt, but I have managed to refine my own style. I do a lot of barehanded and non-kendo bokken training (which is also my own style). My barehanded style is actually based heavily on my sword style.

What conditioning I do is mainly focused on increasing the speed of attacks and parries, while maintaining power. I use mostly wide, sweeping parries that open up the opponents soft spots. Generally the goal is to open up the neck for a fast pound/chop, then take them down at the knees.

That's my more defensive style though. My offensive style is very brutal, and I don't even talk about it, because I don't want to give the wrong people any ideas.

Ok, enough of that. Story time.

My first BJJ pick was at a school in Clarksville, TN. It was supposed to be 4 minutes, grappling only with no guillotines. In the first few seconds I grabbed this guy's arm and locked him up, but I didn't know any way to take him down without guillotines, so I just held him there, for about a minute. Eventually he managed to slip out, and I rolled back onto my feet and we were face to face again. In a couple of seconds, I had him in the same lock. I decided to try to cut off circulation to his arm by squeezing tight on it while flexing my bicep. While we were just... sitting there... he turned to me, looking exasperated and asked, "Are you a logger?"

I was really confused. Did I hear him right? "What?" He repeated, "Are you a logger?"

"No."

So for the next three minutes, I sat there holding him in the same position as he tried to break free, trying not to laugh at the situation, and wondering why the hell he thought to ask if I was a logger (and really, wondering if I wasn't mistaken about what a logger was).

Probably the most boring fight to watch ever, but people were surprised that I had no experience with BJJ. That day, I decided that if for some insane reason I ever became a professional fighter, I would be known as...

The Logger! GRRRRRRR!

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby jbn » Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:31 am UTC

I also entirely lack a white suit and a belt. Seeing as how I practice Muay Thai, that's as it should be.

You'll have to forgive my skepticism when it comes to homecooked fighting. I believe it's quite possible to combine knowledge of different styles of fighting to become a wellrounded fighter, I also believe this can be hard when the styles differ greatly. It's relatively easy to combine general MMA-practice with Muay Thai as I understand it, I see people cross over between those classes a lot. It might be harder to apply variants of kung fu within MMA or Muay Thai. I haven't tried that, so I'm not sure.

If you've been in a lot of fights (real fights) I guess I can believe that you're the wrong person to pick a fight with, considering experience in actual situations can teach someone a lot and some people are rather dangerous in a fight without training. But I have a few too many friends who make bullshit claims about how hardass they are and how many fights they could win with the snap of their fingers to accept anything similar without skepticism, especially when you claim an offensive style that is so brutal that you don't want to talk about it. I do believe that lacking instruction, techniques have a high risk of being inferior.

The most brutal and realistic way of fighting I know that is taught to the general public would be Krav Maga. As straight forward as self defense gets I believe and the military variants would definately be considered brutal. The style is built for efficiency. That's what I would go for if I practiced primarily for self-defence.

Not trying to "start some shit". Your post just brought out my skepticism.
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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Patman » Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:24 pm UTC

Kachi wrote:I decided to try to cut off circulation to his arm by squeezing tight on it while flexing my bicep.

Why would you do this?

Kachi wrote:I didn't know any way to take him down without guillotines
A guillotine is usually a counter to a takedown... not a take down itself. Also it seems fair enough to me that your club won't let a 'munter' or 'logger' neck crank the truck out of someone. A good guillotine is a blood choke and not a crank but your average beginner won't care for the difference.

Kachi wrote:Generally the goal is to open up the neck for a fast pound/chop
This is a terrible Idea, say you succeed with a descent blow to the throat you could do some serious or fatal damage (spell prison). Secondly, how would you ever get to practice this to a point of proficiency?

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Kachi » Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:55 pm UTC

If you've been in a lot of fights (real fights) I guess I can believe that you're the wrong person to pick a fight with, considering experience in actual situations can teach someone a lot and some people are rather dangerous in a fight without training. But I have a few too many friends who make bullshit claims about how hardass they are and how many fights they could win with the snap of their fingers to accept anything similar without skepticism, especially when you claim an offensive style that is so brutal that you don't want to talk about it. I do believe that lacking instruction, techniques have a high risk of being inferior.


I can appreciate your skepticism, but unlike most fighters (that I've met) are prone to do, I'm not here to puff out my chest. Whether or not people on the internet think me a hardass or a pansy really makes absolutely no difference to me.

And when I say that my offensive style is brutal, I don't mean that I'm just such a badass, I'll snap someone like a twig. I mean the methods I use are "effective" at the expense of being arguably inhumane. Chances are that if you're really versed in fighting, you already know some of them anyway. Just the same, I don't want to go giving "badass wannabes" any ideas.

Why would you do this?


Because I was in a sort of stalemate position. I was going to just hold him there anyway-- I didn't know what else to do-- so I figured that at least if he broke free again, it would be better if his arm wasn't at 100%.

A guillotine is usually a counter to a takedown... not a take down itself. Also it seems fair enough to me that your club won't let a 'munter' or 'logger' neck crank the truck out of someone. A good guillotine is a blood choke and not a crank but your average beginner won't care for the difference.


I really can't appreciate the terminology-- it's another aspect of fighting that I never really cared for. I consider a guillotine a takedown, but I'm not up for a semantics lesson or debate (though I would like to know what a "munter" is). Anyway, nobody was allowed to do guillotines at all, for liability reasons I'm sure.

I'm aware that a guillotine is a blood choke. I would never risk damaging someone's neck in a sparring match.

This is a terrible Idea, say you succeed with a descent blow to the throat you could do some serious or fatal damage (spell prison). Secondly, how would you ever get to practice this to a point of proficiency?


My style is purely self defense (or defending others)-- it's not really competitive. If I use it, then it's because it warrants being used.

How to practice it? I don't see what's so hard about it. The most difficult part is parrying the attack, which is primarily a matter of being fast and powerful-- you drill it. I've drilled it nearly every day for the last several years. The next part is rebounding the parry into an attack. i.e., after you parry, say with your left arm, how quickly can you attack from the inside with that arm. I drill with a heavy bag-- full parry into the bag to simulate resistance, contact, and rebound-- then do the attack. Basically, you just don't want to practice with all shadowboxing only to find that when you actually parry someone, it hurts your arm/wrist/hand so much that you can't move directly into the strike.

Then it's just a matter of not missing, which again, comes down largely to being fast and catching them off guard while their defenses are down.

I'd like a wing chun dummy to practice with, but can't afford it.

Honestly I'm a bit surprised that you point out how dangerous it can be, because if it doesn't do lasting or fatal damage, it's one of the tamest moves I use.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Patman » Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:02 am UTC

Kachi wrote:Because I was in a sort of stalemate position. I was going to just hold him there anyway-- I didn't know what else to do-- so I figured that at least if he broke free again, it would be better if his arm wasn't at 100%.
I think you miss the point of sparring. The point is to practice proper technique under stress. Not to prove your awesomeness. Also it would take a disproportionate amount of energy to 'choke' out someones arm for any benefit you may receive.

Kachi wrote:I don't want to go giving "badass wannabes" any ideas.
It doesn't take much of an imagination to think of horrible things that can hurt someone, so there's is no need to censor us from your creativity.

Kachi wrote:How to practice it? I don't see what's so hard about it. The most difficult part is parrying the attack, which is primarily a matter of being fast and powerful-- you drill it.
Real people react, no wobbly swinging bags will substitute this properly.

Kachi wrote:Honestly I'm a bit surprised that you point out how dangerous it can be, because if it doesn't do lasting or fatal damage, it's one of the tamest moves I use.

If you are striking some one in the trachea you can cause lasting or fatal damage. Read here... http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drryan22.htm

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Kachi » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:00 am UTC

I think you miss the point of sparring. The point is to practice proper technique under stress. Not to prove your awesomeness.


Eh? What did I say to make you think that there was any misconception here?

Also it would take a disproportionate amount of energy to 'choke' out someones arm for any benefit you may receive.


In a 4 minute pick, given that I had him held and could keep him there with little resistance, I had energy to spare. It was time I was working against.

But yes, it did prove to be pretty futile.

It doesn't take much of an imagination to think of horrible things that can hurt someone, so there's is no need to censor us from your creativity.


Yeah, fine, then again I'll pass. If you can already imagine them, no reason for me to bring them up. In fact, I can think of no good reason to bring them up at all.

Real people react, no wobbly swinging bags will substitute this properly.


Well first of all, my bag is anything but wobbly. I use a wavemaster type, with ~270 lbs. at a low center of gravity. Secondly, the idea is to be fast enough to supersede their reaction. Depending on how defensive they are, they might not even deviate from their initial attack if the parry is executed to allow the strike to connect against you anyway. In which case it's you getting hit someplace relatively minor in exchange for them getting hit in the neck or throat.

If you are striking some one in the trachea you can cause lasting or fatal damage.


Yes, I'm already well aware. If someone has put me in a situation where I've resolved to fight them, then they've managed to earn that risk.

I don't go around looking for fights. I don't like hurting people.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Nath » Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:25 am UTC

Kachi wrote:
I think you miss the point of sparring. The point is to practice proper technique under stress. Not to prove your awesomeness.


Eh? What did I say to make you think that there was any misconception here?

The bit where you tried to choke the guy's arm because you were both stalling?

Kachi wrote:Well first of all, my bag is anything but wobbly. I use a wavemaster type, with ~270 lbs. at a low center of gravity. Secondly, the idea is to be fast enough to supersede their reaction. Depending on how defensive they are, they might not even deviate from their initial attack if the parry is executed to allow the strike to connect against you anyway. In which case it's you getting hit someplace relatively minor in exchange for them getting hit in the neck or throat.

Sure, there's much to be gained from bag training, but don't you agree that it's a far cry from sparring with a live opponent? Speaking of which, how often have you sparred with a live opponent?

I'm with jbn here. It's entirely possible that you've discovered something great, but in general I am skeptical of people who've invented their own fighting system waving a stick around in their garage. Even if they are loggers.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby BlackSails » Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:59 pm UTC

Nath wrote:I'm with jbn here. It's entirely possible that you've discovered something great, but in general I am skeptical of people who've invented their own fighting system waving a stick around in their garage. Even if they are loggers.


And espically when they want to use _ing _un dummies for training.


What conditioning I do is mainly focused on increasing the speed of attacks and parries, while maintaining power. I use mostly wide, sweeping parries that open up the opponents soft spots. Generally the goal is to open up the neck for a fast pound/chop, then take them down at the knees.


How do your wide, swining parries open the opponent but not yourself, and how do you take someone down at the knees if they know how to sprawl?

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby jbn » Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:33 pm UTC

I don't have a lot of technical know-how in the realm of MA but I was wondering when someone would question the wide sweeping parries. It didn't sound like something I'd do, but then again, the only techniques in Muay Thai (which is currently what I practice) that I'd call even sort of sweepy are our roundhouse kicks. When it comes to parries or rather blocking it's short, simple movements to minimize shifting your weight and maximize a solid speedy block.
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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Kachi » Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:50 am UTC

The bit where you tried to choke the guy's arm because you were both stalling?


I don't follow your logic. Why does trying this demonstrate that I'm trying to show my awesomeness?

And we weren't stalling. We were in a stalemated lock. I had control of him but didn't know how to bring him down, and he couldn't get out.

Sure, there's much to be gained from bag training, but don't you agree that it's a far cry from sparring with a live opponent? Speaking of which, how often have you sparred with a live opponent?


I do agree, and I vastly prefer sparring. I don't get to spar much because I don't want to pay for classes where you only get to spar a few minutes a week. I really don't even have any interest in lessons in the first place.

I haven't had a legitimate sparring striking match in a very long time, but sometimes my brother humors me with one arm vs. one arm boxing matches, torso strikes only.

It's entirely possible that you've discovered something great, but in general I am skeptical of people who've invented their own fighting system waving a stick around in their garage.


Fair enough. I wasn't looking for any validation.

Even if they are loggers.


I can't tell if you're being cute or if "logger" is an actual term. :?

And espically when they want to use _ing _un dummies for training.


I want to use it for bone density training. That's all.

How do your wide, swining parries open the opponent but not yourself, and how do you take someone down at the knees if they know how to sprawl?


They do open me up, but I'm on the inside. The people I'd take down at the knees are most likely among the 99.999% of people who don't know how to sprawl. I guess if they do, it will fail and I'll have to go from there. Generally that's where it might go to the point that I'm doing things that I've already opted not to talk about.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Nath » Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:37 am UTC

Kachi wrote:I don't follow your logic. Why does trying this demonstrate that I'm trying to show my awesomeness?

And we weren't stalling. We were in a stalemated lock. I had control of him but didn't know how to bring him down, and he couldn't get out.

The only stalemates I've had while grappling were on the ground. When people are trying to take each other down, things only come to a standstill when both parties are fatigued, stalling, or being ridiculously defensive.

And when things do come to a genuine deadlock, you're not learning anything. It's better to reset and start again.

Kachi wrote:I do agree, and I vastly prefer sparring. I don't get to spar much because I don't want to pay for classes where you only get to spar a few minutes a week. I really don't even have any interest in lessons in the first place.

I can understand not wanting lessons, but don't any clubs in the area ever have open-mats or sparring days? A good school would probably have several hours of sparring a week.

Or, at least, you could invite some people to roll around in your garage or something.

Kachi wrote:I can't tell if you're being cute or if "logger" is an actual term. :?

Just being facetious.

Kachi wrote:They do open me up, but I'm on the inside. The people I'd take down at the knees are most likely among the 99.999% of people who don't know how to sprawl. I guess if they do, it will fail and I'll have to go from there. Generally that's where it might go to the point that I'm doing things that I've already opted not to talk about.

That would be one option. Another option would be to learn a greater variety of takedowns, and get good at them by practicing them on people. I'm not much of a striker, but I know that grappling can't be learned without a live opponent.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Kachi » Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:51 am UTC

The only stalemates I've had while grappling were on the ground. When people are trying to take each other down, things only come to a standstill when both parties are fatigued, stalling, or being ridiculously defensive.

And when things do come to a genuine deadlock, you're not learning anything. It's better to reset and start again.


We were on the ground. I tried to think of a way to turn the fight in my favor-- there were a few things that I knew I could do if I were really trying to take him down, but they were all against the rules. Unfortunately it came down to holding him there until I figured out a way to get him to submit, or just completely letting him go and starting over.

But yeah, I should have just let him go and try something else, in retrospect.

I can understand not wanting lessons, but don't any clubs in the area ever have open-mats or sparring days? A good school would probably have several hours of sparring a week.

Or, at least, you could invite some people to roll around in your garage or something.


Well I just moved here a couple of months ago, and with my new job I couldn't afford to join a school anyway. The last school I found did have open mats and I wanted to join, but I was still in a tight financial spot and I knew I'd be moving soon anyway.

I've looked for sparring partners, but nobody ever seems to want to.

Actually right now I'm looking into assistant coaching for a high school wrestling team. I know it's nothing like a real fight but it should be a good experience anyway.

That would be one option. Another option would be to learn a greater variety of takedowns, and get good at them by practicing them on people. I'm not much of a striker, but I know that grappling can't be learned without a live opponent.


Yeah, I've always been more of a striker. A few years ago I was really sold on BJJ and I thought I'd want to learn it, but there's really not much you can do without a school or willing sparring partner.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Patman » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:17 am UTC

Kachi wrote:We were on the ground. I tried to think of a way to turn the fight in my favor-- there were a few things that I knew I could do if I were really trying to take him down
I fail to see how you could take him any further down than the ground...

Actually right now I'm looking into assistant coaching for a high school wrestling team. I know it's nothing like a real fight but it should be a good experience anyway.

How about taking up wrestling first, might improve your chances of becoming an assistant. Wrestling is a great martial art.

MA Classes are not that expensive, I pay $60 a month (about 8 hours of tuition and 20 hours sparring).

but they were all against the rules

If you can do something against the rules, someone in control can definitely do something against the rules.

Blah,blah and blah, I'm Hangry.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Kachi » Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:30 am UTC

I fail to see how you could take him any further down than the ground...


Sorry, let me clarify. I was referring to getting him to submit/tap out.

How about taking up wrestling first, might improve your chances of becoming an assistant. Wrestling is a great martial art.

MA Classes are not that expensive, I pay $60 a month (about 8 hours of tuition and 20 hours sparring).


Not a lot is required to be an assistant in the first place, but I'm a little too old to take up wrestling. That is, there aren't really any classes I could take or a team I could join.

I might start touring local schools soon, but I have other things on my plate for the moment.

If you can do something against the rules, someone in control can definitely do something against the rules.


Yeah, but I was the one in control, and moves that are against the rules are practically my specialty.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby crowey » Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:39 am UTC

Awww, I want to spar with Kachi....

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Patman » Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:51 am UTC

Ahh Kachi, what you mean by takedown is known as a submission.
Submission arts are beautiful. There are heaps of different submissions and even more transitions into them.

BJJ is a physical language. Everybody sucks at Jiu Jitsu when they first start, more fluent people will submit you over and over for at least a good six months. You are losing and it sucks, these six months are the hardest part. Even some one with 3 months of decent training would have superior ground control over someone illiterate in grappling, I have seen this over and over.

Most of all submission fighting is fun and the inherently gentle nature of grappling (no strikes essentially) you can play at the right intensity for hours. You can't beat training that is fun.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby jbn » Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:02 pm UTC

Unrelated to the latest discussion:
Aaah, I currently enjoy the pain of a week of martial arts. I do four days of Muay Thai weekly when I can and this week I could. I'm having a hard time deciding if the warm shower after the entire session is a better feeling than drinking cold water directly after 2 minutes of heavy clinchsparring. I'm enjoying myself ridiculously and I enjoy the exhaustion, I even get an odd love for every little well-deserved bruise.

Compared to what competing Thaiboxers do I'm still a weak lil' rookie, but I'm happily working towards the status of hard-ass. Or whatever the official master title for Muay Thai might be. I think it might be hard-ass.

I'm just guessing that I'm not the only bastard in here that enjoys the pain of a practice session well done.
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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby studyinserendipity » Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:40 pm UTC

jbn wrote:I'm just guessing that I'm not the only bastard in here that enjoys the pain of a practice session well done.

not at all :) I've always liked it when my muscles are so exhausted that my legs and arms are tingly and I sleep like the dead that night.
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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby PhatPhungus » Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:02 pm UTC

I practice Kung Fu and Tai Chi, but it's probably not taught in the traditional style of either of these.

The most interesting of the two, for me, is definitely Tai Chi (Zhao Bao style), which, contrary to popular belief, actually does have practical merit beyond health benefits. We do a lot of wrestling, and although I haven't actually been in a real fight, nor do I have conclusive evidence to support this claim, I've heard that most fights end up on the ground. In any case, self defense in Tai Chi style is very different from self defense in any other martial art I've done (Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do). It's based on keeping yourself closed and tight, and redirecting other people's motion against them (which does actually work). My instructors master is incredible, when you wrestle with him, the harder you try, the more pain you end up in. The first time I wrestled with him, he got me in a headlock with his legs, and I was like "holyshit, if he wanted me to be, I would be dead". It was a very strange realization. Tai Chi also has standing applications, the most basic of which is keeping yourself rooted completely to the ground and completely connected (the same master can stand on one leg, and you can't push him over). There some strikes, but the strikes don't extend as far as in Kung Fu or Tae Kwon Do, so you don't open yourself up as much. There's also more grappling than in other martial arts.
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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Vi » Sun Nov 16, 2008 3:27 am UTC

PhatPhungus wrote:The first time I wrestled with him, he got me in a headlock with his legs, and I was like "holyshit, if he wanted me to be, I would be dead".

There is something to be said for that special bond of trust created when someone is in a position to kill you.


For Judo, even when sparring full out, there is little chance of injury (between two people who know what they're doing, anyway). This makes it a lot of fun.

As far as self defense goes, I think Judo has the merit of not hurting anyone and escalating things further. If I hit a guy, then he's likely to hit back, and so a striking art isn't such a good option for a fragile person. I know you bad-ass guys are concerned about assholes in bars who decide they want to kill you, and I can see where experience with striking can be good there, but for ladies a good skill is to be able to get out of a pin. You hear about the violent situations, but "gentle" things like date rape are much more common.

studyinserendipity wrote:
jbn wrote:I'm just guessing that I'm not the only bastard in here that enjoys the pain of a practice session well done.

not at all :) I've always liked it when my muscles are so exhausted that my legs and arms are tingly and I sleep like the dead that night.

Me, I like the feeling the morning after.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby jbn » Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:22 pm UTC

For self-defense I'd be inclined towards Krav Maga although I haven't tried it. I can't vouch for its efficiency but it should be pretty efficient considering what its real-life applications are (military and police use).

I think I'd do better in a streetfight since I started Muay Thai than before but I seriously hope I keep my anger in check and just run in that kind of situation. I have long damn legs and it's easier to run away than try and win a fight under conditions you've never experienced.

I've heard that there's a lot of injuries in Judo. Since I've no references on this I'm quite interested in other people's experience in martials arts with plenty of throws. My understanding is that there's a bit of a risk of bad landings causing injuries,torn ligaments in the arms and whatnot. I know what you mean with two people who know what they're doing though as that applies to striking-sparring as well. If the other person is a lot better than you, you will take a beating, but he should have enough control to not actually hurt you.

I also think this is the first time in my entire life that I can consider myself bundled with the group "bad-ass guys". *manly armpump* Oh yeah!

The pain from a practice session well done includes the feeling the morning after. And in my current state it's on its second day of sore muscles and general feel-good pains.
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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby crowey » Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:16 pm UTC

Vi wrote:I know you bad-ass guys are concerned about assholes in bars who decide they want to kill you, and I can see where experience with striking can be good there, but for ladies a good skill is to be able to get out of a pin. You hear about the violent situations, but "gentle" things like date rape are much more common.


You might want to re-phrase the bolded bit. sexism=bad.
Also, date rape often happens when the woman is incapacitated via drugs and/or alcohol, no amount of MA skill will help there.

Re:injuries. In my experience there are more small injuries in striking arts (I'm talking day to day club training, not competitions), split lips, black eyes, cracked knuckles etc. In grappling arts the injuries are less frequent but more severe, torn ligaments, dislocations etc.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby jbn » Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:52 pm UTC

That's a balanced view on the injury-aspect. It sounds reasonable, I've no idea as to what level of proof there might be for it but it appeals to my sense of symmetry.

My aching muscles from this weeks practice have calmed down considerably. They will probably feel pretty stiff come practice tomorrow, at least until they're properly warmed up. Looking forward to it.
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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby crowey » Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:10 pm UTC

I'm feeling jelous. I'm only allowed to train once a week at the moment. Even then I can't spar or grapple or do anything particularly gymnastic since I might fall and do my knee in again*.
I know it's good in the long run, but damn it's frustrating.
Running and gym sessions just don't cut the mustard, and no matter how hard I try I never get the aching for days afterwards thing. :|




*Tore my MCL and ACL skiing in March, I'm on light duties till April. :(

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby jbn » Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:55 pm UTC

That sucks hard. I can sympathise and I really hope I won't have to experience the same.

Also on a martial arts note: Watching crappy and semi-okay martial arts anime is a nice way to spend your time while resting up. Currently watching the rather awful Baki the Grappler and the stereotypical but amusing Kenichi. I'd love to find one that's a bit more technical, preferably with a focus on Muay Thai. Until then, I'll take what I can find.
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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Vi » Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:25 am UTC

crowey wrote:
Vi wrote:I know you bad-ass guys are concerned about assholes in bars who decide they want to kill you, and I can see where experience with striking can be good there, but for ladies a good skill is to be able to get out of a pin. You hear about the violent situations, but "gentle" things like date rape are much more common.


You might want to re-phrase the bolded bit. sexism=bad.
Also, date rape often happens when the woman is incapacitated via drugs and/or alcohol, no amount of MA skill will help there.

Re:injuries. in my experience there are more small injuries in striking arts (I'm talking day to day club training, not competitions), split lips, black eyes, cracked knuckles etc. In grappling arts the injuries are less frequent but more severe, torn ligaments, dislocations etc.

Ok, let me rephrase: Personally, in my experience as a woman, there has never been a time where I felt it would have been useful to actually hurt someone. However, there have been times when I've been glad to know how to tell a guy "no" in a language he understands, since English apparently doesn't always cut it.

As for injuries, once you get into the crazy throws, yeah that's an issue. Ground sparring is quite a bit safer, especially as the scarier joint locks aren't allowed. It's also more fun, in my opinion. And if you stick to the basic throws, standing is pretty safe too. At least in my experience we've never had anything hospital worthy, but we don't do much of the crazy stuff.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Nath » Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:27 am UTC

crowey wrote:You might want to re-phrase the bolded bit. sexism=bad.

I don't think that was inherently sexist. Statistically, men and women are mostly victims of different kinds of violence. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging this fact and taking it into account when training to protect yourself.

crowey wrote:Re:injuries. In my experience there are more small injuries in striking arts (I'm talking day to day club training, not competitions), split lips, black eyes, cracked knuckles etc. In grappling arts the injuries are less frequent but more severe, torn ligaments, dislocations etc.

I'd agree with that. Minor grappling injuries are not rare, but probably not as common as striking injuries.
It's also worth considering long-term, cumulative damage. Grappling is probably hard on the joints. Striking (to the head) has the whole brain damage thing going on.

Vi wrote:As for injuries, once you get into the crazy throws, yeah that's an issue. Ground sparring is quite a bit safer, especially as the scarier joint locks aren't allowed. It's also more fun, in my opinion. And if you stick to the basic throws, standing is pretty safe too. At least in my experience we've never had anything hospital worthy, but we don't do much of the crazy stuff.

Most of the significant grappling injuries I've seen weren't caused by particularly crazy throws. It wasn't even particularly high-intensity sparring. Sometimes you just have a body part in the wrong place at the wrong time, and it gets... squinched. (I hereby declare that a word.)

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby crowey » Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:34 am UTC

Vi wrote:Ok, let me rephrase: Personally, in my experience as a woman, there has never been a time where I felt it would have been useful to actually hurt someone. However, there have been times when I've been glad to know how to tell a guy "no" in a language he understands, since English apparently doesn't always cut it.


So what is this universal language you've learned through martial arts if it doesn't involve pain?
As a woman, the only time I've ever used my training outside of lessons was to translate "NO" into my universal language. It was very useful to actually hurt someone.

Nath wrote:
crowey wrote:You might want to re-phrase the bolded bit. sexism=bad.

I don't think that was inherently sexist. Statistically, men and women are mostly victims of different kinds of violence. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging this fact and taking it into account when training to protect yourself.

There is when the conclusions drawn from those statistics are wrong. "Women don't need to hurt people to defend themselves" is incorrect.
If anything I'd say the opposite was true. In bar brawls it'd be better to restrain your attacker, in an attempted rape maximum damage is the order of the day.

Also to suggest that grappling MA might be better for this is somewhat wrong too. If we're basing this on average woman Vs average man the man will be much stronger and heavier than the woman, which makes a lot of grappling skills less useful as he would be able to muscle his way out of them. Whereas a swift kick to the balls followed by a knee to the face is pretty much universal in success regardless of strenght and build.

Obviously grappling is still useful (realistically, probably equally useful as striking) but to say it's that much better is just plain wrong.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby Nath » Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:52 am UTC

crowey wrote:There is when the conclusions drawn from those statistics are wrong. "Women don't need to hurt people to defend themselves" is incorrect.
If anything I'd say the opposite was true. In bar brawls it'd be better to restrain your attacker, in an attempted rape maximum damage is the order of the day.

Also to suggest that grappling MA might be better for this is somewhat wrong too. If we're basing this on average woman Vs average man the man will be much stronger and heavier than the woman, which makes a lot of grappling skills less useful as he would be able to muscle his way out of them. Whereas a swift kick to the balls followed by a knee to the face is pretty much universal in success regardless of strenght and build.

Obviously grappling is still useful (realistically, probably equally useful as striking) but to say it's that much better is just plain wrong.

I haven't argued for or against Vi's conclusions. I just said they weren't inherently sexist. Arguably incorrect, but not because they are sexist.

(I haven't offered an opinion because I don't really want to get sucked into the grappling vs striking debate. I don't think it's really meaningful.)

For the record, though, I think grappling skills are more meaningful when you are at a weight disadvantage. Within limits, a skilled smaller person can control a larger one, even on the ground. An larger person needs no real skill to sit on a smaller person.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby crowey » Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:11 pm UTC

OK.
Vi wrote:I know you bad-ass guys

Assumption that everyone on the thread is male.
are concerned about assholes in bars who decide they want to kill you,

Assumption that this is why men do martial arts and/or this is when then need to apply them in real life.
Perhaps drawn from statistics, more likely drawn from stereotypes.
but for ladies

Condesending word for women, implying we are fragile delicate and behave nicely.

Albeit not the classic out there "Women are pathetic and need defending by a strong man" type sexism, but the small implicit things that drag us all down.

Plus, the conclusions (that I was arguing against in my last post) drawn from the earlier statements re-enforse that.

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Re: The Martial Arts Thread

Postby BlackSails » Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:39 pm UTC

There is nothing sexist about assuming that men and women find themselves in what are often very different self-defense situations.


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