How many pull ups can you do?

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How many pull ups can you do?

None
21
14%
1
10
7%
2
7
5%
3
9
6%
4
3
2%
5
12
8%
6
5
3%
7
6
4%
8
7
5%
9
4
3%
10
13
8%
11
5
3%
12
7
5%
13
2
1%
14
5
3%
15
6
4%
16
3
2%
17
2
1%
18
2
1%
19
1
1%
20
3
2%
21
1
1%
22
2
1%
23
0
No votes
24+
17
11%
 
Total votes: 153

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Peter_G
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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby Peter_G » Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:17 pm UTC

BOO! I'm back, I can do 4 pull ups now, and 60 pressups and 64 sit ups :)
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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby pullhard3r » Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:03 pm UTC

bippy wrote:
I have only climbed a dozen or so times so I wouldn't consider myself "a climber" but in my limited experience high rep pull-ups don't really translate to what I've done in climbing. ... I've not gone through anything tougher than a 5.13b/V8...


I'm going to pull a big fat BS flag on this one. I don't care what kind of shape you are in, you do not climb 5.13b/V8 by just doing it a dozen times. It usually takes 1-2 years if you are really good and climb consistently. If you were a climber, then you'd know that it takes that long to build up enough tendon strength to be able to pull moves of that difficulty. The movements themselves are trained through muscle memory, and it doesn't matter how much theory you know, you cannot pull V8 in a dozen sessions of climbing.

So bippy, I'm calling you out. Come to Boston and let's hit Metrorock, or let's go climb at Rumney and show me your skillz. If not, then stfu and stop spraying about your non-existent climbing ability.

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby folkhero » Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:30 pm UTC

pullhard3r wrote:
bippy wrote:
I have only climbed a dozen or so times so I wouldn't consider myself "a climber" but in my limited experience high rep pull-ups don't really translate to what I've done in climbing. ... I've not gone through anything tougher than a 5.13b/V8...


I'm going to pull a big fat BS flag on this one. I don't care what kind of shape you are in, you do not climb 5.13b/V8 by just doing it a dozen times. It usually takes 1-2 years if you are really good and climb consistently. If you were a climber, then you'd know that it takes that long to build up enough tendon strength to be able to pull moves of that difficulty. The movements themselves are trained through muscle memory, and it doesn't matter how much theory you know, you cannot pull V8 in a dozen sessions of climbing.

So bippy, I'm calling you out. Come to Boston and let's hit Metrorock, or let's go climb at Rumney and show me your skillz. If not, then stfu and stop spraying about your non-existent climbing ability.


Different gyms are dramatically different when it comes to how hard they rate routes, so I suppose it's possible that he climbed somewhere that just had enormous rating inflation.
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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby pullhard3r » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:14 pm UTC

folkhero wrote:Different gyms are dramatically different when it comes to how hard they rate routes, so I suppose it's possible that he climbed somewhere that just had enormous rating inflation.


Nah, I don't believe that. When you get anywhere close to V8 or 5.13, even an inflated route rated that would kick any beginer's arse. I believe bippy is lying, and I'm calling him out on that lie. Don't spray if you cannot prove.

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby 22/7 » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:54 pm UTC

Leave that horse alone man. Been flogged enough and I really don't want to see this thread go back to that.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby pullhard3r » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:56 pm UTC

I'm simply pointing out the obvious, because I do know what it takes to climb a V8, and it is not a dozen days on the rock. To say the truth, I don't really care if bippy spills the beans that he's a poser and apologizes to others, but as a climber myself, I feel an obligation to point out that he is full of shit.

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby Thrall » Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:42 am UTC

It actually depends on what you define as a "pull up." What I mean by this is the full mechanics of one pull up... like how far down you go after one successful pullup, what grip you use, etc..

I hear people bragging that they can do 20+ pullups when I go to the gym.. but i ask myself all the time what they mean. Do they mean "half pullups- where you pull yourself up but go down halfway... or an actual pullup: a pullup that i define as hyper extending both your arms after one successful pullup. You be the judge for yourself :P

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby Thrall » Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:45 am UTC

btw.. in reference to the question, I can probably pull off 10-16 pullups depending how I feel on that day. I pretty much go to the gym everyday with a weekly regime that I follow with a couple of my friends. Any questions regarding nutrition, successful protein use, or any good gym routines.. feel free to give me a holla!

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby 22/7 » Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:29 pm UTC

pullhard3r wrote:but as a climber myself, I feel an obligation to point out that he is full of shit.
I've never known a climber in whose interest it was to make sure that other people didn't inflate their egos through claiming to have climbed harder than they did.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby pullhard3r » Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:58 pm UTC

I never mentioned how hard I climb, and don't feel the need for it. I simply said that I know what it takes to climb 5.13, and it is not a dozen days on the rock.

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby 22/7 » Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:45 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:
pullhard3r wrote:but as a climber myself, I feel an obligation to point out that he is full of shit.
I've never known a climber in whose interest it was to make sure that other people didn't inflate their egos through claiming to have climbed harder than they did.
Totally not a hypothetical...

Steroid wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:If your economic reality is a choice, then why are you not as rich as Bill Gates?
Don't want to be.
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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby pullhard3r » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:12 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:Leave that horse alone man. Been flogged enough and I really don't want to see this thread go back to that.


How ironic.

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby Swivelguy » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:37 pm UTC

Damn starting strength! I keep having to come back to this and change my vote!
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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby Hodan » Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:47 am UTC

Swivelguy wrote:Damn starting strength! I keep having to come back to this and change my vote!


Oh, do you do the modified exercise plan from the wiki that involves the pull ups?

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby Swivelguy » Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:18 am UTC

Yep, I do:

A: Squat, Bench, Deadlift, Dips
B: Squat, Press, Power clean, Pull/Chinup (alternating)

and it's amazing. It's been about 7 weeks now, but I missed a couple weeks of squatting with a bruised knee (flag football).
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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby 22/7 » Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:36 pm UTC

pullhard3r wrote:
22/7 wrote:Leave that horse alone man. Been flogged enough and I really don't want to see this thread go back to that.
How ironic.
Out of curiosity, are you subscribed to this thread or do you just check in on it from time to time?
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby Kachi » Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:41 am UTC

I hear people bragging that they can do 20+ pullups when I go to the gym.. but i ask myself all the time what they mean. Do they mean "half pullups- where you pull yourself up but go down halfway... or an actual pullup: a pullup that i define as hyper extending both your arms after one successful pullup.


fyi, what you call a half pullup is what those in the biz would call a proper pullup. Dropping down to a 90 degree angle and pulling up is considered a full pullup.

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby Victoria Maddison » Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:40 am UTC

Kachi wrote:fyi, what you call a half pullup is what those in the biz would call a proper pullup. Dropping down to a 90 degree angle and pulling up is considered a full pullup.

A full, strict pull-up starts and finishes from a dead hang with arms straight. The "biz" is responsible for a lot of misinformation in the weight lifting and strength training communities, e.g. partial squats.

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby Kachi » Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:46 am UTC

Uh, no. In a standardized physical fitness test, you do not do pull ups from a dead hang. You're mistaken.

I don't know what you think the biz is, but I'm talking about professional physical fitness standards.

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby Victoria Maddison » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:43 am UTC

Kachi wrote:Uh, no. In a standardized physical fitness test, you do not do pull ups from a dead hang. You're mistaken.

The United States Marine Corps Physical Fitness Test disagrees with you, and I think you'd have a hard time trying to convince them to switch to partial pull-ups. By going only half the way down one hasn't trained the full range of motion. This opinion on form is hardly in the minority.

Kachi wrote:I don't know what you think the biz is, but I'm talking about professional physical fitness standards.

I interpreted your phrase "the biz" to mean standard commercial gym chains. They cross certify themselves and rarely know what they're doing.

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:44 am UTC

Victoria Maddison wrote:
Kachi wrote:Uh, no. In a standardized physical fitness test, you do not do pull ups from a dead hang. You're mistaken.

The United States Marine Corps Physical Fitness Test disagrees with you, and I think you'd have a hard time trying to convince them to switch to partial pull-ups. By going only half the way down one hasn't trained the full range of motion. My opinion on form is hardly in the minority.

Kachi wrote:I don't know what you think the biz is, but I'm talking about professional physical fitness standards.

I interpreted your phrase "the biz" as meaning standard commercial gyms chains. They cross certify themselves and rarely know what they're doing.


The phrase outmatched comes to mind.

Out of interest, which do people find harder, pull ups (palms toward face) or chin ups (palms away from face)?
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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby Victoria Maddison » Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:03 pm UTC

TheKrikkitWars wrote:Out of interest, which do people find harder, pull ups (palms toward face) or chin ups (palms away from face)?

Pull-ups are performed with hands prone (palms out) and chin-ups with hands supine (palms in). I find pull-ups slightly harder due to the greatly diminished involvement of the biceps.

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby Kachi » Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:31 am UTC

I interpreted your phrase "the biz" to mean standard commercial gym chains. They cross certify themselves and rarely know what they're doing.


Ah, no. I should have been more clear from the get-go. I'm talking about the professional standards of physicians, teachers, etc. when employing a comprehensive physical fitness test which tests muscular strength and endurance, cardiovascular endurance, flexibility, and BMI. Generally it includes pacer sit-up, backsaver sit and reach, and pullups (or flex arm hang), among other exercises.

The United States Marine Corps Physical Fitness Test disagrees with you, and I think you'd have a hard time trying to convince them to switch to partial pull-ups. By going only half the way down one hasn't trained the full range of motion. This opinion on form is hardly in the minority.


The only thing I'll say to this is that the Marine Corps probably has other things to take into consideration aside from those a health professional would.

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby asad137 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:05 am UTC

Kachi -- I suggest you search this forum for posts by the person you're disagreeing with. She's shown clearly, with numerous posts, that she actually knows what she's talking about when it comes to fitness and strength training. I'm not saying that you don't, but you don't have such history in this forum so I'm going to have to hit you with a big [Citation needed]. The USMC test she referenced is an easily verifiable, reasonably authoritative source, IMO. Your reference of "...the professional standards of physicians, teachers, etc. when employing a comprehensive physical fitness test..." is sufficiently nebulous and diverse to be almost completely worthless.

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby Kachi » Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:45 am UTC

http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=30215

I did ask.

Unfortunately I can't just pull a source off of a quick google search. When we administer physical fitness tests (twice a year), regulations standardize pullups from 90 degrees. This was a pretty basic thing that I learned in college. I've implemented several standardized physical fitness tests before, and there are strict criteria for each test prong. They're nationally recognized standards, but that doesn't mean that every state or organization necessarily uses them. I'll confirm with my brother what the norm is for physicians.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter. My point was simply that if someone says that they're doing 20 pullups, even if they're not from a dead hang, they are correct.

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:58 pm UTC

Kachi wrote:
The United States Marine Corps Physical Fitness Test disagrees with you, and I think you'd have a hard time trying to convince them to switch to partial pull-ups. By going only half the way down one hasn't trained the full range of motion. This opinion on form is hardly in the minority.


The only thing I'll say to this is that the Marine Corps probably has other things to take into consideration aside from those a health professional would.

Yes, Yes they would, I would probably go as far as to say that as a direct result they are better equipped to comment on strength and physical fitness training and assessment than someone with a degree in "Health".
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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby Victoria Maddison » Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:11 pm UTC

Kachi wrote:The only thing I'll say to this is that the Marine Corps probably has other things to take into consideration aside from those a health professional would.

The development of a high degree of functional strength comes to mind.

Kachi wrote:Unfortunately I can't just pull a source off of a quick google search.

I'm not surprised, I had a bit of a google myself and every hit that came up supported my case. Such as ExRx and CrossFit, both well respected. Or if they're not official-looking enough, here are some government/military references:
  1. United States Marine Corps Physical Fitness Test
  2. United States Federal Bureau of Investigation Physical Requirements Test
  3. United States Drug Enforcement Administration Physical Task Test
  4. Washington State Criminal Justice Training Commission SWAT Physical Ability Test
  5. West Point Military Academy Candidate Fitness Assessment

Kachi wrote:When we administer physical fitness tests (twice a year), regulations standardize pullups from 90 degrees.

Although you may call them pull-ups that doesn't make them full, strict pull-ups; they're still only partials. What you're advocating is rather absurd from a strength training point of view, and I've yet to hear your explanation as to exactly what benefit you believe you're deriving from greatly limiting the range of motion like that.

If I perform one of your standardized pull-ups from 90 degrees, humerus perpendicular to radius/ulna, then my chin hardly needs to move at all to get over the bar. Pull-ups/chin-ups become almost effortless. Ordinarily I can only manage 6-7 strict pull-ups at 37.5 kg (82.5 lbs) but with the form that you're advocating I can perform dozens with relative ease.

All other factors being the same, someone that can perform a maximum of N pull-ups with strict form will be stronger than someone that can perform a maximum of N pull-ups with your form.

Kachi wrote:Anyway, it doesn't really matter.

Ordinarily I'd agree, but you're speaking in a matter-of-fact style as a person of authority, something people tend to believe without question even though you have no references to back up your dubious claims. If you were merely claiming this to be your personal opinion then I wouldn't be so inclined to argue the point.

Kachi wrote:My point was simply that if someone says that they're doing 20 pullups, even if they're not from a dead hang, they are correct.

Only by your definition of the term pull-up, which doesn't appear to have the backing of the serious strength training community. Strict pull-ups train a significantly greater amount of muscle mass and range of motion, making them much more functional and useful than partials. I wouldn't recommend partials at all. For the trainee that can't do a single pull-up, negatives or bands would provide a better method of building up strength and working towards their first pull-up.
Last edited by Victoria Maddison on Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:14 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby pullhard3r » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:02 pm UTC

So why don't we re-define the original question, and make it clear that a full pull-up is from a dead hang with your back staying effectively static throughout the motion, i.e. you aren't using your momentum to swing into the next pull-up. Doing a couple dozen of those doesn't seem such an easy task anymore, eh?

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby tmcfulton » Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:02 am UTC

Question: what equipment does one use to do a chin-up at home? I can't exactly hang off of the tops of doorways...

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby Benitosimies » Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:15 am UTC

tmcfulton wrote:Question: what equipment does one use to do a chin-up at home? I can't exactly hang off of the tops of doorways...


I found some steps in the basement of my apartment building that are kind of like these that I get under and do pullups on.
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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby 22/7 » Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:38 pm UTC

I have a portable pull-up bar that's very convenient. Goes in a door frame. And you can certainly do door frame pull-ups. Helps with the climbing*.


*This statement prone to being hotly and topic-divertingly contested.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby Kachi » Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:21 am UTC

Ordinarily I'd agree, but you're speaking in a matter-of-fact style as a person of authority, something people tend to believe without question even though you have no references to back up your dubious claims. If you were merely claiming this to be your personal opinion then I wouldn't be so inclined to argue the point.


Like I said, sorry I can't cite you something off the web, but I am a health professional, and I do administer standardized physical fitness tests. 90 degrees is something that we consider a pullup when we are doing comprehensive fitness assessments.

Frankly, whether or not your web sources agree with me matters about as much as if your web sources contested the advice a medical doctor were giving. I don't have to tell you, as it's clear you already know, the standards for non health professionals are frequently unaccounted for.

I'm not contesting that a 180 pullup is by all accounts of muscular strength more effective than a 90. It certainly is, and if you're asking me why we use 90 degrees even still, I honestly couldn't say with any certainty. I could only speculate that because it's often administered to young children, there are concerns of joint hyperextension injuries, it's often administered to young girls, and it doesn't matter how effective the tests are at building strength because they are not a training regimen. They are fitness assessments. Therefor they must be standardized for the results to have any relevance. Whether that ends up meaning that the person does nine 90 degree pullups or four 180 degree pullups, the assessments are still going to have proportional relevance when norm referencing the results.

So by all means encourage people to do 180 degree pullups while training, but if you ask someone how many pullups they can do and they tell you in "partial pullups" don't be surprised if that's the way they were explicitly told to do them while they were being tested. They aren't trying to deceive you or artificially inflate their number. They're using different standards than you that are perfectly accepted in professional circles.

And it really doesn't matter either way because this is very much a matter of tomato/tomato.

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby Victoria Maddison » Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:24 am UTC

Kachi wrote:I can't cite you something off the web, but I am a health professional

A web link isn't necessary, just provide the title, author and year of the assessment guidelines manual or the medical journal submission or whatever your authoritative reference is and I'll be able to find a copy at my local university library next time that I'm there. If your fitness assessments are as comprehensive and standardized as you say then the form requirements will definitely be written down somewhere accessible by all health professionals.

Kachi wrote:whether or not your web sources agree with me matters about as much as if your web sources contested the advice a medical doctor were giving. I don't have to tell you, as it's clear you already know, the standards for non health professionals are frequently unaccounted for.

As mentioned previously, ExRx and CrossFit are both well respected, here are the qualifications of some of the people that run the former:

  1. Eric Serrano, MD
    • Medical Doctor, KU
    • Master's Studies in Kinesiology, KSU
    • Bachelor's of Science, Biology, KSU
  2. Lon Kilgore, Ph.D
    • Professor of Kinesiology at Midwestern State University
    • PhD Physiology, KSU
    • M.S. Kinesiology, KSU
    • B.S. Biology, Lincoln University
    • Director of the Midwestern State University Strength Research Laboratory
    • Director of the USA Weightlifting Regional Development Center
  3. James Griffing, M.S., B.S.
    • M.S. Kinesiology, KSU
    • B.S. Exercise Science, KSU
  4. Bryan Helwig, PhD
    • PhD Anatomy and Physiology
    • M.S. Human Nutrition
    • B.S. Corporate Wellness / Exercise Physiology
CrossFit needs no introduction as I'm sure most people are familiar with the high caliber of coaches and exercise professionals that they have working for them. As to the law enforcement and military references, I assume they have their own medical advisory boards that come up with their physical assessments to reflect the realistic conditions and requirements of their jobs, such as the need for functional strength.

Check out the essay entitled Silly Bullshit by Mark Rippetoe, CrossFit Journal Issue 59, pp12-16, July 2007, for an explanation of why medical professionals are in most cases not exercise professionals.

Kachi wrote:And it really doesn't matter either way because this is very much a matter of tomato/tomato.

Well this thread is a pull-up poll with the intent of determining the number of actual pull-ups that people can do. For the result to be meaningful we have to agree on what constitutes a real pull-up. I see no reason why a partial pull-up should be considered a full pull-up just because an unspecified group of "health professionals" have allegedly misappropriated the term. But as long as people aren't training that way without knowing any better then I don't really care.

Anyway, to summarize both sides of this discussion
  • Victoria
    1. A strict pull-up begins and ends at a dead hang.
    2. A pull-up that only goes half the way down is not a full pull-up.
    3. Partial pull-ups should not be used in a strength training program.
    4. A strict pull-up trains a significantly greater amount of muscle mass and range of motion, making it a much more functional and effective exercise.
    5. A partial pull-up is not a good indicator of functional strength.
  • Kachi
    1. A "pull-up" begins and ends with the humerus at a 90 degree angle to the radius/ulna according to "health professionals" conducting "standardized physical fitness tests."
    2. Unable to supply an authoritative reference for this claim.
    3. Concedes that a pull-up that trains the full range of motion is "by all accounts of muscular strength more effective than [a 90 degree pull-up]."
    4. The 90 degree pull-up form advocated is for standardized testing purposes only and is not for a training regimen.
    5. People may claim that they're able to perform N pull-ups without knowing that they're not full pull-ups because "health professionals" told them that's what they were during a "standardized physical fitness test."
I believe that I've thoroughly made my case and so I won't continue this debate any further unless given cause to.

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby jbn » Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:54 am UTC

Well played Victoria *applauds*

I'm eagerly expecting the retort.
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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby Kachi » Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:12 pm UTC

Hm, I'd have to go to work and look through various filing cabinets. I concede?

I spoke to another colleague today, and she told me that they do in fact do 180 during their fitness assessments. I neglected to ask what standards she was using, if any, though.

Well, congratulations on winning? an argument? about how to count pullups.

I do hope that regardless, if someone tells you that they did 20 pullups, you'll just ask them if they mean "full or partial," rather than accusing them of intentionally obfuscating their results.

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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby Swivelguy » Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:23 pm UTC

Kachi wrote:Well, congratulations on winning? an argument? ON THE INTERNET about how to count pullups.


Fixed.
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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby jbn » Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:45 am UTC

Gosh-darn it, the retort was a concessionish kind of thing. Ah well, I guess the war is over.

I also recently tried a pull-up (180), it worked, I might've been able to get up for a second one but I'm far from certain. It seems I should try this every now and then before Muay Thai practice, there's a bar for it there.
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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby Wolf » Sun Nov 23, 2008 1:01 am UTC

22/7 wrote:I have a portable pull-up bar that's very convenient. Goes in a door frame. And you can certainly do door frame pull-ups. Helps with the climbing*.


*This statement prone to being hotly and topic-divertingly contested.


Do you use one that has mounts bolted into the door (that you insert the bar into when you want to use it), or one that uses leverage to hold in place, such as this one? I'm seriously considering buying the linked one, but it'd be nice if I could confirm that I won't destroy my door frame (or myself!) by using one.
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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby 22/7 » Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:40 pm UTC

Neither, actually. I use this. It works pretty well, but it'll definitely dent your door frame if it's not metal or really heavy wood (like you'll find on exterior doors). So you either accept that it's going to dent it or stick it in an exterior frame or get the one you linked to. That said, it's extremely portable, and I actually picked mine up at a generic sporting goods store for like $15, not the $30-35 it's listed at online.
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Re: How many pull ups can you do?

Postby Kachi » Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:14 pm UTC

I saw a commercial for a bar that hooks over the door railing and supports itself on the other side... it looks to me like it could potentially rip the railing from the door frame, but I don't know.

I'm cheap, so I just do them off of the door itself. Open the door and throw a folded towel over the top. I can't really recommend it if you have better options as the door may swing as you workout and you have to rest your elbows against the door, which is not at all good. If you're cheap like me though, and your door is sturdy, it's an option.


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