Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

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bbq
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Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby bbq » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:07 pm UTC

I have figured out the next stage of being healthy I need to work on are these two.

I'm happy with my arms, abs and pectorals, muscle gain seems to be fine along those lines.

However I'm not so happy with my legs, shoulders, or back. Which is fair enough, seeing as though most of my exercise is aimed along the 3 mentioned up there.

Also I seem to be eating lots of bad shit, and not sure what I should be eating.

So 3 questions;

1. Is there anything I just have to be eating?
2. Is there anything I really shouldn't be eating?
3. and are there any compound exercises I should start, apart from squats and deadlifts?

This is for weight gain, not weight loss.
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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby jtw » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:23 pm UTC

1. DO eat lots of protein
2. DON'T eat lots of carbs
3. Pullup/chinup, barbell/db row, military press, hamstring curl, seated/cable row - and variations of all those.

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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby jtw » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:25 pm UTC

otherwise, it sounds like you're doing it right!

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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby bbq » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:28 pm UTC

3. Pullup/chinup, barbell/db row, military press, hamstring curl, seated/cable row - and variations of all those.


how exactly do you do barbell rows? I'll look it up, already doing dumbell ones and cable ones.

Cheers for the advice, any specific foods?
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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby Hobgoblin » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:47 pm UTC

1. Lots of protein, some carbs, and a little fat.
2. Just a little fat. You can cheat every once in a while and eat whatever you want, but just remember to keep it in moderation.
3. Pushups, squats, chin ups, tricep dips, anything, really.
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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby bbq » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:49 pm UTC

I was told fat was quite important if you were trying to build mass. Was this wrong?
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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby Hobgoblin » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:58 pm UTC

bbq wrote:I was told fat was quite important if you were trying to build mass. Was this wrong?


Well, it can build mass, but that mass would be fat. Protein is the building block of muscle, and that's really what you need when you are going to build muscle. Carbohydrate keeps your body from burning the muscle up. You always need a little bit of fat, but you shouldn't go out of your way to eat a lot of fatty foods to gain weight, because the only weight you'll gain is fat.
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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby bbq » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:02 pm UTC

Well, I am fairly young (teenager) and I have a -very- quick metabolism, so I don't think I'll need to worry about putting on fat. Considering this, it would be viable to have a fair amount of fat to use as energy, right?
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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby psykx » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:47 pm UTC

fat has more calories per gram (about 9cal per g) than carbs or protien (about 4cal per g). Protein is needed to repair and build muscle. Carbs are your bodies prefered form of energy. The GI or glycemic index of your carbs is how slowly it releases energy. You want to be eating low GI foods to keep your insulin levels low so that your body doesn't turn excess sugar into fat and so that you have a constant supply of energy (for exercise).

you also need fibre in your diet to keep you healthy, I try to roughly eat low GU and low calorie per mass of food (so it fills you up with less calories) quite constantly when hungry through out the day.
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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby mobikwa » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:04 pm UTC

jtw wrote:1. DO eat lots of protein
2. DON'T eat lots of carbs
3. Pullup/chinup, barbell/db row, military press, hamstring curl, seated/cable row - and variations of all those.


1: Eat a good amount of protein, about 1.5g per lb of bodyweight
2: Eat a good amount of carbs, about 40% of your daily calories should come from them. Remember, sugar and fiber are carbs, sugar you don't need, fiber isnt digested by the body but is needed.
3. Pullups, chinups, squats, deadlift, bench press, overhead press, powerclean, dips... all these are great compound exercises.

bbq wrote:how exactly do you do barbell rows? I'll look it up, already doing dumbell ones and cable ones.
Cheers for the advice, any specific foods?


http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/BackGen ... erRow.html
Oats are a great food, chicken breast, turkey breast, any lean meats really, all types of fish (even fatty fish are very good for you), assortments of vegetables but stay away from too much potato and corn (fast carbs). Mix of fruits are good, nuts have a lot fat in them (good), MILK drink lots of it to build muscle. Stay away from processed foods as much as possible.

Hobgoblin wrote:Just a little fat. You can cheat every once in a while and eat whatever you want, but just remember to keep it in moderation.

About 30% of your daily calories should come from fat.

bbq wrote:I was told fat was quite important if you were trying to build mass. Was this wrong?

You are correct, it is important.

Hobgoblin wrote:Well, it can build mass, but that mass would be fat. Protein is the building block of muscle, and that's really what you need when you are going to build muscle. Carbohydrate keeps your body from burning the muscle up. You always need a little bit of fat, but you shouldn't go out of your way to eat a lot of fatty foods to gain weight, because the only weight you'll gain is fat.

Eating fat does not mean you gain fat, eating more CALORIES than you use means you gain fat. You need fat in your diet, about 30%

Macro/Micro nutrients explained
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=2845231

bbq wrote:Well, I am fairly young (teenager) and I have a -very- quick metabolism, so I don't think I'll need to worry about putting on fat. Considering this, it would be viable to have a fair amount of fat to use as energy, right?

In order to build muscle you need to eat above your maintenance caloric needs, you have to eat more than you burn off. How clean your diet is will determine how much muscle vs fat you gain, you will gain some fat, it is unavoidable.
You want to gain weight quick, with big compound movements, I suggest looking into Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe http://startingstrength.wikia.com/

psykx wrote:fat has more calories per gram (about 9cal per g) than carbs or protien (about 4cal per g). Protein is needed to repair and build muscle. Carbs are your bodies prefered form of energy. The GI or glycemic index of your carbs is how slowly it releases energy. You want to be eating low GI foods to keep your insulin levels low so that your body doesn't turn excess sugar into fat and so that you have a constant supply of energy (for exercise).

you also need fibre in your diet to keep you healthy, I try to roughly eat low GU and low calorie per mass of food (so it fills you up with less calories) quite constantly when hungry through out the day.

Low GI value carbs are good throughout the day but right after a workout you need to replenish your energy stores ASAP before your body breaks down the muscles for energy, high GI carbs do the trick, white breads, pastas and so on... I usually pour myself a glass of water and throw in 2 scoops of Gatorade powder (fructose and sucrose) great fast energy.

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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby shocklocks » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:40 pm UTC

You're going to get alot of conflicting information about the best percentages of fat/pro/cho but in all honesty for someone of your age/situation it's not all that important. Obviously if you want to stress that point Mobikwa is pretty much bang on. 40-50% carbs, 30-40%protein and 25-30%fat are very good ratios for a skinny person looking to pack on some weight. Obviously these should be kept as clean/unprocessed as possible but the main thing is going to be quantity. Your best bet is doing GOMAD with a good diet on top of it. You should be totalling 4k+ calories perday. If this is too much to begin with start with a smaller diet and add 500cals every couple weeks. Parallel this with starting strength and go hard.

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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby Victoria Maddison » Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:00 am UTC

bbq wrote:I was told fat was quite important if you were trying to build mass. Was this wrong?

A caloric excess of 300-500 kcal/day along with 1 g/lb protein is required to build muscle at a reasonable rate. Consuming more calories than this is unnecessary and will up the amount of body fat that you store along with the new muscle. How you get the calories is up to you but people often have trouble eating enough to gain weight and require energy dense fats to keep them on target.

Hobgoblin wrote:Well, it can build mass, but that mass would be fat. Protein is the building block of muscle, and that's really what you need when you are going to build muscle. Carbohydrate keeps your body from burning the muscle up. You always need a little bit of fat, but you shouldn't go out of your way to eat a lot of fatty foods to gain weight, because the only weight you'll gain is fat.

You are mistaken. While protein is the building block required to create muscle tissue, without sufficient excess energy the body won't secrete growth hormones at the levels required to add mass. How do you think a 60kg and 100kg Olympic weightlifter stay in their respective weight classes without gaining or losing weight even though they both consume protein at the same level per unit body weight? Additionally saying that "fat makes you fat" is like saying "eating makes you fat," it's a specious argument that I've covered in detail in the milk thread.

jtw wrote:DON'T eat lots of carbs

psykx wrote:try to roughly eat low GU and low calorie per mass of food (so it fills you up with less calories)

psykx wrote:You want to be eating low GI foods to keep your insulin levels low

When gaining weight you want your insulin levels high to create a strong anabolic environment for cell uptake of amino acids. It's inevitable that when gaining muscle mass you will also gain some body fat. However the degree of fat gain can be controlled by limiting the caloric excess to only what is required to spur growth at the desired rate.

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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby psykx » Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:28 am UTC

Victoria Maddison wrote:
jtw wrote:DON'T eat lots of carbs

psykx wrote:try to roughly eat low GU and low calorie per mass of food (so it fills you up with less calories)

psykx wrote:You want to be eating low GI foods to keep your insulin levels low

When gaining weight you want your insulin levels high to create a strong anabolic environment for cell uptake of amino acids. It's inevitable that when gaining muscle mass you will also gain some body fat. However the degree of fat gain can be controlled by limiting the caloric excess to only what is required to spur growth at the desired rate.

<rant>
I keep coming up against this, is this actually necessary for the body's insulin levels to be risen? as in really, there are many things that could effect the body's insulin levels and I think you actually mean you need you need reasonably high blood sugar levels to maintain production of ATP and therefor a high level of anabolic reactions. IT'S NOT PROPER SCIENCE DAMIT.

</ end rant > *scribble note to therapist*
secondly how would I go about working out the amount of energy needed during a growth spurt? isn't an excess required?
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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby Victoria Maddison » Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:04 am UTC

psykx wrote:is this actually necessary for the body's insulin levels to be risen? as in really, there are many things that could effect the body's insulin levels and I think you actually mean you need you need reasonably high blood sugar levels to maintain production of ATP and therefor a high level of anabolic reactions.

For ideal recovery and growth you don't want to be intentionally lowering your levels of one of the most anabolic hormones in the human body. I'm not suggesting you attempt to raise your insulin levels above the healthy range and induce insulin resistance, that would be ridiculous and counter productive, but telling someone that wants to grow to keep their insulin low like it's a good thing is just plain silly. You have 24-72 hours max between training sessions to recover, don't screw around.

Your talk of calorie poor food and maintaining low insulin levels are more relevant to people trying to lose weight than gain it. A diet of around 40% carbohydrate, 30% protein, 30% fat will serve most people quite well. Post workout is a good time for a high carbohydrate, high protein meal which together will elicit a larger insulin response than either alone, facilitating recovery and growth.

[Edit: I think I may have misread your question. If you're asking whether carbohydrates are necessary for insulin secretion the answer is no, however carbohydrate does strongly drive insulin release due to insulin's role in maintaining blood glucose homeostasis.]

psykx wrote:how would I go about working out the amount of energy needed during a growth spurt? isn't an excess required?

If in combination with heavy barbell training with the goal if increasing muscle mass, then same way as everybody else. Increase your caloric intake by 300-500 kcal/day each week until you're gaining weight at approximately 0.5 kg/week (1 lb/week).

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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby psykx » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:53 pm UTC

insulin isn't an anabolic hormone. Insulin levels are effected by sugar levels and sugar levels are important in producing ATP which directly powers most anabolic processes. However insulin levels do not directly effect anabolic processes. It helps regulate the blood sugar levels which mean it indirectly effects anabolic processes. My gripe was this isn't made clear, and lots of sports science people and or texts aren't as scientific as I'd like. The above wasn't really aimed at you, your science seems good just maybe a little misrepresented (and I'd just woken up when I made that post).

edit: vegetables also provide necessary vitamins and minerals necessary or healthy growth or repair and with the western world the state it is I'm going to assume that everybody could do with loosing a little weight unless stated otherwise.
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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby TheSkyMovesSideways » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:07 pm UTC

shocklocks wrote:You're going to get alot of conflicting information about the best percentages of fat/pro/cho

But there is a simple rule of thumb: Completely ignore anyone who tells you to avoid an entire nutrient family. :D
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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby Victoria Maddison » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:55 pm UTC

psykx wrote:insulin isn't an anabolic hormone

The definition of anabolic is "of or related to the synthetic phase of metabolism," and insulin certainly fits this definition given that it, amongst other things, increases tissue uptake of amino acids. Therefore we may say it is anabolic in nature, an "anabolic" hormone.

I'm not the only one that uses this terminology,
  1. "The key anabolic hormones are human growth hormone, insulin-like growth factor-1, insulin, and testosterone and its analogs." Demling, Robert H. MD, The Role of Anabolic Hormones for Wound Healing in Catabolic States, J. Burns Wounds 2005; 4: e2.
  2. "Insulin is the most important anabolic hormone known today. It promotes overall anabolic reactions for all three energy and structural components in the body: carbohydrates, proteins and fat." Claudio Ronco, Rinaldo Bellomo, Alessandra Brendolan, Sepsis, kidney and multiple organ dysfunction: proceedings of the Third International Course on Critical Care Nephrology, Vicenza, June 1-4, 2004
  3. "Insulin is the most potent anabolic hormone known and is essential for appropriate tissue development, growth, and maintenance of whole-body glucose homeostasis." Jeffrey E. Pessin, Alan R. Saltiel, Signaling pathways in insulin action: molecular targets of insulin resistance, J. Clin. Invest. 106(2): 165-169 (2000).

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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby Hobgoblin » Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:57 pm UTC

Mobikwa is right- I just found out that my information was wrong, and stupid.


I agree with most to all of this thread; you need to be eating lean meats (chicken, fish, maybe some lean beef. pork COULD be eaten in a healthy manner but more often than not, it won't be.), and some high fiber carbs like pasta, oats, and some other stuff. Don't forget your fruits and vegetables either!
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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby ShemTealeaf » Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:09 am UTC

The mass gain diet I've seen work most often is as follows:

Protein: 1-1.2g / lb of bodyweight
Fruits/Veggies: Lots and lots
Complex Carbs: Minimal except in post-workout meal
Sugar: As little as possible
Fat: Start at moderate levels, and increase by about 10-20% every couple weeks until you start gaining the kind of weight you want. Also, try to get most of your fat from sources like fish, nuts, and olive oil, rather than saturated fat.

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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby bbq » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:42 am UTC

I was thinking of starting one of the Starting Strength routines, but with a few extra isolation exercises added in.

Good/bad idea?
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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby Hobgoblin » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:21 pm UTC

bbq wrote:I was thinking of starting one of the Starting Strength routines, but with a few extra isolation exercises added in.

Good/bad idea?



I don't see how this COULD be a bad idea. Exercise=win.
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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby mobikwa » Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:59 pm UTC

bbq wrote:I was thinking of starting one of the Starting Strength routines, but with a few extra isolation exercises added in.

Good/bad idea?


I'm a hypocrite for this but I would just go with SS, leave the extras out for the first month or so... that workout is very taxing on your body.

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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby bbq » Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:15 pm UTC

I'm still not sure whether I want to follow the SS routine or not. Due to a bit of free time, I did some thinking and came up with this:

monday-
bench press
shoulder press
squats
upright rows
lateral raises
dumbell rows
pulldowns
bar curls

wednesday-
bench press
shoulder press
deadlifts
upright rows
flyes
dumbell rows
pulldowns
bar curls

friday-
bench press
shoulder press
squats
upright rows
lateral raises
dumbell rows
pulldowns
bar curls



Does this look like a good routine to you more experienced people?
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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby shocklocks » Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:52 pm UTC

You don't need that many different exercises. You're missing the point of doing compound exercises entirely.

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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby bbq » Sun Jul 05, 2009 4:22 pm UTC

Well, my point was to mix compound exercises with some additional isolation exercises. If you would care to elaborate, such as tell me what you think I should take out, or change? :)
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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby Victoria Maddison » Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:04 am UTC

bbq wrote:I'm still not sure whether I want to follow the SS routine or not.

I guess it depends on what your goals are. If you want to gain strength and muscle mass as efficiently as possible then go with Starting Strength and eat a lot.

bbq wrote:I did some thinking and came up with this: [...] Does this look like a good routine to you more experienced people?

No, the squat frequency, pressing volume and assistance exercise selection are poorly thought out.

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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby mobikwa » Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:02 pm UTC

bbq wrote:I'm still not sure whether I want to follow the SS routine or not. Due to a bit of free time, I did some thinking and came up with this:
Does this look like a good routine to you more experienced people?


What do you mean "due to a bit of free time"
Do you have more free time and would like to spend more time at the gym than SS will take? It cant be more days at the gym since youre still doing 3 days a week.

What set X rep scheme are you going for? 3x5 just like SS?

There is a reason only squats are done every workout in SS, and not bench, press, and deadlift. You're going to be overworking your chest and shoulders.
I would cut out upright rows, they are very hard on the rotator cuff.
I would cut out pulldowns and bar curls and put in pullups/chin ups alternating.
I would cut out dumbbell row and if you must do a direct back lift do a bent over barbell row.
I would maybe throw in a calf isolation lift and some direct ab/oblique work.

There are variations to SS out there. Practical Programming is the one that I am doing now. It subs out powerclean for pullups/chinups alternating. These are not approved by Rippetoe btw.

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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby bbq » Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:29 pm UTC

What do you mean "due to a bit of free time"
Do you have more free time and would like to spend more time at the gym than SS will take? It cant be more days at the gym since youre still doing 3 days a week.


I meant, I had some free time for like ten minutes, so I jotted down what I wanted to do with my exercises.

I was going for something like 5x5, maybe 6x5 with this. Thank you for the rest of the advice :) my aim for this particular routine was to ease myself into doing squats and deadlifts, because I'm just starting them, whilst still doing some of my old routine. My logic was that if I go to the gym and try to do something completely different from usual, I'm more likely to get discouraged if it doesn't work.
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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby Victoria Maddison » Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:40 am UTC

mobikwa wrote:There are variations to SS out there. Practical Programming is the one that I am doing now. It subs out powerclean for pullups/chinups alternating. These are not approved by Rippetoe btw.

Rippetoe wrote Practical Programming. There's a second novice program in the book for lifters reaching the end of the novice phase where the power clean is introduced alternating on a weekly basis with the deadlift.

bbq wrote:I was going for something like 5x5, maybe 6x5 ... my aim for this particular routine was to ease myself into doing squats and deadlifts, because I'm just starting them

5x5's are more advanced routines for intermediate lifters. They're harder and the results are worse which is natural because weight lifting is a sport of diminishing returns, i.e. the more advanced the programming the slower the gains.

bbq wrote:My logic was that if I go to the gym and try to do something completely different from usual, I'm more likely to get discouraged if it doesn't work.

Given that you don't presently squat or deadlift you can expect large gains. Almost anything with squats would be an improvement over your current programming. SS will take the average male's squat to around 1.5x body weight in 3-9 months and if you eat enough you can also expect a 15-20 kg (30-45 lb) increase in body weight.

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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby bbq » Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:15 pm UTC

Given that you don't presently squat or deadlift you can expect large gains. Almost anything with squats would be an improvement over your current programming. SS will take the average male's squat to around 1.5x body weight in 3-9 months and if you eat enough you can also expect a 15-20 kg (30-45 lb) increase in body weight.


I more meant, I probably don't have the correct technique down for squats, deadlifts, and other new exercises, so if I go to the gym and get them all wrong I'll get discouraged.

I was going to do 5x5 but I ended up doing more reps.
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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby jackisdead » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:50 am UTC

I'm a big fan of SS.

It's been fun and I'm really into it. I've done it since late October. I'm still making gains so I'm not going to switch to anything yet.

Either way, it's simple and easy to follow. It's a good routine for beginners, in my opinion. I was a beginning weight lifter and I found it easy to understand and easy to follow through with.

And just sayin': if you're unhappy with your legs, squats. Your back, deadlifts. Your shoulders, overhead press. All of them are mainstays of SS.

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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby mobikwa » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:02 pm UTC

Victoria Maddison wrote:
mobikwa wrote:There are variations to SS out there. Practical Programming is the one that I am doing now. It subs out powerclean for pullups/chinups alternating. These are not approved by Rippetoe btw.

Rippetoe wrote Practical Programming. There's a second novice program in the book for lifters reaching the end of the novice phase where the power clean is introduced alternating on a weekly basis with the deadlift.


I did not know that, thank you.

If you are unsure about correct form, get the book and read it thoroughly. I read about squats the other day and there were so many little things that I was doing wrong. After you know what you should be doing during the exercises you need to learn how the proper form feels, its one thing to read about form and watch videos but you have to know how proper form feels for you. I suggest either finding someone at the gym who knows what they are doing, you know what to look for in form (you read the book, didn't you?), if they do it right ask them to watch you do it, most lifters won't mind helping out a newbie. Or you can videotape yourself from the side and back and then review the tape, make adjustments and repeat till its perfect.

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scubaboymax
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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby scubaboymax » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:58 pm UTC

OK I'm sorry guys, I read the first few replies and got extremely frustrated with replies that I had to get this out.

I am only a recent gym nerd - only been going for about 6 months. However, I do know a few very experienced personal trainers, one an amatuer MMA fighter, and the best advice that can be given is basically:

1. Eat healthy: Heaps of Fruit, heaps of veges. Eat nuts when you can, and AVOID MEAT THAT IS NOT LEAN. ie no McDonalds burgers, just lean steaks. Chicken is good, and ig you can get good quality mince, that is pretty good too. The nuts provide good protein and are just generally good for you. Drink a protein shake every know and then if you feel the need or need a quick recovery.
2. EAT HEALTHY: NO fatty, sugary foods. Avoid soft drink, cakes, biscuits etc. Diet is key.
3. In respect to your workout at the gym, you have been doing WAY to much work on the 'trophy muscles' (pecs, abs, bi's etc) and aren't balancing. If you do too much chest and not enough back, all you will get is a hunched posture because your muscles will tighten. A good rule to use when at the gym is using same amount of time on back and chest, thus balancing the two out. The same goes for triceps and biceps. And Thighs and Hamstrings. In order to get the most gains, you need to work the ENTIRE BODY. A good technique is to use "super sets", eg. Do one set of Bicep curls, then one of tricep pulldowns. Repeat 3 times with NO REST. This has the double bonus of increasing you endurance, as well as balancing out the muscle groups.
4. I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere, but stretching is essential. You should start, and finish with at least 10 mins of stretching, with stretching in between sets (or super sets).
5. Do planks.* They strengthen your lower back, allowing better form in deadlifts, squats, squat rows etc... As a rule, If you cannot plank for at least 2 mins (and by this i mean you should be able to do it for 3 minimum). Then do not even attempt deadlifting, or even lifting above 10-15% body weight.

Thats it for my rant, and general tips :P

*good exercise: Set up a timer. Plank for 1 minute. Without breaking position or dropping knees, go into pushup position. 10 pushups. Back to plank, and do another minute, increasing the number of pushups by 5 each time. See how long you can last :P

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TheSkyMovesSideways
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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby TheSkyMovesSideways » Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:04 pm UTC

scubaboymax wrote:In respect to your workout at the gym, you have been doing WAY to much work on the 'trophy muscles' (pecs, abs, bi's etc)

Who are you talking about?

If you do too much chest and not enough back, all you will get is a hunched posture because your muscles will tighten.

Odd, since the chest muscles do not pull the shoulders forward.

In order to get the most gains, you need to work the ENTIRE BODY.

And doing it one muscle at a time is not particularly effective in terms of either time-investment or results.

4. I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere, but stretching is essential. You should start, and finish with at least 10 mins of stretching, with stretching in between sets (or super sets).

Stretching is not essential, should never be done between sets, and is best done at the end of a workout. You should read Stretching Scientifically by Thomas Kurz if you'd like to understand why this is.

Do planks.* They strengthen your lower back

No they don't. Planks are great, but they're an isometric abdominal exercise (with some effect on the quads and hip flexors too), not a lower back exercise. The abs flex the spine and the lower back muscles extend it. In the plank position, gravity is pulling your spine into an extended position, so the abdominal need to tense to counteract this.

the best advice that can be given is basically

... take everything you hear with a grain of salt, even if it's from a personal trainer? :wink:
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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby Victoria Maddison » Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:52 am UTC

scubaboymax wrote:1. Eat healthy: Heaps of Fruit, heaps of veges. Eat nuts when you can, and AVOID MEAT THAT IS NOT LEAN. ie no McDonalds burgers, just lean steaks. Chicken is good, and ig you can get good quality mince, that is pretty good too. The nuts provide good protein and are just generally good for you.

The only reason to avoid non-lean meat would be if it was poor quality from feedlot animals fed industrial waste. Natural grass fed meat is very good for you and is easy to acquire in most western countries.

scubaboymax wrote:2. EAT HEALTHY: NO fatty, sugary foods. Avoid soft drink, cakes, biscuits etc. Diet is key.

Wait a minute I thought you just said to eat lots of nuts? Which outside of drinking olive oil straight from the can is one of the most concentrated sources of fat one can find...

scubaboymax wrote:3. In respect to your workout at the gym, you have been doing WAY to much work on the 'trophy muscles' (pecs, abs, bi's etc)

This is the one point in your post that I agree with, but if you read the rest of the thread we've already convinced the OP to switch to a real training program so it's no longer an issue.

scubaboymax wrote:If you do too much chest and not enough back, all you will get is a hunched posture because your muscles will tighten.

The hunching is from underdeveloped posterior shoulder muscles which can be avoided by pressing over head.

scubaboymax wrote:A good rule to use when at the gym is using same amount of time on back and chest, thus balancing the two out. The same goes for triceps and biceps. And Thighs and Hamstrings. In order to get the most gains, you need to work the ENTIRE BODY.

No a good rule is to not break the body up into chest/back/shoulders/legs/arms, that's bodybuilder style thinking and rarely useful.

scubaboymax wrote:A good technique is to use "super sets", eg. Do one set of Bicep curls, then one of tricep pulldowns. Repeat 3 times with NO REST. This has the double bonus of increasing you endurance, as well as balancing out the muscle groups.

I disagree, bicep curls and tricep pulldowns are poor exercises that shouldn't be used in the first place. Super sets as you've described them aren't a very good way to train either.

scubaboymax wrote:4. I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere, but stretching is essential. You should start, and finish with at least 10 mins of stretching, with stretching in between sets (or super sets).

Definitely not, stretching kills lifting performance, this has been known for decades.

scubaboymax wrote:5. Do planks.* They strengthen your lower back, allowing better form in deadlifts, squats, squat rows etc... As a rule, If you cannot plank for at least 2 mins (and by this i mean you should be able to do it for 3 minimum). Then do not even attempt deadlifting, or even lifting above 10-15% body weight.

That's ridiculous. And FYI 10-15% body weight for most people is less than what the average 2 year old weighs, are you saying that parents can't even pick their children up off the floor? Not to mention an empty barbell is heavier still!

scubaboymax wrote:*good exercise: Set up a timer. Plank for 1 minute. Without breaking position or dropping knees, go into pushup position. 10 pushups. Back to plank, and do another minute, increasing the number of pushups by 5 each time. See how long you can last :P

This is a waste of time compared to barbell training.

scubaboymax wrote:I am only a recent gym nerd - only been going for about 6 months. However, I do know a few very experienced personal trainers, one an amatuer MMA fighter, and the best advice that can be given is basically ...

... unless someone can squat at least twice their body weight they probably don't know wtf they're talking about.

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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby bbq » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:05 pm UTC

Anyways.


So for the next 5 weeks, and maybe another 7 or so after that, I have basically not-much-at-all to do.

So I have lots of gym time- 3 hours, 3 times a week.

I've thought up a routine, the core of which (2 hours and 5 minutes of the workout, I think) is bench press, incline bench press, squats, deadlifts and shoulder press. 25 minutes for each exercise.

the rest of it is barbell rows, pullups, bicep curls and tricep pushdowns. 15 minutes for each exercise, apart from bicep curls - 10 for them.

that's pretty much it, I think. And I guess this is where half of you tell me I've got it completely wrong, a few of you tell me I've got a few bits right, and the rest of you launch into a debate about whether insulin as an anabolic hormone. :P
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Victoria Maddison
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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby Victoria Maddison » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:57 pm UTC

Do as you please. I have a few points, though:
  1. The training complexity necessary for gains is proportional to the level of advancement
  2. You are at the lowest rung of advancement and would benefit most from simple programming
  3. No matter what program you come up with you still won't be putting more than around 15 lb/week on your squat
  4. Spending 3 hours in the gym each session is going to make it harder for your body to recover in the 48 hours required to super-compensate before the next workout. If you don't super-compensate you will stall.
  5. Deadlifting 3x a week for 25 minutes is not a good idea

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Nith Azra
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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby Nith Azra » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:03 am UTC

I can't even comprehend the amount of bad advice thrown at you in this thread without people thinking... But there is a lot of good advice too.

-You Do want to eat plenty of protein, carbs are oh so important and fat is important too. If you want a food source which is high in protein, which you can add to other foods; try wheat germ. Think of it as funny tasting protein powder, except better for you. :)
You want to take in some protein every three hours on a training day; I like to have a snack of mixed beans, tuna and wheat germ. Or even tastier; bake eggs and cheese inside a whole capsicum.

-Don't get too worried about isolation exercises. Unless you have an overly weak muscle which needs building, or are doing isolation exercises on ever muscle in your body; there's not much point.

-Don't go crazy with the weights; any amount of muscle gain you could ever hope for can be done with your own body weight. All you need is a chin-up bar, some flat floor and a wall.

-Oh yeah, and planks are what's referred to as 'core stabilizing'. It is a great workout for all of your core muscles.
A good exercise for it is this:
-1 minute in straight plank
-30 seconds left arm raised
-30 seconds right arm raised
-30 seconds left leg raised
-30 seconds right leg raised
-30 seconds straight plank
-30 seconds left arm & right leg raised
-30 seconds right arm & left leg raised
-1 minute straight plank

When you can do that happily, start increasing the times. :)
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Victoria Maddison
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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby Victoria Maddison » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:14 am UTC

Nith Azra wrote:-Don't go crazy with the weights; any amount of muscle gain you could ever hope for can be done with your own body weight. All you need is a chin-up bar, some flat floor and a wall.

Pardon? The average adult male is capable of becoming 125 kg (275 lbs) 15% bf with dedicated training, but it'll take a lot more than body weight exercises to get there. Even bodybuilders know they have to lift big to get big.

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Re: Eating Correctly and Compound exercises.

Postby Nith Azra » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:27 am UTC

Find me a powerlifter who can do the iron cross... or even a dragon flag....
You can get big with weights, you can get as big as you need with body weight exercises. I'm not saying don't do weighted exercises; they work fine, just remember that you don't have to have to use weights in every exercise you do.
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