The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

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Kaf
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The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby Kaf » Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:09 pm UTC

Well after a long time of being a shadowy lurker I've decided to come out and seek some advice, if you are willing to share!

I'm pretty new to the working out business, only starting to take weight lifting seriously about 2 months ago, and while I'm making progress (can see gains in the amount I can lift, I've gone from utter pansy to respectable pansy) my mind has been turning towards protein shakes etc.

Now the utter hippy that resides within me just tells me that it can't be natural, created in a lab somewhere, I don't need it, look at Marlon Brando didn't need such things when he did street car named desire etc, and after looking at the back of one brand, I couldn't help but think there was a tad of "bro science" involved so my first question is from people who use the shakes, do the benefits outweigh the doubts you have? Or do you prefer getting your protein from tried and tested real food.

My main goal though is to burn fat, as I am what some people may refer to (generously) as tubby and (not so generously) fat, so that was always my goal, fat burn, with a healthy amount of cardio, and starting the Cool running.com couch-to-5k running program, with regular weight sessions, my weight has what I can only described as yo-yo'd like crazy (also probably due to weighing timing and the fact we don't have a kitchen at the moment as its being redone messing with my meals) is this the best way to go about fat burning?

and finally (and thank you for baring with me this far) I've been looking at getting Maximuscle Promax Diet and Maximuscle Promax Diet Bars but I'm not sure about the meal replacement strategy and just wondering if anyone else had tried using these and what their experiences were.

So that's my first post, be nice :D and because I'm kind, and just to end for clarity, the TL;DR version of the post
1) Are protein shakes and bars healthy? or are you better sticking to natural sources
2) For fat burning is a healthy mix of cardio and weights the way forwards?
3) Are the diet protein shakes and bars any good for what I need? and how are other peoples experiences with them?

Thanks :D

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Purky
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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby Purky » Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:43 pm UTC

I play rugby (blindside flanker) and need to mix up the cardio and weight training too. I haven't tried the promax diet but I do use Maximuscle Cyclone protein shake and Viper for hydration. Personally I find that they work really well, although maximuscle products are ridiculously expensive (~£40 for a tub of cyclone that lasts 10 days if you use the recommended plan). I personally think that some supplements are worth it but you need to look at the cost and benefit for you as well as finding a product that you like (harder than you think, some of the shakes out there taste terrible) and that agrees with you and your wallet.

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Nath
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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby Nath » Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:42 pm UTC

Kaf wrote:1) Are protein shakes and bars healthy? or are you better sticking to natural sources
2) For fat burning is a healthy mix of cardio and weights the way forwards?
3) Are the diet protein shakes and bars any good for what I need? and how are other peoples experiences with them?

I'll address point 2 first: yes, cardio+weights is a good idea. You might also want to experiment with high-intensity interval training methods as well: it may work better for some people than traditional long, slow cardio. This sort of thing can be done with weights as well, though it's unlikely to produce as much of a maximal strength increase as a traditional strength training program. If I only had time to do one kind of exercise, it would probably be some sort of high intensity training with weights.

As for replacing food with Food Product (TM), while I don't think protein bars and shakes are actively harmful, I stay away from them myself. It's pretty easy to get all the protein you need from food, especially for most beginners. For serious athletes, the requirements can be quite high, which is why it might make more sense to throw in some supplement-type stuff, but it's still not necessary even for most top-level athletes.

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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby shocklocks » Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:38 am UTC

I'm not sure about the meal replacement strategy

The planner they have on that site is absolutely retarded. Eating that little/replacing meals like that doesn't work. You might lose weight in the shorterm but don't expect to make progress in your weight lifting and remember that as soon as you start eating properly again your metabolism is going to be completely shot so the weight is going to pile back on in record time(yay for stretch marks.)

1) Whey protein(along with casein) is extracted from milk. It's completely 100% natural and safe, just stay away from powders that use soy proteins/other inferior proteins. In all honesty though the "Maximuscle Promax diet" sounds like a waste of money.

http://www.thesupplementstore.co.uk/5_r ... m?browse=1

for example costs half as much. If you were to mix this in a blender with some oats(which cost nothing in comparison to the protein) you'd have the complex carbs and fibre. If you want the metabolism boosting effect of greentea/caffeine then just drink green tea. On top of that claiming they have enough esential fatty acids(the ingredients say theres less then 2g per serving) to be a complete meal replacement is a fucking joke. Asuming your diet is 25-30% fat with a 1/3 of that total being EFA's it doesn't even come close.

2)A mix of the two is infinitely better then just plain cardio. Focus on your weight training first and foremost however and incorporate the cardio gradually at a rate that doesn't hinder your lifting. Mix up the cardio so some is moderate and some is high intensity. Ideally it should be fairly low impact so as not to fuck with your strength training however if you enjoy running theres no reason to stop. Just make sure the program you're on at the momment isn't making progressions that make linear progress on your lifts impossible to maintain.

3)A good diet for losing weight(esspecially if you lift weights) should be fairly high in protein. Unless you're made of money, reaching the totals you need per day is practically impossible without a protein supplament. Get as much as you realisticly can from healthy foods but don't stress if you need to take 1-3servings of whey/casein based protein powder a day in order to meet your needs.

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Nath
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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby Nath » Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:34 pm UTC

shocklocks wrote:3)A good diet for losing weight(esspecially if you lift weights) should be fairly high in protein. Unless you're made of money, reaching the totals you need per day is practically impossible without a protein supplament. Get as much as you realisticly can from healthy foods but don't stress if you need to take 1-3servings of whey/casein based protein powder a day in order to meet your needs.

There are cheap 'real food' sources of protein. Cottage cheese, for instance, costs about as much per gram of protein as that whey stuff you linked to.

shocklocks
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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby shocklocks » Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:34 pm UTC

There are cheap 'real food' sources of protein. Cottage cheese, for instance, costs about as much per gram of protein as that whey stuff you linked to.


I'd be surpised if you could name 5 foods that are as cheap(per gram of protein) as whey. On top of that i'd be suprised if they were also as low in fat and carbs. The only other one I can think of that comes close is canned tuna.Even then that was just a random price of that one site, i'm sure if he shopped around he could find a much better deal. Personally I buy extremely high quality pure unflavoured whey for roughly half the price per gram of protein that cottage cheese would cost me. Besides, I do eat cottage cheese 4days a week and the thought of eating it 4x as much to make up for the shakes i drink kind of makes my stomach turn. Not to mention the fact that it's a slow digesting protein and a poor choice to eat post workout(which is the time the majority of people who train,me included suppament with a shake.)

Not only that but i'm not entirely sure why you class cottage cheese as "real food" and casein powder as something you have reason to stay away from. They're both processed milk products and the protein in each is identical. The only difference is that cottage cheese also benefits gastronomical health. A 250g serving however is more then enough to provide that. There is practically no difference between having 500g of cottage cheese and having 250g of cottage cheese + a scoop of casein.

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Nath
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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby Nath » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:55 pm UTC

shocklocks wrote:I'd be surpised if you could name 5 foods that are as cheap(per gram of protein) as whey.

5 would take some thought. But eggs come pretty close if you buy them in reasonable quantities. Possibly also nuts -- I'd have to check.

shocklocks wrote:Not only that but i'm not entirely sure why you class cottage cheese as "real food" and casein powder as something you have reason to stay away from.

Not 'something you have to stay away from', but 'something you probably don't have to bother with'. I don't think it's harmful; just that there are reasonable alternatives if you'd prefer to get your food from food :).

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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby shocklocks » Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:42 pm UTC

5 would take some thought. But eggs come pretty close if you buy them in reasonable quantities. Possibly also nuts


Eggs are pretty cheap, however they're also extremely high in fat and taking the yoke out removes half the protein and practically all the nutrients. Nuts are hella expensive where I live and they're extremely calorie dense. For example in order to get 20g of protein out of raw, unsalted almonds you'd also have to take in 47grams of fat and 21grams of carbohydrate.

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Nath
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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby Nath » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:47 am UTC

shocklocks wrote:
5 would take some thought. But eggs come pretty close if you buy them in reasonable quantities. Possibly also nuts


Eggs are pretty cheap, however they're also extremely high in fat and taking the yoke out removes half the protein and practically all the nutrients. Nuts are hella expensive where I live and they're extremely calorie dense. For example in order to get 20g of protein out of raw, unsalted almonds you'd also have to take in 47grams of fat and 21grams of carbohydrate.

Yes, eggs have some fat, though they've still been found to increase HDL and decrease LDL cholesterol. As you observed, half of the protein is in the whites anyway, so people trying to reduce their fat intake can eat egg whites. (Yes, this loses a lot of good nutrients, but we're just looking for cheap protein here.) A whole egg or two per day is fine for most people anyway -- they only contain about 5g of fat each.

Peanuts can be pretty cheap -- I've seen them for 40 cents per serving, containing 15 grams of protein. Of course, you're right that these are pretty calorie dense, so someone trying to lose weight ought to go easy on them.

This article also has some interesting ideas. (Yes, I noticed #3 :).)

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mobikwa
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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby mobikwa » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:11 pm UTC

Kaf wrote:So that's my first post, be nice :D and because I'm kind, and just to end for clarity, the TL;DR version of the post
1) Are protein shakes and bars healthy? or are you better sticking to natural sources
2) For fat burning is a healthy mix of cardio and weights the way forwards?
3) Are the diet protein shakes and bars any good for what I need? and how are other peoples experiences with them?

Thanks :D


Since you did just start out I would suggest getting your diet in check first. Count your calories for a few days and see what you're eating. Dont worry about any supplements at this point, wait until you stop seeing results from just food.

1. They certainly are not unhealthy but at this stage you dont need them. They are called supplements for a reason, they supplement your diet when real foods arent enough.
2. yes, weights and cardio. I would suggest an hour of weights and then maybe 20-30 minutes of cardio after. Muscle burns calories all the time so having more of it means youll burn more calories just sitting there at the computer.
3. I lost about 125 lbs with just eating right and training, you can do it too.

Remember, this isn't a sprint, its a marathon and it will take time to see the results you want. Don't quit on yourself.

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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby shocklocks » Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:16 pm UTC

I wasn't saying eggs or nuts were bad for you, infact I have more then an egg or two a day :p. My points are mainly geared specificly towards someone losing weight. The article you listed is auctualy already a bookmark of mine and the first 8 sources are already regulars in my diet. The fact is however that the majority of those sources also include a significant amount of fats and carbs. This is all well and good for someone who doesn't need to lose weight(as their daily protein needs will be lower.) However someone trying to lose weight will generally meet their totals for carbs and fat through their regular diet and will need a way to buff up the amount of protein they're eating without adding additional fats/carbs. Egg whites(while still a fairly slow digesting protein) work but at roughly 3grams of protein a piece you'd need 8 of them to equal one serving of whey. Also seeing as you're removing the part that provides all the nutrients/fat you're pretty much only left with the protein. Meaning you arn't exactly gaining anything more by having eggwhites as opposed to whey.

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Nath
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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby Nath » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:51 pm UTC

Fair point.

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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby jtw » Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:42 pm UTC

Whey protein IS real food. As mentioned above, it's just extracted from milk during the cheese-making process. No one seems to have problems with buying/eating flour, or olive oil, or any number of other ingredients that have been processed. Ever seen a field of flour, or a lake of olive oil? Just because it doesn't preexist in that form doesn't mean it's not natural.

Protein powder/shakes are good for weight loss AND weight gain, as long as it's used appropriately. To lose weight, it has to serve as replacement for other foods and it works because it's a purer source of protein without extra fat and carbohydrates, and it's relatively filling (especially casein proteins). For weight gain, it's a good way to add extra "clean" calories as a supplement.

When I hear "supplements" for weight loss, I was thinking the OP was interested in stuff like HydroxyCut, or those other innumerable gimmicks. Generally those are to be avoided. Personally I avoid the premixed shakes and the protein bars, but only because they're way too expensive.

It's too bad Victoria Maddison isn't still around because she could answer your questions. I think you are best off focusing on a resistance/weight training program, with cardio exercise worked in occasionally.

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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby mobikwa » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:42 pm UTC

jtw wrote:Whey protein IS real food. As mentioned above, it's just extracted from milk during the cheese-making process. No one seems to have problems with buying/eating flour, or olive oil, or any number of other ingredients that have been processed. Ever seen a field of flour, or a lake of olive oil? Just because it doesn't preexist in that form doesn't mean it's not natural.

Whey protein is REAL in the same way that silicone tits are fake. They aren't imaginary, they exist, I can see them, I can squeeze them :wink:, but in one context they are fake. In my context whey protein is not a "real" food. My context being that real foods do not just have the macro nutrients that whey has, they have the trace vitamins and minerals that you need to stay healthy. Eating real solid meals will always be better than taking shakes (except post workout in my opinion)

jtw wrote:Protein powder/shakes are good for weight loss AND weight gain, as long as it's used appropriately.


The key words being "good" and "appropriately" It can be used to help lose weight but by no means is it necessary, take me for example. Appropriately is the other, when dieting losing weight people tend to eat low fat (lean meats) and low carb (away from sugar), introducing a few whey shakes a day to that will only throw your macro ratios more out of whack. As long as you drink your whey and keep the rest of your diet correct then you'll be fine and I would approve of the shakes.

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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby jtw » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:08 pm UTC

mobikwa wrote:Whey protein is REAL in the same way that silicone tits are fake. They aren't imaginary, they exist, I can see them, I can squeeze them :wink:, but in one context they are fake. In my context whey protein is not a "real" food. My context being that real foods do not just have the macro nutrients that whey has, they have the trace vitamins and minerals that you need to stay healthy. Eating real solid meals will always be better than taking shakes (except post workout in my opinion)

I fail to understand your "tits" argument. Real food has "trace vitamins and minerals"? I think I've heard that before on a commercial for Cheerios. How's that different from taking a multivitamin?

No one is recommending a diet of protein shakes. Those "trace vitamins and minerals" should still come from a proper diet of solid food. As a "Supplement" (in the title of the thread) protein shakes have their place in a diet, and that function varies based on one's own goals. Whey protein gives you some extra control over your diet.

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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby mobikwa » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:45 pm UTC

jtw wrote:I fail to understand your "tits" argument. Real food has "trace vitamins and minerals"? I think I've heard that before on a commercial for Cheerios. How's that different from taking a multivitamin?

No one is recommending a diet of protein shakes. Those "trace vitamins and minerals" should still come from a proper diet of solid food. As a "Supplement" (in the title of the thread) protein shakes have their place in a diet, and that function varies based on one's own goals. Whey protein gives you some extra control over your diet.


The tits thing sounded good in my head but came out bad, just like every one of my english essays my entire high school and college career. Forget it.

A multivitamin is a good part of any diet but the absorption of the vitamins and minerals in them is pitiful. Taking a day's worth of vitamin X or mineral Y in one sitting won't let your body absorb it all. A diet that has those same vitamins and minerals is still needed.

I completely agree with everything you just said. My point was just that supplements are not necessary to lose weight, which I believe you will agree with, and I just got carried away with my ego.

Anyway, Kaf, protein bars and shakes are ok to consume in weight loss. I wouldn't go for the ones you had there. I like the whey shocklocks posted by Optimum Nutrition, its actually the one I use but a different flavor.

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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby Victoria Maddison » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:17 am UTC

jtw wrote:It's too bad Victoria Maddison isn't still around because she could answer your questions.

I'm still here, just busy. I received half a dozen PMs, some of them asking me to stay, so I'll hang on and see if we can make a difference together.

jtw wrote:No one seems to have problems with buying/eating flour ... or any number of other ingredients that have been processed. Ever seen a field of flour, ... ? Just because it doesn't preexist in that form doesn't mean it's not natural.

Modern processed flour is fairly devoid of nutrients, so much so that manufacturers are required to fortify it with vitamins/minerals to make up for the nutrients they took out. Unfortunately the compounds they add back in are rarely as useful as those they removed.

Kaf wrote:I've been looking at getting Maximuscle Promax Diet and Maximuscle Promax Diet Bars but I'm not sure about the meal replacement strategy and just wondering if anyone else had tried using these and what their experiences were.

Meal replacement is not a good idea because the replacements lack the micronutrients of whole foods. I don't like the look of this diet, it's not healthy, and supplements with the wrong EFAs too.

Kaf wrote:the utter hippy that resides within me just tells me that it can't be natural, created in a lab somewhere ... so my first question is from people who use the shakes, do the benefits outweigh the doubts you have? Or do you prefer getting your protein from tried and tested real food.

Real food is always better, but there comes a point (usually for larger males) where it becomes hard to get enough protein from whole foods alone. Whey protein is natural, extracted from milk as other have mentioned, so there's nothing to be concerned about when using it to supplement a healthy diet. It just shouldn't be used to replace a healthy diet.

Kaf wrote:is this the best way to go about fat burning?

The best way to go about fat burning is by creating a mild caloric deficit of around 500 kcal/day which translates to approximately 1 lb/week fat loss. This deficit can come from dietary changes, exercise, or both. What's important is that a moderate deficit be used to ensure steady and prolonged weight loss as a large deficit often results in a suppressed metabolism and failure to stick to plan. Resistance training is recommended because it stops muscle tissue from being broken down. And of course a healthy diet rich in whole foods with little to no processed foods. Crossfitter's like to say "eat meat, vegetables, nuts and seeds, some fruit, little starch and no sugar," this works well.

Kaf wrote:Are protein shakes and bars healthy? or are you better sticking to natural sources

They're not harmful, but they only help to correct a deficiency in protein, nothing else.

Kaf wrote:Are the diet protein shakes and bars any good for what I need? and how are other peoples experiences with them?

When on a diet it's important to be consuming at least 1 g/lb protein but the shakes and bars they sell aren't special. I recommend against purchasing protein retail due to the grossly inflated price, usually around a 3-5x markup. Contact a wholesaler and grab a 20 kg (44 lb) bag of unflavored whey protein concentrate, it should cost no more than $200 USD and will last at least 6 months at 75 g protein/day or 9 months at 50 g protein/day. This assumes a protein content of 70% which is standard for whey protein concentrate; whey protein isolate is more like 90%. The taste is almost undetectable when mixed back into milk.

shocklocks wrote:On top of that claiming they have enough esential fatty acids(the ingredients say theres less then 2g per serving) to be a complete meal replacement is a fucking joke. Asuming your diet is 25-30% fat with a 1/3 of that total being EFA's it doesn't even come close.

What they appear to be advocating is an unusual form of protein sparing modified fast with a real meal each day for dinner. During a PSMF only around 6-10g of fat (n-3 EFAs) are deliberately consumed per day so that the calories from dietary fat (and carbohydrate) can removed from the equation, accelerating fat loss by creating a large deficit. It's not sustainable, or pleasant, but it works for rapid weight loss. However from the web pages linked they appear to be supplementing with n-6 which is stupid because the average western diet has too much of these (compared to n-3) as it is.

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Nath
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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby Nath » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:05 am UTC

Welcome back! :)

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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby TheSkyMovesSideways » Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:54 am UTC

Yes, great to have you and your expertise back, Victoria! :D
I had all kinds of plans in case of a zombie attack.
I just figured I'd be on the other side.
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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby Victoria Maddison » Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:35 pm UTC

Thanks guys :)

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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby Kachi » Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:14 am UTC

Protein is really not that hard to get... I have to wonder what people are eating that they struggle to get enough even when building muscle. Check the protein content of everything that you're eating and you might be surprised to learn that you're already getting a lot from all the foods that you don't traditionally think of as being good sources of protein. Unless you're really trying to do some serious bodybuilding, you're probably already fine. If you are trying to do some serious bodybuilding, just try to eat more protein rich foods (meat and dairy).

Most people can pretty easily manage 50g or so a day without even trying. If you're a larger person and trying to build muscle you may need closer to 200g for each day you work out, but seriously, eat some chicken or something. You can get about 90g of protein from about 500 calories worth of chicken. In addition to your other protein sources, it shouldn't take a whole lot of meat to fill in the gaps.

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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby shocklocks » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:15 am UTC

Urg. You're going to scare her away again :(

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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby Kachi » Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:26 am UTC

Me? I wasn't aware that I was scaring anyone. Oh well.

Boo!

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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby u38cg » Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:11 pm UTC

I don't think you're that scary. However, I was considering putting another enpanted pic on my thread: if that doesn't scare someone away, nothing will.
When will we win the war on memes?

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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby Jorpho » Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:20 pm UTC

No one seems to have mentioned that the protein bars tend to be a lot higher in sugar than the equivalent in whey protein.

Victoria Maddison wrote:Contact a wholesaler and grab a 20 kg (44 lb) bag of unflavored whey protein concentrate, it should cost no more than $200 USD and will last at least 6 months at 75 g protein/day or 9 months at 50 g protein/day.
I for one am scared of blowing $200 on something like that and then accidentally spilling it all over the floor or sneezing into it or something. At least if that happens with a $60 tub you're only out $60.

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Re: The next step - Suppliments (fat loss special)

Postby Victoria Maddison » Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:59 pm UTC

Jorpho wrote:I for one am scared of blowing $200 on something like that and then accidentally spilling it all over the floor or sneezing into it or something. At least if that happens with a $60 tub you're only out $60.

Whey doesn't come in resealable bags and would go off if you left it opened in the bag it came in. It needs to be transferred into multiple air tight food grade buckets (with lids) that can be purchased from virtually everywhere. Or if you're used to buying those $60 tubs just store it in your empties. The saving is several hundred dollars and it's no easier to spill than a 20 kg bag of potting mix.

With the $60 tubs it's like you're spilling 2 out of every 3 you buy every single time.


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