post-SS workout

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Woegjiub
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post-SS workout

Postby Woegjiub » Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:17 am UTC

I've reached the point where SS is almost below me, the next time I stall, I want to swap to a weekly progression.

Most people I've talked to about it seem to recommend westside for skinny bastards, however looking at it, I can say that the regular westside program sounds better in my case.

I'm wondering if westside really is one of the best workouts for what I'm after (my aims are strength, power, some endurance and mass).

Victoria Maddison
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Re: post-SS workout

Postby Victoria Maddison » Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:09 am UTC

Woegjiub wrote:I've reached the point where SS is almost below me, the next time I stall, I want to swap to a weekly progression.

What are your lifts and rest periods between sets?

Woegjiub wrote:I can say that the regular westside program sounds better in my case.

Westside is a collection of training principles not a single program, but I agree that WS4SB isn't the greatest application of these principles.

Woegjiub wrote:I'm wondering if westside really is one of the best workouts for what I'm after (my aims are strength, power, some endurance and mass).

It is, but it's best left to more advanced lifters, I don't think it would suit you. I'd recommend a Texas Method style program as it's usually the most efficient way to continue making progressing after novice gains stall.

Woegjiub
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Re: post-SS workout

Postby Woegjiub » Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:02 am UTC

Victoria Maddison wrote:What are your lifts and rest periods between sets?

(Bodyweight=65kg)
Squat 3x5 for 100kg
Dead 1x5 for 120kg
Press 3x5 for 52.5kg
Bench 3x5 for 72.5kg
2 mins rest between sets
I'm slightly lower than those atm because I decided I wanted to lose some fat before I progressed and started eating clean foods like mad again.

Woegjiub wrote:It is, but it's best left to more advanced lifters, I don't think it would suit you. I'd recommend a Texas Method style program as it's usually the most efficient way to continue making progressing after novice gains stall.

Why would you recommend that in particular?
Because I had thought adding isolation as well as compounds would be more beneficial.... I was wrong?

Victoria Maddison
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Re: post-SS workout

Postby Victoria Maddison » Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:49 am UTC

Woegjiub wrote:Bodyweight=65kg

I hope you're eating something as you read this ;)

Woegjiub wrote:2 mins rest between sets

This is too low and probably caused the stall you mentioned earlier. Increase your rest between sets as necessary up to around 8 minutes or so before considering moving to weekly progress. Milk the novice gains for as long as you can.

Woegjiub wrote:Why would you recommend that in particular?

Like I said it's efficient, simple, and would give you many months more gains. It's the next logical step. A stall on a TM style program is generally easy to fix because there are few things that can go wrong. Also the heavy volume day of a TM program would provide the stimulus necessary to gain weight more so than a typical WS routine.

Woegjiub wrote:Because I had thought adding isolation as well as compounds would be more beneficial.... I was wrong?

I don't understand how this follows from your previous post. The vast majority of training at Westside Barbell is compound lifts. If you want to incorporate isolation work into a TM/WS style
program though go right ahead. Isolation work is either GPP or accessory work done to correct a deficiency holding back your core lifts, it's always done with a purpose. The GHR for example is a very good isolation exercise to develop the hamstrings, if you have weak hamstrings you should be doing GHRs to help your squat and deadlift. The curl on the other hand will not help your squat and adding extra fatigue will make recovery harder.

Woegjiub
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Re: post-SS workout

Postby Woegjiub » Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:04 am UTC

Victoria Maddison wrote:
Woegjiub wrote:Bodyweight=65kg

I hope you're eating something as you read this ;)

Well, I'm only 175cm tall, and I started off at 50ish for the same height.
I'm basically cutting at 2000kcal/day 40:30:30 until I get my sixpack back, I am vain :s.

Woegjiub wrote:2 mins rest between sets

This is too low and probably caused the stall you mentioned earlier. Increase your rest between sets as necessary up to around 8 minutes or so before considering moving to weekly progress. Milk the novice gains for as long as you can.

Seriously 8 minutes....? :o That's 2 hours of waiting per session.... wow.

Victoria Maddison wrote:
Woegjiub wrote:Why would you recommend that in particular?

Like I said it's efficient, simple, and would give you many months more gains. It's the next logical step. A stall on a TM style program is generally easy to fix because there are few things that can go wrong. Also the heavy volume day of a TM program would provide the stimulus necessary to gain weight more so than a typical WS routine.

Awesome, thanks :)

Victoria Maddison wrote:
Woegjiub wrote:Because I had thought adding isolation as well as compounds would be more beneficial.... I was wrong?

I don't understand how this follows from your previous post. The vast majority of training at Westside Barbell is compound lifts. If you want to incorporate isolation work into a TM/WS style
program though go right ahead. Isolation work is either GPP or accessory work done to correct a deficiency holding back your core lifts, it's always done with a purpose. The GHR for example is a very good isolation exercise to develop the hamstrings, if you have weak hamstrings you should be doing GHRs to help your squat and deadlift. The curl on the other hand will not help your squat and adding extra fatigue will make recovery harder.

Well, it's got more isolation than SS, and I'd never move to having more isolation than compound.
haha, Curls for the Girls :p
Would you recommend adding in goodmornings somewhere if my back has been limiting my squats?
It's like... My legs can lift the weight, but my back can't support my torso with that much on.

Victoria Maddison
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Re: post-SS workout

Postby Victoria Maddison » Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:52 am UTC

Woegjiub wrote:I'm basically cutting at 2000kcal/day 40:30:30 until I get my sixpack back, I am vain :s.

I don't think you'll be able to gain weight while keeping your six pack.

Woegjiub wrote:Seriously 8 minutes....? :o That's 2 hours of waiting per session.... wow.

Pardon? Did you go 3x5x8 = 120? That's not how you work it out hehe. A typical SS workout is 3x5 squat, 3x5 bench press, 1x5 deadlift, plus your warm up sets which I never rested for. At 5 minutes for each exercise warm up, 8 minutes per work set, and 1 minute to complete the set, a conservative estimate of the time required to complete the entire workout would be 78 minutes max. That's only 1 hour 18 minutes total.

However rest periods for sets across are generally ramped, one normally doesn't need 8 minutes rest after their warm up, maybe 4 minutes will suffice, and then after the first set maybe only 5-6 minutes are required, then the next set 7-8. Take as much rest as is required to make the next set, not an arbitrary number.

Woegjiub wrote:Well, it's got more isolation than SS

SS is for novices though, whose problem is they're weak everywhere.

Woegjiub wrote:Would you recommend adding in goodmornings somewhere if my back has been limiting my squats?
It's like... My legs can lift the weight, but my back can't support my torso with that much on.

I think your problem is likely technique related rather than strength related, but I can't say without seeing you squat.

Woegjiub
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Re: post-SS workout

Postby Woegjiub » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:38 pm UTC

Victoria Maddison wrote:I don't think you'll be able to gain weight while keeping your six pack.

I know that, I just wanted to drop some fat before I went to gain weight again, so as not to end up with nasty flab.

Victoria Maddison wrote:Pardon? Did you go 3x5x8 = 120? That's not how you work it out hehe. A typical SS workout is 3x5 squat, 3x5 bench press, 1x5 deadlift, plus your warm up sets which I never rested for. At 5 minutes for each exercise warm up, 8 minutes per work set, and 1 minute to complete the set, a conservative estimate of the time required to complete the entire workout would be 78 minutes max. That's only 1 hour 18 minutes total.
However rest periods for sets across are generally ramped, one normally doesn't need 8 minutes rest after their warm up, maybe 4 minutes will suffice, and then after the first set maybe only 5-6 minutes are required, then the next set 7-8. Take as much rest as is required to make the next set, not an arbitrary number.


I went 3x8 mins squat rest, 3x8 mins press rest, 3x8 mins clean rest, 4x8 mins pullups/chinups rest, 2x8 mins hanging leg raises rest.
But I'll try resting a bit more, I've generally not been able to judge when was enough rest, so I just went for it straight after my partner.

SS is for novices though, whose problem is they're weak everywhere.

Ahh, ok. I'm happy I'm almost out of the novice category for my weight :)

I think your problem is likely technique related rather than strength related, but I can't say without seeing you squat.

I'd tend to agree with you, it's very hard to get the technique working near my 5RM, my technique fails on squats, deads and presses near my max - that's actually the reason I kept deloading, because I could do it, but my technique went out the window.

Victoria Maddison
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Re: post-SS workout

Postby Victoria Maddison » Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:11 pm UTC

Woegjiub wrote:I went 3x8 mins squat rest, 3x8 mins press rest, 3x8 mins clean rest, 4x8 mins pullups/chinups rest, 2x8 mins hanging leg raises rest.

The pullups, chinups and hanging leg raises are accessory work, they should never be pushed as hard as the core lifts and so only require minimal rest, a few minutes at most. Unless you take the chinups to failure, then they'd be better off with 4-5 minutes. The cleans don't require 8 minutes of rest either, and should be performed at 5x3 not 3x5 like the squat.

Woegjiub wrote:Ahh, ok. I'm happy I'm almost out of the novice category for my weight :)

If you're referring to those categorized strength tables keep in mind that they're only averages, you're a novice lifter for as long as you can keep making gains workout to workout. They're 1RMs by the way, so you actually are squatting more than the base intermediate category for your weight class.

Woegjiub wrote:I'd tend to agree with you, it's very hard to get the technique working near my 5RM, my technique fails on squats, deads and presses near my max - that's actually the reason I kept deloading, because I could do it, but my technique went out the window.

This needs to be fixed before you can progress to an intermediate routine because it will only get worse under the harder program. Read Starting Strength and/or find an experienced lifter in your gym to critique your form.

Woegjiub
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Re: post-SS workout

Postby Woegjiub » Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:17 pm UTC

oooh, thanks heaps, you're awesome!

My form's correct... as long as I don't go near higher weights....
Then, one muscle or another will give out, and my form will follow as others are compensating that shouldn't be.

Victoria Maddison
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Re: post-SS workout

Postby Victoria Maddison » Sat Sep 19, 2009 5:08 am UTC

Woegjiub wrote:My form's correct... as long as I don't go near higher weights....
Then, one muscle or another will give out, and my form will follow as others are compensating that shouldn't be.

Every time you go up in weight with bad form you're compounding the problem. Initially the muscles wouldn't have actually been giving out, they would simply be saying "hey this is really heavy" and subconsciously your body shifts the load onto stronger muscles.

For example, when a person's knees cave in on the squat from weak adductors the load is placed on the quads. Focusing on pushing the knees out would result in the adductors being forced to adapt. But failing to do so, and continuing with bad form means they never adapt and eventually you actually are squatting more than they can handle and from then on your form wont recover until you back off and work your way back up with proper form, which can waste weeks/months of training time.

This is why it's best to nip form problems in the bud.

Woegjiub
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Re: post-SS workout

Postby Woegjiub » Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:53 am UTC

So, my back hurting would indicate that I've been basically doing squatmornings? Damn it.

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mobikwa
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Re: post-SS workout

Postby mobikwa » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:09 pm UTC

SS cannot work on a cut. You can't rest in time for the next workout. Ive tried and failed a week into it, when I started eating more I stopped failing.

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Ingolifs
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Re: post-SS workout

Postby Ingolifs » Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:26 am UTC

What does SS stand for?
I belong to the tautologist's school of thought, that science is by definition, science.

Woegjiub
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Re: post-SS workout

Postby Woegjiub » Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:48 am UTC


+ranslucent
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Re: post-SS workout

Postby +ranslucent » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:45 am UTC

I believe there's an Advanced Novice program on the SS wiki, you may want to check it out.

Hm, I just thought of something. Let's say after SS (I'm a few weeks into it at the moment), I'm happy with the amount of mass I have and want to cut. As far as I know, introducing some cardio and eating less and eating clean are essential for this, but what about the workout? Do I perform SS with less sets/reps, or do I shift to another program?

Victoria Maddison
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Re: post-SS workout

Postby Victoria Maddison » Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:46 am UTC

+ranslucent wrote:Hm, I just thought of something. Let's say after SS (I'm a few weeks into it at the moment), I'm happy with the amount of mass I have and want to cut. As far as I know, introducing some cardio and eating less and eating clean are essential for this, but what about the workout? Do I perform SS with less sets/reps, or do I shift to another program?

"After SS" is when SS no longer works so naturally you'll be following another program. When cutting, lifting intensity should remain high to prevent loss of strength and mass, but volume and training frequency can be reduced if/as necessary. If you consume enough protein (1.25 g/lb), keep your carbohydrate intake at a reasonable level that supports your lifting, don't do unnecessary cardio and maintain a mild caloric deficit through your diet you can continue to get stronger while losing fat.

psyck0
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Re: post-SS workout

Postby psyck0 » Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:21 am UTC

For cutting, I think you're supposed to do fewer reps at higher weights to best maintain muscle mass. Am I right?

+ranslucent
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Re: post-SS workout

Postby +ranslucent » Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:13 pm UTC

Victoria Maddison wrote:
+ranslucent wrote:Hm, I just thought of something. Let's say after SS (I'm a few weeks into it at the moment), I'm happy with the amount of mass I have and want to cut. As far as I know, introducing some cardio and eating less and eating clean are essential for this, but what about the workout? Do I perform SS with less sets/reps, or do I shift to another program?

"After SS" is when SS no longer works so naturally you'll be following another program. When cutting, lifting intensity should remain high to prevent loss of strength and mass, but volume and training frequency can be reduced if/as necessary. If you consume enough protein (1.25 g/lb), keep your carbohydrate intake at a reasonable level that supports your lifting, don't do unnecessary cardio and maintain a mild caloric deficit through your diet you can continue to get stronger while losing fat.


Are there any programs out there as good for cutting as SS is for bulking?

psyck0
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Re: post-SS workout

Postby psyck0 » Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:02 pm UTC

Cutting is all about diet. It has very little to do with what you lift. If you're doing a real cut your strength probably won't be increasing (or not increasing fast) so you just want to keep doing to the gym and doing max strength work and some cardio. Losing the fat is 90% diet, though, so there really is no "plan" for it.

Keeping a small caloric deficit while you're a beginner/intermediate lifter so that you can continue to increase your strength while losing fat isn't really cutting. Just do whatever plan is most appropriate to your strength level for that.

iowasnowboarder
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Re: post-SS workout

Postby iowasnowboarder » Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:22 pm UTC

Rip would give you really simple advice on this EAT MORE!. Yeah, you're only 5'8", yes you weight 65 kg (140 lbs) but seriously are you in middle school? Eat more meat, drink the f-ing milk and get stronger. If you aren't getting enough calories no program is going to make you stronger, especially over a short time frame.

You posted about SS, I hope you've therefore read SS, EAT MORE, GOMAD. If you are getting the right number of calories, you will increase the weight your putting up.
Also, you talk about cutting. Seriously, WTF for? You weigh the same as my St Bernard. Pick your goal, skinny guy or big strong guy. Go to this site www.70sbig.com, (kinda sorta not WFS all the time)

You aren't out of the linear progression yet, hell your backsquat is my bodyweight. Eat more, pick up heavy things, get stronger...pretty simple

Woegjiub
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Re: post-SS workout

Postby Woegjiub » Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:40 pm UTC

iowasnowboarder wrote:Rip would give you really simple advice on this EAT MORE!. Yeah, you're only 5'8", yes you weight 65 kg (140 lbs) but seriously are you in middle school? Eat more meat, drink the f-ing milk and get stronger. If you aren't getting enough calories no program is going to make you stronger, especially over a short time frame.

You posted about SS, I hope you've therefore read SS, EAT MORE, GOMAD. If you are getting the right number of calories, you will increase the weight your putting up.
Also, you talk about cutting. Seriously, WTF for? You weigh the same as my St Bernard. Pick your goal, skinny guy or big strong guy. Go to this site http://www.70sbig.com, (kinda sorta not WFS all the time)

You aren't out of the linear progression yet, hell your backsquat is my bodyweight. Eat more, pick up heavy things, get stronger...pretty simple

Yeah, that's the hardest bit - losing the sixpack, even if it is only for a few months really gets to me.
I'm going to have to get over being fatter if I want to gain muscle though, eh?

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WholeLottaSean
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Re: post-SS workout

Postby WholeLottaSean » Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:56 pm UTC

six packs are overrated. its easier to have a 'sixpack' from being really skinny than it is to work hard on becoming strong.


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