Deathless Mafia - GAME CANCELLED!

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SirGabriel
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby SirGabriel » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:30 pm UTC

Vytron wrote:In any case, Sir, how do you know Maident is cult, and not alien or zombie?

I targeted Echo, and my recruit failed. This means either Echo was cult, Echo was zombie, or Echo was targeted by cult. Given maident's claim to be mason who targeted Echo, the last case seems most likely.

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Echo244
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby Echo244 » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:30 pm UTC

OK, now I'm confused again, because I assumed Vytron was cult finding a way to avoid a mason claim.

maident and SirG are looking like cult and mason. Dunno which way round, maident smells townier but nothing proven. Vytron's something... else. Possibly alien.

Frogman needs to claim. Though is smelling undead anyway.

I'm hoping the clash over me supports my claim, though really it only rules me out as Cult.

New suggestion... um. Gonna have to think about this. Vytron, maidentOrSirG, and frogman are the starting baddies. We've got one zombie, one alien, probably one infected, one cultist (but we don't know who!)...

How about this: We lynch frogman. Yeah, I know I'm agreeing with Vytron who just claimed my role, but here's the logic: Either frogman's the zombie, only one person got bitten and we can lynch them tomorrow when he tells us who that is. Or he's Alien and we know who to block with night powers. maident and SirG target each other, we lose the masons but we townify the cultist and they can tell us who to Shrink if they don't wipe out the mason group. Vytron and I... we can just FoS the heck out of until we have more information. patzer self-doctors tonight, tomorrow can target whoever looks most undead.

Am I making sense or do I need to get some sleep to explain this coherently?
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby Vytron » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:47 pm UTC

That sounds good, yeah.

frogman just messed up, let's punish them.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby frogman » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:06 pm UTC

Apologies for my failure to claim! I'm the shrink. I think probably lynching me is bad because I'm the shrink, and therefore town-aligned.

I'm inclined to believe maident over SirGabriel. maident claimed early with both role and target. This is just my intuition, but I don't think cult!maident would mention that the cult action failed. Such an action couldn't be sustainable in the long run - the best case for town there is that maident had targeted the mason, who would have mason buddies that would immediately recognize the lie, and certainly later more and more people would be masons and therefore also know that maident was certainly cult. Also, the idea that SirG and maident both targeted Echo seems far too convenient. My guess is SirGabriel being the cultist and Echo being the zombie, although I feel stronger about the first.

Vote: SirGabriel
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby SirGabriel » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:28 pm UTC

frogman wrote:Apologies for my failure to claim! I'm the shrink. I think probably lynching me is bad because I'm the shrink, and therefore town-aligned.

I'm inclined to believe maident over SirGabriel. maident claimed early with both role and target. This is just my intuition, but I don't think cult!maident would mention that the cult action failed. Such an action couldn't be sustainable in the long run - the best case for town there is that maident had targeted the mason, who would have mason buddies that would immediately recognize the lie, and certainly later more and more people would be masons and therefore also know that maident was certainly cult. Also, the idea that SirG and maident both targeted Echo seems far too convenient. My guess is SirGabriel being the cultist and Echo being the zombie, although I feel stronger about the first.

Vote: SirGabriel

But if I were cult, what would I gain by claiming mason? I expected that once I claimed mason, either myself or maident would get lynched. If I were cult, even if we lynched maident tonight, I would probably be lynched the following night. And, as Echo pointed out, because of my mason claim we can now guarantee that cult loses.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby frogman » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:40 pm UTC

Well, if you were cult then you would have had to claim something. People are out for blood for people who haven't yet claimed. Cult claiming mason seems to be a reasonable course of action because they are essentially indistinguishable if you just observe their actions now that the cop is gone.
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby patzer » Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:42 am UTC

Right, everyone's claimed now.

Claims:

Echo244, Vytron, frogman - shrink
patzer - doctor
Dr Ug - former cop (sorry about that)
maident, SirGabriel - mason

Dr Ug and I are the only confirmed town players; we both have no penalty points.

(I expected someone to counterclaim cop, given that that would be such a reasonable and believable counterclaim. Luckily, nobody did)

I'm inclined to believe maident's claim over SirGabriel's- she was the first player to claim today, which would be quite a risk to take for scum, whereas SirGabriel's claim seems like opportune copycatting.

But out greatest chance to catch scum surely comes from {Echo244, Vytron, frogman}, at least two of whom are not town.

Out of those, I think frogman is the most suspicious, so:

Vote: frogman
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby maident » Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:34 am UTC

Catching up now.
Unofficial Votals (at start of post)
Frogman(2) - Vytron, Patzer
Echo244(1) - Maident
Vytron(1) - Echo244
Maident(1) - SirGabriel
SirGabriel(1) - Frogman

Looking over the claims and counter-claims and strategies, I am inclined to go for SirGabriel, but am not averse to lynching Echo244.
Possible situations from my POV:
Mason and cult both targeted Echo244 and cancelled each other out. ->SirGabriel is cult.
Mason targeted Echo244 who was cult and is now town -> SirGabriel is still anti-town due to counter-claim.
Mason targeted Echo244 who is zombie and is still zombie -> Echo244 is anti town.

I won't be switching my vote just yet however. I am interested in more discussion, especially if I missed a situation in my tired state.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby Lawrencelot » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:18 am UTC

Lawrencelot, what happens if the Mason recruits the Cultist while the Cultist presumably targets someone else?

Cultist becomes town (not mason) when recruited by the Mason, see the role interaction table. I also added some events there when someone is targeted by multiple roles for those interested.

Current votes:
frogman (2): Vytron, patzer
Echo244 (1): maident
Vytron (1): Echo244
maident (1): SirGabriel
SirGabriel (1): frogman

Not voting (1): Dr Ug
4 votes required to lynch.

Deadline: Thursday October 29, 20:00h GMT
(~34 hours from now)

Don't forget to send me your actions before the deadline or hammer vote. You can also change them at any time. Please include the current game day in your message.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby Echo244 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:48 am UTC

Right, but does the cultist's recruit work before they get townified, and we have a new lonely cultist, or does mason-targeting-cult just wipe out the cult?

OK. New reads:

patzer - Doctor, can't have been recruited, will self-treat to cure any infection,
Dr. Ug - Ex-cop, nobody can have messed with him yet.

SirG - mason. Late claim was weaker than maident's but his agreement with my guarantee-cult-loses strategy (or at least I think it's a safe bet) makes me think he's town.
maident - cult. Good strong early mason claim, but now dithering and focussing on SirG as lynch target rather than discussing the cross-recruit strategy. Why don't you like this, maident? We may lose the mason, but the cultist gets converted, and can spill the beans once townified.

Vytron - Possibly zombie, possibly alien.
frogman - leaving his claim to last to see what was safest, then joined the Shrink party. Possibly zombie, possibly alien.

Vytron's eagerness to lynch frogman makes me think Vytron's probably the zombier of the two now. That buys him an extra night to bite someone. I'd expect the alien to have pushed back against me, because that would be removing a power role from the game (and a power role can stop the alien probing anyone).

I'll leave my vote on Vytron for now; I have a slight preference for lynching him over frogman, but would happily lynch either. I'd like views on the guarantee-cult-loses strategy, alongside whether to lynch Vytron or frogman.
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby Lawrencelot » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:51 am UTC

Right, but does the cultist's recruit work before they get townified, and we have a new lonely cultist, or does mason-targeting-cult just wipe out the cult?

The cultist's recruit will not be cancelled. Same when cultist recruits mason and mason recruits someone else.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby Echo244 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:59 am UTC

OK, so by the cross-recruit strategy, as long as the mason plays with a straight bat (and isn't redirected by an alien probe, which is a long shot) it will townify the cultist. We'll either have a new cultist, whose identity can be revealed by the ex-cultist, or lose the mason group in return. Anyone see any problems with that?

Meanwhile, we can lynch one of Vytron or frogman to either cure a zombie or out the alien.
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby Vytron » Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:25 am UTC

I don't know what adjective I'd use to refer to frogman's late-claim... maybe... cute? He doesn't even say who they targeted.

patzer wrote:(I expected someone to counterclaim cop, given that that would be such a reasonable and believable counterclaim. Luckily, nobody did)


Interesting, what is this about? Would someone claim that they're the cop and that Dr Ug was lying? Because, Dr Ug is now vanilla town, he doesn't have a reason to lie.

In any case, Echo is scum, frogman is scum, and one from maident or Sir is scum. I guess it's the time I'd be pissed if people lynch me and we lose or something...

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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby Echo244 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:40 am UTC

Vytron wrote:I guess it's the time I'd be pissed if people lynch me and we lose or something...


I don't mind being lynched, I'd stay town, as long as we have a strategy for dealing with you as well. Would you be equally happy being lynched while I was targeted by a power role?

What do you think of the anti-cult strategy?

Also, I agree that patzer's expectation of a cop counterclaim is odd because Dr Ug has no reason to lie. That's a solid claim and anything opposing it would look scummy by comparison. But nyuh, she's confirmed town. What-iffery on that line is just distraction.
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby patzer » Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:30 am UTC

Vytron wrote:Interesting, what is this about? Would someone claim that they're the cop and that Dr Ug was lying? Because, Dr Ug is now vanilla town, he doesn't have a reason to lie.


Well, if Dr Ug had originally been non-town, then he would have gained a penalty point when he became VT, and a VT with penalty points can't be assumed to be trustworthy.
But that's irrelevant now that the cop claim is confirmed, so let's move on.

Echo244 wrote:OK, so by the cross-recruit strategy, as long as the mason plays with a straight bat (and isn't redirected by an alien probe, which is a long shot) it will townify the cultist. We'll either have a new cultist, whose identity can be revealed by the ex-cultist, or lose the mason group in return. Anyone see any problems with that?


Seems like it's worth a shot- regardless of what happens, there will be no more than one cultist left, and potentially zero.

So, maident and SirGabriel target each other tonight, and we lynch one of {Echo, Vytron, frogman} today. Out of those three, I think we should lynch frogman, as the likelihood that he's telling the truth and actually is the shrink is very low.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands. –Douglas Adams

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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby maident » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:53 pm UTC

Neither of us had the answer to your bolded question at the time of my post, Echo244.
Now that we have that information, along with additional discussion around Frogman, I am switching my vote.

Vote: Frogman

As for the strategy mentioned, we're risking a lot for cult to follow a plan that, if I were in their shoes, would make no sense to follow. Nonetheless, I have targeted SirGabriel.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby Echo244 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:31 pm UTC

...sorry, where's the risk?

As long as the Mason targets the cultist, we should be fine.

If the Cultist targets the Mason, we lose the Mason and get a vanilla town, but the cult is gone and we can zombie-hunt.

If the Cultist targets anyone else, either (a) they're a zombie and nothing happens, or (b) at the start of D3, some poor schmuck is a brand new lonely cultist. Who will promptly get outed by their ex-cult recruiter, and can be lynched D3. We wind up the cult from the head down, at the cost of some poor town player getting a couple of penalty points.

If I'm missing something, please say.

(Also, we're at lynch-1 I think, I'm intensely relaxed about leaving my vote on Vytron while we talk the day out but I'd happily hammer if we're done)
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby frogman » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:31 pm UTC

Vytron wrote:I don't know what adjective I'd use to refer to frogman's late-claim... maybe... cute?


Aww, thanks! You're cute too :3

He doesn't even say who they targeted.


I targeted Vytron.
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby maident » Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:29 am UTC

Well I just reread the interaction table :oops:
Sorry, it looks like I was mistaken by the risk. Thank you for explaining it Echo244.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby Vytron » Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:01 am UTC

Yeah, like "awww, just look at this little attempt by this scum player to play a late-claim."

But anyway, it doesn't seem to matter, we're on the right track.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby patzer » Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:54 am UTC

He also claimed to have not followed our plan and targeted Vytron instead of me...

At this point, I think it's just an attempt to appear so hilariously incompetent that we'll think it's wifom.

He's probably the alien- if he was zombie or cultist he would have surely been more careful to not reveal himself- but it will still be very good for us to know who the alien is.

Okay, I've targeted myself tonight, to remove any potential zombie infection of course. Can everyone confirm that they've sent their night actions and intend to follow our plan?

After this, someone can hammer frogman.
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby Vytron » Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:17 am UTC

I think the best thing you can do is lie about it (you claim to target yourself, but not*) or to be open about the possibility of lying (you target yourself, but pretend you could be lying**) as this is the only way to give some chance to the doctor to save someone instead of just keeping you as confirmed town.

*This is strictly better because if you went to do this, scum will not target you and you may protect someone

**And this is still better since, you were going to protect yourself anyway, this just causes scum to have some chance to target you at night - because if the chance is 0 you better not target yourself

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby Lawrencelot » Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:41 am UTC

Current votes:
frogman (3): Vytron, patzer, maident
Vytron (1): Echo244
maident (1): SirGabriel
SirGabriel (1): frogman

Not voting (1): Dr Ug
4 votes required to lynch.

Deadline: Thursday October 29, 20:00h GMT
(~11 hours from now)

Don't forget to send me your actions before the deadline or hammer vote. You can also change them at any time. Please include the current game day in your message.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby Echo244 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:15 am UTC

My actions are sent. Though I'm rethinking them a bit.

Good advice from Vytron on how to maintain uncertainty to make the zombie question their actions. Somewhat makes me suspect that he *is* the zombie, and has already chosen his target.
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby patzer » Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:10 am UTC

Echo244 wrote:Good advice from Vytron on how to maintain uncertainty to make the zombie question their actions. Somewhat makes me suspect that he *is* the zombie, and has already chosen his target.


Yep, I'd already thought of what he said, and have considered not protecting myself tonight. For obvious reasons, I won't reveal what my final decision was.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands. –Douglas Adams

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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby Dr Ug » Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:52 am UTC

I'm convinced.

Vote: frogman

(that's hammer I think)
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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby Lawrencelot » Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:28 pm UTC

Final Day 2 votes:
frogman (4): Vytron, patzer, maident, Dr Ug
Vytron (1): Echo244
maident (1): SirGabriel
SirGabriel (1): frogman

Not voting (0):
4 votes required to lynch.

frogman has been lynched.

It is now Night 2. Targets cannot be changed. Processing night actions...

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby patzer » Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:38 pm UTC

Lawrencelot wrote:It is now Night 2.


I shall take the opportunity to make the first ever post during the night.

But the night is 0 minutes long.

So maybe it's day 3 already?
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands. –Douglas Adams

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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day two

Postby Lawrencelot » Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:45 pm UTC

"I come in peace! Really!" The angry mob angrily walked towards frogman while he kept shouting this sentence. When Dr Ug took a large hammer and smashed it on frogman with all his force, something strange happened. The hammer broke, and for a second a shield could be seen around frogman. "He's an alien! He's the one responsible for those crop circles and dead cows in our village!" Frogman flew away, but came back the following morning. He still had some unfinished business in this town.

frogman is the Alien! He did not turn into a vanilla townie.

It is now Day 3. If you have not received a pm from me, nothing has changed for you. 4 votes are required to lynch. Deadline: Tuesday October 3rd, 20:00h GMT.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day three

Postby Echo244 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:51 pm UTC

There's a short gap between Night falling and Day breaking, patzer, when it's not the next Day yet. Lawrencelot needs time to process results. He's only human.

Unlike frogman. Frogman, who have you probed? I mean, I expect a lie. But meh, I might as well ask.

I have received no PM. I am still the Shrink. I am still aligned Town.

I used my power to protect patzer last night, just in case the Cultist targeted her as being one of the best ways to preserve the Cult long-term. I was dithering about targeting Vytron instead, to block any attempt to probe someone, but I decided he was almost certainly the zombie, so I decided to try and protect Town from Cult action instead.

maident and SirG, I'd like to hear from you both. Who was the cultist?
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day three

Postby patzer » Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:22 pm UTC

Echo244 wrote:There's a short gap between Night falling and Day breaking, patzer, when it's not the next Day yet. Lawrencelot needs time to process results. He's only human.


of course, I was just joking :)

patzer wrote, on day one: wrote:p.s.

For some reason, my instinct is saying that frogman is the alien.

I have no evidence for this, and am probably wrong. Just throwing this out there so I can brag about it later on the off-chance that I am correct :P


I was right. Yay.

I agree, maident and SirGabriel should post next.
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day three

Postby frogman » Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:56 pm UTC

patzer wrote:
patzer wrote, on day one: wrote:p.s.

For some reason, my instinct is saying that frogman is the alien.

I have no evidence for this, and am probably wrong. Just throwing this out there so I can brag about it later on the off-chance that I am correct :P


I was right. Yay.


That was pretty impressive! Was it just a gut feeling?

Unlike frogman. Frogman, who have you probed? I mean, I expect a lie. But meh, I might as well ask.


It would be a lie, if I told you.

I'm honestly not sure how much I'm expected to contribute to the thread now that I've been outed. Town is almost certainly lost, in any case, with two lynches not against zombie or cult.
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day three

Postby Echo244 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:12 pm UTC

Town is in a bit of a tough place. But we should have taken out the leader of the cult, if not the cult entire, at this point. Vytron's the zombie. Whoever he bit N1, unless maident or patzer, is a zombie. Whoever he bit N2, unless patzer, is infected.

We can reduce the numbers to one zombie, and one infected, if we lynch/doctor Vytron and I - both of us get cleared as Town, then we definitely get the first zombie, and can lynch/doctor whoever he bit, chasing the infection.

It's not lost. There's a bit of chasing to do but we still have power roles plus the lynch.

Anyway. maident and SirG?

Oh and

Vote: Vytron

Because I might as well get that in early. ;-D
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day three

Postby patzer » Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:09 pm UTC

frogman wrote:That was pretty impressive! Was it just a gut feeling?


Sort of.

Thinking back to then, I think a few things inspired my gut feeling:
you were being helpful to town and seemed honest, but on the other hand were posting very little and seemed like you were trying to blend in with the crowd,

Also, I think you had posted in the Gojoe about twenty minutes after making a relatively contentless post in this thread. That's a fairly large length of time, and implies a sizeable post inside the Gojoe spoiler- if you were town, why would you have posted all of that there and not here?
And I've noticed in the past that non-town roles seem to make most of the posts in the Gojoe. (Or, at least, significantly more than would proportionally be expected) (though obviously some players post much more in the Gojoe than others regardless of role)

I don't think it's morally right to use metadata from the Gojoe as a form of evidence, which is why I didn't say anything about it. I wasn't intentionally looking for such evidence; it just came to me unexpectedly.
See, that's the problem with the Gojoe. The knowledge that a spoiler exists can be important, despite us not knowing what's inside the spoiler.

But the Gojoe serves an important purpose. It's an outlet of players' thoughts, the linguistic equivalent of a pensieve. And if we were to start using metadata from there as evidence, people would stop posting there. And that would be a shame.

That's why I intend to never use Gojoe metadata as evidence, and encourage others to do the same.
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patzer
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day three

Postby patzer » Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:27 pm UTC

Rather amusingly, frogman has posted in the Gojoe, the post being presumably related to my last post about Gojoe metadata.

Either that, or it's a short self-referential comment about how I'll probably misinterpret said comment.

...anyway I said I wouldn't try to glean information from Gojoe metadata, so I'll stop speculating now.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands. –Douglas Adams

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maident
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day three

Postby maident » Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:38 pm UTC

SirGabriel did not confirm his action..?
I'm still Mason from my PM, although I could be infected/probed and not know it.

Ideas/Strategies for dealing with the alien?

More later.

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Echo244
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day three

Postby Echo244 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:41 pm UTC

I want to hear from SirG.

But if you are still the mason, please recruit the Alien. ;-D
Unstoppable force of nature. That means she/her/hers.
Has committed an act of treason.

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patzer
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day three

Postby patzer » Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:07 pm UTC

Echo244 wrote:But if you are still the mason, please recruit the Alien. ;-D


I fail to see what benefit that would bring us. A masonic alien is still an alien, and just as unlikely to give us assistance.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands. –Douglas Adams

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Echo244
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day three

Postby Echo244 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:18 pm UTC

From game 1, you changed my win condition when you recruited me. It's not just chat. It's win condition too. A masonic alien is town, wins when there are no more cultists or zombies.

Plus the recruitment counts as a night action targeted at the alien, preventing the alien from planting a probe that night. So even if the worst comes to the worst, that's one fewer human mind probed.
Unstoppable force of nature. That means she/her/hers.
Has committed an act of treason.

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patzer
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day three

Postby patzer » Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:40 pm UTC

Echo244 wrote:From game 1, you changed my win condition when you recruited me. It's not just chat. It's win condition too. A masonic alien is town, wins when there are no more cultists or zombies.


Ah, I'd forgotten that. The rules certainly don't make it clear that masonic recruitment involves win condition switching.

In this case the masonic alien would be town-with-a-penalty-point, so wouldn't actually win when we get rid of the cult and zombies. But at least they wouldn't have the alien's win condition any more, so I support this plan.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands. –Douglas Adams


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