Deathless Mafia - GAME CANCELLED!

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Lawrencelot
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Restarting...

Postby Lawrencelot » Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:33 pm UTC

@Echo: the alien has the advantage that the zombies actually help his win condition by reducing the number of humans.

Alright I will restart the game with the changes in my previous post. If there is anything important that I've overlooked please send me a pm, do not post it here because I will now start sending out new role pms.

Sending out new role pms...

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patzer
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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby patzer » Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:57 pm UTC

And we're back. :D Hi again.

Hopefully this will be more interesting than the last game..
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands. –Douglas Adams

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby patzer » Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:57 pm UTC

p.s. I propose that the restarted game be held in a new thread, to avoid confusion.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands. –Douglas Adams

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Lawrencelot
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Re: Deathless Mafia - Day 1

Postby Lawrencelot » Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:58 pm UTC

SirGabriel wrote:I'm in favor of restarting the game.

Does town win as soon as the cult and zombies are killed, even if there is an infected townie? If not, can you let Dr Ug know who he infected?

If town would win because of a lynch, I will still process all night actions. If after resolving all actions there are still no cult/zombies, town wins.
If town would win because of the night actions, then town wins.

The only other information that's not unambiguous in the rules is what happens if someone is targetted by multiple people in 1 night?

Doc overrides Zombie
Shrink overrides cult/mason
Cult and mason cancel each other
Two Zombie bites are the same as one Zombie bite.
Cop goes last.
Other actions can mix, for example you can get probed, infected and converted in the same night.

All role pms have been sent. A new Day 1 has started with the following rule changes:
1. If your win condition is changed you get 1 penalty point. When a team achieves their win condition, only the team members with the lowest number of penalty points win.
2. The Doc is not informed when infected.
3. The lynch target is not revealed, unless the Alien is lynched.

It is now Day 1. With 7 people, 4 votes are needed for a lynch. Be sure to send all of your actions before the lynch / deadline, including your backup action. Else I will choose a random action for you.

Deadline: Monday 20:00h GMT

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maident
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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby maident » Mon Oct 19, 2015 11:55 pm UTC

Alright let's start things off with a vote on the cultist of last time!
Vote: SirGabriel

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby SirGabriel » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:45 am UTC

maident wrote:Alright let's start things off with a vote on the cultist of last time!
Vote: SirGabriel

By that logic,

Vote: Dr Ug

for being a zombie last time.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby Vytron » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:56 am UTC

This is the part when we joke-vote, right?

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby patzer » Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:37 am UTC

Vytron wrote:This is the part when we joke-vote, right?


Vote: Vytron

for thinking that votes can be jokes. Votes are Serious Business.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands. –Douglas Adams

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby Dr Ug » Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:35 am UTC

OMGUS

Vote: SirGabriel


Now that I've jumped on the Gab-wagon...

So now that it looks like the game may actually get off the ground let's talk about some strategies. Problems are going to be that there will be no links d1 to try and detect, as no one has a connection to anyone else.

The new penalty point system is interesting, in that it gives an incentive for trying to get people kicked out of your faction before winning. For instance, say I'm now town and I get recruited by cult, it's in my interest to play to win as cult, but to get the cult leader lynched before hand, as otherwise I'll lose.
Where did my old signature go? :(

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby Dr Ug » Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:35 am UTC

Oh, and

Unvote

Don't want to really start a wagon there.
Where did my old signature go? :(

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maident
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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby maident » Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:42 am UTC

I think that must be a confession! :lol:
Unvote

Honestly, I agree with most everything you said, especially the part about D1 being really blind. I have a feeling N1 will be super chaotic, which might actually make it irrelevant who we lynch, save to (possibly) give them the -1 for switching teams.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby SirGabriel » Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:57 am UTC

Unvote

Actually, day 1 is an extremely important lynch. If we lynch the cultist, there is no cult for the rest of the game. If we lynch the zombie, there are no zombies for the rest of the game. I'm not sure we can do much better than lynching at random, since we don't yet have any anti-town with teammates to interact with, but then again I've seen people successfully pick out the serial killer on day 1, so maybe we will be able to do something useful.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby patzer » Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:26 am UTC

Hmm. Today's lynch would likely be pretty much random due to the lack of information to go on...
But what if we no-lynch?

If we lynch someone, chances are that we'll get rid of a town power role. Yes, we could get lucky and catch a zombie/alien/cultist, but is it worth the risk? I don't think so.

And regardless of who we lynch, the new VT won't be as trustworthy due to having a penalty point.

Unvote

Vote: No Lynch
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands. –Douglas Adams

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby SirGabriel » Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:36 am UTC

I'd rather risk losing a town power role than miss our chance to permanently eliminate an anti-town faction.

FoS patzer

Also, I think it might be a good idea, at least on day 1, for town power roles who are in danger of being lynched to claim. If there's no counter claim, then that saves the town power role; if there is a counter claim, we know one of the two is scum. Claiming on later days might be more tricky, since having started with a given power role is no guarantee of towniness.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby Vytron » Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:10 am UTC

Vote: patzer

Most of the people suggesting No Lynch on recent games I've modded or played in were scum. If people are discussing about a random lynch, of course lynching the person suggesting No Lynch is better.

I have no idea if No Lynch is mathematically sound in our situation, but in any case, this is mafia, behavior beats everything, suggesting no lynch is a scumslip, because scum on this game guarantee they'll live at night, which increases their winning chances enormously.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby patzer » Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:14 am UTC

SirGabriel wrote:I'd rather risk losing a town power role than miss our chance to permanently eliminate an anti-town faction.

If our vote is effectively random, there's a 42% chance that we'll lynch someone anti-town, and a 58% chance that we'll lynch a townie. I don't like the look of those odds, however you make a good point that if we get lucky we'll remove an entire faction..
Will have to think a bit more about this.

Also, I think it might be a good idea, at least on day 1, for town power roles who are in danger of being lynched to claim. If there's no counter claim, then that saves the town power role; if there is a counter claim, we know one of the two is scum. Claiming on later days might be more tricky, since having started with a given power role is no guarantee of towniness.


I fully agree. If it looks you're going to be lynched today, you should claim.

...actually, this reduces the chance of a mislynch, doesn't it. Whoever we target for today's lynch, we'll get a claim out of them, and probably a counterclaim from someone else. More information for us in a situation like this could be handy- and, like you said, Day 1 is the only day we can get reliable claims without having to worry about defectors.

Fair enough, you've convinced me.

Unvote
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands. –Douglas Adams

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby patzer » Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:20 am UTC

Vytron wrote:I have no idea if No Lynch is mathematically sound in our situation

suggesting no lynch is a scumslip, because scum on this game guarantee they'll live at night, which increases their winning chances enormously.

ಠ_ಠ

It seems like you're saying that you don't know if No Lynch is a mathematically good idea for us, and in the very next sentence say that No Lynch is mathematically advantageous for scum.

This seems like a contradiction; could you clarify please?
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands. –Douglas Adams

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby maident » Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:38 am UTC

FOS: Patzer

I don't think everyone would have a penalty point for becoming VT. Isn't it just for people who switch teams? We have 4/7 roles that are team 'town'; obviously we wouldn't want to lynch them but if we did, for example, lynch the cop, I don't think the subsequent VT would be untrustworthy.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby Vytron » Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:14 am UTC

patzer wrote:ಠ_ಠ

It seems like you're saying that you don't know if No Lynch is a mathematically good idea for us, and in the very next sentence say that No Lynch is mathematically advantageous for scum.

This seems like a contradiction; could you clarify please?


There's no contradiction because scum doesn't know if No Lynch and guaranteeing they live on the night is better than mislynching a townie, but they'd definitively would rather NL than risk being lynched.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby patzer » Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:13 am UTC

maident wrote:I don't think everyone would have a penalty point for becoming VT. Isn't it just for people who switch teams? We have 4/7 roles that are team 'town'; obviously we wouldn't want to lynch them but if we did, for example, lynch the cop, I don't think the subsequent VT would be untrustworthy.


*rereads rules*

Oh, you're right- you only get a penalty point if your win condition is changed. So the resulting VT if we lynch a townie would be safe to trust.
(It should be pointed out that we won't actually be told the role of whoever we lynch, so we wouldn't know for sure if said VT is safe to trust due to not knowing whether we'd lynched a townie)

So the only risk of mislynching is our power role losing their ability. That's not too bad- at least we're not losing a reliable player.

Vytron wrote:There's no contradiction because scum doesn't know if No Lynch and guaranteeing they live on the night is better than mislynching a townie, but they'd definitively would rather NL than risk being lynched.


Okay. So you're saying you think that scum would likely want a no-lynch, but we don't know what townies would want, so (ignoring possible wifom) the likelihood of someone being scum is increased if they vote NL.
That makes sense; thanks for clearing that up.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands. –Douglas Adams

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby patzer » Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:18 am UTC

Question for Vytron:

Vytron wrote:This is the part when we joke-vote, right?


Why did you decide to ask this question? As far as I know, you're a fairly experienced mafia player, and it's pretty obvious that we were in the joke-voting stage at that point. Your question wasn't suspicious, just quite odd, which is why I'm curious.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands. –Douglas Adams

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby Lawrencelot » Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:53 pm UTC

Current votes:
patzer (1): Vytron

Not voting: Dr Ug, maident, patzer, SirGabriel, G0nz0, Echo244

4 votes required to lynch

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby maident » Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:05 pm UTC

Let's get some other voices on the matter. Why so quiet, other players?
Vote: Echo244

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby Vytron » Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:02 am UTC

We've had people posting seriously in the past. I was going to post "are you seriously voting people for the role they had last game?" but I toned it down.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby patzer » Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:25 am UTC

Echo and Gonzo have not posted yet today. :(

Vote: Gonzo

Vytron wrote:We've had people posting seriously in the past. I was going to post "are you seriously voting people for the role they had last game?" but I toned it down.

Oh okay, that makes sense.

(The role someone had in the last game is a very good reason to joke-vote for them, btw :))
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands. –Douglas Adams

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby patzer » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:37 pm UTC

20 hours have passed with no posts at all? :evil:
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands. –Douglas Adams

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby Lawrencelot » Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:38 am UTC

Gonzo has never read his first or second role pm.

frogman replaces Gonzo.


Current votes:
patzer (1): Vytron
Echo244 (1): maident
frogman (1): patzer

Not voting: Dr Ug, maident, patzer, SirGabriel, frogman, Echo244

4 votes required to lynch.

Deadline: Monday October 26 20:00h GMT


Don't forget to send me your actions before the deadline or hammer vote. You can also change them at any time. Please include the current game day in your message.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby Echo244 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:54 am UTC

Apologies for my lack of participation - nausea, dizziness and light sensitivity kept me offline for a few days. Still kind of happening. At least we've got no room-spinning mechanic. ;-P

I'm with the "no-lynch is bad" crowd, and IGMEOY anyone who disagrees as it smells like wariness of penalty points.

I'll try and post more this evening.
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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby SirGabriel » Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:59 am UTC

Not sure I'll have much time to post this weekend, and I doubt we'll get much more discussion anyway, so might as well do this now:

Vote: patzer

for suggesting No Lynch.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby frogman » Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:45 pm UTC

Hey everyone!

My thought about the no-lynch thing: patzer, if scum, is doing a very good job of playing the inexperienced townie in this scenario, and I believe the ruse if this is the case. I think it's a bit suspicious that SirGabriel is voting her after she has backed down on it, but not too much - I can see how someone could read the opposite way from me here, and in any case we don't have a ton to go on.
yeah yeah yeah

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby patzer » Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:16 pm UTC

frogman wrote:patzer, if scum, is doing a very good job of playing the inexperienced townie in this scenario, and I believe the ruse if this is the case.


Well, I've actually played [http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Patzer fifteen games] of mafia before, and am not really inexperienced. Was just very bad at determining good strategy this game.. :oops:
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands. –Douglas Adams

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby frogman » Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:41 pm UTC

Now I feel like a jerk! Well, then, you probably should have known better to suggest no-lynch as a strategy against recruiting teams, so IGMEOY.
yeah yeah yeah

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby Echo244 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:40 pm UTC

OK, so, posting as promised, not a lot to go on right now, so far, so D1.

patzer's suggestion of a no lynch... I keep wanting to read it as a worry of losing a town power role. But then I read her as town last game right up until she murdered me. So, still IGMEOY, no vote, but... I dunno, I wouldn't be too sad if she got vanilla'd.

I'm new to mafia in general, not just this subforum, but I've read enough to be slightly concerned that Vytron *hasn't* done some irredeemably wild or scummy straight off the bat. No, you can't win. ;-P

Quiet probing questions from maident, fair analysis from Dr. Ug, no reads either way for either of them yet.

Welcome frogman, nothing to go on yet...

SirG... interests me. It's D1, nothing to go on, patzer's Plan No Lynch isn't much but it's the scummiest thing here. I'd be comfortable with the result but not certain enough to add my vote to the pile. I want to know what makes the difference for him.

And I probably won't know before deadline. Nyuh, never mind, I can hardly talk after being offline for a few days. ;-D
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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby patzer » Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:41 pm UTC

no worries.

Well yes, I know that no-lynch is generally a bad strategy against recruiting teams. I thought it would be a good idea here because:

We aren't told the alignment or role of the person we lynched,
if we choose to lynch today, the chances are that we'll lynch a town power role,
and regardless of who we lynch, we're left with a vanilla townie who has a penalty point and thus is a liability to the town. (I later realized that if we lynch a TPR, and they become a VT, they don't get a penalty point)

All of these are quirks unique to this game that point us towards no-lynching, which is why I initially supported that position. I was subsequently convinced otherwise by some very good arguments from the other players.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands. –Douglas Adams

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby Vytron » Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:04 pm UTC

Echo244 wrote:I'm new to mafia in general, not just this subforum, but I've read enough to be slightly concerned that Vytron *hasn't* done some irredeemably wild or scummy straight off the bat. No, you can't win. ;-P


The whole thing of voting myself when town in other games is that I'm dead and therefore not a distraction anymore, but in this game that'd not work as I'd still be around, so it makes no sense to be purposely scummy to avoid being nightkilled on the night, or something.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby maident » Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:10 am UTC

What do people think of claiming before lynches? Or claiming in general?
Especially D1, town has the most to gain and any wine should be difficult to really mix up.
I'll even go first if people agree.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby Vytron » Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:08 am UTC

Not sure. I think we would end with pairs of people counter-claiming each other. If it worked then the setup would be broken.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby Echo244 » Sat Oct 24, 2015 4:16 pm UTC

We're exploring the parameters of a new game. She says politely, as the first setup was broken by everyone being nice to each other and outing themselves, plus patzer helpfully recruiting the Alien. So it might be less broken, but have a few gaps we haven't explored yet.

I don't think we've got much time for everyone to claim, but... it means the Zombie knows exactly who to bite, or one from two at best. And Cult knows who to recruit. And the Alien can aim at probing the doctor then redirecting the doctor's power to themselves while everyone else is infected.

But it means that Town can hopefully wipe one of the enemies out, by lynching one of the double-claims. And while alliances may shift we can learn info from tracking the roles.

I dunno enough about mafia and probabilities to make a call either way, but I'm kind of talking myself into being pro-claim, I think.
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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby maident » Sat Oct 24, 2015 7:03 pm UTC

We have the Doc that can protect from Zombie and the Shrink that can protect from Cult; between them, we might be able to get a strategy for scum's counter claims and lynch from a smaller pool.
However, I agree that time is not enough for such a tactic, as D1 is almost over.

Unvote
Vote: Vytron

For caring more about the possibility of a broken setup than actually discussing.

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Re: Deathless Mafia - NEW D1!

Postby Lawrencelot » Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:30 pm UTC

Current votes:
patzer (2): Vytron, SirGabriel
frogman (1): patzer
Vytron(1): maident

Not voting (3): Dr Ug, frogman, Echo244

4 votes required to lynch.

Deadline: Monday October 26 20:00h GMT
(a bit less than 48 hours from now)

Don't forget to send me your actions before the deadline or hammer vote. You can also change them at any time. Please include the current game day in your message.


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