Trial of the Pariahs - Game Over

[Sabrar]

Trial of the Pariahs

Mod: Sabrar
Speed: Normal - Pseudo-Nightless (Night actions must be sent in advance during the day prior - backup and conditional action submissions are permitted).
Bastardry: Some

General Rules

Spoiler:

1. Do not talk about the game outside this thread (except with appropriate spoilers in the Gojoe thread, there are no spoiler reading roles).
2. DO NOT TALK ABOUT THE GAME OUTSIDE THIS THREAD.
3. Please stay on topic.
4. Don't lurk through the whole game; if you need to drop out, tell me. Really bad lurkers risk replacement or modkill. I am serious about this one!
5. If you aren't part of the game, please do not post in this thread.
6. You’re alive until you are hammered in a lynch, or the mod tells you that you're dead, by PM or in thread.
7. If you die, don't say anything for the rest of the game except a simple, "Bah, you got me," which reveals no information.
8. You may not post verbatim or quote from your role PM or any other messages sent to you by the mod. Paraphrasing is fine.
9. You may not edit your posts.
10. You may not play to lose, or act in a way that is clearly against your win condition.
11. You may not use encryption systems in order to communicate privately or circumvent these rules.
12. This is a game; it’s meant to be fun. Personal attacks or other offensive behaviour towards other players will not be tolerated.

Specific Game Rules:

Spoiler:

1. Due to the number of players each day will last a week (at least in the beginning). Deadline will be hard. Extension might be granted if I feel it's necessary.
2. You may post in thread during the day phase but not the night phase. It is night when the deadline is reached, the mod posts a day-end post or a hammer vote is cast. Note that this means you may not post content after a hammer vote or after the deadline.
3. All votes should be made by posting on a new line, IN BOLD. For example,
VOTE: Sabrar
4. You do NOT have to unvote to change votes, but it makes things easier and will be very much appreciated if you do. You can unvote in bold and on a new line, like this:
UNVOTE
VOTE: Rarbas
5. If you have questions, either post them IN BOLD in this thread, or PM me. I may not answer, but at least I can promise to never lie in any official communication about the game.
6. You may only communicate with other players by PM if I have specifically said you can do so. You must CC me in all PMs.
7. This game is nightless - see details below.
8. At the start of each day phase I will reveal the alignments of all players killed since the start of the previous day phase. Role names will be also revealed, precise role details however not.
9. If the deadline is reached and no player has been hammered, then the person with the most votes at the deadline will be lynched.
10. A tied vote at day end will result in No Lynch in all cases.
11. You can vote not to lynch anyone by casting a vote for "NL" or “No Lynch”. “No Lynch” will be treated exactly the same as any other player for determining votal results.

Nightless Setup

Spoiler:

This game is nightless - if a player or faction has any night actions, these should be submitted before the end of the day phase. All night actions are then processed as quickly as possible and the next day begins as soon as that's done. If a player fails to send in an action, they will not carry out any action that night (unless that day was exceptionally short - e.g. a majority lynch was reached within 24 hours -, in which case a brief period of grace might be allowed in which actions can be sent in). Players are therefore encouraged to send in actions early on during the day phase. To facilitate that I will allow players to send in back-up actions should events such as the lynch make their original action impossible. For example, Mafia might send in the action:
Kill: X
Back-up Kill: Y
If X is lynched or otherwise killed at the end of the day, I will treat the Mafia as having decided to kill Y that night instead.

Please confirm in the thread that you've received your role pm and read the rules. Day 1 will start after a sufficient majority of players have confirmed but latest 24 hours from now as everybody should already be aware of the intended starting date.

Players:
1. SirGabriel - lynched D2, Mafia
2. matt96 - lynched D5, Independent
3. ConMan - lynched D1, Town
4. Carlington - killed N3, Town
5. Madge
6. moody7277 - lynched D6, originally Town, turned Independent
7. adnapemit - died N5, Mafia
8. JackHK
9. Suzaku - killed N6, Town
10. dimochka - lynched D4, Mafia
11. generalz - killed N4, Town
12. jimbobmacdoodle - lynched D7, originally Town, turned Mafia

Replacements:
1. mpolo

[jimbobmacdoodle]

Confirm.

[JackHK]

Confirm.

[dimochka]

Confirm

[Suzaku]

Confirmed.

[ConMan]

Confirm.

[moody7277]

Confirming.

[matt96]

Confirm

[SirGabriel]

Confirm.

[adnapemit]

Confirm.

[Carlington]

Confirm

[Madge]

Confirm

[Sabrar]

"Order, order! I hereby open the 75th annual Hunger Games Mafia Trials. The Honorable Judge Sabrar presiding. This year's agenda: why do we need 500 roles listed, when only a dozen or so gets played every game? Who even has the time to look at every single one of them?? Seriously, has anyone even heard of a role named Cthulhu before??? And where the hell is my cappuccino????"

It was at this moment that the nurses finally caught up with the lunatic and gently lead him out to his nice padded cell. Unfortunately the damage was done and after a short discussion the popular roles decided to weed out the chaff by holding an elimination game following the process they were so used to. And there was much rejoicing...

It is now Day 1. Deadline is 6pm UTC, August 15 (a week and a bit from now).

12 players alive, 7 votes required to hammer.

[Madge]

So, let's get the ball rolling! I'm independent.

I can do some fun stuff with my role!

My win condition is completely unrelated to town or scum, so at the moment I don't care who wins.

I'm not a survivor but surviving is important to me.

[Suzaku]

Great. So this thread isn't going to show up in my egopost either That means relying on notifications. Anyone has any ideas on how to fix this please let me know.

Anyway, on with the show:
Madge opens with an indie claim and doesn't care who wins, but not a survivor. Bold move for scum, so it's likely true (but not by any means certain), and not entirely unexpected in a weird-role game.

My role definitely qualifies as interesting. It's not one I've seen before, as far as I can recall. It remains to be seen how much use I'm able to make of it. We'll see.

Vote: jimbobmacdoodle
For being the first to confirm but not the first to post after day start

[ConMan]

My role seems a little dull. It's most effective when multiple scum are still alive, and in the absence of other roles that can <REDACTED>, is likely to do nothing with depressing frequency. Worst part is, if that happens I may not even realise it.

I'm going to shut up for now, mostly because I don't have much to say yet.

[Madge]

My win condition is completely unrelated to town or scum, so at the moment I don't care who wins.

I should add at the risk of being called a liar later that I'll never care who wins, but I might care about other stuff relating to the win that means I am forced to side with one side or another to achieve my win condition.

[Carlington]

Alright, there's a bunch of stuff to get us started, comparatively speaking. (also, yay I have more than one player in a nearby time zone!)

Straight up, Madge's claim piques my interest. Town doesn't lie, so Madge is indie or scum to claim indie. If Madge is indie then she's telling the truth, and if she keeps contributing I see no reason to lynch her unless we have no good scum reads and want another night to get info without a potential mislynch. If Madge is scum, she's lying very boldly at the outset, and I don't think it seems likely. I don't want to rule it out, though. Basically, I think that we should keep Madge up our sleeve as a potential free/safe lynch, as she can't be town (unless she's lying and lynch all liars). In the same vein, taking this approach gives Madge incentive to help us hunt scum.

ConMan's sharing info about his role seems odd/unwarranted. If he's town, I think it's anti-town to volunteer information about his role and its relative power. Sure, maybe it spares him the lynch as scum look to hit more powerful roles, but we lose more powerful roles. He probably has a rationale, I guess? Still, I feel it would have been better to say nothing about his role, as I plan to do for the time being.

Suzaku's post seems fine, doesn't really attract comment. The random vote is a random vote, so whatever.

[generalz]

A bit late but: confirm!

[JackHK]

Ooooh okay, already this is more to talk about than many previous games I've been reading...

Agree with Carlington/Suzaku on their analyses of Madge, i.e. likely telling the truth, useful as "guaranteed" non-town, but probably shouldn't lynch unless we don't have anyone more scummy-looking.

Suzaku and Carlington not saying much/anything about their roles - I reckon that's probably the best idea, at least for the moment. Perhaps ConMan revealed information on their role simply because Madge did, but whether it was innocently meant or not, I think it was probably too soon to do so.

Are we going to do random votes?

[SirGabriel]

I agree that Madge is probably telling the truth, although I have no clue what her role might be.

Given that this is an unusual role mafia, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if there's a lie detecting role, so here goes:
I am town. I am not mafia. I am not scum. I am not independent. I am not cult.

If there's anything else I should add to that list, let me know. I think everyone should post a similar list just in case.

Also,

Vote JackHK

for not placing a random vote.

[adnapemit]

That Madge claimed to be an independent so quickly is worrying me. I'm worried that she could be a jester trying to get lynched or a really dangerous role that will kill everyone or maybe scum or some sort of cult...but most likely something I haven't considered and something unpredictable.

I should add at the risk of being called a liar later that I'll never care who wins, but I might care about other stuff relating to the win that means I am forced to side with one side or another to achieve my win condition.

This addition is to her claim makes me think she is telling the truth about being an independent rather than scum.(Unless she picked a role from the list Sabrar linked to as a cover for herself).

For possible lie detector:
I am town. I am not mafia. I am not scum. I am not independent. I am not cult.

Vote: generalz
for being the last to confirm.

[jimbobmacdoodle]

I am town. I am not mafia. I am not scum. I am not independent. I am not cult.

Right, that gets that out of the way. I see no reason not to do it. Next thing: my ability means that I am unlikely to have a vote down at the end of the day, at least for the first day or two, unless I am having to protect myself, or need to break a tie. I see no reason to say anything else about my role for now (and I agree with what others said re. being cautious about how much to reveal about their roles at the moment).

Sabrar mentioned that there will be some bastardry, so here's my wild speculation of the sort of things I do and don't expect:

Would not be surprised if they are present:
Investigative role who doesn't know that they are not sane (including for example insane cop, cop who gets fake result under certain circumstances etc).
Cult or other similar win condition changing roles.
Roles with hidden mechanics (e.g. action fails if target is targeted by another).

Unlikely but possible:
Fake flips (e.g. death millers)
Investigators with completely random results

Would be very surprised if present:
People with hidden or false win conditions
Any role that requires direct mod intervention (e.g. mod arbitrarily declaring that X wins or similar)
Any role that requires interactions with people outside the 12 players (including the mod, e.g. no militant atheist)

Overall, I doubt that the bastardry will make much difference to the game, with the possible exception of a cult, but there's not much we can do about it at this stage, other than look suspiciously at Madge for her early "don't bother killing me" statement. I agree with what others have said that Madge is almost certainly not Town, and is probably independent, but a scum/anti-town independent role with a need to stay alive until the late game is far from out of the question.

Vote adnapemit

for ninja-voting generalz ahead of me.

[generalz]

Good idea about the lie detector:
I am town. I am not mafia. I am not scum. I am not independent. I am not cult.

I don't have much to say for the moment...

Vote: jimbobmacdoodle
To complete the circle

[moody7277]

My ideas on weird stuff that could happen:

Vote changing mechanics (adding partial vote to someone, tying vote to someone else)
Rotating sanity cop (take a pill each night, maybe it's your lithium, maybe it's a tictac)
Cult, but not vanilla cult (i.e. weird recruiting mechanics)
Jester, maybe not vanilla

I feel safe ignoring Madge for now unless, although her statements look like she isn't going to be scum-hunting very hard.

For a (more likely than usual) lie detector:

I am town. I am not scum. I am not cult.

[dimochka]

I am town. I am not mafia. I am not scum. I am not independent. I am not cult.

vote moody

for being some kind of independent/mafia, because he didn't mention those in his lie detector thing. obviously.

I'm going to ignore madge for now, although i wouldn't be too shocked to see her as some kind of SK with maybe protection under certain conditions. i think it's logical to say that cops should not be targeting her. and for my own notes, IGMEOY.

Setup thoughts: we have 12 people, which means that I would expect about 4-5 people who aren't strictly town (more likely 4 than 5; the latter seems a bit high... i guess 3 is possible too, but seems too low). we should probably watch out for cult, but not let that derail conversation.

On that note - If anyone has some kind of information about the likelihood of a cult NOT existing, that would probably be helpful to reveal. If you're a de-culter, then you should keep that to yourself. For what it's worth, my role reveals nothing about cults. Also my role is definitely uncommon but not incredibly rare. Don't see a reason to reveal more.

Re: moody's suggestions for weird stuff: I had a tie breaking role in the scooby game i modded, so definitely possible there. the cop is possible too, or some odd/even night sanity. cult already mentioned. jester - i don't really get how a non-vanilla jester would work (?)
But overall agree that those are possible.

[SirGabriel]

jester - i don't really get how a non-vanilla jester would work (?)

Could be a pseudojester (needs to be lynched and then fulfill a new win condition they receive upon being lynched) or hesitant jester (needs to be lynched some time after day 1). Still, given that I've seen both of those roles in recent games and the point of this game seems to be testing out rarely seen roles, I doubt there's any kind of jester. I would expect there to be some kind of investigative role (but not an ordinary sane cop), and possibly also some kind of protective role (but not an ordinary doctor) and/or some kind of roleblocker (but not a standard roleblocker or jailer).

[JackHK]

Am travelling right now so will be brief, and will try and post more later.

First, Vote: matt96 for being the first player I saw with no votes on them yet.

Regarding lie detectors, I am town. I am not mafia. I am not scum. I am not independent. I am not cult.

moody, would you be willing to explain why you didn't include your being an independent in your statement?

As for my own role, I think that all I should say is that I have 2 powers, each of which can only be used once during the game.

See y'all in a bit!

[moody7277]

moody, would you be willing to explain why you didn't include your being an independent in your statement?

a. I figured that town + (not scum + not cult) was complimentary enough that it covered all bases without being redundant. Getting truthful back on even a simple "I am town" statement ought to be enough for purposes.
b. I decided to use my own words for that instead of copy-paste for personal reasons. Your experience may be that such a statement ought to be copy-pasted. The only game I've been in where a lie detector has actually been used, the simpler statement above was what everyone was saying.

Vote: ConMan

for having a boring role.

[JackHK]

a. I figured that town + (not scum + not cult) was complimentary enough that it covered all bases without being redundant. Getting truthful back on even a simple "I am town" statement ought to be enough for purposes.
b. I decided to use my own words for that instead of copy-paste for personal reasons. Your experience may be that such a statement ought to be copy-pasted. The only game I've been in where a lie detector has actually been used, the simpler statement above was what everyone was saying.

Hmmm. I'm not sure I buy that reasoning.
A) Even if the other games you've played used a different "oath", is it not better to be consistent between players?
B) It seems odd you wouldn't just say "I am not independent" after two people called you out on it.

Anyway, I don't have much experience mafiaing, how do lie detector roles usually go? They pick a statement and Mod tells them whether or not it was truthful?

[ConMan]

Lie detector? Eh. I'm not a fan. But sure.

I am town. I am not scum. I am not independent. I am not cult.

As for the scumminess or otherwise of me revealing details about my ability, I tend to do it because it provides *some* information, even if it's vague, and D1 without information is incredibly dull. And since my ability has limited use, I may as well point out when it might be useful, just so there aren't as many assumptions about what might be possible once we get into endgame.

I am tentatively fine with Madge's claim - it's typically not in scum's interest to stand out so early, but I guess there's always a SK-type role to worry about. Still, for now I will be looking elsewhere for the scum.

[Madge]

So, nobody else is claiming independent?? How dull.

I want to take a moment to address scum, if that's OK.

Scum, cults, SKs who may be reading this: don't worry, I can't do anything to screw with you. I can't kill you, I can't block you. I can't decult, protect, or anything else that might be concerning to scum.

You know I'm a bad scumhunter so I'll not be a problem for you, especially because I'm not scumhunting for the foreseeable future, anyway.

I know none of you will respond to this, but I want to make sure you know this. Hopefully you want to kill/recruit genuine town instead of me and you'll let me continue to live.

Back on the subject of living: I definitely want to live, at least to D3 (surviving this long isn't related to my win condition though). If town or scum wants to kill me, I don't care how it is done (lynch or NK, all good).

I'd appreciate a day's notice before I'm killed by town (i.e. "let's lynch Jim today, and if nothing happens to change our mind we'll get rid of Madge tomorrow" or "As the vig I will shoot Madge tonight"). It'll help me out.

[jimbobmacdoodle]

I'll be honest, I have no idea what Madge is on about. I wonder if she's some kind of jester that has to predict the time ofher own death or something?

I think a second indie is fairly likely, but I expect they won't stand up and shout at this stage, although we're still waiting on one or two players to contribute. I doubt they'd be a regular survivor or serial killer though.

I'm expecting at least one vote manipulation role, but not a simple double voter or tie breaker. I had a double vote recently, and I think Sabrar would have adopted a different policy to tied votals if there were somebody who broke ties.

I wouldn't be surprised by some sort of day action(s) either, but it's hardly conclusive. I.expect to see plenty of abilities that are mash-ups of standard roles (e.g. Vig, but only for someone who ended with their vote on you, else roleblocker). I think if there are any abilities that are based on game circumstances that they'll be along the lines of after Day X, or when somebody has voted someone, and not e.g. when somebody says a specific word.

Given the pseudo nightless nature of the game, scum presumably has day chat. I also expect there to be one or more other chat abilities, but as always, unless it says so in your role PM, don't assume you're partner is Town.

Reactons to others will come later, hopefully so that people have some posts. Regarding moody's lack of not claiming independent, I'm not bothered by it. If they are not Town, then a lie detector will pick up that part of it.

[SirGabriel]

Madge's claim is confusing me. Based on Sabrar's day-opening post, as well as the link in my role PM, I'm assuming everyone's roles are on the mafia universe site, but there are only 46 roles on that site listed as third party, and I can't find any that are consistent with everything she has claimed. If I had to guess, I'd say either she's a serial killer who is trying to mislead us, or she has to predict the winner and loses if she predicts wrong or dies before making a prediction.

[Suzaku]

I suppose it's not impossible there's a lie detector out there, so:
I am town.
I am a member of the town.
I am not scum.
I am not a member of the Mafia.
I am not anti-town.
I am not independent.
I am not in, or the leader of, a cult.
I did not kill Elvis.

That should cover any weird restrictions on statements that can be checked, although I'm not sure that Sabrar is going for 'off-the-wall' or simply 'rarely seen' for his roles in this game. If I had to guess, any lie detector we may have will likely be able to check any one statement of any one player per day, possibly publicly.

In other news:
Unvote.
Vote: Madge
Serious vote.

I don't believe at this time that Madge is scum, but anyone who out-and-out states, "I'm not scumhunting for the foreseeable future," is a superior target than any random player I've yet to develop a read on.

So far, reading as posts have gone up and not in any great depth, nothing else has stood out to me.

I will be going back and rereading everything, and I should have some broader thoughts about more players in an hour or so.

[moody7277]

Madge's first post looked fairly tame, basically saying "I don't give a rat's ass about any of you." She even says in her latest missive that she even won't use her mediocre scum-hunting skills. I also found a bit of what I think is an inconsistency in her claims:

I can do some fun stuff with my role!

Scum, cults, SKs who may be reading this: don't worry, I can't do anything to screw with you. I can't kill you, I can't block you. I can't decult, protect, or anything else that might be concerning to scum.

Doesn't sound to me that there's much left that one could consider "fun". I figure that if we've gotten some kind of scum on D1, a vig should consider taking her out. Lynching her might not be the best option considering possibility of jester.

My opinion of possible setup, given everyone has powers, is 7/3/1(cult)/1(Madge). Strong town implies a bigger mafia is possible, although with these being weird roles they may not support that many baddies so 8/2/1(cult)/1(Madge). 7/2/1(SK)/1(cult)/1(Madge) seems like a lot of killing for a 12-person game.

[Suzaku]

Hmmm.

SNR isn't great, but I've seen worse also.

Lot's of setup spec, which is not surprising at all. Might as well add a bit:
With 12 players and no vanilla roles (Am I assuming here? I could have sworn I'd read that somewhere?) I'd expect something like 9-2-1, 8-3-1, 8-2-2, 7-3-2 ish. Particularly depending whether the indies are true independents (e.g. survivor) who can win win either scum or town, or pseudo independents (e.g. SK), who can only win alone and are (from an analytics POV) more correctly thought of as a faction of one. I'd be very surprised with no indies, and a little surprised at only one, so I suspect there's one more out there in addition to Madge, although that's 100% gut feeling.

Given the premiss of the game, I don't really think that role spec is going to be very productive, and I'm not going to indulge. The only thing I will say is that my role matches the link I was sent in my role PM very closely, so I don't think that Sabrar has been deliberately twisting roles to make them more unusual. So we're more likely to have rare-but-known variants of roles than weird made-up shit.

On other players:
dimochka, in the first instance, and JackHK look a little shady for the attack on moody. If I were a lie detector, I would check on 'I am town' before anything else unless some restriction prevented it, and a "True" result on that renders every other variation redundant.

Conman's posting of (very minor) role details doesn't seem particularly off to me. It was a fairly neutral opening post.

Nothing else I feel needs commenting on at this point, so I'll go back to the Judo (OT: anyone fancy some kind of Olympic Mafia? Maybe the roles could be sports and the Mafia is non-Olympic sports trying to ruin the games. If anyone thinks this is a good idea, I could be convinced to mod it)

Likely be awake and on phone for another hour or two, if there are any direct questions for me.

Ninja: Good catch, moody.

[Carlington]

This post will be pretty stream of consciousness, I'm just going to write things down as I notice them/as they hit me. Here goes.

@Suzaku:

Basically, I think that we should keep Madge up our sleeve as a potential free/safe lynch, as she can't be town (unless she's lying and lynch all liars). In the same vein, taking this approach gives Madge incentive to help us hunt scum.

Seems you disagree. Why?

I am town. I am not scum. I am not independent. I am not cult.

I'm not worried about moody not specifically saying he's not indie really. Like he said, check "I am town" and if that comes back false ratchet up the pressure.

@SirG, nearly everything you've said has had to do with Madge. Any other thoughts yet?

@JackHK, I feel like you're jumping at shadows with moody.

@generalz, really nothing to say whatsoever?

jimbob and dimochka, some decent set-up spec, but I do question the utility of speculating about roles in a game with deliberately unusual roles.

Ninja'd by both moody and Suzaku. Some of what I said has thus been covered already. Good point moody, that's interesting, although I can think of reasons Madge might have said that.

[Carlington]

Oh, what's SNR?

[SirGabriel]

@SirG, nearly everything you've said has had to do with Madge. Any other thoughts yet?

Nothing else stuck out at first glance. I'll see if I can find time to do a reread later today.