Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 5 (The King is Dead!)

Postby plytho » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:19 pm UTC

adnapemit wrote:If the player doesn't use an ability redirecting doesn't work.
That's true but if jimbob doesn't declare whether he targets you or LaserGuy you have to use your strongman to make sure you don't kill each other. Or are you saying you and LaserGuy don't intend to do anyting tonight?
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 5 (The King is Dead!)

Postby freezeblade » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:13 pm UTC

Unoffical Votals:
freezeblade - 2 (LaserGuy, adnapemit)
adnapemit - 3 (freezeblade, plytho, bessie)

6 alive, 4 to lynch

Due to the wording of how the mod answered my previous question about order of action involving redirection and PGO, it is clear to me that jimbob's action is not a "targeting" action, so it would be unaffected by a strongman. The strongman would be applied to whoever jimbob redirects the strongman to.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 5 (The King is Dead!)

Postby bessie » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:59 pm UTC

@jimbob – Ok, I’ll recheck that.

adnapemit wrote:I don't think bessie is recruitable by jimbob. But it would be worth trying. You should target each other tonight just to be sure. :wink:
Thanks for the helpful advice! :)

adnapemit wrote:How exactly do you suggest that he makes us use the strongman kill?
Hmm, I don’t know. What are your suggestions?

adnapemit wrote:There wasn't a lot from my perspective to suggest you were recruitable. Sabrar and LaserGuy were more the ones who thought that. But if you were I thought you would make a good recruit .(A townie player would be much better than the more likely recruitable Znirk who was already close to being lynched)
No still not buying this. LaserGuy hadn’t given me a good reason as to why on N1 he thought I was recruitable. But he’s trying hard to push it now, because he wants jimbob to target me tonight and try to recruit me. Who did you really try to recruit on N1?

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 5 (The King is Dead!)

Postby freezeblade » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:46 pm UTC

Jimbob, Hear me out here, this can end tonight.

I have confirmation from the mod that even if a theoretical strong man kill is re-directed to me (as a PGO), they would still die. So with the following set of actions (we lynch adnapemit, you re-direct LaserGuy's actions to me) here's what happens:

Scenario 1 (LaserGuy has a strongman, uses it): Kill is redirected to me, both LaserGuy and I die. Result: Town Wins, You Win.

Scenario 2 (LaserGuy does not have a strongman or does not use it, attempts to use a night kill): Kill is redirected to me, LaserGuy Dies. Result: Town Wins, You Win.

Scenario 3 (LaserGuy does not attempt to use night kill): Nobody dies in the night. D6 starts, spread is now 3-1-1, we lynch LaserGuy D6. Result: Town Wins, You Win.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 5 (The King is Dead!)

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:50 pm UTC

bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:This is ignoring the fact that, based on what you're saying about your respective role PMs, jimbob can just recruit you tonight and take you away from the townie side.

LaserGuy wrote:It's not a secondary win condition. You're recruitable by jimbob. But I'm sure you already knew that.


This is news to me. What makes you think jimbob has a recruiting power? A guess you might know this if adnapemit is a role cop. More likely you are trying to create a distraction, and trying hard because you brought it up in two separate places in your post.


Er, he already recruited Znirk. It's clear from the flavor text of Znirk's death that it was on jimbob's end. The fact that you both have lines in your role PMs text pointing to each other makes it fairly clear what is going on. Makes much more sense than a weird extra win condition. I don't know how else to interpret your comment that you plan on "leaving town" with jimbob.

bessie wrote:No still not buying this. LaserGuy hadn’t given me a good reason as to why on N1 he thought I was recruitable. But he’s trying hard to push it now, because he wants jimbob to target me tonight and try to recruit me. Who did you really try to recruit on N1?


We tried to recruit you. In the former case, it's because we thought you were telegraphing a hint that you were a potential recruit for us. We didn't have much go off of on N1, and you were a more useful target for a kill than our alternate choice, Znirk. The reason we tried to do so is independent of the reason I think that jimbob can recruit you now. In the latter case, it's because of the mutual claims that you've both made about your role PMs and the comments that you've made about them since. I don't think either of you have a hidden demon aspect.

bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:What good would Sabrar's ninja power be if he had been town? If you're wondering what Adria's power is supposed to be, presumably that's because you realize that her power was changed when her alignment was assigned as scum. Which is exactly what I told you.


Yes, I’m trying to figure out what Adria’s power would have been, had she not been possessed by Lazarus, and if it is something that would have a reasonable correlation with a ninja.

And LaserGuy, why are you still denying this, the same thing you have been denying since D3?


Because I know what powers we actually have. Explain to me, based on what dimochka has said, how it makes sense that Sabrar was a ninja. For that matter, how is Madge a miller? What would have happened had she rolled scum in this setup? What good would a scum miller be?

Could it be because you want to keep steering the discussion away from discussing whether or not you currently have, or have ever had, a strongman?


Yup, I clearly had planned since D3 that scum would need to do a mass claim and that the claim would hinge around whether or not we had a strongman power, and was willing to go against a plain reading of the mod text to make the point. You give me too much credit.

Updated list of night actions. Fishy claims in italics.
Gopher of Pern – bulletproof


When was this claimed?

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@Scum - I can only give me word that I won't try to redirect one of you tonight, if I side with you (I haven't made my mind up yet). You should probably consider whether to use your strongman, in case I change my mind.


We understand that. We've accepted that as a potential risk with our plan.

freezeblade wrote:Scenario 1 (LaserGuy has a strongman, uses it): Kill is redirected to me, both LaserGuy and I die. Result: Town Wins, You Win.


That's because you've purposely ignored the scenario that we're actually discussing:

Scenario 4: You don't lynch the strongman. The strongman kill cannot be redirected, so it kills jimbob. Town lynches the final scum the next day. Town wins, jimbob + scum lose.

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 5 (The King is Dead!)

Postby freezeblade » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:That's because you've purposely ignored the scenario that we're actually discussing:

Scenario 4: You don't lynch the strongman. The strongman kill cannot be redirected, so it kills jimbob. Town lynches the final scum the next day. Town wins, jimbob + scum lose.


Except that's not how it happens, and Jimbob can ask the mod how the mechanics of his re-direct works. However, I have mod confirmation that a strongman can, and will, be re-directed, and you are either assuming (wrong) or you are lying, to try to convince Jimbob to do something against his interests.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 5 (The King is Dead!)

Postby plytho » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:03 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Updated list of night actions. Fishy claims in italics.
Gopher of Pern – bulletproof


When was this claimed?


In his role pm: Immune to all actions N1 followed by universal backup D2. The way it's written these don't seem optional.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 5 (The King is Dead!)

Postby plytho » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:11 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:That's because you've purposely ignored the scenario that we're actually discussing:

Scenario 4: You don't lynch the strongman. The strongman kill cannot be redirected, so it kills jimbob. Town lynches the final scum the next day. Town wins, jimbob + scum lose.


Except that's not how it happens, and Jimbob can ask the mod how the mechanics of his re-direct works. However, I have mod confirmation that a strongman can, and will, be re-directed, and you are either assuming (wrong) or you are lying, to try to convince Jimbob to do something against his interests.


Reading the strongman explanation on the mafiascum wiki it seems very plausible that redirector would still work. The wiki states that kills from a strongman can not be blocked by any means, but redirecting isn't blocking.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 5 (The King is Dead!)

Postby bessie » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:27 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Er, he already recruited Znirk. It's clear from the flavor text of Znirk's death that it was on jimbob's end. The fact that you both have lines in your role PMs text pointing to each other makes it fairly clear what is going on. Makes much more sense than a weird extra win condition. I don't know how else to interpret your comment that you plan on "leaving town" with jimbob.
Oh, ok. I didn’t remember where jimbob confirmed that Znirk was an actual recruit and not a chance meeting. Or maybe I didn’t remember because it didn’t happen.

You and adnapemit really really really want jimbob and me to target each other tonight. I wonder why?

LaserGuy wrote:We tried to recruit you. In the former case, it's because we thought you were telegraphing a hint that you were a potential recruit for us.
This is what I’m not seeing. Did you read through the first spoiler in this post? If anyone was telegraphing that they were recruitable, it was ahippo.

LaserGuy wrote:Because I know what powers we actually have. Explain to me, based on what dimochka has said, how it makes sense that Sabrar was a ninja. For that matter, how is Madge a miller? What would have happened had she rolled scum in this setup? What good would a scum miller be?
I’m wondering if Adria was originally a rolestopper. I’m still trying to work it out. It would be easier if you would tell me your and adnapemit’s powers. :D Miller possibly went with the random alignment, not the original role. And the miller result would depend on the mod’s interpretation of the role. A miller might give a result of “not town” , not “mafia”, which is a big difference. Or the mod could just modify the role to godfather.

LaserGuy wrote:Yup, I clearly had planned since D3 that scum would need to do a mass claim and that the claim would hinge around whether or not we had a strongman power, and was willing to go against a plain reading of the mod text to make the point. You give me too much credit.
I’m not saying you have been planning for this particular outcome since D3, I am only saying that you have been misrepresenting the setup in general since D3.

LaserGuy wrote:
Updated list of night actions. Fishy claims in italics.
Gopher of Pern – bulletproof


When was this claimed?
I saw that after I posted it. It should have been commuter. Interesting you picked up on that particular mistake.

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 5 (The King is Dead!)

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:51 am UTC

bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Er, he already recruited Znirk. It's clear from the flavor text of Znirk's death that it was on jimbob's end. The fact that you both have lines in your role PMs text pointing to each other makes it fairly clear what is going on. Makes much more sense than a weird extra win condition. I don't know how else to interpret your comment that you plan on "leaving town" with jimbob.


Oh, ok. I didn’t remember where jimbob confirmed that Znirk was an actual recruit and not a chance meeting. Or maybe I didn’t remember because it didn’t happen.


Are you saying that you don't think jimbob recruited Znirk? I'm not sure what you mean here. They're in a faction together--Znirk still wins if jimbob finishes the game alive--and were not originally. That's recruitment, as far as I'm concerned. Is there another term I'm supposed to be using for induced faction changes by a hidden mechanic?

You and adnapemit really really really want jimbob and me to target each other tonight. I wonder why?


I don't think I've explicitly asked anything of you, and wouldn't expect you to follow any advice I give. Based on the experience with Znirk, if you are recruitable, I suspect it doesn't matter who initiates. Assuming that jimbob is supporting us, I do think this would be a useful thing for him to try. If he can recruit you, as I think is plausible, then it puts us a dominating position on D6.

bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:We tried to recruit you. In the former case, it's because we thought you were telegraphing a hint that you were a potential recruit for us.


This is what I’m not seeing. Did you read through the first spoiler in this post? If anyone was telegraphing that they were recruitable, it was ahippo.


You'll have to ask Sabrar after the game is done. He said that your setup spec "pinged him very strongly" as a potential for recruit. I'm new and am not very good at this game, so what do I know :D? Aside from Znirk, it was the best lead that we had to go on, and nobody wanted to target Znirk. In any case, you're a very strong, analytical player with an extremely townie meta. Honestly, I'm surprised you aren't a priority target every game. You weren't suspicious of any of us particularly, so it wouldn't attract unwanted attention to us. We had nothing to lose by targeting you. I think the only other consideration for a kill that night was mpolo as a non-recruiting kill for similar reasons minus the recruiting possibility. That would have ended very badly for us, it seems.

bessie wrote:I’m wondering if Adria was originally a rolestopper. I’m still trying to work it out. It would be easier if you would tell me your and adnapemit’s powers. :D


One of us is a strongman. I imagine you can probably guess the third.

bessie wrote:I saw that after I posted it. It should have been commuter. Interesting you picked up on that particular mistake.


Was there another mistake I missed? I wouldn't have claimed bulletproof if another player already had it.

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 5 (The King is Dead!)

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:55 am UTC

That's probably the last you'll hear from me until the end of day. The game is in your hands, jimbob.

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 5 (The King is Dead!)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:05 am UTC

Vote freezeblade

This is a placeholder vote until I get mod confirmation about my role versus strongman.

Assuming I don't get confirmation about it redirecting strongman kills, I'm going to leave my vote where it is, for my own safety. If I can redirect strongman kills, I'll switch sides.

Thinking about it, the third scum ability is probably godfather, though why they don't say as much, I have no idea.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 5 (The King is Dead!)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:43 pm UTC

Unvote

dimochka just confirmed to me that redirection trumps strongman. I should really learn to not assume anything about abilities. I now believe that even if we get the lynch wrong, I can redirect the other.

Note that I am deliberately not hammering. Scum have a little under an hour, based on dimochka's comment in my message (or 15 minutes if you only trust deadline) to try to give me another reason to support them.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 5 (The King is Dead!)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:48 pm UTC

@LaserGuy - if you have some way of stopping my redirect, please demonstrate it tonight, without killing me, and I will switch to supporting you tomorrow.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Night 5 (What just happened?)

Postby dimochka » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:39 pm UTC

As the King's bones were covered up once again and the townspeople felt safer once again, suddenly two of them separated from the group.
"We are servants of Diablo, and you shall die or serve our master," they proclaimed.
"We will never lay down our weapons! And in fact, we outnumber you," answered one of the others.

Meanwhile Wirt was watching this whole scene from the sidelines.
"Mr. Demon, "he said, "if I help you get rid of these abhorrent individuals, would you allow me to make my way far from here unharmed?"
"We could... make some special considerations," replied the other.
"See... that's not quite enough for me. I need an assurance. I guess I'll just stand by and see what happens. If you change your mind, let me know!"

Much deliberation, shouting, and threats later, the sun was moments from setting. And it was at this point that one of the demons started casting a fireball, but didn't get to finish it as the others drew out their guns and shot at him. And just as he hit the ground, he shouted, "help, it wasn't me!"

The demon fell, and darkness did too - more than should have naturally from the sun disappearing behind the horizon. Everyone slowly and carefully backed away in different directions, hoping to survive this night and praying that the demon is indeed dead. But it was clear to everyone that the threat was far from over.


Final D5 Votals:
Freezeblade - 2 (adnapemit, laserguy)
Adnapemit - 3 (freezeblade, plytho, bessie)

Not Voting: jimbobmacdoodle

Adnapemit has been lynched. Alignment and role will be revealed at the start of the following day.

It is now night. Please send me all night actions by N5 deadline [Click here!] in 2 days. If you have the ability to communicate at night, you may begin to do so now; please do not send any further messages once deadline has been reached, even if I have not declared the start of the following day.

If everyone can send me night actions early and those with night chat agree to end night, I will start the following day earlier.
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Re: Diablo Mafia (The End)

Postby dimochka » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:13 am UTC

There was nothing that felt safe about this night, especially not when the demons - or whoever they were - revealed themselves. And the person who felt least safe was Wirt. He had shown his willingness to switch sides, and therefore was worried that the demons and the humans were after him. And so he headed to the tavern, which has clearly not been frequented in days. Wirt hobbled over the bar, grabbed a bottle of scotch, and took the table farthest from the entrance facing the door. If this was his night, he would at least see his killer.

He did not have to wait long for company. In barged the Barbarian, clearly beside himself. But something felt off. And as Wirt looked in his eyes, the horrible realization came to light. This was that same butcher that kidnapped him, along with the other kids, and thanks to whom he now had a peg for his leg! For the first time in months, Wirt was utterly speechless.

The creature quickly noticed Wirt and covered the distance from the door to his table in five large strides.
"I remember you, you were one of my lucky guests!" Announced the Butcher, grinning evilly. "You had your chance today, and now my lord is trapped once again. Is there anything you'd like to say before I end your existence, like I should have done back in my furnace?"
Wirt, still trembling, tried to think quickly, but nothing came to mind. "Well," he thought, "maybe I can at least try to survive for one more day. This one doesn't seem very bright."

"There is one among us who frightens me more than even you," stated Wirt. "He is human but he seems to... know things. I am not your threat, but he is likely the only person able to threaten your dominion over this town. Killing me will get you nowhere; I have already made it clear to everyone that I am not on anyone's side. But get rid of him and I will help you tomorrow. And if I do not, I have no doubt that you would crush me with without any problems."
"And who might this threat be," smirked the Butcher?
"The Monk. He has powers I've never seen before. Take him out and I'll do what you say."
"Ha, you have just signed his death warrant. Stay right here; I'll be back shortly with his head," proclaimed the creature, as it turned around and stormed out of the bar."

Wirt realized that he has been holding his breath for several minutes and finally breathed. His options did not look good. Leaving town this late would be suicide. Going to someone else in town was not much safer. The logical option,against all odds, was to stay. And so he poured himself another and took a large sip.

-----

The Monk was well-prepared. Tonight he saw the face of evil, and tonight he was going to defeat it. His room on the second floor looked just like any other room, but there were weapons and traps camouflaged throughout. He hoped that the demons would come; if they do not, he would have to take everything apart lest he hurt one of his fellow humans in the process. And so he waited.

An hour later, a snapped wire warned him of the incoming danger. Yet even with his well laid traps, the demon nearly trampled him as he rushed straight through the door. The traps, thankfully, were not for naught. The demon was already visibly bleeding, though also thoroughly enraged. With the huge cleaver held in hand, the demon managed to cut off his restraints and rushed at the Monk.

This was the battle the Monk trained for his entire life. And even then, he nearly underestimated the creature's strength and ferocity. The battle seemed to last nearly an hour (though internally the Monk was aware that mere minutes had passed). Finally, however, the poisoned darts from the traps seemed to take effect and the creature collapsed on the floor, though still breathing heavily.

"You will not win. Where I fall others will rise. The lords will have a special place for you when they return. Baal and Mephisto will personally ensure your eternal suffering," spit out the creature.
"Maybe so, but I will be prepared. And if it's my time, then so it will be. But today is not that day."

And with those words, the Monk drove his staff through the Butcher's left eye, and the creature was no more.

-----

Gillian woke up with a silent scream. "How long has she been sleeping? And how is she still alive? And heavens, why it is so light outside?" All those thoughts ran through her head at once.
The view from her room was a strange sight. The northern-facing windows clearly proved that it was still the middle of the night. Yet the eastern window was lit as if a piece of the sun itself landed in Tristram. Gillian made her way down to the entrance of the tavern and immediately stopped in her tracks. An angelic looking creature stood by the fountain, looking straight at her. The creature beckoned her closer and Gillian began walking without thinking. It was only when she made it to the fountain that she realized that several others were already there. The Monk stood leaning against the fountain, looking as if he just got out of a fight. The bard was sitting nearby, his lute in his hands. And Wirt stood off to the side, clearly not trusting anyone.

Once Gillian made her way to the fountain, the creature spoke.
"I am Tyrael, the Archangel of Justice. For years, we've been fighting the war against the demons, and we were unable to defeat it. It was prophesied that the humans will decide who will be victorious. Thankfully, tonight you chose the side of the light. We shall never forget this, humans. But the fight is far from over. Tristram is safe for the time being, but we need your help, as Mephisto has just escaped and is terrorizing Kurast. I am headed there now, and hope to rely on your help there too. For now, farewell and may our paths cross again."

And with this the creature disappeared, just in time for the first rays of light to appear past the horizon.

"Well I think this is as good a time as any for me to leave this wretched place," announced Wirt. "I wish you all the best of luck." And with that, the boy hobbled back towards his cabin, surely to pack his belongings.

"Thankfully this is over. What do you two plan to do now?" asked Gillian?
"I will make my way over to the Sanctuary. It is safer, and they may need my help," answered the Monk.
"Care for some company? I could help lift the spirits on this long journey," suggested the Bard.
"Company is always welcome, as is any assistance," replied the Monk.
"Well, since we have some time, why don't you join me for some breakfast and we can all make sense of our plans outside of this wretched place, recommended Gillian. This was, after all, her chance for a new beginning.

-----

Baal's sudden roar shook the northern lands. "They think they've destroyed us, but our brother cannot be killed. Once I rescue him, the world will know our wrath," he proclaimed, looking over his army of minions. "The real battle begins now!"


-----

Congratulations to town: Gopher of Pern, freezeblade, ahippo/SirGabriel, plytho, SirGabriel, Madge, JustDanceForever, mpolo/SDK, and bessie on the win!
And congratulations to the survivors: jimbobmacdoodle and Znirk!

All suggestions / criticism are welcome. I'm going to clean up the google doc and update this post tomorrow with the link. It will provide all roles, special conditions, and night actions. I'll also include the role PMs in there. If you have any other requests or questions (such as regarding the setup), ask away. And thanks everyone for bearing with me! I think I made this setup more complicated than I originally realized...
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:22 am UTC

*Phew* That was a tense finish. Scum came *this* close to persuading me, and it was only freezeblade getting information that I really should have sought myself that made the difference, but even then I wasn't sure whether I'd missed something and was signing my own death warrant. The way dimochka worded the flavour had me very nervous as well, to start with!

I'm looking forward now to seeing what exactly actually happened and what people's abilities really were.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:29 am UTC

Congrats to Town and the Survivors!

@jimbob: why did you decide to side with them? You would have had 100% chance to win with scum. We cannot afford to kill you N5, cannot lynch you D6 and N6 theoretically should not have happened with scum being 50% of alive players.

We had 1-shot Ninja, 1-shot Strongman, Godfather. Nothing else. Strongman was used N2 by LaserGuy to kill SirGabriel/ahippo (I thought blacksmith having armor (i.e. Bulletproof) would make sense).

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:37 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:@jimbob: why did you decide to side with them? You would have had 100% chance to win with scum. We cannot afford to kill you N5, cannot lynch you D6 and N6 theoretically should not have happened with scum being 50% of alive players.

We had 1-shot Ninja, 1-shot Strongman, Godfather. Nothing else. Strongman was used N2 by LaserGuy to kill SirGabriel/ahippo (I thought blacksmith having armor (i.e. Bulletproof) would make sense).
As I said in thread earlier, I didn't trust that LaserGuy and adnapemit were fully telling the truth, so I didn't know for certain that things would flow as intended, even though dimochka had said to me that in the simple case of me and a Strongman, plus one other scum and town, the day would end at the end of D6. An example that could have gone wrong for me was if scum had an additional kill available for some reason (and my 1-shot bulletproof had either worn off or was ineffective for whatever reason). They could have targeted me with one kill, and somebody else with the other, without needing to rely on me.

Once I had confirmation that Redirector trumps Strongman, I was happy enough that I was safe siding with Town, which was my preferred option (see my earlier comment about blackmailing).
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:44 am UTC

EBWOP: Also, if it went to N6, with 2 scum, 1 town and me still alive, I had to guess who the killer was or they could have targeted me successfully without hurting their chance of winning. Without a way to ignore the redirect, the game would have to last at least that night, since I could have redirected the kill onto the other scum, so I could have wound up dead before game over.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:02 am UTC

Or scum could have just withheld the kill, going to D7 and lynch the last Town with your help. Guaranteed win for scum+you.

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:14 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:Or scum could have just withheld the kill, going to D7 and lynch the last Town with your help. Guaranteed win for scum+you.

True, but scum weren't guaranteed to do that.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:15 am UTC

Why not? That way they do not risk anything.

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby adnapemit » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:48 am UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote: Also, if it went to N6, with 2 scum, 1 town and me still alive, I had to guess who the killer was or they could have targeted me successfully without hurting their chance of winning.

Or targeted town and won. It doesn't make sense to kill you when it's one step away from winning.
If the last member of town was freezeblade though who might have still had PGO then we would have withheld as Sabrar said.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:19 am UTC

adnapemit wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote: Also, if it went to N6, with 2 scum, 1 town and me still alive, I had to guess who the killer was or they could have targeted me successfully without hurting their chance of winning.

Or targeted town and won. It doesn't make sense to kill you when it's one step away from winning.
If the last member of town was freezeblade though who might have still had PGO then we would have withheld as Sabrar said.
My point was that I couldn't know that this was what you would do, since I couldn't see into your minds. I only had your word at that point, and it wasn't sufficient on its own.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby adnapemit » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:03 pm UTC

Also congratulations to town and survivors for winning!
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby Madge » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:10 pm UTC

Thanks for siding with town jimbob!! I was on the edge of my seat with what you were going to decide.

Dim, that ending flavour was some of the best I've ever read. Thankyou so much for writing it!

Also - I blocked my would-be killer on the night of my death (as in, me and jimbob didn't double up). Turns out that the butcher is the one player I can't roleblock (hidden mechanic). Alas!
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby plytho » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:48 pm UTC

Thanks jimbob!
Would you have gone 100% scum if you couldn't redirect strongman?

I had a lot of fun, didn't expect to survive my first game.

I'm glad that holding on to my voteblock N4 didn't cost us the game. D5 would have been a lot less exciting though.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby SDK » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:42 pm UTC

Madge wrote:Also - I blocked my would-be killer on the night of my death (as in, me and jimbob didn't double up). Turns out that the butcher is the one player I can't roleblock (hidden mechanic). Alas!

It wasn't a hidden mechanic, was it? I think the Butcher used his strongman that night to get through your roleblock. Everything after that was just a bluff.

Thanks for modding, dimochka! And thanks scum team for letting me play, even if it did end up terribly for you. :P
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:04 pm UTC

plytho wrote:Thanks jimbob!
Would you have gone 100% scum if you couldn't redirect strongman?
Not necessarily. I would have sided with scum for the day's voting first, but then despite my claims to the contrary I always planned on redirecting one of them that night (and indeed any other time I could), and if it had succeeded would have switched sides.
SDK wrote:
Madge wrote:Also - I blocked my would-be killer on the night of my death (as in, me and jimbob didn't double up). Turns out that the butcher is the one player I can't roleblock (hidden mechanic). Alas!

It wasn't a hidden mechanic, was it? I think the Butcher used his strongman that night to get through your roleblock. Everything after that was just a bluff.
The Strongman was actually used N2 to kill SirG mark 2, so before Madge died.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby freezeblade » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:14 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:freezeblade getting information that I really should have sought myself that made the difference [snip]


Good thing my bluff worked then, I didn't have explicit confirmation on re-directing vs. strongman, here's the comment from the mod in question that led me to that conclusion:

PM conversation with mod wrote:Q: If player A uses a kill on player B, but player C redirects A to me instead, who would be killed?

A:If you aren't using the PGO, you would be killed, courtesy of player A.
If you are using the PGO, the person ultimately targeting you, in this case player A, would be the one killed (I try to solve a lot of these questions logically, and in this case player C would have convinced player A to target you, but wouldn't have actually had any direct interaction with you).


This led me to the conclusion that the red-director wasn't targeting, thus the strongman would be re-directed as well.

If I would have been incorrect, then jimbob would have indeed been killed, but scum would have lost at this point.

Question though, is it against scum's win condition to target jimbob that last night?

Great game everyone, nail biter at the end.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby SDK » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:32 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:The Strongman was actually used N2 to kill SirG mark 2, so before Madge died.

Oh, must have missed that.

freezeblade wrote:Question though, is it against scum's win condition to target jimbob that last night?

In my opinion, no. Since they couldn't win this particular game at that point, killing someone for meta reasons is fine. Taking future games into account, killing jimbob was the best thing they could do to work towards the scum win condition in general.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby freezeblade » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:00 pm UTC

Lets say that Scum killed someone else, and jimbob had a change of heart, not redirecting actions to me (scum had no way to know that jimbob would follow though). That would stick us at 2-2-1 the next day, where Jimbob could decide to side with scum the next day.

I see this as an easy possibility, but one that is stamped out by scum deciding to kill the indie instead of a town member, thus my question about going against win conditions. There was a possibility of them winning if they targeted a town member, but no chance of them winning if they target the indie.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:08 pm UTC

At 2-1-1 jimbob has a riskless win by lynching scum and should never side with them in the hopes of winning the next day.

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:11 pm UTC

Good game all. Well played town and survivors.

Full disclosure of scum activity:

Me - Butcher, 1 shot strongman
Sabrar - Lazarus, 1 shot ninja
adnapemit - Diablo, godfather

N1 - Sabrar ninja kill bessie (fails)
N2 - LaserGuy strongman kill ahippo
N3 - adnapemit kills SDK
N4 - LaserGuy kills Madge
N5 - Laserguy target plytho, redirected to freezeblade

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby freezeblade » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:13 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:At 2-1-1 jimbob has a riskless win by lynching scum and should never side with them in the hopes of winning the next day.


You're right, I was double-counting scum for some reason.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:18 pm UTC

Interesting note from the Gojoe thread:
dimochka wrote:There are two survivors - Wirt and RedVex - both of whom have the standard survivor win-con. However, Wirt can team up with three of the alignments under certain conditions (with SK Leoric because he is promised riches, with Town Gillian because he's in love with her, or with Indie Red Vex with whom he would leave town instead of Gillian). RedVex, on the other hand, can team up with Wirt as mentioned, OR with mafia Lazarus BUT only if Diablo is dead (the reason I picked was that Diablo would not take kindly to Lazarus commanding his own minions). Now that Znirk claimed, it would be interesting to see if he gets recruited by mafia down the line while confirmed survivor.


@dimochka:
If jimbob had targeted bessie as I had been suggesting, would he have ended up as town? Or was his alignment fixed once he teamed up with Znirk?

Also, what would have happened had we used the NK twice in a row from the same person?

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby dimochka » Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:08 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Interesting note from the Gojoe thread:
dimochka wrote:There are two survivors - Wirt and RedVex - both of whom have the standard survivor win-con. However, Wirt can team up with three of the alignments under certain conditions (with SK Leoric because he is promised riches, with Town Gillian because he's in love with her, or with Indie Red Vex with whom he would leave town instead of Gillian). RedVex, on the other hand, can team up with Wirt as mentioned, OR with mafia Lazarus BUT only if Diablo is dead (the reason I picked was that Diablo would not take kindly to Lazarus commanding his own minions). Now that Znirk claimed, it would be interesting to see if he gets recruited by mafia down the line while confirmed survivor.


@dimochka:
If jimbob had targeted bessie as I had been suggesting, would he have ended up as town? Or was his alignment fixed once he teamed up with Znirk?

Also, what would have happened had we used the NK twice in a row from the same person?

It was either Red Vex or Gillian (not both), but it did not prevent recruitment by Leoric (in a way, the "love" was two-sided and either one would recruit the other and prevent future "love", while the "greed" was one-sided as Wirt wouldn't know that Leoric was around and therefore Carlington would need to target him).
I do plan to be a lot more explicit with recruiting mechanisms next game, unless I put bastardry at high in the setup.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby dimochka » Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:09 pm UTC

Any tips for me? Suggestions / recommendations for how I could improve my modding / balancing / anything else? I'd like to run something again in a couple of months.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

Postby SDK » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:00 pm UTC

I think you already realize that town was too powerful this game. Not obscenely powerful, but running this identical setup I'd expect town to win a fair bit more often than not. The swingy-ness of the recruiting roles might have decided that in a few of those hypothetical games as well, and I'm personally not a fan of swingy roles. Either way, you could have made scum more powerful by making their one-shots permanent or something, but probably it would have been better to just make town weaker. Masons are already very powerful alone, no need to give us extra abilities. Avoiding tacking more positives onto another powerful role like cop is also an easy fix. The balance seemed decent otherwise, but I'd avoid putting two survivors into the same game - kingmaking isn't much fun.

The other big one you also already realize - hidden mechanics had better be amazing if it's going to be worth hiding information from your players. Deciding that certain players can't be affected by certain abilities is fine, but there's really no reason not to tell one or the other that that's the case. I'm always a big proponent of giving more information to the players whenever possible. Hidden aspects aren't something you can play with, they just happen! The more information the players have, the more opportunity they have to strategize (which is really the core of any game - correct decision-making).

I think you did a great job overall. I liked your flavor, and the game itself had a good mix of roles. You handled absent players very well. Overall, I had a good time at least! I'm a sucker for being a mason though. :mrgreen:
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