Shakespeare Mafia III - Curtain Call

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Sabrar
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby Sabrar » Mon May 22, 2017 7:46 am UTC

Gopher of Pern wrote:If SDK is scum, we still wouldn't know bessie's alignment.
This is true but we would be hitting scum with more certainty.
Gopher of Pern wrote:And judging from SDK's last comment, even if SDK is town, it may still be that bessie is scum.
I don't see this. Can you explain?

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Postby Gopher of Pern » Mon May 22, 2017 7:51 am UTC

SDK wrote:I will say this, if it puts your mind at ease: My role PM does not explicitly state that bessie is town. My role interacts with bessie in a way that points to her being town as very likely.


Sorry, this was the post I was referring to. It is not confirmation of bessie as town, just likely from SDK's point of view.

I would like further clarification of this, if SDK would be forthcoming. Might the likelihood change if there are two scum teams?
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby plytho » Mon May 22, 2017 8:13 am UTC

I'm back from my weekend.
I'm going to work on a new reads post today but first some quick thoughts:

Sabrar, I like the new look.
BoomFrog, I'm very impressed by your prose.

@SirGabriel: could you order your reads list in a town-to-scum please?

The new thing seems to be to point out that bessie feels off and to call her scummy. I get that she's feeling different but I feel she spends a little to much time pointing out the fact that people lazily read her as town to actually be scum. Perhaps an indie?

BoomFrog wrote:plytho - Style pings me as town again. But only barely. Plytho: Who do you find scummiest right now? Who would you shot if you had to kill someone right now?

I thought it was pretty clear that my top scum read is Gopher of Pern. Back when I made my reads list D1 I only read DethStalker as scummier and today I've been pointing out things that pinged me about Gopher. Note that I am about to reread so my opinion may change, but I doubt it.

I'm going to start rereading now.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby LaserGuy » Mon May 22, 2017 8:23 am UTC

plytho wrote:The new thing seems to be to point out that bessie feels off and to call her scummy. I get that she's feeling different but I feel she spends a little to much time pointing out the fact that people lazily read her as town to actually be scum. Perhaps an indie?


No, she's definitely scum.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby Sabrar » Mon May 22, 2017 10:49 am UTC

plytho wrote:The new thing seems to be to point out that bessie feels off and to call her scummy.
What 'new thing'? As far as I can tell it was only LaserGuy who proposed this idea and Gopher of Pern who agreed with him. Plus you already have GoP as your most scummy read. Did you really need to defend bessie here?

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby plytho » Mon May 22, 2017 11:15 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:
plytho wrote:The new thing seems to be to point out that bessie feels off and to call her scummy.
What 'new thing'? As far as I can tell it was only LaserGuy who proposed this idea and Gopher of Pern who agreed with him. Plus you already have GoP as your most scummy read. Did you really need to defend bessie here?

I don't really understand your questions. Do you disagree that it's a 'thing'? Or that it's new?

How is the fact that I read GoP as scummy relevant here?

Can't I provide my opinion on bessie? I saw someone making an argument I didn't agree with and I responded.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby Sabrar » Mon May 22, 2017 11:21 am UTC

I disagree that it's a 'thing'. To me the phrase you used implies a 'trend' or 'craze' that would be followed by more people. Having GoP as your scum-read is relevant in my opinion because you should be less inclined to consider his words as worthy of note.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby plytho » Mon May 22, 2017 11:54 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:I disagree that it's a 'thing'. To me the phrase you used implies a 'trend' or 'craze' that would be followed by more people.
I guess I may have overstated the 'thingness'. I do think other people might still weigh in on it.
Sabrar wrote: Having GoP as your scum-read is relevant in my opinion because you should be less inclined to consider his words as worthy of note.

I'm not sure I agree with this. You're saying I should not engage the arguments of people I read as scummy?

I'm confused, what exactly do you imagine my intention was when I wrote:
plytho wrote:The new thing seems to be to point out that bessie feels off and to call her scummy. I get that she's feeling different but I feel she spends a little to much time pointing out the fact that people lazily read her as town to actually be scum. Perhaps an indie?
Because I saw people talking about something.I thought on it for a minute and shared my opinion.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby Sabrar » Mon May 22, 2017 12:06 pm UTC

plytho wrote:You're saying I should not engage the arguments of people I read as scummy?
No, that's not what I said. Going from a personal example I know that in my mind I have an automatic filter that lessens the immediate impact of people's opinion whom I find scummy. That may change upon re-read, however I think that in your place I would have looked at GoP's agreement on LaserGuy's analysis as someone who attempts to shift attention away from himself. My first reaction would not have been to view it as a 'thing'.

plytho wrote:I'm confused, what exactly do you imagine my intention was when I wrote:
As I mentioned previously I thought you were defending bessie from an attack. Suggesting her being indie is very interesting because that would raise questions about SDK. So let me ask you: what do you think SDK's alignment is if bessie is truly indie?

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby plytho » Mon May 22, 2017 12:27 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
plytho wrote:You're saying I should not engage the arguments of people I read as scummy?
No, that's not what I said. Going from a personal example I know that in my mind I have an automatic filter that lessens the immediate impact of people's opinion whom I find scummy. That may change upon re-read, however I think that in your place I would have looked at GoP's agreement on LaserGuy's analysis as someone who attempts to shift attention away from himself. My first reaction would not have been to view it as a 'thing'.
I Guess it's sort of the other way around for me. When I'm following along I tend to read the flow of the thread and I don't pay too much attention to my general read of players (particularly when I'm reading in bulk after I wake up). When I'm concentrated on reading a specific player I'll be trying to figure out their motives and see if there's a scummy reason to post something. I guess I don't have a passive scumdar :)
Sabrar wrote:
plytho wrote:I'm confused, what exactly do you imagine my intention was when I wrote:
As I mentioned previously I thought you were defending bessie from an attack. Suggesting her being indie is very interesting because that would raise questions about SDK. So let me ask you: what do you think SDK's alignment is if bessie is truly indie?
That was a bit of a gut read without that context in mind. Good question though. I don't think SDK is scum. Could be town or indie. I had trouble figuring out possible motivations for SDK's claim and an indie wincon related to bessie seems like a possibility. Seeing as SDK doesn't have explicit confirmation about bessie being town it might be that he's town and she's a town-aligned indie.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby DGames | Bard » Mon May 22, 2017 1:25 pm UTC

I'm mostly waiting on our vacationers to get back, but I generally agree with Plytho (I don't think there's anything I disagree with on a first glance); GoP seems scummy; GoP lied about not protecting dethstalker (or perhaps forgot) that he did defend dethstalker by calling him noobtown.

My opinion on bessie is...I like golden retrievers, and people that have cute doggos as their avatar can't be bad people, therefore bessie can't be a bad person (Sabrar is basically in a similar vein and therefore he also must be a good person.)

Oh gosh, what am I saying?! Ok, in all honesty, nothing that Bessie has said so far makes me feel that she is a scummer except when I felt a slight overextension towards dethstalker (perhaps I do not fully understand that interaction), but I don't -think- they are aligned at least. Basically, Bessie suggested that dethstalker's "hated" quality was scummy, but the quality itself is ultimately null I feel (at least from where I'm from). It's more likely likely that Bessie could be of the super natural variant, but that's not something I'm all too worried about right now considering her current play.

BoomFrog seems to be a popular topic as well, but I don't really have a strong opinion on him. If I have time, I'll do a quick reread of some of the other slots to see what I can find.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby Madge » Mon May 22, 2017 1:31 pm UTC

Works been crazy still so a phone post is the order of the day as I realised before bed that I hadn't posted:

Been thinking about yoloswag while reading other posts. Maybe active lurking. Will think about it.

Bessie traffic lights going out arrgh you need some UPSes or something up in there but seriously I had a visceral reaction to that :O

Bessie is acting real funny. If I didn't know better I'd say cult... Great and everyone seems to have picked up on this already so I'm being one of the trendy kids by pointing out

Madge: Why do you feel it in your interest
To declare so loudly that you have power in the night
Those who speak such are often silenced for their carelessness.


Honestly I was excited to get a night action and annoyed not to. Also thought I'd let any Towne who blocked me know maybe don't next time? Or maybe I'm softclaiming and trying to draw the kill to me. Only the almighty can know.

I like boomfrog fwiw though I'm sure that's just because they're standing up for me.

I hope to have a better post tomorrow but no promises if work stays as intense as it has been lately.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby plytho » Mon May 22, 2017 1:39 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:I disagree that it's a 'thing'. To me the phrase you used implies a 'trend' or 'craze' that would be followed by more people.
Madge wrote:Bessie is acting real funny. If I didn't know better I'd say cult... Great and everyone seems to have picked up on this already so I'm being one of the trendy kids by pointing out


@Sabrar: See, it is a trend/'thing' :wink:

(Yeah, I'm also reading Madge as scum so she may have similarly found a wagon to jump on.)
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby SirGabriel » Mon May 22, 2017 1:42 pm UTC

plytho wrote:@SirGabriel: could you order your reads list in a town-to-scum please?


TOWN
bessie
Bard
plytho
BoomFrog
Znirk/Sabrar
dimochka
freezeblade/Kalira
Yoloswag
Madge
LaserGuy
SDK
Gopher of Pern
SCUM

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby Sabrar » Mon May 22, 2017 1:48 pm UTC

@SirGabriel: Bard claims to have info in role-pm that LaserGuy is Town. If you think Bard is very townie why do you have LaserGuy so low?

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby Sabrar » Mon May 22, 2017 1:54 pm UTC

@plytho: well now, you just might be right. :)
How is that read-list coming along?

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby plytho » Mon May 22, 2017 2:00 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:@plytho: well now, you just might be right. :)
How is that read-list coming along?

Nearly there, currently trying to get a read on the new you. Only SDK and SirGabriel after that.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby SirGabriel » Mon May 22, 2017 2:08 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:@SirGabriel: Bard claims to have info in role-pm that LaserGuy is Town. If you think Bard is very townie why do you have LaserGuy so low?

I generally look at players individually when doing analysis posts. I had forgotten that Bard claimed LaserGuy was town, and (unless I missed something) that wasn't mentioned in any of LaserGuy's posts, so I didn't factor it into my analysis. I'll reevaluate and get back to you later.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby SirGabriel » Mon May 22, 2017 2:34 pm UTC

Since my main case against LaserGuy was the connection to DethStalker, and a DethStalker/LaserGuy/Bard scum team doesn't look particularly likely, I'll leave Bard at slightly townie and move LaserGuy to neutral.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby bessie » Mon May 22, 2017 2:41 pm UTC

LaserGuy, you seem quite confident in your read of me. Confident enough to start a wagon. Perhaps too confident for someone playing his first game as town.
LaserGuy wrote:
SDK wrote:Another question for you, LaserGuy: This is your first town game after being scum twice in a row. Are you having difficulties switching gears? Please explain how you're feeling.


I'm finding the game so far to be very mentally taxing. In hindsight, it was probably a mistake for me to attempt to do any roleplaying since it meant I've spent a lot of time and energy on trying to make my posts have the style I wanted, and I think my analysis has suffered as a result. I also feel blind. In my previous games, I knew who my targets were, and who I had to protect. I had assumed scum would be much harder to play than town because you're outnumbered and having to lie or obfuscate all the time, but upon reflection, I think that townies probably have it a lot rougher because you don't know anything, and don't know what you can trust. Townies are trying put a puzzle together, while scum just have to come over and discreetly kick the pieces.
You’ve gained a lot of confidence since D1. What’s happened between then and now? N1?

Re: your analysis of my posts.

LaserGuy wrote:Let's start with the most important questions first: Who are you and what have you done with bessie? Is there a ransom that needs to be paid? Does her family know? Her dog?
:) As much as I liked this, I’m going to have to refute your analysis.

LaserGuy wrote: As I note above, it takes her seven posts before she even attempts any real scumhunting
I take offence to this remark. Post 2 was letting everyone know my RL issues and why it would be a few days before I would be fully joining the game. It’s called courtesy. Post 3 was a pointed accusation to Gopher of Pern for rolefishing. Posts 4-7 were all done Saturday, which took quite an effort; if you read post #7 carefully you will see that I was at Disneyland much of the day and posting when I could. You refer to post #7 as my first attempt at actual scumhunting (interestingly you were one of the scum I hunted), but also refer to my analysis of SDK in post #4. Why do you not consider this scum hunting? Do you believe that to qualify as scum hunting one must reach the conclusion of scum on the player analyzed? Also interesting, in your analysis, often when I push a suspicion on someone (referred to by some as scumhunting) you label the remark “snarky”.

LaserGuy wrote:Post 15: Town-to-scum list. Gut reads with no analysis.
This was explained. The forums were down at the time I had scheduled for my reread, and I wanted to get something up in case they went down again. Others acknowledged the problems with the forums. Like here.
LaserGuy wrote:The day opens and I find myself most pleasantly surprised to be alive. I appreciate sincerely my most gracious retainer vouching on my behalf. My apologies for not returning more promptly at the twilight hours of last day: I had some technical difficulties connecting to the forums, and then retired for the night.


Some other things of note.
LaserGuy wrote:Post 18: In case of death post: No scum reads. Lampshades that she didn't tunnel. Says she'll move me down my list despite being at the bottom already.
DethStalker was at the bottom. And my reasons for moving you down were for not unvoting, which you later explained as the forums were down at the time you set aside to play (see above). Remember?

LaserGuy wrote:Post 6: Claims she isn't as townie as people think. Not much else.
Not true. I claimed (correctly) that I was not at the top of everyone’s town list. Oh I see what happened now, I just reread Sabrar’s remark and see that I interpreted it wrong. Now I understand why he did this odd calculation.

LaserGuy wrote:It's hard to know even where to start with this. If it weren't for SDK throwing you a lifeline in his first post, I daresay you ought to have been lynched last night.
So are you agreeing with me, that SDK’s confirmed town claim on me shouldn’t have been so easily accepted as proof of my towniness?

LaserGuy wrote:From this read, I think bessie is almost certainly scum, and most likely aligned with DethStalker.
Why? Because I tried to help him out? I wasn’t the only one. And this isn’t the only game I have tried to help out a newbie that didn’t understand what they signed up for. Perhaps you need to reread Diablo (other examples can be provided if needed, Wheel of Time 1, Matrix 6 Newbie Redux, etc).

LaserGuy wrote:The bulk of bessie's posts are vacuous, transparently so.
I take offence to this too, but I’ve got to go to work, so maybe later. I would have preferred to make this post after we heard from SDK, but by the time he gets back there will be less than a day before deadline, and there won’t be opportunity for extended discussion with him.

Ninja'd, back later.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby plytho » Mon May 22, 2017 2:52 pm UTC

Reads list:

bessie: To me bessie feels townie, I haven’t read LaserGuy’s case against her yet so that might still change my mind. I think she makes a good point when she tells people to be more critical of her. It sounds like a townie calling on her fellow townies to be more critical. If they’re not giving bessie a fair read, who else are they being too soft on? LaserGuy is right that something feels different about bessie but I'm not seeing how she could be scum. She could be a town-aligned indie.

BoomFrog: Makes a good point here.
BoomFrog wrote:I do believe I had the choice to push for poor Madges death if I so chose
So, in choosing not, unless she too is my nefarious companion I think I deserve some credit that I at least am not one type of scum.
If BoomFrog was DethStalkers scumbuddy a push for Madge would have been the right play. On the other hand, DethStalker seems like he’d be a liability for a scum team D2, he didn’t look too coachable so a bus might have been just as sensible. Particularly if you can point out the next day that you couldn’t possible be his teammate.

The town end of BoomFrogs list are people with pretty low content without explanation. Also ‘secret club members’?
BoomFrog wrote:Town
-secret club members-
dimochka
Madge
freezeblade

@BoomFrog: are you claiming mason?

I’m not a fan of the lack of scum on his reads list.
I also haven’t forgotten the weird neutral read on himself on his first town-to-scum list.

Suspicious neutral.

Bard: I feel he has reasonable content and, like me, he’s also gunning for Gopher. I would like to see something like a reads list or town to scum to get an overview of Bard’s opinions on other players. Townie side of neutral.

Dimochka: No content yet D2. those 12 hours have passed, I look forward to that full post. Slipping towards the scummy end of neutral due to lurking.

Gopher of Pern: I’m not reading anything that changes my mind. Scummy

YOLOSWAG: I liked his D1 content, it looked like active scumhunting to me. As he said himself, most of his D2 content was null because he forgot about the 2 scum teams, which, come to think of it would be quite a bold scum play and I’m not sure YOLO’s that bold. I’m hoping for some good content from YOLO tuesday. Townie side of neutral.

Kalira: not really anything yet. neutral

LaserGuy: on the townie side, linked to bard His D2 content is mainly the read on bessie. I disagree with his conclusion, because I expect scum!bessie would perform much better though I do think he pointed out some interesting things.

Madge: lacking on a couple of fronts if you’re as lurky as Madge your content needs to be stellar and it’s far from it. I have no idea why town!madge would volunteer that information about her role. Scummy

New and improved Sabrar: It’s hard to separate D1 Sabrar from D2 Sabrar. I see that he lost his three top scum reads from his D1 reads list. (jimbob, LaserGuy and Znirk) Which is probably why he’s not as focused now as he was D1 on jimbob. (Or perhaps his current top reads just aren’t as active as jimbob.) Nothing has pinged me from Sabrar D1 so he’s on the townie side.

SDK: is back tomorrow hopefully with a solid analysis of todays content. He may be a town-aligned indie.

SirGabriel: I don’t have a strong read on SirGabriel. He feels townie but a bit too lurky perhaps? Neutral

Town-to-scum

plytho
Sabrar
DGames | Bard
LaserGuy
Bessie
SirGabriel
#HBC | YOLOSWAG
SDK
kalira
Dimochka
BoomFrog
Madge
Gopher of Pern
Scum

I bolded a couple of people that I feel are lacking in content D2 and could improve their position by providing (solid) content.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby dimochka » Mon May 22, 2017 7:04 pm UTC

Ah, back to society. Seems like you're all trying to destroy my ticket to stardom, which is simply unacceptable. Please sit back down and watch me so you could learn something. And maybe it'll help identify those who are trying to ruin my performance.

I've caught up on most of the discussion, and several things stand out to me.
1. i don't understand Yolo's list of whom we should lynch at the beginning of day 2. I don't even know how that list was put together (not everyone on it was voting for dethstalker, or someone dead). and that forceful tone doesn't sound very reassuring to me regarding his own alignment. For what it's worth, in the previous game when I was lynched D1, all scum were all my bandwagon. While it's not the same, but won't take the argument of "at least one partner was off the bandwagon" as a given. Dethstalker was scummy enough that anyone could've made a case to vote for him. I was for it too, but I don't think I should be given any special treatment regardless of whether I was on the bandwagon. Yolo's posts sound to me like he's downplaying the existence of one of the two scum groups.

2.
SDK wrote:So DethStalker was scum after all. That's good news, but I think YOLO's on the wrong track to look off his wagon exclusively. YOLO and BoomFrog voted him early on, but though YOLO at least thought DethStalker was scum, BoomFrog only mentioned him to say his vote was to get more content. BoomFrog later unvoted, trying to get something new going on Laser then me before getting back onto the DethStalker wagon. plytho then Sabrar then jimbob followed after that. Basically, YOLO and plytho were the only ones on that wagon who actually thought DethStalker was scum. No one actually pushed to get him lynched. It's not great.

Boomfrog did the same thing last game when he voted for me believing me scummy, then voted someone else to "see what sticks" and then came back to voting for me. I could be wrong but I'm seeing it as a similar play. So I don't see it as necessarily indicative of scum.

3. Minor thing, but might be worth mentioning. In the past i've seen people called out for "being happy" about a successful lynch, because it's a good way to pretend to be town. I've been lynched for it the first time I did it (I forget who pointed it out). Don't know how reliable it is, but I noticed both bard and plytho reacting that way.

4. @madge - 2-2 teams seem possible, but too weak in my opinion. Agree with boomfrog that this feels off. Normally I'd have madge as likely town given her content so far (or rather not scum), but since we have two scum teams, she could be scum blocked by the other scum team.

5. @bessie - I actually had some thoughts here which i'll spoil below so you can see what i was thinking, but as I was typing I came to the conclusion that i may be wrong. I will do a re-read of jimbob now. What I was going to say is that I don't necessarily think his death was reads related, but I'm thinking that nothing really stood out so it might've been...
Thoughts that led me to change my mind on his death:
Spoiler:
@bessie regarding your analysis of dead people: you're saying that supernaturals killed jimbob because they were worried about reads. I don't know that I agree. Kills can often just be for wine, especially if the scum team isn't under suspicion. If SDK were regular scum, he would've probably tried to kill bessie to get himself to look more townie. Which to me means that he cannot kill (or it's somehow against his wincon). I don't know what the deal is with bard and laserguy, but I have a similar feeling about both of them - if one is scum, he would kill the other to make themselves more confirmed (although would that be really wine-y and suspicious possibly?). If I were a doctor (I'm not), one of sabrar/boomfrog would likely be my protected target. So jimbob is relatively logical, but then once again we get into wine territory. So logically scum would just kill whoever is the biggest threat. So we can make an educated guess that supernaturals were more worried about jimbob than many of the other players. Which means I need to revisit jimbob's list.

6. Still @bessie - You can vote me if you want. You know what they say, there's no such thing as bad press/publicity/votes. As long as someone is "interested" in me as the star of the show and paying attention to me, that's sufficient. And if they don't, I'll bring attention to myself. Logically, as each act nears its end, it becomes clear that I'm the best, and I therefore have no need for silly votes at that point; a standing ovation usually suffices.

7.
SirGabriel wrote:
Sabrar wrote:@SirGabriel: Bard claims to have info in role-pm that LaserGuy is Town. If you think Bard is very townie why do you have LaserGuy so low?

I generally look at players individually when doing analysis posts. I had forgotten that Bard claimed LaserGuy was town, and (unless I missed something) that wasn't mentioned in any of LaserGuy's posts, so I didn't factor it into my analysis. I'll reevaluate and get back to you later.

All I'm going to say about this for now is that I'm somewhat surprised about you forgetting this. To be fair, I don't find you scummy, but this feels odd. And yes, he did mention it (and even got a response back).
LaserGuy wrote:Speaking of whom, I unfortunately have no countervailing information in support of Bard.


More soon. My thoughts right now are that Yolo has not improved in my eyes at all, and I need to do a re-read of jimbob. And based on his list, I need to do a specific re-read of plytho/bard/sabrar. I'll do this re-read now, but wanted to at least get a post out as promised.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby kalira » Mon May 22, 2017 7:10 pm UTC

IRL:
Spoiler:
I thought I was going to be free from theatre obligations, but as it turns out, a local theatre’s ASM has to have knee surgery and they’ve asked me to fill in for the remainder of the run of this show, so my weekends are going to continue to be wonky basically through the end of June. On the positive side, this theatre may actually pay me instead of my volunteering for free! WOO!

I have not read much of D2 past where I contributed yet, so if something bombshell-y has happened or this analysis covers something someone else has already brought up, I will have to catch up to it.

Thoughts/things that stood out on D1, as requested (Okay, so this will be thoughts on pages 1-4 and Dethstalker’s wagon since it’s already getting long. Thoughts on pages 5+ to come as soon as I can write them.) (Intense apologies, esp to those who haven't played with me before, for the wall of text):

SDK was first to pick up on possibility of two killing factions (based on opening flavor), though he didn’t express it in those terms; I’m not sure if that makes him *more* or *less* likely to be in one of the killing factions or not (pointing out that we may need to look in two directions for scum is both a positive and a negative IMO). I would tend to lean toward that being a townie thing though, especially so early in the day. Not sure what to make of his interaction with Sabrar on the topic of bessie’s towniness.

Giving someone a restriction where they will automatically be voting someone at beginning of day seems a little too attention-drawing a thing to give to a scum player, so my initial thought was that bessie seemed more likely town than not, but that is solely based on game mechanics, and who knows precisely how bastardy this game is? (Bard does mention this same line of thought, so I’m not alone on that initial reaction, at least.) RE: bessie’s not responding to SDK’s “outing” her as town sooner, she claimed it was because she responds to things as they come to her. I have to imagine in a case where it seems someone has one-sided information about her, that it would be very appealing as something to talk about as soon as possible, so I wonder why she didn’t do so earlier. Then again, I have to ask myself whether scum!bessie would make such a misstep as to ignore an opening to seem more townie by pushing back against SDK.

LaserGuy: Early on, you mention you think a lyncher is a possibility. Do you still think this is a possibility? How do you think the lyncher would function in this game? Usually on this board (IIRC), a lyncher is given a character name that their role wishes to lynch, and they have to figure out who is playing that character, then get them lynched. With everyone’s roles already public knowledge, do you still think that a lyncher may be amongst our ranks?

GoP early on asks people with vote manipulation powers to come forward, then later walks this back after being called out on it, by saying “[it] was mainly about the one or two visible vote manipulations: dethstalker having an extra vote on them, and bessie having an automatic vote on me.” This didn’t really alleviate my misgivings about the concept, especially as he showed no inclination that this was what he meant in his original post.

LaserGuy wrote:
Znirk wrote:I think we're all agreed Day One is hard,
Yet what I hear in the debate thus far
Hath led me to suspect of Gabriel
And Laser Guy, and to a lesser point,
I wonder at what Master SDK
Is up to when he shouts that Madge is town.
vote: Laserguy

Madge is town? How curious.
Unvote Znirk

LaserGuy, can you explain why you would unvote here? It seemed curious, to use your own turn of phrase. (I don’t particularly care about the mechanics of your vote in this instance; I’m interested in why you would call out a mistake/slip on Znirk’s part and then unvote him, especially when he just voted for you.)

RE: LaserGuy’s discussion of mechanics of scum teams, possible he is scum attempting to call out to the other scum team and imply (whether truthfully or not) that their teams can win together? If he is scum on a low-population scum team, he would very likely suspect there had to be another scum team. Is scum!LG trying to flick the lights for the other scum?

BoomFrog wrote: Secondly scum likely don't know if there are other scum or not and there seems little need for them to stratagize about that D1.

Except that if there are two scum teams, they are both likely to be fairly small (as has been discussed both D1 and D2), which would very much suggest that there was another scum team in play (especially given that we know there is no cult in this game). If LG was on a scum team with, for example, two members, he would be hard pressed not to think that there had to be another scum team out there, as opposed to just an SK. It seems strange that BF would not have thought of this, so this quote from BF makes me a bit suspicious. Possibility he and LG are scummates?

I don’t see jimbob defending Dethstalker in the post that bessie sees it. To a certain extent her post asking DS what he thinks of jimbob’s defense sort of just strikes me as part of her new more aggressive style, combined with trying to get basically anything out of DS. (Sabrar apparently saw it too, but I’m not focusing on that bc that’s confirmed town-on-town, whereas bessie’s alignment is not yet confirmed.) This is in contrast to GoP’s post, in which he definitely defends DS – bessie treats this post the same as jimbob’s, though I see a marked contrast between them.

Not a lot of substance in Madge’s return post. Most had been covered already. Active lurking, or just normal “Madge hates D1”?

Reveal of SDK’s apparent beer: I am left to wonder why someone who is town would outright state someone else is town without complete confirmation. SDK’s claim that his role PM only implies that bessie is town is worrisome and means that town has been operating on incomplete/incorrect information ‘til this point. I still can’t figure SDK out on this point.

The wagon:
Spoiler:
  • Jimbob votes Dethstalker before he shows up to the game, possibly to gain insight on Dethstalker’s “hated” vote (I am unsure if there is a better term for ‘automatic vote by non-existent entity because your character trait is hated,’ so I’m just using that one).
  • YOLO votes Dethstalker because “swag” after a few early rounds of not being able to get Dethstalker to give much info – called out specifically by SabrarV1.0 afterwards for no explanation. Mentions he does this (unexplained votes) regardless of alignment.
  • Jimbob unvotes fairly soon after, mentioning that DS is now at two votes from people plus DS’s extra vote. Still wants to discuss mechanics of what turned out to be the “hated” vote. Gives a lot of possible explanations, some considerably more sensical (screw you, spellcheck, I’m making that a word) than others.
  • After considerably more time and failure of efforts, a “you’re unhelpful” vote from BF.
  • No movement on votes for ~2 pages, and with less than a day left til nightfall, BF unvotes.
  • Quickvotes in final 10ish hours: SDK (no explanation explicitly given), BF (second vote for DS) (claimed because no option for his preferred lynch), plytho (DS’s unhelpfulness), Sabrar (no explanation explicitly given), jimbob (“join[ing] that wagon”).
  • SDK unvotes (“nothing to lose” by voting BF instead).
Thoughts: Jimbob’s initial vote is a null for me – testing the anonymous vote doesn’t seem any more town than not early on, and his late vote seems, well, “wagon”y. There was pretty much zero possibility of anyone else getting lynched at that point, so I’m not even sure why jimbob threw his vote on the pile, other than just to have a vote down. (I’m an idiot; slipped my mind that jimbob died and flipped town. Do what you will with that analysis.)

YOLO’s vote sticks to me just a little. If YOLO were town, he seems like he latches on to an unhelpful random early on and just doesn’t feel like letting go. If YOLO were DS’s scummate, possibility he figured out early on that DS’s content wasn’t going to get better and bussed from very early on. I feel like in previous games, he has seemed more interested in hunting around for scum rather than leaving his vote on one person for most of D1, but that may be an incorrect recollection (I’ll admit I may be conflating him with Sabrar or SDK on that front, as they’re all decently close to similar playstyles).

BF’s vote seems almost like a “test if this will start a wagon” vote. At the time BF voted, DS, GoP, and SDK each had 2 votes on them, so any of them were still possible candidates for his vote. It had become fairly clear that DS at that point was unlikely to improve content, though. Might be possible that BF is scum not on DS’s team that saw an opening to start a wagon to lynch low-hanging fruit. Seems unlikely that Guild!BF would bus his teammate at the point at which BF voted, but I suppose that is also possible; it just feels like he could have fairly easily thrown a good vote and explanation on either of the other two and tried to swing thoughts in that direction instead (presuming they were not also Guild).

If SDK is scum, likely not Guild member. Light possibility of scummates with non-Guild!BF, given they voted in quick succession against DS, which seemed to set off a wagon in the final hours of D1. SDK then unvoted at the end of the day. He claimed he had nothing to lose by switching his vote to BF, but there was no chance of lynching BF at that point; the wagon was too far gone. Possibility he jumped ship to avoid being on the wagon in case DS flipped town?

I get pretty much no information from plytho’s vote on DS – it mostly just seems like a wagon jump. For same reason as SDK, light possibility of scummates with non-Guild!BF, but it does seem a little less likely than SDK being same.


Last thing: just because I know it was frustrating to bessie last game that people were thinking she was NK’d because she was townie rather than because her reads were good, I just want to spoiler post jimbob’s and Sabrar’s final town-scum lists from D1 in case we can get any info from them.
Spoiler:
From Wednesday, May 17:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Town
plytho
bessie
SDK
SirGabriel
BoomFrog
dimochka
Madge (lurker)
Yoloswag
Gopher of Pern
freezeblade (lurker)
DethStalker (lurker)
DGames | Bard
Sabrar
LaserGuy
Znirk
Scum

From Monday, May 15:
Sabrar wrote: TOWN
bessie
freezeblade
Madge
dimochka
plytho
BoomFrog
Gopher of Pern
Bard - neutral line is here
SirGabriel
YOLOSWAG
Znirk
LaserGuy
jimbobmacdoodle
SCUM
plytho wrote:Isn't bowling just a subcategory of pottery?

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby kalira » Mon May 22, 2017 7:11 pm UTC

While I'm working on second half of D1 and D2 thoughts, does anyone have questions for me?
plytho wrote:Isn't bowling just a subcategory of pottery?

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby dimochka » Mon May 22, 2017 7:18 pm UTC

Quick edit post: I just realized that when I last said Sabrar I meant znirk, so really I'm working on detailed reads on both.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby BoomFrog » Mon May 22, 2017 7:53 pm UTC

plytho wrote:The town end of BoomFrogs list are people with pretty low content without explanation. Also ‘secret club members’?

@BoomFrog: are you claiming mason?
No.

Suspicious neutral.
Good.

SDK: is back tomorrow hopefully with a solid analysis of todays content. He may be a town-aligned indie.

Town-to-scum

plytho
Sabrar
DGames | Bard
LaserGuy
Bessie
SirGabriel
#HBC | YOLOSWAG
SDK
kalira
Dimochka
BoomFrog
Madge
Gopher of Pern
Scum

I bolded a couple of people that I feel are lacking in content D2 and could improve their position by providing (solid) content.
Why do you feel SDK's D1 was townie?
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby Sabrar » Mon May 22, 2017 7:58 pm UTC

plytho wrote:YOLOSWAG: I liked his D1 content, it looked like active scumhunting to me.
Which part of it exactly? I re-read him during the night and found nothing noteworthy.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby plytho » Mon May 22, 2017 7:59 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote: Why do you feel SDK's D1 was townie?

Where do you see me say that?
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby mpolo » Mon May 22, 2017 7:59 pm UTC

dimochka wrote:Quick edit post: I just realized that when I last said Sabrar I meant znirk, so really I'm working on detailed reads on both.


Sabrar D2 is Znirk D1, in case you missed that.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby plytho » Mon May 22, 2017 8:00 pm UTC

Oh, mpolo, could we get the votals please?
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby plytho » Mon May 22, 2017 8:14 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
plytho wrote:YOLOSWAG: I liked his D1 content, it looked like active scumhunting to me.
Which part of it exactly? I re-read him during the night and found nothing noteworthy.

Good point. I think I just like his style and I was letting that guide me. Upon checking I agree that his content D1 wasn't as good as I thought it was.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby BoomFrog » Mon May 22, 2017 8:35 pm UTC

plytho wrote:
BoomFrog wrote: Why do you feel SDK's D1 was townie?

Where do you see me say that?

You have him now as "town-aligned Indy", he hasn't done anything of substance D2, why do you suspect he is town aligned?
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Postby Sabrar » Mon May 22, 2017 8:42 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
DGames | Bard wrote:I've been crumbing this all game, so it's legit. Cat's honor!
Could you highlight how you have been doing this, please. I don't have time to check this out myself.

@Bard: did you answer the above?

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby BoomFrog » Mon May 22, 2017 8:48 pm UTC

@Bard: Who was most suspicious of you at the end of D1?

@Sabrar: After he answers if you have some data on that I'd like to know what you recorded.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby Sabrar » Mon May 22, 2017 8:49 pm UTC

kalira wrote:Giving someone a restriction where they will automatically be voting someone at beginning of day seems a little too attention-drawing a thing to give to a scum player,
Dethstalker was given an equally attention-grabbing 'ability' and he was scum. Did you consider that?

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby plytho » Mon May 22, 2017 9:01 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:
plytho wrote:
BoomFrog wrote: Why do you feel SDK's D1 was townie?

Where do you see me say that?

You have him now as "town-aligned Indy", he hasn't done anything of substance D2, why do you suspect he is town aligned?

Because I haven't picked up any scum tells on SDK, but he doesn't feel entirely townie either. So I'm thinking some kind of indie. Town aligned (or neutral) seems more likely than scum aligned for balance reasons. I am by no means an expert on balance but that's how I feel.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby Gopher of Pern » Mon May 22, 2017 10:37 pm UTC

I wonder if I finally get a game as scum, if I'll seem quite townie to people. :)

Picking up on Kalira's point about read lists of the dead, both Sabrar and jimbob had Znirk (now Sabrar) and Laserguy at the scummy end (Interestingly, they both had each other as well). Going off today, I've been less sure of Sabrar, they do seem to be acting slightly differently. Still posting as much as ever, but that's usual Sabrar.

(If Sabrar has flipped sides, does that me he wins no matter what?)

Laserguy, I feel better about. I do not think they are scum.

On the other hand, bessie is near the top of both lists. Could bessie be taking advantage of what happened to her last game to put us on the track of their scum lists? If bessie had mentioned the possibility, I might've said yes, but it was Kalira who brought it up.

Does anyone think it likely there is scum between Sabrar(Znirk) and Laserguy?
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby LaserGuy » Tue May 23, 2017 12:32 am UTC

bessie wrote:LaserGuy, you seem quite confident in your read of me. Confident enough to start a wagon. Perhaps too confident for someone playing his first game as town.

You’ve gained a lot of confidence since D1. What’s happened between then and now? N1?


Finding scum is a great confidence booster.

bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Post 15: Town-to-scum list. Gut reads with no analysis.


This was explained. The forums were down at the time I had scheduled for my reread, and I wanted to get something up in case they went down again. Others acknowledged the problems with the forums. Like here.


And since then you've posted on three further occasions before the end of D1, and ten more in D2. You've had time to do setup speculation, read the entrails of the dead, compose this, complain about how everyone is reading you unfairly as town, and talk about the bar scene. Your reasoning for why you didn't do it at that time was explained. If this had been a priority, you certainly weren't lacking time to do it. Instead of doing player analysis, you settled on a lot of active lurking.

In that quoted post from Hamlet, what did you mean when you were saying that you couldn't play against your wincon? Why did you choose the soliloquy where Hamlet was contemplating suicide?

bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Post 18: In case of death post: No scum reads. Lampshades that she didn't tunnel. Says she'll move me down my list despite being at the bottom already.


DethStalker was at the bottom. And my reasons for moving you down were for not unvoting, which you later explained as the forums were down at the time you set aside to play (see above). Remember?


I'm not sure what you're getting at. You didn't know at the time that I wouldn't be around to post.

bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Post 6: Claims she isn't as townie as people think. Not much else.


Not true. I claimed (correctly) that I was not at the top of everyone’s town list. Oh I see what happened now, I just reread Sabrar’s remark and see that I interpreted it wrong. Now I understand why he did this odd calculation.


And? Why does Town!bessie care about whether or not you're at the top of everyone's list? How does this entire tangent help town? If people are correctly reading you as town, that's a good thing, and not something you should be worried about.

bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:It's hard to know even where to start with this. If it weren't for SDK throwing you a lifeline in his first post, I daresay you ought to have been lynched last night.


So are you agreeing with me, that SDK’s confirmed town claim on me shouldn’t have been so easily accepted as proof of my towniness?


Given that I'm casing you as scum, I would think that would be obvious. But frankly, I think you're far too concerned with how other people are reading you. This is a great way to dump wine and active lurk, but doesn't actually help us find scum.

bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:From this read, I think bessie is almost certainly scum, and most likely aligned with DethStalker.


Why? Because I tried to help him out? I wasn’t the only one. And this isn’t the only game I have tried to help out a newbie that didn’t understand what they signed up for. Perhaps you need to reread Diablo (other examples can be provided if needed, Wheel of Time 1, Matrix 6 Newbie Redux, etc).


It's not that you tried to help him out. It's the manner in which you were trying to help him out, as well as the commentary surrounding him. That reminds me. Given that you were reading him as your scummiest read, and were worried enough about scum manipulating the lynch that you moved my vote off of BoomFrog, why didn't you vote?

bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:The bulk of bessie's posts are vacuous, transparently so.


I take offence to this too, but I’ve got to go to work, so maybe later. I would have preferred to make this post after we heard from SDK, but by the time he gets back there will be less than a day before deadline, and there won’t be opportunity for extended discussion with him.


Interesting also that despite claiming people shouldn't be evaluating your content based on SDK's claim about you, your instinct was to wait for him to come around and defend you.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby BoomFrog » Tue May 23, 2017 12:52 am UTC

@GoP: What's your opinion of Bard?
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby Madge » Tue May 23, 2017 12:53 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:In that quoted post from Hamlet, what did you mean when you were saying that you couldn't play against your wincon? Why did you choose the soliloquy where Hamlet was contemplating suicide?


Not being my post I can't confirm, but what I got from that post was that they were very impressed by the quality of BF's posts and wished they could do something so good. Playing against wincon was a reference to wanting to ignore whether BF was scummy or not because BF's posts were so enjoyable. I can relate because I'm enjoying dim's roleplaying, I don't want him to be scummy because then I'd end up with none of his entertaining posts in my life.

Sorry to just pop in to make that remark. I'm trying to keep more on top of this thread so that way I don't have a lot of catchup to do every 12 hours or so and then have all my observations be taken as copying others, but we'll see how that goes for me.

Bessie is really rubbing me the wrong way though. But I feel like there's probably scum lurking while everyone else gets stuck into each other (yeah i know hypocrisy). I'm not sure what to think about SDK's weird claim. I don't like that scum hasn't killed either of them.

Also whoever said 2-2 might not be fair on scum: I agree but I feel like having 3-2 would be less fair on the smaller scumteam, so I think N-2-2-1 with a nerfed SK (as I believe I proposed in my post), or something like a mini-cult (cult leader with only one acolyte max, if one dies the remaining can recruit another until a certain point in the game - don't recall if cults are a possibility here, but it's just an example), mafia traitor, or you know, lyncher.
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