Shakespeare Mafia III - Curtain Call

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Sabrar
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby Sabrar » Thu May 25, 2017 8:37 am UTC

EBWOP:
@LaserGuy: why do you accept blindly the RB claim?

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby Madge » Thu May 25, 2017 8:40 am UTC

If the only reason you're not going to lynch me today is because i'm sick, please don't let that stay your hand. i'd probably be posting more or less the same thing and YOLOSWAG's lackluster claim is the sort of thing i normally base my votes on.

not that i'm asking you to vote for me, but i'm kind of like, if that's what you really think, then friggin' post it.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby Gopher of Pern » Thu May 25, 2017 8:43 am UTC

Madge wrote:If the only reason you're not going to lynch me today is because i'm sick, please don't let that stay your hand. i'd probably be posting more or less the same thing and YOLOSWAG's lackluster claim is the sort of thing i normally base my votes on.

not that i'm asking you to vote for me, but i'm kind of like, if that's what you really think, then friggin' post it.

@bessie happy to answer traffic light question but traffic lights are different around the world so it probably won't apply to your local area


If I didn't have a stronger scum lean on other people, I would. You have simply been lurky all game, and now you are participating a bit more, I'm finding it off. I can chalk it down to your sickness, but 3 days of active lurky behaviour is too much.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby DGames | Bard » Thu May 25, 2017 8:52 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
DGames | Bard wrote:@Laserguy - My King! I'm not really a fan of Sir Yoloswag's play style; I can't say I get his suspicions of me this game because he hasn't really explained them to me. He kinda asserts himself in a way that isn't very transparent with his intentions, i.e. he says my posts are "disgusting," but he doesn't say what is "disgusting" about them. Another example that comes to mind is when he says I should be in the lynch pool, but doesn't really go in depth with the why. I'm not sure how he expects me to trust him in this type of situation. On that note, I wonder how he feels about me going for Gopher as a priority before putting him further on the chopping block.


Who in your mind do you see as probable scummates for YOLO? What about Gopher?


Hrmmm, if Yolo is scum, I'm not sure who his potential mates could be. If he's a part of guild scum, he was well distanced from his mate Dethstalker (albeit this was pretty simple to accomplish given that Dethstalker was an easy target). There are many players he is distanced from though, so he would have hid his tracks well at least. Obviously, anyone not voting for him in this situation could be his possible mate, even me! :3

If he's of the supernatural variant, I would have no idea. I'd have to analyze his relationships a bit more extensively. Oddly, I would still suggest GoP considering that GoP has fairly quickly thrown Yoloswag under the bus in the midst of what I felt was an amiable relationship between the two (Yolo suggested that he did not think GoP was a good play for the earlier day phase, for instance, which felt out of place. Conversely, GoP has returned the favor by voting for Yolo, which feels like an odd transiion).

I guess I kind of am tunneling GoP's slot, in a way. It's 1:45am, and admittedly, I have been really busy with some projects that are preventing me from really jumping headfirst into a reread. Urgh.

What do you think is the right path from here? Do you think I am just brutally wrong about GoP and should be voting for someone else/Yolo? I see your vote is on SDK; whom would you vote for in this situation assuming it was ultimately between yolo or GoP, or would you still push for SDK/Bessie?

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby Gopher of Pern » Thu May 25, 2017 8:58 am UTC

DGames | Bard wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:
DGames | Bard wrote:@Laserguy - My King! I'm not really a fan of Sir Yoloswag's play style; I can't say I get his suspicions of me this game because he hasn't really explained them to me. He kinda asserts himself in a way that isn't very transparent with his intentions, i.e. he says my posts are "disgusting," but he doesn't say what is "disgusting" about them. Another example that comes to mind is when he says I should be in the lynch pool, but doesn't really go in depth with the why. I'm not sure how he expects me to trust him in this type of situation. On that note, I wonder how he feels about me going for Gopher as a priority before putting him further on the chopping block.


Who in your mind do you see as probable scummates for YOLO? What about Gopher?


Hrmmm, if Yolo is scum, I'm not sure who his potential mates could be. If he's a part of guild scum, he was well distanced from his mate Dethstalker (albeit this was pretty simple to accomplish given that Dethstalker was an easy target). There are many players he is distanced from though, so he would have hid his tracks well at least. Obviously, anyone not voting for him in this situation could be his possible mate, even me! :3

If he's of the supernatural variant, I would have no idea. I'd have to analyze his relationships a bit more extensively. Oddly, I would still suggest GoP considering that GoP has fairly quickly thrown Yoloswag under the bus in the midst of what I felt was an amiable relationship between the two (Yolo suggested that he did not think GoP was a good play for the earlier day phase, for instance, which felt out of place. Conversely, GoP has returned the favor by voting for Yolo, which feels like an odd transiion).

I guess I kind of am tunneling GoP's slot, in a way. It's 1:45am, and admittedly, I have been really busy with some projects that are preventing me from really jumping headfirst into a reread. Urgh.

What do you think is the right path from here? Do you think I am just brutally wrong about GoP and should be voting for someone else/Yolo? I see your vote is on SDK; whom would you vote for in this situation assuming it was ultimately between yolo or GoP, or would you still push for SDK/Bessie?


Note that when I voted, it was 3 votes apiece. Am I supposed to let that slide, and let myself be possibly lynched, when I know I am town, or put a vote on someone else, who may be town?
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby LaserGuy » Thu May 25, 2017 9:13 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:EBWOP:
@LaserGuy: why do you accept blindly the RB claim?


I'm not. But I do think it's worth considering the implications of such a claim.

DGames | Bard wrote:What do you think is the right path from here? Do you think I am just brutally wrong about GoP and should be voting for someone else/Yolo? I see your vote is on SDK; whom would you vote for in this situation assuming it was ultimately between yolo or GoP, or would you still push for SDK/Bessie?


I don't know that you are necessarily wrong. I'm just trying to figure out what you're thinking. I do think it's fairly likely that at least one of those two wagons is on a townie. Ideally, I'd like to figure out which one.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby plytho » Thu May 25, 2017 10:20 am UTC

I'm rereading my posts and I'm realising I haven't been pushing Gopher as much as I think I was. I've asked some questions about things he did that seemed fishy but didn't get any response.

Gopher of Pern wrote:I know I can come across as a bit scummy, but I refuse to believe that 3 town players would pick me as scum. So I'm looking at SirGabriel, plytho and Bard. From my feelings, I do feel Bard is a bit misguided, but they have tunnelled hard on me. I have a theory regarding them, but I would prefer to share it the next day, as revealing it now would be counter-productive. SirGabriel and plytho I'm less sure about. They've posted enough to get by, but they have been fairly quiet. I'm going to have to look more into them.

I agree that SirGabriel has been quiet, but I have almost twice as many posts as you. Perhaps you're not reading all my posts? Like the ones where I point out inconsistencies in your reasoning/defense?

For example, in my first reads list I point out that you first asked
Gopher of Pern wrote:The fun will be in voting mechanics. So I think it would be a good idea if anyone who knows their own abilities to change votes, should declare them early, so town can compensate for them. Scum may be able to manipulate them as well, but as the lynch is town's best (maybe only) way to kill scum, more open information about it would be better.

Since you're saying "the fun will be in voting mechanics, you're aware of the bit at the end of game specific rule 12 (there will be a lot of vote manipulation)
When pushed on it you continued with:
Gopher of Pern wrote:I don't deny that it could help scum. But it could help town more. After all, if scum go after the people who have vote manipulations, it leaves the docs/cops/vigs alive.


Before you backtrack and say:
Gopher of Pern wrote:My comment about the vote mechanics was mainly about the one or two visible vote manipulations: dethstalker having an extra vote on them, and bessie having an automatic vote on me.

Since you're aware of more vote manipulation being in play, if you really were talking about just the two visible ones I'd expect you to say so immediately or, at the very least, in the following post. Instead you wait until you're pushed again to say it's only about those two. There's a big difference between "anyone who knows their own abillities to change votes" and "I want to know about those two specific vote manipulations". And I'm not buying it. I pointed that out in my first reads post and you didn't respond to it then.

I also didn't get a response to this post. Except maybe this:
Gopher of Pern wrote:Since some people are hounding me on dethstalker; I think the way dethstalker finished the day was perfect from his point of view. He said nothing of import, so there's no reads of his to look into. Both town and scum had good reasons to lynch them. When I said it would be most informative, I assumed at that stage they would start contributing.


But I don't see how one could make that assumption. DethStalker didn't give the impression he'd start contributing more or better. Gopher supposedly expected Dethstalker to start contributing with about a day and a half left in D1.

I realise I should have been pushing these points harder earlier.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby plytho » Thu May 25, 2017 10:39 am UTC

Madge wrote:If the only reason you're not going to lynch me today is because i'm sick, please don't let that stay your hand. i'd probably be posting more or less the same thing and YOLOSWAG's lackluster claim is the sort of thing i normally base my votes on.

not that i'm asking you to vote for me, but i'm kind of like, if that's what you really think, then friggin' post it.

My read on Gopher is stronger than my read on you but if you're alive tomorrow and he's not you're my first target for the lynch.
Madge wrote:@bessie happy to answer traffic light question but traffic lights are different around the world so it probably won't apply to your local area

I replied in Gojoe.


I'll be out barbecueing this afternoon (it's 12:30 here now) so I might not be attentive around deadline. I'll be reading along on my phone so I'll be able to answer questions.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby Gopher of Pern » Thu May 25, 2017 10:42 am UTC

A reread of plytho:

Day 1 started off kinda neutral, just asking a few setup questions. Then their first reads list, which I disagree with, but seems okish. Then there is a big disagreement on dethstalker. I can get where they were coming from with that. And they ended up right, and I was wrong.

Day 2 plytho seems ok, aside from wanting me lynched. I doubt they would have been scum with dethstalker. They seem to be able to be swayed easily by others though, which can be a bit worrying. They have posted a lot more than I remember though. Mostly helpful stuff now that I have re read it.

Conclusion (before I read the latest post): Probably town, definitely not on dethstalkers team.

Now to reply to the post made while I was writing:

Re: vote manipulation. Yes, I wanted to know what votes were on. I changed my mind, and didn't explain myself well. I was talking about obvious ones, like dethstalkers, bessie's, laserguys and dimochka's; vote manipulations that don't hurt town. Really, whats the difference between knowing what they are now, to knowing what they were then? It would have got that discussion out of the way early. Plus, I wanted to see people's reasons for wanting / not wanting to know people's vote powers. I was also under the mistaken assumption of everyone having powers. Thank you for making me point that out, by the way.

Re: dethstalker, why can't I make that assumption? That's how most people who play this game play, especially newbies.

If that's your only two points against me, I have no idea why you think I'm scum. You think I'm scum because I provided a counterpoint to the dethstalker lynch (You said you like counter-points), and because I generated some claim discussion (however misguided you think I was)? There have been plenty more scummy things done in this game.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby Gopher of Pern » Thu May 25, 2017 10:45 am UTC

Going to bed now, so I probably wont be able to reply for the rest of the day.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby Sabrar » Thu May 25, 2017 10:53 am UTC

Gopher of Pern wrote:So, if we lynch SDK, and SDK is scum, we have no idea about bessie, but if SDK is town, we know bessie is town.
If we lynch bessie, and bessie is town, we have no idea about SDK, but if bessie is scum, we know SDK is scum.

Why would lynching SDK be the better option? If he's scum, yay, but we have no additional information. If he's town, bessie is town, but likely gets killed off by scum, because she will be confirmed town. If we lynch bessie, and she is scum, we have another scum ready to lynch. If she is town, it's just a mislynch, but says nothing to SDK, so if he is town, he might still be alive to help us.

This is faulty reasoning due to incompleteness. You do not take into account the impact of having 2 scum-teams.
For example: there is at least 1 scum-team out there who doesn't know SDK's alignment. If we lynch SDK they might decide to kill bessie because they fear a confirmed town. However if SDK-bessie were in the same scum-team that's a huge win for us.
Going into details about all of the scenarios would be too time-consuming and a bit pointless so close to the end of the day (ninja: also with you going to bed), but you're not looking at the whole picture. Perhaps you should rehearse your lines anew before the performance.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby plytho » Thu May 25, 2017 12:10 pm UTC

Gopher of Pern wrote:If that's your only two points against me, I have no idea why you think I'm scum. You think I'm scum because I provided a counterpoint to the dethstalker lynch (You said you like counter-points), and because I generated some claim discussion (however misguided you think I was)? There have been plenty more scummy things done in this game.

No, that's not why I think you're scum. I think I made myself clear but I'm not sure anymore. Is Gopher the only one that doesn't get what I mean or does nobody else understand why I find him scummy?

Unrelated: I thought Gophers 'Central Coast, Australia' location was a reference to the Australian central desert (like Alice Springs or something), but apparently it's an actual place :)
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby Sabrar » Thu May 25, 2017 12:41 pm UTC

You bring up those two points in your first read-list. I'm biased as hell but I think you might be misinterpreting Gopher's query about voting related powers in the same way you misinterpreted Sabrar1.0's push for lynching DethStalker for mechanical reasons.
You seem to back down on the town-read of DethStalker.
You bring up a new issue here. On a (renewed) first glance I think you have a valid point here, Gopher appears to be inconsistent.
No new points in these two posts where you end up voting him (and in-between you don't talk about him at all). This seems lazy (especially given the next link).
Finally you want to push him further by returning to previous points.

Overall your case seems to stand on (mostly) weak legs, though there are a couple of good points there as well. Could be scum-on-scum given the setup.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Thu May 25, 2017 12:43 pm UTC

@mpolo

Can you give a specific time?

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby Sabrar » Thu May 25, 2017 1:35 pm UTC

Most likely won't be around from 3pm UTC, might come back just before nightfall (depending on when mpolo calls it).

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby kalira » Thu May 25, 2017 1:53 pm UTC

Gopher of Pern wrote:Why didn't you put me in the same camp as dimochka, Boomfrog, and Madge, when I had Sabrar at the top of my town list as well?


Simply that I missed it. I first noticed it in dim's list, so I wrote up the paragraph. But then I saw it in someone else's list as well, so I decided I was just going to start adding names to that paragraph as I found lists with SabrarV1.0 at the top. I must have missed it in your list, or I would've added your name, too. I just don't think people should give him that much benefit of the doubt on D1 -- he's too squirrelly for that.

Writing up stuff on D2, but since I'm seeing mpolo is not sure when he will end Day and I'm not sure of the exact time frame, I'm willing to

vote YOLOswag

based on my read of him D1 and his weirdness that I've read through on D2. I definitely see him as more scummy than GoP right now.

I originally had that bolded as an official vote, but then I realized that would put YOLO at L-1 and I don't want shenanigans to end Day early.

I will officially vote closer to Day end because I want to separate the wagon numbers a bit more than they are already. If YOLO switches his vote to GoP, that would put the wagons within 1 of each other, which is a little close for comfort esp if scum!YOLO's scummate(s) aren't already on GoP's wagon (also presuming GoP is not scum!YOLO's scummate, of course), or plus who knows what sort of voting shenanigans could be bandied about at Day end.

For the record, Sabrar, I disagree with you about "everyone needs to be on one of the two wagons." I understand you think scum can hide by avoiding them, but there could also just be town who just don't see what the wagoneers see. Also, the fact that there appear to be two scum factions makes wagon analysis a little funky anyway. If people are voting off the wagons for no explained/good reason, however, absolutely they should come back and explain their votes well and at least comment on the wagons for future analysis.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby mpolo » Thu May 25, 2017 2:01 pm UTC

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:@mpolo

Can you give a specific time?


How about this? About 5 hours from now.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby Sabrar » Thu May 25, 2017 2:12 pm UTC

I'm just going to repeat myself
kalira wrote:If people are voting off the wagons for no explained/good reason, however, absolutely they should come back and explain their votes well and at least comment on the wagons for future analysis.

Sabrar wrote:@LaserGuy: we have two wagons. Your vote on SDK won't tell us anything. Please switch to Gopher of Pern or YOLOSWAG or explain why you don't want to.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby kalira » Thu May 25, 2017 2:44 pm UTC

I conflated your two posts about voting on wagon. The second:

Sabrar wrote:
bessie wrote:Why is it important that everyone be on one of the two wagons?
Because wagons will get analyzed to death later and it is convenient for scum to stay away from them.

Suppose Madge doesn't make that follow-up post. She votes for SirGabriel but notes that YOLOSWAG would be second. Things accomplished if she's scum:
- has a vote down at the end of the day
- no need to fret that SirGabriel will flip Town as he is probably not getting lynched today
- avoids building up wagon on scum-buddy, hoping that events will turn the tide. Can change to counter-wagon later if needed.
- in case YOLOSWAG is Town attention won't be on her

Of course all of the above became null with the EBWOP.


In this situation, Madge appears to have done what you seem to be suggesting and commented on the wagon/said why she doesn't want to be on it, but in this second post, you say that's not enough.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby Sabrar » Thu May 25, 2017 2:56 pm UTC

That was a convenient example that was at hand. Because it became null immediately afterwards I didn't need to consider Madge's reasoning to show what I mean, just noted the fact that she voted off-wagon.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby dimochka » Thu May 25, 2017 3:15 pm UTC

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:That said, I'm going to point out that I wouldn't have roleblocked AND killed jimbob.

Yeah, I could be part of the other team, but I want to note that disconnect. I can prove my power if y'all leave me be.

I agree with this, but only insomuch as to mention that I don't think you are part of the supernatural team. If anything, D1 tells me that you would be part of the regular team (if you're scum altogether, that is).

BoomFrog wrote:town!YOLO: Shakespeare is fun, thee thou forthwith! blah blah blah, swag vote for pressure. Wow dude's crumbling. SDK presents madge, sounds ligit, but I like my gut read better. Dude's scum. D2, blah blah too much flavor. Shakespear's confusing. Lynch flipped scum lets lynch the off-wagoners. Oh right there's two scum teams, whatever. Blah blah, I'm not reading all that. OH shit I'm on the block, YOLO mode activated.

Guild!YOLO: Shakespeare is fun, thee thou forthwith! ugg, I'm mates with plytho and dethstalker, w/e I can win this solo. SWAG vote stalker, put some distance between us. Wow, dude's crumbling, w/e better just let it ride. SDK proposes madge, no I can't lose my credit here. Dude just roll over and die for me. Night chat: plytho just do what your doing we got this. Kill sabrar because they'll focus JimBob. D2 alright, JimBob's dead, go after the off-wagon. Oh right, the other scum team.

Okay yeah, that second scenario doesn't make sense. Guild YOLO would have noticed the second kill in flavor if he was killing sabrar to push the jimbob angle. YOLO clearly didn't read the D2 start flavor. Okay, actually, I just convinced myself back. YOLO didn't read the D2 start flavor but did know that dethstalker was scum. He was planning his reaction during the night and just posted that without wading through the shakespear flavor. I don't know why he killed Sabrar but his brain fart on the second scum team makes sense now.

I literally have no clue how you reached those conclusions. Can someone explain? I think it aligns with what I'm thinking, but I just don't see how BF got there.

Sabrar wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Fine. One question for you first. Which scumteam do you think YOLO is on?
I think he is buddies with DethStalker. Just a hunch.

Yes, agree, exactly.

What else... I think laserguy is tunnelling on bessie. I don't see it. Actually I see part of it - scum bessie would probably take advantage of the town label that was tossed onto her. But I don't see anything else that would indicate scum.
I think that Yolo is more likely scum than GoP, but GoP is a possible scumbuddy. However, I disagree with Plytho, I think, about them being supernatural. I think, if anything, one or both are Guild.

I don't want to put Yolo at L-1, but otherwise I'd be voting for him.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby BoomFrog » Thu May 25, 2017 3:22 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:And why do you think the roleblocker would be on the same team as the person with roleblock immunity?

@BoomFrog, same question.

Good morning. Catching up but I'll reply to this before I finish reading the rest. RB is likely to be a duplicated role. Unless madge is lying we have another RBer. Also powers were assigned randomly which people seem to be forgetting. Unlike Sabrar I believe YOLO is actually a RBer, he was too eager to claim he could prove it.

@GoP: You raise an interesting point. When I have more time I'll lay out the logic carefully.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby kalira » Thu May 25, 2017 3:44 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:And why do you think the roleblocker would be on the same team as the person with roleblock immunity?


I realize you asked this question to Sabrar and BF, but you're ignoring or not thinking about the setup.

From the OP (emphasis mine):
"The roles you have received are completely randomized, as are the powers. The groupings of factions were also completely randomized, though some powers were guaranteed to go with a certain faction. As a result, I have not provided "safe claims". Some powers may be duplicated, or be copied as a one-shot version of the same power."

Asking why certain powers would "go with" each other doesn't work in this game because the mod specifically told us that everything was randomized, and he also told us there were possible duplicate powers. "Some powers... guaranteed to go with a certain faction" I read more as powers like Strongman or Ninja, which can't be town, rather than situations like "roleblocker and roleblock-immune must be on different factions." You can argue balance, but it wouldn't be the first time on this board a team has randomly been assigned powers that in the end were useless. Of course, that presumes that YOLO's claim is true, which we don't know until he flips, because it is fairly difficult to "prove" RB (I'm tempted to say impossible simply because I can't think of a non-manipulatable[?] way to do it, but as soon as I do someone will think one up).
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Postby SDK » Thu May 25, 2017 3:57 pm UTC

plytho wrote:
SDK wrote:
On the flip side, plytho first interacts with YOLOSWAG in the beginning of Day 2 asking him two questions that went unanswered. plytho did not follow up, and this doesn't seem to have changed plytho's read - plytho calls him town based on Day 1 content (though Day 1 plytho called YOLO "hard to read", which got upgraded Day 2 to "active scumhunting").
False, YOLOSWAG did answer those questions in his next post, here.

Indeed, my mistake.

plytho wrote:
SDK wrote:Despite all this, plytho does not get involved with discussion on YOLO at all, except when he comes to defend him. Interaction alone points strongly to these two being buddies.
I was not defending YOLOSWAG in that post. I was trying to figure out BoomFrog's reasoning. At that point he had a reads list without scum, which I was concerned about. Then he voted for yolo seemingly based on Sabrar's comments on him, so I asked him about it.

Yes, that could be true. The way its written though feels a lot more like you're driving in a dagger instead of feeling out a read.

plytho wrote:
SDK wrote:As for plytho himself, he focuses on some interesting things Day 1. He talks briefly about my confirmation of Bessie, saying that it's weird for me to assuming Sabrar had the same thing in his role PM, but then never mentions it again. What he does talk a lot about is DethStalker's hated vote. That's basically it - plytho does zero hunting between his first post right up until asking for an extension. It's interesting that he's so focused on that vote, that particular mechanical discussion. Is this our three-man mafia team?

Well, I was quite busy the first couple of days and that vote (the nature of it and Sabrar's policy lynch proposal) was something I could talk about without doing any deep thinking. When I asked for an extension I was writing my reads post (which does require deep thinking, at least for me).

When I write my big posts, it usually takes me 2 to 3 hours. You are not alone there.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby SDK » Thu May 25, 2017 4:01 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
SDK wrote:LaserGuy, this is from your first post of Day 2. Why did you think this was important?


I wasn't sure if it was, but I wanted to highlight it in case it became important later. At this point, I think on the whole it's probably unimportant.

Can you give an example of a likely scenario where you thought it might become important? I don't see what it has to do with anything.

LaserGuy wrote:
SDK wrote:Supernatural doesn't mean human with magical abilities. From conversation with mpolo, it sounds like they're monsters, or at least non-human. Pretty sure that any town would have investigated as not supernatural unless they were a monster themselves somehow.


Was this via PM? I don't remember this coming up at all.

Yes.

LaserGuy wrote:
SDK wrote:3. I didn't think there were two scum teams, I thought it was more likely there was an SK. I'm still not 100% convinced we have two teams.


What do you think the setup looks like then? Above, you're talking about monsters, in the plural, and believe that they're scum-aligned in some way. DethStalker's role PM indicates that he had nightchat with one or more people.

The guild definitely is a team, I suspect with three members. After jimbob's flip, I think it's more likely than not that there is a second team, likely with two members, but a supernatural SK remains possible.


LaserGuy, in a previous post you tried to link a past case you made on Gopher of Pern, but that link was broken. Could you please link it again?
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby SDK » Thu May 25, 2017 4:26 pm UTC

@Bard, I asked you a question in my big post. Please answer it.

BoomFrog wrote:At the time SDK has said he was still fairly certain Bessie was town. He's back peddled more since then which really pings me, but that's a separate topic.

That's not true. I've backpedaled once. Explain.

BoomFrog wrote:If YOLO is town and I'm dead lynch SDK

no u

Actually probably Bard.

Madge wrote:Also, I just realised: since I made a claim, I should probably mention I targeted SDK last night, so it may be the case that SDK is untargetable or was jailed last night. SDK, feel free to confirm, deny, or ignore.

Uh huh.

Madge wrote:I think if we trust SDK we shouldn't lynch bessie. Whether we trust SDK is debatable. If he claims that his trust of Bessie is PM-related and not read related - and it seems he does - we should trust that.

Do you trust me?


Gopher of Pern wrote:Re: vote manipulation. Yes, I wanted to know what votes were on. I changed my mind, and didn't explain myself well. I was talking about obvious ones, like dethstalkers, bessie's, laserguys and dimochka's; vote manipulations that don't hurt town. Really, whats the difference between knowing what they are now, to knowing what they were then? It would have got that discussion out of the way early. Plus, I wanted to see people's reasons for wanting / not wanting to know people's vote powers. I was also under the mistaken assumption of everyone having powers. Thank you for making me point that out, by the way.

To anyone who thinks Gopher is scum because of his asking for voting powers thing: Please read this carefully and explain why this doesn't make perfect sense.


plytho wrote:Is Gopher the only one that doesn't get what I mean or does nobody else understand why I find him scummy?

Please do explain, because I don't get why anyone is on Gopher and I don't remember seeing a proper case (though it's possible it's been made and I forgot).
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Thu May 25, 2017 4:27 pm UTC

mpolo wrote:
#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:@mpolo

Can you give a specific time?


How about this? About 5 hours from now.
Thank you.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby LaserGuy » Thu May 25, 2017 4:41 pm UTC

SDK wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:
SDK wrote:LaserGuy, this is from your first post of Day 2. Why did you think this was important?


I wasn't sure if it was, but I wanted to highlight it in case it became important later. At this point, I think on the whole it's probably unimportant.


Can you give an example of a likely scenario where you thought it might become important? I don't see what it has to do with anything.


Off the top of my head, it could potentially cause issues at LYLO if both are alive and town, depending on what circumstances bessie can actually remove the vote, or how coordinated the scum team can manage to be. She obviously can remove the vote, so it's not as crippling of a problem as DethStalker's trait would have been if he had been town under similar circumstances.

SDK wrote:LaserGuy, in a previous post you tried to link a past case you made on Gopher of Pern, but that link was broken. Could you please link it again?


It's at the bottom of this post. Here it is in full:
LaserGuy wrote:I dislike his early suggestion about claiming vote manipulation powers, though on the whole, I think this is the kind of mistake that Town!Gopher could well have made (as did jimbob). More troubling to me is his aggression toward BoomFrog, which I think is mostly unjustified, particularly as I suspect BoomFrog is likely town. As far as you [bessie] are concerned, I think he's focusing on the wrong aspect of your behaviour. The problem isn't that you're overly defensive about being called town; the problem is that entire argument is specious. You shouldn't be arguing about how townie people think you are because it isn't relevant to the task of finding scum.

On content, looks somewhat scummy. On meta, a number of players who I feel have good reads on Gopher seem to think he's probably okay. Gut feeling is he'd probably fall on the scummy side of neutral. I'll try to get to a full reread of everyone tomorrow and have a more concrete town-to-scum list.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby LaserGuy » Thu May 25, 2017 4:45 pm UTC

EBWOP:

I'm going to keep my vote where it is. I'm curious to see what YOLO has to say and would prefer not to hammer before that point. I am also somewhat skeptical of Sabrar's motives to push everyone on to one of the two main wagons.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby bessie » Thu May 25, 2017 4:55 pm UTC

Gopher of Pern wrote:If we lynch bessie, and she is scum, we have another scum ready to lynch. If she is town, it's just a mislynch, but says nothing to SDK, so if he is town, he might still be alive to help us.

Gee thanks for the vote of confidence.

Gopher of Pern wrote:Re: vote manipulation. Yes, I wanted to know what votes were on. I changed my mind, and didn't explain myself well. I was talking about obvious ones, like dethstalkers, bessie's, laserguys and dimochka's; vote manipulations that don't hurt town. Really, whats the difference between knowing what they are now, to knowing what they were then? It would have got that discussion out of the way early. Plus, I wanted to see people's reasons for wanting / not wanting to know people's vote powers. I was also under the mistaken assumption of everyone having powers. Thank you for making me point that out, by the way.

It’s been pointed out before. Here.
Sabrar wrote:Based on how the mod described the setup I would assume that everyone has a posting restriction and a vote-related ability/restriction. Some might not be as obvious as others.
Plytho contradicts him in the next post.

Gopher of Pern wrote:Bessie, your scummy reads seem to be a bit OMGUS. Do you actually believe myself and laserguy to be scummy? Why?

Here's why I think LaserGuy is scum. Because it seems to me like he is trying to act townie. I’ve been thinking about something that Boomfrog said in the last game about newbie scum having trouble acting townie because they lack experience. If LaserGuy is scum, he’s never been town. And in this game he doesn’t have SDK to coach him in day chat. What first gave me the real feeling that LaserGuy was trying to act townie was when I was doing my read of Gopher of Pern and I sorted his posts and extracted all the comments about me. Lined up like that, they read like LaserGuy’s bessie is scum and bessie is scum V2 posts. Gopher of Pern was the player that had the most suspicion on me, it seemed like LaserGuy took all his reads on me and used them to make his own read.

This next bit will probably be used against me as a sure scum tell, but what the heck, I can be night killed so I need to get all my thoughts out there. I think that LaserGuy is trying to act like me. Everyone knows I have a townie meta. This part is not wine. It’s been going on for so long that it’s turned into a joke. I went on about it here a year and a half ago. (Note: Found this. Here’s a post from that game where I tried to help out a newbie.) I’m notorious for tunneling. Always have been. No link this time, read any game. Anyway, what he’s doing to me this game is a lot like what I did to Carlington in Diablo. I hammered on him mercilessly. I made lists of his post times and the gaps. I analyzed every word he said. Even LaserGuy commented on it in that game. There’s also the odd thing that he is finding scum tells that he applies only to me.
LaserGuy wrote: You've had time to do setup speculation
I’m not the only one to do setup speculation on D2.
LaserGuy wrote: read the entrails of the dead
So are dimochka and kalira scum for this too?
LaserGuy wrote:compose this,
That wasn’t even that good and mostly copied, so surely BoomFrog is scummier because his was all original.
LaserGuy wrote: complain about how everyone is reading you unfairly as town
Ok score one for you.
LaserGuy wrote: and talk about the bar scene
Hmm, who else has made friendly RL banter? Madge, plytho, SDK, hell Bard even told us what he had for dinner one night.
LaserGuy wrote: Instead of doing player analysis, you settled on a lot of active lurking.
I’m being accused of active lurking by a guy that demands I comment on my mental state on May 14 and May 20?

I think that LaserGuy’s trying to copy my townie tunneling aspect, and he’s playing the part of a townie using a townie as a model and he didn’t realize he was taking it too far until the last post linked above, when he backed off. Ok, yes, I must be wrong because I think everything is all about me me me. Flame away.

I won’t be here at deadline. Sabrar, sometimes you can still analyze a vote that’s not on a wagon.

Vote: LaserGuy

Ninja'd by LaserGuy, sorry for moving your vote.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby kalira » Thu May 25, 2017 4:56 pm UTC

LaserGuy seems to acknowledge Bard’s information about him but claims no information on his side about Bard. So, another one-sided info situation, which appears to be related to their Shakespearean character roles. If both Bard and LG are scum, I don’t think they are on opposing teams (else LG could have called out Bard and gotten one of his enemies destroyed) – unless of course that whole bit where scum!LG was flicking the lights for the other scum to work with his scumteam was actually a thing. LaserGuy, what are your thoughts on Bard without taking in mind that he is defending you? Your initial reaction to SDK’s reveal of his one-sided info was “I find SDK's assertion of bessie to be town to be most alarming, as it will require some heroic effort to keep her alive if this claim is true.” You don’t seem terribly alarmed at Bard’s revealing yourself.

Later in D1 you say
I feel that there is virtually no circumstance under which Town!SDK would make such a statement about a confirmed townie at this point in the game. Were you in danger of the lynch, I can imagine him putting such a claim forward, but at this point in time, it only benefits scum to know that there is a confirmed townie in the game, and who that person is--doubly so if there are two scum teams in opposition to each other. This essentially, in my mind, puts SDK in the pool of scum/anti-town indies, or perhaps, at very best, a townie with an extremely scummy wincon, as he seemed to be suggesting. I suppose I must add that there is some non-trivial possibility that SDK simply invented this information, but in many respects I would consider this an even more anti-town play than revealing the truth. In any event, this disclosure does not paint SDK in a good light whatsoever.

Again, you don’t seem to have a similar reaction to Bard’s saying you shouldn’t be lynched – why? You weren’t in a runaway wagon for the lynch at the time he said that.

Possibly important: now that I think of it, Bard doesn’t actually say we shouldn’t lynch LG because he is town there; he just says he has “good reasons” not to lynch LG. He only later puts himself and LG in a “town bros” category together. Not sure if that is important or not, just wanted to note it.

Ninja'd by bessie: will read in a bit.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Thu May 25, 2017 4:59 pm UTC

Assuming we're playing with plurality. Skimmed a bit and grabbing lunch, then reading through again when I come back and making a post.

It's cutting it close and will be right up until deadline but I WILL get it out there so please don't hammer.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby BoomFrog » Thu May 25, 2017 5:02 pm UTC

dimochka wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:town!YOLO: Shakespeare is fun, thee thou forthwith! blah blah blah, swag vote for pressure. Wow dude's crumbling. SDK presents madge, sounds ligit, but I like my gut read better. Dude's scum. D2, blah blah too much flavor. Shakespear's confusing. Lynch flipped scum lets lynch the off-wagoners. Oh right there's two scum teams, whatever. Blah blah, I'm not reading all that. OH shit I'm on the block, YOLO mode activated.

Guild!YOLO: Shakespeare is fun, thee thou forthwith! ugg, I'm mates with plytho and dethstalker, w/e I can win this solo. SWAG vote stalker, put some distance between us. Wow, dude's crumbling, w/e better just let it ride. SDK proposes madge, no I can't lose my credit here. Dude just roll over and die for me. Night chat: plytho just do what your doing we got this. Kill sabrar because they'll focus JimBob. D2 alright, JimBob's dead, go after the off-wagon. Oh right, the other scum team.

Okay yeah, that second scenario doesn't make sense. Guild YOLO would have noticed the second kill in flavor if he was killing sabrar to push the jimbob angle. YOLO clearly didn't read the D2 start flavor. Okay, actually, I just convinced myself back. YOLO didn't read the D2 start flavor but did know that dethstalker was scum. He was planning his reaction during the night and just posted that without wading through the shakespear flavor. I don't know why he killed Sabrar but his brain fart on the second scum team makes sense now.

I literally have no clue how you reached those conclusions. Can someone explain? I think it aligns with what I'm thinking, but I just don't see how BF got there.
I'm not sure which part you don't get but I would summarize that stream of consciousness as: The only way I can imagine YOLO forgetting there are two scum teams is if he didn't read opening flavor. If he didn't read flavor but did know that Dethstalker was scum then he must be stalkers buddy.

@YOLO: No one's going to hammer. SDK already voted :P
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby SDK » Thu May 25, 2017 5:10 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:@YOLO: No one's going to hammer. SDK already voted :P

D'oh! :lol:
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Postby SDK » Thu May 25, 2017 5:23 pm UTC

DGames | Bard wrote:In any event, something rubs me the wrong way about the bessie confirmation, as well as the votes at the beginning of the day phase! Forgive me, as I am new here, and so I am still ascertaining the qualities of this stage; where art thy proof of Bessie's innocence? And, can we assume that there are at least 2 forms of vote manipulation at play?

If the few fine individuals of this act that are implying that Bessie is Town based on evidence that Bessie is being voted for at day start by aforementioned nefarious forces, isn't it possible that a scum aligned role targeted another scum aligned role? The flavor seems to imply that there may be two scum factions, but I'm not sure how frequently this sort of thing transpires. Perhaps a more seasoned veteran can offer their wisdom on this matter.

You've stated previously that my confirmation of bessie "rubbed you the wrong way" because you didn't see why I would reveal it so early. That doesn't jive well with the bolded, though. You didn't even understand why Bessie was confirmed. If LaserGuy is mentioned in your role PM as Bessie is in mine, I don't understand how you could have failed to understand what was going on here.

I think I might push you to fully claim exactly how LaserGuy is confirmed for you. That can wait until Day 3 though.


Bard, one thing I noticed going through Day 1 is that you had zero town reads. You called out Gopher, Dethstalker and the lurkers as people who had caught your attention, but never once seemed to consider anyone town, or engage with someone as if you thought they were town (other than LaserGuy). Why is that? Did you have any town reads?

You also didn't really engage with anyone as if they were scum, other than Gopher. You asked a few questions, but they were mostly asking thoughts on others' reads rather than trying to feel out reads for yourself. What do you look at when you're trying to decide if someone is scum? How were you feeling at the end of Day 1 as far as how the game was going?


Day 2, you posts a reads list, which was helpful. Even more helpful is a quick description of why you feel that way about each player, but if that's too much to ask I'll settle for more detail on Gopher, BoomFrog, YOLOSWAG, SirGabriel and plytho. Gopher in particular is a must considering you're voting for him, yet every time you mention him all you can say is that you need to reread him again.

DGames | Bard wrote:@Laserguy - My King! I'm not really a fan of Sir Yoloswag's play style; I can't say I get his suspicions of me this game because he hasn't really explained them to me. He kinda asserts himself in a way that isn't very transparent with his intentions, i.e. he says my posts are "disgusting," but he doesn't say what is "disgusting" about them. Another example that comes to mind is when he says I should be in the lynch pool, but doesn't really go in depth with the why. I'm not sure how he expects me to trust him in this type of situation. On that note, I wonder how he feels about me going for Gopher as a priority before putting him further on the chopping block.

You talk a lot here about what YOLO thinks of you, but nothing on what you think of him. I get that you were responding to a question, but you seem overly concerned with how you are perceived rather than the inverse. Why is that?

DGames | Bard wrote:What do you think is the right path from here? Do you think I am just brutally wrong about GoP and should be voting for someone else/Yolo? I see your vote is on SDK; whom would you vote for in this situation assuming it was ultimately between yolo or GoP, or would you still push for SDK/Bessie?

This is addressed to LaserGuy, so I assume you're talking to a townie here. Did you ask these questions to try to guide yourself to a conclusion with another townie's help? Are there any other townies you would feel comfortable working with?
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby kalira » Thu May 25, 2017 5:25 pm UTC

SDK wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:@YOLO: No one's going to hammer. SDK already voted :P

D'oh! :lol:


Have I missed something?

mpolo said he wasn't going to be on to close Day until 2-3 hours following original deadline. Given that we're at less than 2 hours left on the clock he provided YOLO, I'm guessing at this point we will be able to continue talking until that deadline, so, as promised

Vote YOLOswag

to hopefully prevent last minute shenanigans.

Unofficial votals with an hour and 35ish minutes remaining:
Gopher of Pern (3): SirGabriel, plytho, DGames | Bard
Sabrar (1): #HBC | YOLOSWAG
#HBC | YOLOSWAG (6): Sabrar, BoomFrog, SDK, Gopher of Pern, Madge, kalira
LaserGuy (1): bessie
bessie (1): LaserGuy

Including the autochange of vote for LaserGuy.

7 is hammer, but mpolo said we should act as normal unless we overhammer with like 9-10 votes. Presuming that means votes may change or are different in the background.
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby LaserGuy » Thu May 25, 2017 5:28 pm UTC

kalira wrote:LaserGuy, what are your thoughts on Bard without taking in mind that he is defending you? Your initial reaction to SDK’s reveal of his one-sided info was “I find SDK's assertion of bessie to be town to be most alarming, as it will require some heroic effort to keep her alive if this claim is true.” You don’t seem terribly alarmed at Bard’s revealing yourself.


In terms of the reveal, IMHO, the context is important. I do believe that there was a reasonable chance that had Bard not intervened, I would have been lynched D1, and Bard seemed to feel the same. So, I see what Bard did as more akin to a cop revealing an innocent result when it looks like the person they have that result on is going to be lynched. What SDK did is more akin to a cop claiming an innocent result at the start of the day under no pressure. The former case avoids a mislynch; the latter case reveals the identity of two townies to scum. Though we didn't know it at the time, given that this is a multiball game, this is also giving extra information to the scum teams to find each other out.

Setting that aside? Bard's play has been somewhat dubious. He has spent a lot of time focusing on Gopher and hasn't really looked at most other players, but all of his reads, including his one on Gopher, feel pretty superficial. When I prompted him here about his role PM, I had in mind that maybe he was some sort of lyncher for GoP. In the same post, when he's talking about why he's reading YOLO as scummy, his read is only in reference to what YOLO has done to him personally, which I find a little strange.

I don't think he's scum, because scum wouldn't have stuck their neck out for me in the way that he did. If there's indies in the game, he might be one. If not, I think he's probably lazy town.

Putting this back up.
Vote SDK

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby LaserGuy » Thu May 25, 2017 5:30 pm UTC

EBWOP:

kalira wrote:Have I missed something?


I think BoomFrog is referring to last game where SDK accidentally hammered Carlington on D2.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby SDK » Thu May 25, 2017 5:42 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:I think BoomFrog is referring to last game where SDK accidentally hammered Carlington on D2.

And then again on YOLOSWAG Day 3. Though that was no accident. :twisted:
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby DGames | Bard » Thu May 25, 2017 5:43 pm UTC

Well, I don't see the lynch swinging in any other direction, regardless of what Yolo posts, but I'll take any information I can get.

I think GoP is so much scummier; lots of focus on self preservation, isn't looking for scum with his vote.

I do understand the reasoning behind multiple votes on Yolo though. Albeit a comrade of DGames lore, I feel there isn't much else to do but see him off.

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