Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 3 - The Times They Are a-Changelin'

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Madge
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Madge » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:14 pm UTC

Votals:

ConMan - (1) - moody,
Moody - (1) - wam
Peaceful Whale - (3) - jimbob, bessie, LaserGuy
Wam - (1) - Peaceful whale


With 9 players alive, it is 5 to hammer.

Day 1 ends in 6 hours, 45 minutes


(I expect to be online at deadline so I'm likely to call it right away: Sabrar may also be able to do so.)
Last edited by Madge on Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:29 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby moody7277 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:20 pm UTC

Madge wrote:Votals:


Did you intend LaserGuy to have two votes down?
The story of my life in xkcdmafia:

Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:25 pm UTC

Okay, this will be my last post for the Day. I wouldn't be surprised if some of what Peaceful Whale has said is true (e.g. He might be scum or indie who gets a bonus if he kills the Vice President, thus acting as an anti-claim mechanism), but he has repeatedly failed to address his scum slip or various other content issues raised by others, so I'm not sure I buy him being nameless semi-vanilla townie.

I've got to go to bed now, and won't be up before deadline, and so my vote stands.
BlitzGirl the Primordial
matthewglen wrote:Cueball looks concerned.

Image

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Madge
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Madge » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:29 am UTC

moody7277 wrote:
Madge wrote:Votals:


Did you intend LaserGuy to have two votes down?


Nope, thanks for pointing that out. Fixed.
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:12 am UTC

Unvote

I think I believe that claim. This is better anyway.

Vote wam

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby bessie » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:22 am UTC

wam wrote: Is that a slip by Bessie as do scum have safe claims madge specifically said species etc don't line up with alignments.

I read through all the rules and there was no mention of safe claims.
No, it’s not a slip. Sabrar and I had a…hmmm… quite heated discussion during The Dark Tower over safe claims. He provided scum with complete town safe claims (name, flavor, power, everything). I…questioned as to why… Well, I would provide the link to the discussion in the Gojoe thread but since I probably (rightly) came off looking the worse out of it, if you want to see it find it yourself. :oops:

Hari Seldon wrote:Bessie, thank you for your answer. On unrelated notes, if you believe that Peaceful Whale is independent, would that not invalidate your point about his RVS post? Do you believe that lynching an Independent is as important as lynching a Mafia? What sort of information could you obtain from FoSing someone without a reason that you would not obtain if you had provided your reason? Was that actually your motivation behind FoSing Somitomi without a reason?

1. No, because if Peaceful Whale is independent (or mafia), he knows that I am not on his team.
2. Depends on the current state of the game. Most important is to hit scum. If I was certain of hitting mafia or indie, it would depend on the indie, the number of remaining mafia, etc. For our current situation, I believe the setup is 6-2-1. If I think the independent has a kill available, I would support lynching them to decrease the number of kills tonight, and also because it might be easier to find a two man scum team working together than two lone scum. If this was later in a large game, like D3, and we still suspected we had two mafia and an indie alive, lynching mafia might be better so that they couldn’t vote together, and by D4 there should be enough content to draw connections.
3. I guess it’s my style, sometimes I just like to I like to imply stuff and see if it goes anywhere. Like how I keep asking Peaceful Whale “What type of one shot indie were you thinking of that could put us at LYLO on D2?” instead of just asking “Are you a serial killer?” Sometimes I’m just wondering if anyone’s guilty conscience will draw any connections. I'm not saying this is the greatest or most correct way to play, I'm just saying it's me.

I still think it’s a little odd that everyone that joined in the night cycle discussion was considering mafia chat as the only factor deciding the length of the night. There are other things going on at night besides mafia chat. For example, there may be some townies that want to see the results of the lynch before they submit night actions, and we’re not all in Madge’s time zone.

Hari Seldon, why did you ask specifically me the question about Maven?

More in a bit. I'm still reading through today's content.

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Madge » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:24 am UTC

Votals:

ConMan - (1) - moody
Moody - (1) - wam
Peaceful Whale - (2) - jimbob, bessie
Wam - (2) - Peaceful whale, LaserGuy


Due to tie rules, if votes do not change before deadline, Peaceful Whale will be executed.

With 9 players alive, it is 5 to hammer.

Day 1 ends in 2 hours, 36 minutes


(I expect to be online at deadline so I'm likely to call it right away: Sabrar may also be able to do so.)
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby bessie » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:57 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Peaceful Whale wrote:@bessie, and indie with a one shot who believes they have found scum, and kill a townie can put us at LYLO.

This is suspiciously specific.
And still wrong. LaserGuy, do you think there is a role in this game that can put us in LYLO on D2?

Peaceful Whale wrote: I am “Werewolf Love interest” vanilla towny.

Basically it goes into depth about my abilities, it says I can turn into a werewolf to spy against other companies and walk undetected in a surprising number of places.

I think this is just flavor, as I cannot actually watch anyone, and can be investigated...

It says I love the receptionist. So I think if they die, I become a werewolf or something. I was kinda hoping that if they did die, I’d become an Indy(with a win con of killing whoever killer her) or something cool like that. I guess we’ll never know now though. I’ll ask Madge after the game.
How is this role vanilla? I believe there is some truth in this. But serious FoS on anyone that thinks Peaceful Whale currently has a town win condition.
bessie wrote: I think Peaceful Whale is an anti-town independent, and his role (and safeclaim) is somewhat similar to the role described by moody. If I had to make a wild ass guess, I would say that his win con is tied to the death of another player, and he gets something to help him achieve that win con if he fulfills some condition, like “you get a kill if you survive to D3”.


Peaceful Whale wrote: I don’t have the time, but my wagon went very easy becuase of the “scum slip”. Look at that, veteran players should have been a bit more cautious of lynching a player becuase of one word.
No. Read my analysis here. I don’t even analyze the “other scum games” slip. I actually don’t think it’s as strong of a slip as the other things in my post. If you are lynched today, it will not be solely because of one misplaced word.

Peaceful Whale wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if some of what Peaceful Whale has said is true (e.g. He might be scum or indie who gets a bonus if he kills the Vice President, thus acting as an anti-claim mechanism), but he has repeatedly failed to address his scum slip or various other content issues raised by others, so I'm not sure I buy him being nameless semi-vanilla townie.
Why not? What are your reasons for not believing his claims to be a nameless semi-vanilla townie?

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Hari Seldon » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:10 am UTC

Bessie, how were you able to predict Peaceful Whale's role? I asked you about Maven, because I believed that you were the most likely candidate for his partner at the time. Based on your response, I do not suspect that any longer.

It is possible that Bessie and Peaceful Whale have similar roles and perhaps have to kill each other in order to win the receptionist's heart.

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:16 am UTC

bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:
Peaceful Whale wrote:@bessie, and indie with a one shot who believes they have found scum, and kill a townie can put us at LYLO.

This is suspiciously specific.
And still wrong. LaserGuy, do you think there is a role in this game that can put us in LYLO on D2?


Indie survivor? If we're 6-2-1 and mislynch, that's 4-2-1. If survivor can win with scum, then it's LYLO.

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Hari Seldon » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:22 am UTC

I just finished rereading Peaceful Whale's postings. LaserGuy, I think this is the way to go.

Vote: Peaceful Whale

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Madge » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:30 am UTC

Votals:

ConMan - (1) - moody
Moody - (1) - wam
Peaceful Whale - (3) - jimbob, bessie, Hari Seldon
Wam - (2) - Peaceful whale, LaserGuy


With 9 players alive, it is 5 to hammer.

Day 1 ends in 1 hour, 30 minutes


(I expect to be online at deadline so I'm likely to call it right away: Sabrar may also be able to do so.)
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby bessie » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:01 am UTC

Hari Seldon wrote:Bessie, how were you able to predict Peaceful Whale's role? I asked you about Maven, because I believed that you were the most likely candidate for his partner at the time. Based on your response, I do not suspect that any longer.

It is possible that Bessie and Peaceful Whale have similar roles and perhaps have to kill each other in order to win the receptionist's heart.
1. Are you sure I’m correct? I guess we’ll know tomorrow. I have a knack for setup spec. It makes up a little for my lack of skill as a scumhunter.
2. It’s possible. You want to take my word that it’s not true?

Hari Seldon wrote:
Maven wrote:if It is roleplay, than why would scum roleplay as their scummy character?

Bessie, is this a slip?
So then, this was all about me me me? You weren’t implying that Maven has a role and a safeclaim?


Unsatisfying and unsatisfactory reads list. I really meant to have more, but something came up last night and I didn’t have time. Read my posts, everything should be there, I just didn’t bring it all together.

town

LaserGuy –Ok with his content, I think he came out ahead on the debate with somitomi. Town.

Hari Seldon- An experienced player from somewhere, it doesn’t really matter where because it appears he would like to be judged on his content in this game, and I’m ok with that. I like his content and his questioning, town lean.

jimbobmacdoodle- Overdefending somitomi, could it really be because he’s a nice guy trying to help out a newbie? Something in his last couple of posts is bothering me, I need to sleep on it though. Currently slight town lean.

moody7277 – The usual (you all read Crossover, right?). Not on my lynch list today.

Maven89 – Hard to tell because of lack of content. Still thinking about the “scummy character” thing. Not on my lynch list today.

somitomi/ConMan - As previously discussed by me, somitomi went in to damage control mode on page 1. I have a strong scum lean on somitomi, but have a bit of uncertainty because he is a newbie. However the newbie factor will be irrelevant on D2, and I won’t have to doubt any scum ping I may receive from ConMan.

wam – Not feeling good about his content. wam may be rusty, but he’s no novice. I think he may be scum partners with somitomi/ConMan, and if so they will be a dangerous team tomorrow. Scummy.

Peaceful Whale- Already covered.

scum

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:04 am UTC

Hari Seldon wrote:I just finished rereading Peaceful Whale's postings. LaserGuy, I think this is the way to go.

Vote: Peaceful Whale


Do you think he's mafia? If his partner is Maven and basically abandoned him, maybe. Otherwise, I'm not sure I see it. I can see the case for indie.

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:15 am UTC

Speaking of whom, I don't like that Maven hasn't voted.

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:36 am UTC

I'm going to leave my vote as-is. We're out of time anyway.

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Maven89 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:37 am UTC

Funny enough, I just got back from work. Reading up now

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Maven89 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:45 am UTC

@Laserguy @Bessie, what do you make of Harri ignoring all the points and questions I had for him?

It's too late in the day to pick another lynch candidate, either way PowerWhale's claim is fishy, most suspicious is that he says he knows he can be investigated, which doesn't seem like a line a town role would have. Plus reasons I stated earlier.

Vote: Powerwhale

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Maven89 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:45 am UTC

Vote: PeacefulWhale

I would hope the mod would count the other vote anyways, but just in case

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Maven89 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:46 am UTC

That should be l-1. Need one more

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Hari Seldon » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:46 am UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:He [Wam] also jumped on somitomi initially in a way that distinctly felt to me like looking for an easy target.
JimBob, I do not believed this occured. I am not sure what to think about this.

Does anyone other than JimBob have a character name?

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Maven89 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:52 am UTC

Hari Seldon wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Does anyone other than JimBob have a character name?


No one answer this

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby bessie » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:53 am UTC

Fixing a quote tag in this post because I want jimbob to answer it tomorrow.
bessie wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if some of what Peaceful Whale has said is true (e.g. He might be scum or indie who gets a bonus if he kills the Vice President, thus acting as an anti-claim mechanism), but he has repeatedly failed to address his scum slip or various other content issues raised by others, so I'm not sure I buy him being nameless semi-vanilla townie.
Why not? What are your reasons for not believing his claims to be a nameless semi-vanilla townie?


Maven, whomever has the most votes is lynched, hammer isn't required.

Maven89 wrote:@Laserguy @Bessie, what do you make of Harri ignoring all the points and questions I had for him?
I don't think I can do this in 10 minutes. But I'll be thinking about this tonight, and will have an answer for you D2 if I'm here.

Ninja'd. Hari Seldon picked up on what was bothering me about jimbob.

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Madge » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:53 am UTC

Maven89 wrote:Vote: PeacefulWhale

I would hope the mod would count the other vote anyways, but just in case


Yes, I would have counted your vote for Power Whale :lol:

Votals:

ConMan - (1) - moody
Moody - (1) - wam
Peaceful Whale - (4) - jimbob, bessie, Hari Seldon, Maven
Wam - (2) - Peaceful whale, LaserGuy


With 9 players alive, it is 5 to hammer.

Day 1 ends in like 7 minutes
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Madge » Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:01 am UTC

There was a long pause, and then the fur began to fly.

People began speculating on how the humans had gotten control of the power, and bickering about whose fault it was that enough security hadn’t been hired. Then again, whichever creature was fighting them had enough strength to dispatch a vampire with nary a second thought, so what could possibly be done in light of that much power?

The heated arguments continued as it went from name-calling to some light shoving. A few fanged onlookers couldn’t help but hope some of the many humans in attendance met their end: even under these circumstances, who can turn down a hearty meal?

Finally, the crowd started circling one of their own, one of the hairiest people in attendence.

“Come on, you don’t want to kill me, do you?” Came the surprisingly confident rejoinder. “I’m a werewolf, for crying out loud! It’s right there in the name: WOLFington investments! You guys need me!”

“We all know that you’re a human most of the time, and you were human before you were bitten after all. If anyone’s turned on us, it’ll be you!” Someone with a prominent wart on their face pointed a thin, bony finger.

“No! No! It’s not like that at all! IDIOTS!” All of a sudden, the human was gone and a wolf was standing there, its teeth bared.

A thin, pale green bolt of light popped out of that long, thin, bony finger and its owner laughed maniacally. “If you like transforming so much, try this on for size!”

Where the fearsome beast once stood, now sat a tiny frog. One of the board members looked at the nearest human and nodded.

The frog was squished under the human’s boot with only the barest hint of a squeak.

At the same time, the lights went out.


It is now night. Peaceful Whale has been executed by the group vote. Flip will be in the morning. Note that role names and alignments will be revealed but not flavour or power text.

Please PM me and Sabrar your night actions ASAP.

Night ends in 48 hours or when all actions are submitted and any chatters have agreed to end the night, whichever is sooner. I will not count weekends as half time during night phases, but please let me know over PM if you require an extension.
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 2 - Bâ Unbound

Postby Madge » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:12 am UTC

WIth the lights out, the cacophony commenced. There were low hums, the inhuman sound of human screams, and, most worryingly of all, the recitation of words of power.

The lights came on scarcely a minute later, revealing the bloodbath.

A few humans lay on the ground, pale-faced and exsanguinated. A few pale creatures stood nearby, their smiles betraying a combination of satiation and false innocence. Such things were commonplace at parties at Wolfington Investments, so nobody paid them much mind. There would be more humans where those one came from: there always were.

What was actually distressing was the form in the centre of the crowd, glowing with a dark aura: the illusion of its perfect business casual - more intimidating than any formality: crushing superiority without the appearance of effort - had faded, leaving the shambling figure standing there, only pale, dry bandages for covering. A wicked, silver-plated knife was sticking out of the creature’s chest, but the blood within was too dessicated to seep out. It looked more like a cheap theatre trick than the result of a murder attempt.

Those who had used their black magic rituals to raise the mummy from the dead looked on in shock: with its second death, was the ancient priest of a long-dead civilisation finally free of their bounds? Would the bandaged corpse finally be able to pass over peacefully to the Field of Reeds, its patron deity Khonsu keeping it hidden from the notice of Ra and the judgement of Osiris?

It seemed so. The priest cursed each of their names in a long-forgotten language as the dark aura encompassed the useless shell that the Bâ had been inhabiting for far too long; the human-headed bird burst forth from the impotent shell, which fell to the ground and turned to dust. The Bâ flew up and up, reaching the grand chandelier in the ballroom and continuing through as though it was not there. It made the long journey to the Field of Reeds, and there lived in paradise for eternity.


LaserGuy was murdered in the night. They were a Mummy Unjester, independently aligned, and have won.

The beauty of this sight brought a tear to many an eye; or, at least, to the eyes of the employees whose key performance indicators did not depend on the accuracy of the dead mummy’s haruspex readings.

However, the group of frightened monsters was brought back to reality when the head of security spoke up.

“Everyone, uh, following some… complaints from our last receptionist, the werewolf we’ve just… uh, taken care of, had to wear a tracking device to make sure there were no more, uh, I guess you could say, uh, incidents, you know? And I just reviewed the logs and there was no movement recorded during the lockdown or during the first power outage. I don’t think we got the right person- eh, werewolf.”

Peaceful Whale was executed by majority vote. He was a Werewolf Love Interest, aligned with town.

It is now Day 2. With 7 players alive, it is 4 to hammer.

Day 2 ends in 5 days, 18 hours.

If you expected a PM at the end of last Night, and didn't get one, let me know ASAP and I'll find it for you.
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 2 - Bâ Unbound

Postby bessie » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:36 am UTC

I have nothing I want to claim at this time. Maybe later.

bessie wrote:
Maven89 wrote:@Laserguy @Bessie, what do you make of Harri ignoring all the points and questions I had for him?
I don't think I can do this in 10 minutes. But I'll be thinking about this tonight, and will have an answer for you D2 if I'm here.

Well TBH my first thought was that if Maven expected his questions to be answered, he should have posted them the previous day, not nine hours before deadline. But Hari read Maven’s post, probably carefully because he questioned me on it, and Hari posted a good amount of content after Maven and did respond to him in this post but did not answer any questions. So I think that someone that asks a lot of questions and expects answers should reasonably expect to have to answer some questions too, not just dismiss them all as nitpicking.

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 2 - Bâ Unbound

Postby bessie » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:18 am UTC

jimbobmacdoodle, do you have a response to this?
Hari Seldon wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:He [Wam] also jumped on somitomi initially in a way that distinctly felt to me like looking for an easy target.
JimBob, I do not believed this occured. I am not sure what to think about this.


And please respond to this too:
bessie wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if some of what Peaceful Whale has said is true (e.g. He might be scum or indie who gets a bonus if he kills the Vice President, thus acting as an anti-claim mechanism), but he has repeatedly failed to address his scum slip or various other content issues raised by others, so I'm not sure I buy him being nameless semi-vanilla townie.
Why not? What are your reasons for not believing his claims to be a nameless semi-vanilla townie?

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 2 - Bâ Unbound

Postby wam » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:12 am UTC

So I guess that covers the independant.

I am assuming an UNJester is someone who's win condition is to be NK'ds?

So assuming one independent (Safe assumption I think), we started at 6/1/2 and are now at 5/2, so we have one more lynch before LYLO.

So claim time, I guess, I am the town watcher, last night I watched laserguy. One visitor Maven.

Taking that I read back through their posts looking for links to their buddy.

Post summary
1) Post 1 rules questions
2) Questions Bessier about the rule spec
3) Answers 3 questions
4) First real content will just quote that one
Spoiler:
Maven89 wrote:My thoughts on the Bessie question is that there were several possibilities. She could be scum with scum-confirmed information about the roles, she could be scum throwing out random roles in the hopes that the "setup" she provides will stick and the town would be left with a false concept of the PRs, or she could have meta/mathmatical reasons to believe what she said. Her response shows the last, so I find that line of questioning closed.

Moody's question makes me wonder if he's an independent. That seems way too specific of a question to just throw out randomly.

I agree with Bessie that Wam constantly pointing out that he apparently didn't know about the day chat to be odd and a little too much "look at me I don't know scum things, I'm town"

Wam, if the day was going to end right now, and you had to pick one person to be lynched (no non-lynch), who would you pick?


5) Promises content later
6) and again
7) Takes Hari's post apart gives reads at the end.

One thing that stood out was that whilst there was not much content from Maven early days Bessie was mentioned in most posts.

The aggression at Hari could be an attempt at bussing.



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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 2 - Bâ Unbound

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:44 pm UTC

If there's ever been a pro-town indie, that's got to be it (assuming by unjester, it's like a jester, but night killed instead). Well done LaserGuy.

I'm not going to apologise for lynching Peaceful Whale. He seemed the best option, given the apparent unexplained scum slip. Assuming that wam is telling the truth, I'm very happy that I didn't switch to wam instead. Waiting on Maven's response before posting my thoughts on wam's claim any further.

@Maven - what is your response to wam's claim? Also, could you please explain your request yesterday asking people not to answer the name-claim idea.

bessie wrote:jimbobmacdoodle, do you have a response to this?
Hari Seldon wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:He [Wam] also jumped on somitomi initially in a way that distinctly felt to me like looking for an easy target.
JimBob, I do not believed this occured. I am not sure what to think about this.
I was referring to the post where wam expressed "mild suspicions" about somitomi, although I realise in retrospect that "jumped on" was too strong a phrase, unless you take it to mean in the sense of "jumped on the bandwagon". It was an early ping, which I probably over-exaggerated in my mind, looking back at it (especially given some of his later comments as viewing LG and somitomi as town versus town).

bessie wrote:And please respond to this too:
bessie wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if some of what Peaceful Whale has said is true (e.g. He might be scum or indie who gets a bonus if he kills the Vice President, thus acting as an anti-claim mechanism), but he has repeatedly failed to address his scum slip or various other content issues raised by others, so I'm not sure I buy him being nameless semi-vanilla townie.
Why not? What are your reasons for not believing his claims to be a nameless semi-vanilla townie?
I have a job title mentioned in my flavour; I assumed that others would too, though maybe that isn't the case. Aside: I don't think we should all start claiming it one way or another (i.e. don't claim whether or not you have such a title). Given that assumption, I didn't believe Peaceful Whale when he said he didn't have a "name", although I guess in retrospect he might have taken it to mean something like "Alfred" or "John", rather than, e.g. "Secretary" or "HR Manager". I didn't believe him to be townie either for reasons previously stated (primarily failing to address my questions about his scum slip). The semi-vanilla part was the only bit that I did believe.
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 2 - Bâ Unbound

Postby moody7277 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:15 pm UTC

wam wrote:So claim time, I guess, I am the town watcher, last night I watched laserguy. One visitor Maven.


Well, that's rather definitive. The nice thing is, even if it's scum!wam telling a tall tale, we still get one scum lynch. wam's analysis of Maven's posts looks to be about as helpful as possible given that Maven's posting has been a bit light.
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 2 - Bâ Unbound

Postby bessie » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:43 pm UTC

wam wrote: I am assuming an UNJester is someone who's win condition is to be NK'ds?
Why assume, wam, why not look it up?

wam wrote: So claim time, I guess, I am the town watcher, last night I watched laserguy. One visitor Maven.
I believe you targeted LaserGuy. Maven, do you have anything to claim?

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I'm not going to apologise for lynching Peaceful Whale. He seemed the best option, given the apparent unexplained scum slip. Assuming that wam is telling the truth, I'm very happy that I didn't switch to wam instead. Waiting on Maven's response before posting my thoughts on wam's claim any further.
I wasn’t aware that anyone asked you to apologize. Was the scum slip the only thing you found suspicious? Do you feel you received a satisfactory answer from Peaceful Whale regarding your question as to why he thought we would be at LYLO on D2? Why so quick to accept wam’s claim?

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
bessie wrote:jimbobmacdoodle, do you have a response to this?
Hari Seldon wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:He [Wam] also jumped on somitomi initially in a way that distinctly felt to me like looking for an easy target.
JimBob, I do not believed this occured. I am not sure what to think about this.
I was referring to the post where wam expressed "mild suspicions" about somitomi, although I realise in retrospect that "jumped on" was too strong a phrase, unless you take it to mean in the sense of "jumped on the bandwagon". It was an early ping, which I probably over-exaggerated in my mind, looking back at it (especially given some of his later comments as viewing LG and somitomi as town versus town).
I agree that jumped on was a bit strong, especially since wam’s town vs town remark was also on P1.
wam wrote: Laser and somi interaction is coming off town v town to me.


I was curious as to where Hari Seldon dug up that quote, and it was from an analysis post way back on P3. I went back and reread jimbob’s post, and there are some things that are still bothering me from that post.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote: Regarding PW's punctuation correctness - he did in last game go back and correct himself several times, and I see no reason to disbelieve his response.
Same (incorrect) view as Hari, that this was an edit to correct punctuation only. Why did everyone acknowledge the punctuation error, but ignore the deleted word?

jimbobmacdoodle wrote: I also have no issues with his FoS question - I didn't know it's exact definition, although I understood roughly what I meant from context, much as PW has explained is the case for him.

jimbob further explained his FoS comment in this post
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Regarding the FoS comment, it was only in my pre-starting-to-play reads and my first game or two that I didn't understand what it stood for.
I never liked jimbob’s defense of Peaceful Whale’s FoS comment. It always seemed like he was looking for an excuse to defend him.

From jimbob’s first game:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I will try to post an ordered list by the latest Saturday. I probably won't have time to do a full read through to help crystallise my thoughts on everybody until then.

FOS: Vytron

Note that in Draculafia FoS is used five times on that page alone:
Misnomer FoS’d jimbob
jimbob quotes and responds to Misnomer’s FoS
jimbob uses FoS quoted above
jimbob removes FoS
Vytron uses FoS

I find it very hard to believe that you didn’t know what FoS stood for in your first game, and even harder to believe that you would have used the term without looking it up or at least asking someone what it meant. I think you were really reaching for a reason to defend Peaceful Whale at that point. Why? Maybe so your over defense of somitomi would look more natural?

jimbobmacdoodle wrote: I think somitomi spent too much time getting distracted by the chat conversation, to the detriment of his scum-hunting. I've been flip-flopping a bit as I've read the discussion about where I sit on it and have concluded in favour of somitomi, in that his mistake/interpretation was genuine (doesn't rule him out of being scum though) - I often read the rules and miss half of the important ones on my first time through. Nothing else particularly stands out to me. I'd appreciate a bit more depth on the reasoning behind his reads at some point though. Slightly townie.
Interesting, somitomi is the only person that jimbob didn’t ask at least one specific question in his two reads lists (although I also think his question to me was just for the sake of making a question).

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:How on earth would scum!me make that sort of mistake in the opening post???
Thank you for pointing out that something that you did is something that you would never do as scum!

moody7277 wrote:Well, that's rather definitive. The nice thing is, even if it's scum!wam telling a tall tale, we still get one scum lynch. wam's analysis of Maven's posts looks to be about as helpful as possible given that Maven's posting has been a bit light.
Why so quick to accept wam’s claim that he targeted LaserGuy with a watcher power?

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 2 - Bâ Unbound

Postby wam » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:22 pm UTC

@ Bessie

As I have forgotten that site existed and I should have done!

As bessie has highlighted saying your not apologizing for lynching town is a definite scumtell in my book.

@ bessie I saw the changed word in PW''s edit, but what significance/meaning are you giving it?
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 2 - Bâ Unbound

Postby bessie » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:04 pm UTC

wam wrote:@ bessie I saw the changed word in PW''s edit, but what significance/meaning are you giving it?
See this post. Peaceful Whale’s EBWOP post was one of the points I highlighted in my case against him. And I was wrong in my read of him. But I think that the reaction by others to that post, and the non reaction by others to my specific point about that post, have been interesting. No one but me has commented on the deleted word, which was at least as noticeable as the punctuation change.

bessie points out deleted word, votes PW.
LaserGuy questions bessie on significance.
wam questions bessie on significance.
jimbob asks for bessie’s PW case.
bessie’s PW case, explains interpretation of deleted word.
LaserGuy read it.
So did jimbob.

I’m currently trying to work out who actually believed Peaceful Whale was scum.


ConMan, please join the conversation. Do you have any reads?

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 2 - Bâ Unbound

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:43 pm UTC

bessie wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I'm not going to apologise for lynching Peaceful Whale. He seemed the best option, given the apparent unexplained scum slip. Assuming that wam is telling the truth, I'm very happy that I didn't switch to wam instead. Waiting on Maven's response before posting my thoughts on wam's claim any further.
I wasn’t aware that anyone asked you to apologize.
They hadn't, but I always view anybody on a town-lynch wagon with a degree of suspicion, so I decided to pre-emptively defend myself, in case anybody decided to challenge me as to why I was on the wagon.
bessie wrote:Was the scum slip the only thing you found suspicious? Do you feel you received a satisfactory answer from Peaceful Whale regarding your question as to why he thought we would be at LYLO on D2?
It was more that he didn't explain himself when repeatedly asked about this and other things (such as the LYLO point). I might have reconsidered had he provided a fair reason for even getting into this area. I never received satisfactory answers to most of my questions directed towards him.
bessie wrote:Why so quick to accept wam’s claim?
I don't necessarily accept his claim. I am quite conscious that scum!wam might be lying, hence why I'd like to see Maven's response before posting any thoughts on it further.
bessie wrote:I agree that jumped on was a bit strong, especially since wam’s town vs town remark was also on P1.
wam wrote: Laser and somi interaction is coming off town v town to me.
wam posting early suspicions and then changing his mind doesn't mean that his early suspicions weren't opportunistic though.

bessie wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote: Regarding PW's punctuation correctness - he did in last game go back and correct himself several times, and I see no reason to disbelieve his response.
Same (incorrect) view as Hari, that this was an edit to correct punctuation only. Why did everyone acknowledge the punctuation error, but ignore the deleted word?
Can't speak for others, but when I saw PW's original correction, I looked quite hard and didn't see what the difference was. I assumed that Hari had found the difference later, hence why I had the same view as him that it was a punctuation fix. As to why I didn't comment on it later, I didn't consider it particularly significant, though having just re-read your posts for my latest work-in-progress reads list, I definitely see now why you considered it important.
bessie wrote:I never liked jimbob’s defense of Peaceful Whale’s FoS comment. It always seemed like he was looking for an excuse to defend him.

From jimbob’s first game:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I will try to post an ordered list by the latest Saturday. I probably won't have time to do a full read through to help crystallise my thoughts on everybody until then.

FOS: Vytron

Note that in Draculafia FoS is used five times on that page alone:
Misnomer FoS’d jimbob
jimbob quotes and responds to Misnomer’s FoS
jimbob uses FoS quoted above
jimbob removes FoS
Vytron uses FoS

I find it very hard to believe that you didn’t know what FoS stood for in your first game, and even harder to believe that you would have used the term without looking it up or at least asking someone what it meant. I think you were really reaching for a reason to defend Peaceful Whale at that point. Why? Maybe so your over defense of somitomi would look more natural?
I thought I said this earlier, but maybe it was only in my mind. I understood what it meant, but not what the abbreviation stood for. In other words, I understood that FoS meant that you didn't like somebody, but didn't want to vote for them at that point, for whatever reason. I did not know that it stood for Finger of Suspicion, until I found it defined in one of the other forum threads. I believed PW had the same issue, and so I defended him. The basis for this defence is basically the same reason as to why I defended somitomi for his mistakes over night length etc. I have made similar mistakes, and I didn't see the point as relevant to the wider important conversation. Please answer this: why did it matter whether PW understood the exact words FoS stands for? I acknowledge that the somitomi case is a little less clear-cut, but it's still me trying to prevent a discussion getting away from the key point of finding scum because people have built up an unreasonable picture in their mind, in my opinion.

bessie wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote: I think somitomi spent too much time getting distracted by the chat conversation, to the detriment of his scum-hunting. I've been flip-flopping a bit as I've read the discussion about where I sit on it and have concluded in favour of somitomi, in that his mistake/interpretation was genuine (doesn't rule him out of being scum though) - I often read the rules and miss half of the important ones on my first time through. Nothing else particularly stands out to me. I'd appreciate a bit more depth on the reasoning behind his reads at some point though. Slightly townie.
Interesting, somitomi is the only person that jimbob didn’t ask at least one specific question in his two reads lists (although I also think his question to me was just for the sake of making a question).
I was trying to ask everybody at least one question, I don't dispute that, but I couldn't think of a reasonable question to ask somitomi at that point, so I didn't try to force one. I don't think my question about your thoughts on LaserGuy or Maven was particularly forced since looking back at my notes, you had not interacted with either of them at all, so I had no idea where you stood on them, whereas I was pretty happy I knew where you stood with every other player, even if only loosely.
bessie wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:How on earth would scum!me make that sort of mistake in the opening post???
Thank you for pointing out that something that you did is something that you would never do as scum!
Wam was accusing me of a slip that simply made no sense as a slip. This was me clearly pointing out that it didn't make sense. I feel like I would have reacted in a similar way (maybe with a little bit less disbelief though), if he'd said a similar thing about another player.

bessie wrote:
moody7277 wrote:Well, that's rather definitive. The nice thing is, even if it's scum!wam telling a tall tale, we still get one scum lynch. wam's analysis of Maven's posts looks to be about as helpful as possible given that Maven's posting has been a bit light.
Why so quick to accept wam’s claim that he targeted LaserGuy with a watcher power?
@bessie - moody himself in this very bit you have quoted makes it clear that he knows wam might be lying. I'm confused why you think moody is necessarily quickly accepting wam's claim here.
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 2 - Bâ Unbound

Postby Maven89 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:59 pm UTC

Wam is full of shit. I'm pure vanilla townie

vote: wam

He must know his time is up and went for a gamble

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby wam » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:04 pm UTC

moody7277 wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Aside from this point, moody, do you have any other reasons for finding somitomi scummy?


Nobody at this point has done anything very scummy, although Maven being lurky around his excuse is moving up a bit (he may have just moved past PW a little). This was just the weirdest example I could find in my read through at the time.


So doing this on my phone so only 1 quote in a post. This stood out to me given my result on maven1. Looks like scum distancing to me.

Also given the amount of times maven mentioned Bessie I went back a 're read their posts. I flipped around on reads through it but there were a few times Bessie mentioned pw being an Indy. That could be a tell for scum knowing that pw wasn't part of the team. Will have a 're read tomorrow when my brain is more alive.

Ninjas by maven will respond in another post
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 2 - Bâ Unbound

Postby wam » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:08 pm UTC

Maven89 wrote:Wam is full of shit. I'm pure vanilla townie

vote: wam

He must know his time is up and went for a gamble


Yeah if you had claimed a town power role I may have bought it but the result was definitive.

Also thought this when pw got lynched but didn't say anything as I wasn't online at deadline but if you look at the sign ups the mods said they were aiming for no vanilla roles.. pw vanilla until something happened I bought but pure vanilla nope.
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 2 - Bâ Unbound

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:44 pm UTC

Updated reads list. I am not re-reading Maven or wam at this point, so that Maven can respond to wam's claim first, and I can then re-read their content in light of that.

bessie (previously slight town, due to no particular pings one way or the other):
Spoiler:
Picking up from my previous reads list: post 1 - views somitomi's responses as damage control mode. Asks for clarification on wam's FaiD game comments about how PW was outed. Explains gambler's fallacy comments more. Points out that scum can be creative and role-play. Post 2 - accepts Hari's Shakespearean role-play explanation. Also responds to Hari Seldon's observations of her behaviour. Sounds slightly defensive about her setup spec and related comments in response to LaserGuy. Thinks Hari Seldon probably town. Points out that scum!me was the only previous person she thought she was tunnelling on for damage control in past game. Asks me for a couple of explanations on things I have asked/stated. Challenges wam for prodding Maven but not PW. Post 3 goes after PW for failing to answer questions addressed to him and for fishing for info about anti-town indies. Notes that PW's "punctuation fix" was not just a punctuation fix. Votes PW. Post 4 - summarises her case against PW (odd joke vote, possible slip that knows not team-mate with him; his wording fix; pushing indie as not lynch priority; various indie pings) - thinks he is anti-town indie. Guesses that win-con tied to death of another player, gains bonuses if fulfils some condition. Not pointing out link between HS and PW, but curious as to why HS only pointed out punctuation fix. Post 5 - Lots of questions to PW - why did he select a town read to read properly? Asks for his opinion on me. Wants full list. Asks again about his indies. Discusses Maven "slip". Post 6 - Gives reasons for believing scum have safe claims. Answers HS questions, mostly to do with her play-style. Finds it odd that everyone discussing the night cycle only considered scum chat. Post 7 - continues reinforcing her points on PW based on PW's responses - e.g. doesn't understand how PW claims to be vanilla. FoSses anybody who believes PW has a town win-condition. Has PW as scum for reasons other than scum slip. Asks me why I didn't believe PW's claim to be a nameless semi-vanilla townie. Post 8 - Some comments in response to HS re. PW's claim. Gives reads list (LG, HS, me various degrees of townie; moody, Maven not on lynch list; somitomi, wam, PW in scum region). Post 9 - Concerns about my recent posts picked up by HS. Post 10 (D2) - nothing to claim; thinks those who ask questions should also have to answer them. Post 11 - follows up on late D1 questions for me.
I'm feeling better about bessie than previously. Overall, her case on Peaceful Whale seems entirely reasonable, so I have no issues with her vote. For the most part she's talking and asking questions of quite a range of people (although I noticed pretty much zero interaction with moody since my previous reads list). She seems to be open about her opinions, and is not holding onto them stubbornly. About the worst thing that I spotted was a slight amount of defensiveness over her reasons for making setup speculation. Probably town.

somitomi/ConMan (previously slightly townie):
Spoiler:
somitomi post 1 - nothing of note. Post 2 - promises more detailed reads. Post 3 - Claims inexperience lead to confusion about difference between early night end and nightless. Gets replaced. ConMan post 1 - nothing of note; post 2 - claims passive ability, which might explain somitomi's confusion.
There's been basically nothing of note from somitomi/ConMan since my previous full read of him. My comments about him here are my latest thoughts on his debate over night length etc, where I am leaning marginally more towards it being an honest misunderstanding of something. This doesn't make him town necessarily though. I could see a case for him flailing and trying to defend himself, but I'm not convinced by that case. I'm placing him as slightly scummy due to the lack of useful content from him or ConMan since Monday.

Hari Seldon (previously town):
Spoiler:
Post 1 - goes into detail for his positive read on me in my opening post. Believes that the type of question asked is more iportant than what is asked usually (unwarranted aggression etc being more typical of mafia addressing partner). Points out that somitomi would have to be lying in the converstion. Points asigned are based on strength of tell. Post 2 - further explains his role-playing comments about me as being because of how I role-played. Post 3 - points analysis of page 2. Partner vibe between bessie and LaserGuy. Impression of bessie scum hunting. Doesn't like volume of questions bessie asked. Likes bessie's comment re. moody's gambler's fallacy comment. Overall rates bessie as townie. Gives LaserGuy lots of points for showing objectivity towards somitomi. Thinks scum!somitomi would have double-checked the rules or that his partner would have pinted it out. Gives somitomi town points for raising suspicions about wam for voting me. Docks points for using memory as an excuse. Overall places somitomi in the town region. Believes PW's comment about "other scum games" to be genuine slip (it was this point that made me spot the apparent slip). Several other small plus and minus points for a rage of things. Finds moody confident, and generally getting a town vibe from him. Lots of small issues with wam, and finds his voting and scum read on me weird. Finds Maven's choice of topics suspicious, and disagrees with them. Has wam, PW, Maven in the negative (scum) region. Post 4 - Asks some questions for clarity from wam and to moody for his reasoning for finding somitomi more suspicious of wam. Post 5 - Prods wam more about his "frustrated" read of somitomi. Post 6 - Asks bessie if Maven slipped. Post 7 - no useful comment. Post 8 - Asks questions to bessie about various bits of her content. Follows up with wam over "frustrated" comment. Disagrees saving vote is scummy. Disagrees with me over Maven's post quality. Votes PW, and thinks other scum is between wam and Maven, then explains these latter two reads. Posts 9 - own post is not OMGUS. Post 10 - unvotes PW. Post 11 - Asks PW questions. May consider switching to wam. Post 12 - asks wam about suspicion of ConMan. Post 13 - Surprised by bessie identifying PW's role. Post 14 - votes PW again. Post 15 - Brings up my wam "jumping on somitomi" comment, and asks if anybody else has a character name.
I generally really like Hari's content. It all feels well thought out. His votes and suspicions all have solid reasoning behind them, and he's asked a number of insightful questions. I am pretty confident that he is town. The one thing I might suggest here is that when he does these big points-posts, he puts a brief digest of the things he found scummiest/towniest about each player, along with why, so it's easy to get a feel for how he feels about each player overall.

moody (previous read was "no issues" - apparently I forgot to slap a town label on him):
Spoiler:
Post 1 - provides more detailed reasons for finding HS and LG townie. Got LG spot on as an independent. Doesn't think somi/wam scum-team likely. Post 2 - Explains reasons for finding LG indie (insistence on lack of indie in setup spec. Post 3 - Breaks down his case on somitomi into more detail. Concludes he had extra info. Post 4 - misreads (I think) my question over whether he has other reasons for finding somitomi scummy. Finds Maven a little scummy for lurking. Nobody is very scummy. Post 5 - Acknowledges need to update his reads. Post 6 - mod correction. Post 7 (Day 2) - Notes that even if wam is lying about his claim, we can still get 1 scum lynch. Finds wam's analysis of Maven's posting helpful, given Maven's light posting.
I keep forgetting that moody is playing in this game. I feel like he's slipping under the radar a bit. As before, nothing particularly stands out to me, although I don't fully understand his conclusion regarding somitomi/ConMan being scum. I'm slightly concerned that he has acknowledged that his reads are stale, but has so far done nothing to update them, although at least he has acknowledged this. Also interesting that he guessed LG was indie correctly, although I think that's likely inconsequential overall. Overall, his tone doesn't feel quite the same as Crossover, but that's hardly definitive. Probably the closest to a true neutral that I have, but I'll put him on the town side of the line for now, as there's no scum pings there.

@moody - when are you going to update your reads?

I see that in the time it's taken me to write this list, Maven has responded with a VT claim. Unlikely, in my opinion, but I need to go to bed now, so will think on it more and post my detailed reads of wam and Maven in the evening. I'll post a quick follow up in a few minutes about my thoughts on the claims as things stand.

Roughly ordered list from Town to Scum:
Hari Seldon
bessie
moody
somitomi
wam <- only here if Maven89 flips town. If he flips scum, he probably slides up to between bessie and moody.
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 2 - Bâ Unbound

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:02 pm UTC

wam wrote:
Maven89 wrote:Wam is full of shit. I'm pure vanilla townie

vote: wam

He must know his time is up and went for a gamble


Yeah if you had claimed a town power role I may have bought it but the result was definitive.

Also thought this when pw got lynched but didn't say anything as I wasn't online at deadline but if you look at the sign ups the mods said they were aiming for no vanilla roles.. pw vanilla until something happened I bought but pure vanilla nope.
This is basically my response summarised.

Prior to Maven's claim, I had 4 scenarios lined up:
1) scum!wam decided to fake claim to try to buy a mislynch before going down himself, since he didn't look good yesterday.
2) scum!wam and scum!Maven decided that one of them was likely to get mislynched, and so they decided to do an extreme claim-based bus.
3) town!wam saw scum!Maven killing LaserGuy.
4) town!wam saw town!Maven visiting LaserGuy and scum used a Ninja to kill LaserGuy.

4) is obviously ruled out by Maven's claim. I'm assuming that PR!Maven would not lie about this in order to persuade us that wam is wrong. Much more likely in that situation would be being truthful and trying to get wam lynched, or to accept that wam might have been fooled by a ninja.

3) is pretty straightforward, and the simplest explanation for the current situation.

1) and 2) are also fairly plausible, but I don't think scum!wam would be so certain that he would otherwise be lynched to try this gamble against a townie. I think it's more likely though if both Maven and wam are scum, as overnight, I think they were both pretty high up people's scum lists, and this is an attempt to "clear" one of them. I also don't think this would work if scum do not have safe claims, as there's too great a risk for wam to be counter-claimed by a real watcher. I therefore don't think that we can rule out scum!wam, if Maven flips scum.

wam has already pointed out why I now believe he is more likely telling the truth than Maven - as he noted, Vanilla Townies were supposed to be avoided if at all possible. Given Peaceful Whale was already semi-vanilla, and there's some indication from his claim that he might not be the only one, a straight-up vanilla seems very unlikely. Consequently, I think Maven is today's lynch-candidate, although I'll hold off voting for now to see if anybody else has anything to say first.

@Maven - are you holding back anything about your role? You are quite clearly in the firing line, so now is the time to be open.

I did have a quick thought as to whether Maven could be Jester, with such a poor counter-claim, but it really doesn't seem likely, given we've already had one indie flip. A second indie would imply 5-2-1-1, probably, which means town could be in the minority by D2, and so seems unbalanced.
BlitzGirl the Primordial
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