Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 3 - The Times They Are a-Changelin'

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby moody7277 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:27 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:What in particular in the last couple of posts of somitomi's do you find scummy?


These last two posts look like somi getting caught about knowing a lot more about how night works than chatters chatting during the day, which would seem to indicate that they got the info from somewhere else than the OP which somi admits to not reading closely.
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby somitomi » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:11 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:No, I didn't choose to ignore that rule. I just do not believe there is any reason to interpret it to mean that nights will be very short, as was your initial claim, and this setup is not nightless, as you implied when you made the comparison to the FaiD game here. The idea that mafia would simply submit their night actions immediately and end the night without any discussion or planning had honestly never crossed my mind.

So we came to different conclusions from the same ruleset. I thought mafia would make their decision quicker than if they had to start the discussion at the end of the day, you don't. That's hardly "not knowing the rules" which you were accusing me at least up until here.

On a related note, I re-read the thread to formulate some early, vague reads:
Peaceful Whale: seems to be joking in a lot of his posts, which could be a way to be active without actually saying much. Very slightly suspicious
Hari Seldon: few posts with questions and one incredibly long analysis of everyone's content. I find some of the points they awarded odd, but nothing stood out too much. Neutral for now.
LaserGuy: participates in setup speculation, asks some questions and persistently questions me. Seens fairly townie to me.
moody7277: a little setup speculation, asked maven an odd question, their reads seem all right. Slightly townie (possible independent?)
wam: suspicions at me for noticing daychat, questions Jimbob about the name mentioned in the first post and votes him, later unvoting by "popular demand". Leaning towards scum
jimbobmacdoodle: only made two posts, wow. One is short speculation on the setup, other is answering wam's question about the name. Nothing suspicious other than the relative inactivity.
bessie: really detailed speculation on the setup and a bunch of FoS, a reasonable explanation of why she thinks certain roles might be in the game, replies to questions. Seems townie
Maven89: asks bessie about setup speculation, ducks out of the way of moody's question, analyses the reasons behind bessie's detailed setup spec. Neutral for now.

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:41 pm UTC

Back home now. Time for one of my wall read-lists. Notes are in the spoilers.

bessie:
Spoiler:
First post Fosses 3 out of the 8 other players (PW, somitomi, wam). Makes a good observation about wam's hypocritical suspicion on somitomi. Also some setup speculation. Second post, continues her trend of previous games of pointing out people's ignorance of day chat (which is a null point to me). Explains reason for setup spec. Pressures wam for more reasoning in post 3. Also prods PW for non-answer, and asks for justifications for continued random votes. Post 4 Fosses moody for his gambler's fallacy comment in response to moody. Indies are usually anti-town. Picks up PW's comment re. not lynching moody. Post 5, agrees with somitomi re. wam's suspicion on me. Addresses similar thoughts about Hari Seldon's reads to ones I had. Responds to comments by him. Pressures PW for more content.
No particular pings from bessie to me one way or another. Most of what she posts looks similar in style to her usual play - she is aggressive as usual (she's Fossed 4 of the 8 other players). Her concern about moody's gambler's fallacy seems a little bit of a stretch, maybe. To me, it seemed quite clear that moody was pointing it out about PW's read on bessie specifically, because PW had explicitly said it about bessie. Bessie is somewhere in mid-range territory currently, leaning slightly town based purely on the fact that the majority of players are presumably town.

@bessie - what are your current thoughts on Maven and LaserGuy?

Hari Seldon:
Spoiler:
Post 1 - comments about day chat also including night chat. Town ping, I think? I don't see any particular reason why scum would bring this up and request clarification to make things clearer for town. Post 2, asks for suspicions from PW. Post 3, statistical reads post. Values assigned seem to be very arbitrary (2 town points to me for my opening post?!). Seems to put a lot of faith in the statistical chance of a scum partner asking a team-mate a serious question, and not a "pseudoserious" one. Also some inconsistencies in scores (e.g. points for somitomi due to non-predetermined RVS, but not to me). He also misses some points (e.g. B, C in somitomi's third quote). Follows up with lack of response from PW to earlier question. Points to LG for scum hunting out of the gate, but to me seem like a joke comment in his first comment, and certainly less serious than his second post question (awarded the same number of points). Curious that he dislikes Maven's comments, and that he looked back at moody's Crossover play, but not Maven's, which is markedly different so far. His noncommittal-ness on bessie in particular seems a little weird, given he commits to reads (or labels as zero points without comments) on practically other player post. His -1 point for her aggression is unwarranted, given how common this style is from her. Again, interesting that he read moody's Crossover posts, but apparently not bessie's (if he had, he'd have noticed her style is consistent). His other two posts follow up with PW about PW's lack of response, and his punctuation comments (the latter comment is unreasonable).
Hari Seldon wrote:JimBob, in your opening post, you said that you expect town to have somewhat weaker abilities in the main. What does "main" mean?
@Hari Seldon - If we are in the 7-2 setup, I'm assuming that town abilities are going to be relatively weaker than is typical around here. For example, if we have a cop they might be neutered in some way (e.g. being macho). "In the main" means that this isn't necessarily true across the board. For example, a player might be a full doctor, with no drawbacks.

I'm not convinced by Hari Seldon's reads list methodology, for reasons in part already mentioned by bessie (over-reliance on probability of mafia asking scum buddy questions etc, and his mis-read of bessie's aggression). I feel like the points assigned were broadly arbitrary, and as the saying goes, there's lies, damn lies, and statistics. Essentially, should HS have scum-motivation, he could easily manipulate the figures to paint whoever he wanted as the scummiest, by arbitrarily assigning the scummier-looking content of that player a worse value than, say, his own scum-buddy. I also find it interesting that he compared moody to moody's Crossover D1 play, but didn't do similar things for any of the other D1 Crossover players (me, Maven, bessie, PW). That all being said, I actually think HS is town, because of his continued pushing of PW for PW's response to his earlier question (although I think he's misinterpreted PW's reference to his past scum games), and because of his opening comment seeking clarification about chat.

@Hari Seldon - you have several places where you've given players 1 or more points for seemingly small comments (e.g. my opening post). Could you go into more detail as to why you feel so strongly about them, please? How did you decide on a number to give them?

LaserGuy:
Spoiler:
Post 1 - joke votes somitomi, for having a similar post-style to mine. Post 2, picks up on somitomi missing night length, but not chat style. Posts 3 and 4 discusses setup and indie count with bessie. Post 5, converts vote to serious after not liking somi's response (bad memory). Finds wam's "I missed day chat" thing interesting. Goes into more depth on the chat discussion in the next post. Responds to HS's questions re. reason for setup discussion, and interest over wam's chat comments. Next post asks why HS found me so townie for my opening comment and continues his discussion with somitomi (which goes back to the start in his next post). Finally starts to back down a little. In that and the next post, also asks moody to clarify his scummiest reads.
Just reading through LaserGuy's side of the discussion with somitomi, I feel like he's doing a plytho (or maybe plytho's antagonist, like bessie in Crossover), where he spends far too much time discussing one thing, and is dragging the conversation too far into unhelpful territory. I do see where he is coming from, and I could see a case for it, but I feel like scum wouldn't make a slip quite like that - I'm sure they'd be careful about disclosing information such as how their chat works. The question is, is he deliberately allowing this argument to dominate his time so that he looks busy, without actually reading anybody else? Slightly scummy due to lack of reads or thoughts on most players so far (aside from somitomi, setup speculation, and rules discussion, there are a couple of light questions directed at bessie, HS and moody, and that's about it).

@LaserGuy - you asked Hari Seldon why he found my opening post so townie. Why did you not ask about any of the other posts from other players he gave big points to (positive or negative)? Overall, what do you think about HS? In fact how about everybody else as well?

Maven89:
Spoiler:
Opens with a rules question. Next post asks about bessie's setup speculation. This post accepts bessie's response. Refuses to answer moody about his intent towards indies. Fourth post, explains his reasoning for asking bessie about setup. Thinks moody is indie. Finds wam comments re. not knowing about day chat interesting as well. Asks wam who he'd lynch right now.
Maven is feeling very light in content at the moment, especially compared to what I remember of him from early D1 in Crossover, when he was quite aggressively pushing some players, IIRC. I'm not seeing the same level of scrutiny here so far. Mildly suspicious, but could just be because of weekend timing.

@Maven - if you had to lynch someone right now, who would it be? What do you think of wam's response about wanting to lynch me because of my opening post?

moody:
Spoiler:
Opens with joke vote on HS. Second post jokes about SDK mentoring PW and doesn't expect an SK. Post 3 brings up gambler's fallacy in response to PW's comment. Agrees with general setup opinion. Asks Maven about his indie stance, and explains his reasoning for the question in the next post. Reads post comes next. Bessie is town for healthy suspicion. HS slightly town. Me and Maven neutral. LG town-leaning. PW slightly scummy (tangential posting with light tone). somitomi slightly scummy trending downwards due to his recent comments about rules etc. wam slightly scummy due to circling back to me. Follows up on the last point after wam's response.
I don't have any real issues with moody, although the scum read on somitomi nags me a bit as a possible attempt to jump on an apparently easy wagon. His lack of reasoning for some reads is fairly typical for moody, IIRC.

@moody - in your reads list, you don't really explain your town lean on Hari Seldon or LaserGuy. Please do. Also, re. wam circling back round to me being scummy, why is it any more suspicious than him picking somebody else to pick?

Posting what I've got here now. Will follow soon-ish with Peaceful Whale, somitomi and wam reads.
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Madge » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:52 pm UTC

Votals:

Somitomi - (1) - laserguy
wam - (1) - somitomi

Day 1 ends in 3 days, 7 hours, 7 minutes
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:38 pm UTC

Peaceful Whale:
Spoiler:
Joke votes bessie for being obviously town again. Explicitly states that it is a joke. Switches votes to moody again, explicitly noted as a joke again. Fixes punctuation in next post. Asks about what FoS stands for. Finds "no night chat" interesting (indicates may not know about the latter either way). Weird corrections follow that. Unvotes and explains why he voted for bessie with an answer that doesn't really answer his apparent opening post contradiction. Promises not to lynch moody right away. Explains his comments re. FoS, and sounds a bit defensive about his punctuation correction. Has no current suspicions, and likes to compare people.
Regarding PW's punctuation correctness - he did in last game go back and correct himself several times, and I see no reason to disbelieve his response. As he plays more games, I expect him to slowly get better and take more time over his posts, and this will be a natural consequence of doing so. His opening seems fairly typical of what I've seen from him so far, although the relative lack of pressure up until now on him is a bit different to Crossover where he thought he was going to get lynched early D1. I also have no issues with his FoS question - I didn't know it's exact definition, although I understood roughly what I meant from context, much as PW has explained is the case for him. I don't like his lack of reads or opinions, but this is consistent with how he played in Crossover initially. I think the fact that he thought there was no night chat is a little bit of a stretch for a true mafia to attempt, especially one like PW, so I'm putting him as marginal town for now.

@Peaceful Whale - please could you explain what you meant by the set of posts regarding day/night chat, ending with this one. What did you find interesting? What were you trying to add/correct with your second and third posts (in other words if you rewrote the whole thing as one paragraph, what would it say)?

Also @Peaceful Whale, you never answered my question about why you thought it would be LYLO tomorrow if there's an indie. Please answer it.

Finally, do you have any reads now that there are a few posts? If you had to kill somebody now, who would it be, and why?

somitomi:
Spoiler:
Joke votes wam in opening post, with a bit of flavour joking. Thinks private chats being daychats will mean shorter nights. Gets into a big discussion with LG and to a lesser extent wam over daychat/night length/rules reading and so on. FoSses wam for his vote on me for my joke post. Without knowing somitomi's role in the FaiD mafia, this post is interesting in the big discussion, because it suggests that he didn't understand how night interacted with his own role in that game, or that he is trying to defend himself with fake reasoning. I like the tone of his response [url=http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?p=4264521#p4264521]here /url] though. Most recent post includes some brief reads, which mostly line up with my own.
I think somitomi spent too much time getting distracted by the chat conversation, to the detriment of his scum-hunting. I've been flip-flopping a bit as I've read the discussion about where I sit on it and have concluded in favour of somitomi, in that his mistake/interpretation was genuine (doesn't rule him out of being scum though) - I often read the rules and miss half of the important ones on my first time through. Nothing else particularly stands out to me. I'd appreciate a bit more depth on the reasoning behind his reads at some point though. Slightly townie.

wam:
Spoiler:
Votes me. Asks me about me naming the opening death character. Switches vote to PW for SDK mentoring him. Also missed chats are day chats and mildly suspicious of somitomi for it (following LG). Thinks 6/2/1 spec is likely, with scum having some powers to offset slight disadvantage. Explains himself to bessie. Finds somi/LG chat town v town (explained as gut feel). Follows up on his question to me (I hadn't posted in between him asking it and that). Points to LG and somi posts indicating townieness. A few other scattered comments that don't add up to much in the same post. Posts reads list (bessie, somitomi, Maven, PW, LaserGuy) slight town, Hari Seldon neutral, me and moody scum. Votes me because he thinks that I would have revealed information from a scum role PM. Backs down and unvotes due to popular demand. Follows HS read on PW. Finds jumping around a scum tell.
@wam: Lots of questions for you.
1) Why do you think Peaceful Whale linking to scum games to contrast his punctuation style a scum slip?
2) Do you still believe the reason you had for voting for me? If not, what exactly changed your mind, (i.e. more specifically than consensus, after all consensus could be wrong)? If so, why did you unvote?
wam wrote:Somi - See earlier post about their interaction with Jimbob
3) Errrm - what interaction? Prior to this post, I don't think I've interacted with somitomi once.
4) Do you still consider me to be scum? If not, who are your top two scum now and why?
5) How did my response push you into voting me?

I really don't like wam's play so far. In particular, his serious vote for me was incredibly poorly thought out, in my opinion. How on earth would scum!me make that sort of mistake in the opening post??? Aside from that, his PW scum slip isn't a slip, as far as I can see. He's just taken it as one because Hari Seldon said it was without paying any attention to the context. He's also made other mistakes, suggesting he's not paying much attention to the detail of the thread at times, although I accept that this might be him being busy. He also jumped on somitomi initially in a way that distinctly felt to me like looking for an easy target. Finally, the worst point is him backing down on his vote on me, after a couple of comments from other players without making any attempt to justify it further or convince anybody. He's unwilling to go against the consensus of two or three others.

Vote wam

Other possible scum candidates: LaserGuy, Maven, maybe moody at a distance. All others are probably town.
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:46 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@LaserGuy - you asked Hari Seldon why he found my opening post so townie. Why did you not ask about any of the other posts from other players he gave big points to (positive or negative)?


To me, this stood out as the only large score (>1) that I did not feel was at least plausibly motivated, and this point alone was sufficient to make you his strongest townread when IMHO your content was essentially null. While I'm interesting the scoring from an academic viewpoint, I don't actually think that nitpicking about whether a particular post should be worth +0.5 or +0.25 in HS's scoring system is going to be particularly productive in terms of figuring out his alignment.

Overall, what do you think about HS?


I'm on the fence as to whether or not the scoring system is simply an exercise in active lurking, or a useful way to convey the strength of his opinions. Looking at the actual opinions in there rather than just the scores, I see some fairly good thought processes and obviously some significant understanding of the game. I'm not sure what to make of the fact that he's apparently gone back and has apparently read a bunch of past games to get meta on some of the players here (including at least parts of Crossover (!)). This seems... a bit excessive at this point in time. That all said, I'm not getting any scummy vibes from him at this point. He's one of my stronger townreads.

As useless speculation, I would say that there's a non-trivial chance he's an alt account of one of the regular/semi-regular players in the forums that who wants to try something new.

In fact how about everybody else as well?


Putting together my reads now. Will have them up in a bit.

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Hari Seldon » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:12 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Hari Seldon wrote:JimBob

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:A) My, my. How inconsiderate of these petty humans causing all this disruption to our little social gathering. Poor Alfred getting staked like that. It must be such a painful way to go. I would hate it to happen to me.


A) Providing a name for our dead friend gives me the impression that JimBob is being carefree and that he is genuinely getting into character. [2]


Why do you feel this is so strongly alignment indicative?
I believe my subconscious reasoning was something like this:

1. JimBob was the first player to post; therefore, he did not have a feel for the thread when making his post. I believe a Mafia would have reservation about making an eye catching post before getting a feel for the game.
2. JimBob added details to his RP that were not in the opening post. I believe that required a degree of creativity, albeit small degree. I believe that creativity requires a degree of immersion. Therefore, I believe that JimBob was immersed with his character. Being immersed with his charter would have required JimBob to have read the character theme in his role PM. Therefore, I believe that JimBob likely has a character that is a Town.

bessie wrote:
Hari Seldon wrote: D) This is a rather aggressive response to a question that wasn't accusatory. There is a high statistical rate that a Mafia will ask their partner a serious question within the first three pages. There is also a high statistical rate that a Mafia will display unwarranted aggression toward their partner during Day 1. I have both of these vibes from this post. [-1]
I’m intrigued by these statistics, as I've never thought about it this way, in that I haven't really researched it or run any numbers myself. But I assume there is also a high statistical rate that a town player will ask another player a serious question in the first three pages. And I’m pretty sure that there is a high statistical rate that town!bessie will display unwarranted aggression toward another player during Day 1. :P


The type of question is more important than the question being asked. Unwarranted aggression, questions that have an easy answer, questions that are reactive (rather than proactive), and questions that did not pass the minds of other payers are signs of a Mafia addressing their partner.

somitomi wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:No, I didn't choose to ignore that rule. I just do not believe there is any reason to interpret it to mean that nights will be very short, as was your initial claim, and this setup is not nightless, as you implied when you made the comparison to the FaiD game here. The idea that mafia would simply submit their night actions immediately and end the night without any discussion or planning had honestly never crossed my mind.

So we came to different conclusions from the same ruleset. I thought mafia would make their decision quicker than if they had to start the discussion at the end of the day, you don't. That's hardly "not knowing the rules" which you were accusing me at least up until here.
I believe the problem here is that you have to be lying at some point in this conversation. LaserGuy proved that in your recent game, Night did not at all work the way that you claimed . You can not expect us to believe that you played an entire game without knowing there was no Night phase.


jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@Hari Seldon - you have several places where you've given players 1 or more points for seemingly small comments (e.g. my opening post). Could you go into more detail as to why you feel so strongly about them, please? How did you decide on a number to give them?
The points stem from how strongly I feel about the tell. Why I feel so strongly usually requires introspection. I am happy to go into detail about anything specific.

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby bessie » Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:27 am UTC

somitomi wrote:Although apparently my initial post was right about night ending as soon as all actions are submitted, so I fail to see the point of all this.
somitomi wrote:No, it was actually correct as Hari Seldon has pointed out. I should've checked the rules when you called me out for being wrong, but I assumed you read the rules thoroughly. It seemed reasonable that my mistake came from having played a game with different rules very recently, but actually there was no mistake in the first place. I may not have read the rules very thoroughly (evidenced by how easily I was concinced of being wrong), but then you didn't either or you chose to ignore the part where it says "nigths wil end early if all actions are submitted" twice.
At the present whether or not you made a mistake in the first place (and the rule itself) is no longer as interesting as your reaction. You didn’t know the rule, you possibly never read it, and when someone contradicted you, still didn’t bother to read it and form your own opinion or interpretation. You automatically went into damage control mode, and you’ve been there since the first page. You’re acting like someone that got caught doing something wrong, not like someone that made an honest mistake.

wam wrote: Peaceful whale's "other scum games, slip" looks bad and is making me re-evaluate my read. Now it's finished I will talk more aobut the FAID game. Basically PW pinged from the beginning, which they have not done this time and there were links with his scummate that stood out. Big call was a successful cop giving us two linked roles for both scum!
For people that don’t have access to FaiD (anyone can join but you need to request access so it may take a couple days), or for those of us (me) that don’t have time to read it right now, if you’re going to use examples from another game to support a read in this game, please also supply any relevant information or links in thread (reminder links to FaiD will not work if you don’t have access). Like, I assume Peaceful Whale was mafia and you were town in that game? And how does the cop result fit in? Was he only caught because of a cop result?

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:No particular pings from bessie to me one way or another. Most of what she posts looks similar in style to her usual play - she is aggressive as usual (she's Fossed 4 of the 8 other players). Her concern about moody's gambler's fallacy seems a little bit of a stretch, maybe. To me, it seemed quite clear that moody was pointing it out about PW's read on bessie specifically, because PW had explicitly said it about bessie. Bessie is somewhere in mid-range territory currently, leaning slightly town based purely on the fact that the majority of players are presumably town.

@bessie - what are your current thoughts on Maven and LaserGuy?
Re moody’s gambler’s fallacy remarks. This was in response to Peaceful Whale saying I was probably town, which is statistically correct. moody pointed out that that I had the same chance of being scum as anyone else. I think this response seems forced, it would be more natural if PW said I was probably scum (which would be statistically incorrect).

Interesting you have a town lean on me because it is statistically more likely that I am town.

And jimbob, I’m not ignoring your question, I’m working on a reads list.

Hari Seldon wrote:2. JimBob added details to his RP that were not in the opening post. I believe that required a degree of creativity, albeit small degree. I believe that creativity requires a degree of immersion. Therefore, I believe that JimBob was immersed with his character. Being immersed with his charter would have required JimBob to have read the character theme in his role PM. Therefore, I believe that JimBob likely has a character that is a Town.
Yes but it’s possible for someone to become immersed in their character and role play or be creative even if they’re not town. Maybe it’s less likely, but, well, read the Shakespeare game, and you’ll see many fine examples of creativity from all alignments.

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Hari Seldon » Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:07 am UTC

bessie wrote:
Hari Seldon wrote:2. JimBob added details to his RP that were not in the opening post. I believe that required a degree of creativity, albeit small degree. I believe that creativity requires a degree of immersion. Therefore, I believe that JimBob was immersed with his character. Being immersed with his charter would have required JimBob to have read the character theme in his role PM. Therefore, I believe that JimBob likely has a character that is a Town.
Yes but it’s possible for someone to become immersed in their character and role play or be creative even if they’re not town. Maybe it’s less likely, but, well, read the Shakespeare game, and you’ll see many fine examples of creativity from all alignments.
The difference with Shakespeare is that all the characters were Shakespearean. There is a distinct difference in the character's personalities in this game and between the two sides. I do not expect that Jim would have been inclined to make the same post if he received the role of a rebellious teenager. He gave me more so the impression of a pompous upper class gentleman.

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Hari Seldon » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:16 am UTC

Page 2

Bessie

Spoiler:
bessie wrote:
wam wrote:Now i re read it it makes sense, I didn't explain myself properly. What I was saying was that spotting the day chat only thing was suspicious as it is what someone with chat would spot, not missing the night length.
A) Yes, I FoS’d somitomi for knowing about daychat even though it appears he did not read the rules carefully. And my FoS on you remains for pointing out that you allegedly didn’t know there was day chat. Again.

wam wrote: nothing has really stood out for me so far!
B) Well wam, if there has been nothing attention-grabbing for you to talk about, perhaps you can help generate some more interesting content. Can you expand on your town reads of LaserGuy and somitimi?

C) Hari Seldon, good to have you in the game, it’s always great having new people. You should probably make three more posts in the “General” forum because there are supposed to be some posting restrictions for new members until they have five posts (you might not be able to post links). Posts in Forum Games and Mafia do not count toward your official post count.

D) Peaceful Whale, you didn’t reply to my question in this post. Why did you vote for me for being “obviously town”? Do you think moody is scum? LaserGuy has placed a serious vote, so random voting stage is over, and you didn’t remove your vote.

E) somitomi and wam, you also posted after LaserGuy declared his vote serious. Care to justify not removing your RVS votes?

A) [0]
B) Bessie is using the same assertive voice that she used when asking LaserGuy his setup spec. Since there are probably not more than two mafia, I no longer suspect that Bessie responded aggressively to LaserGuy because he is her partner. However, I do think her question to him was out of place, and I still have a partner vibe between them. [0.5]
C) [0]
D) Bessie is digging deeply. I am getting the impression of genuine Scum hunting. [1]

bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Calling out three people in your first post? You are feeling very spirited this game. I like it :) Have you ever played with wam before? I know he's old guard but that's about it.
Games on this forum used to have much longer days (1 -2 weeks, extensions common). It’s only recently that we’ve shifted toward shorter cycles. I like it, especially the move toward daychat/short nights. But this means that there’s less time for idle chit chat and RVS on D1, and we need to start generating actual game content early. I never take part in RVS anyway, when I vote it will be serious. So if I see questionable content on page one, I’m not going to wait four days until I do a reads list to call it out.

wam was one of the veteran players in my first mafia game.
wam wrote:Answering Moody's question viewtopic.php?f=53&t=108901
That one too :) (LaserGuy’s question, not moody’s).

Peaceful Whale wrote:Bessie, even though you are probably town, and you have the towniest meta in the world, I voted for you becuase some day, you’ll be scum and will finally be lynched.
moody7277 wrote:Beware the Gambler's fallacy; bessie has the same ~1/4 chance of being scum as the rest of you.
And how does “~1/4 chance of being scum” conflict with “probably town”? Why the pointed note of caution toward me in particular, if I have the same odds of being scum as everyone else? FoS moody.

A) And Peaceful Whale, Hari Seldon asked you a question at the top of this page that you haven’t answered.

Peaceful Whale wrote:I think it’s pretty common for independents to be slightly anti-townie. However if we do have an independent, and 2 mafia, I very much doubt that they’d be high up on the priority lynch list. Given as an existence of indie would mean we could be at LYLO D2...

An Indie could actually be a help, especially if they’re a one shot, with a survive till the end win-con.

Are there really any specifically anti-town indies? Besides serial killer?
I would say that most indies are fundamentally anti-town, as their win condition is usually independent of the town win condition. For example, if a survivor chooses to help town, it is usually because town is in a better position to help them fulfill their win condition, not because town is the "good guys" so they want them to win. Indies like serial killer are more dangerous to town than a survivor because those type of roles usually don’t share wins.

Peaceful Whale wrote:So you shouldn’t worry moody, we won’t lynch you. (Right away) :P :lol:
B) That’s an interesting comment. Why don’t you think moody will be lynched? Do you think he’s town?

A) [1]
B) Bessie didn't take the time to trace why Peaceful Whale said this. Perhaps she is not looking deeply after all, only pretending to be by asking a lot of questions. [-1]


bessie wrote:
wam wrote:Jimbob the question is important. As the name of the first kill is exactly the sort of flavour information I would expect madge to put in a scum role PM.
A) I agree with somitomi on this one, it seems like a really unlikely slip for an experienced player.

Hari Seldon wrote: D) This is a rather aggressive response to a question that wasn't accusatory. There is a high statistical rate that a Mafia will ask their partner a serious question within the first three pages. There is also a high statistical rate that a Mafia will display unwarranted aggression toward their partner during Day 1. I have both of these vibes from this post. [-1]
I’m intrigued by these statistics, as I've never thought about it this way, in that I haven't really researched it or run any numbers myself. But I assume there is also a high statistical rate that a town player will ask another player a serious question in the first three pages. And I’m pretty sure that there is a high statistical rate that town!bessie will display unwarranted aggression toward another player during Day 1. :P

Hari Seldon wrote: A) Bessie, were the suspicions you declared for Peaceful Whale serious? If they were, what gave you the impression that Peaceful Whale's opening post was serious and

B) why do you think it is suspicious that Peaceful Whale is being mentored? Were the other suspicions made in your opening post serious?

C) If they were, what did you think was suspicious about the post you quoted from Somitomi?

D) What was your motivation behind asking LaserGuy for his setup spec?

A) Yes. I think it was an awkwardly forced joke, not natural at all. And he got the joke wrong; he should have made a joke about me being obviously scum after drawing only town role pms for almost the past two years straight. Odd to joke about someone being town and voting for them.

#hs1 Note that if Peaceful Whale had made a joke about me being obviscum, it would have made moody’s Gambler’s fallacy post seem less forced too.

#hs2 B) The mentoring FoS was a joke. SDK is widely viewed as an aggressive, crafty, and excellent player.

#hs3 C) The response was odd in context of Maven’s question. somitomi was thinking that Maven would be anxious to know the flip for an “Oooo I can’t wait to find out his alignment” reason, not for a “well what should I do with my night action” reason.

#hs4 D) Quid pro quo.

Peaceful Whale wrote:Nope, I feel like not enough people have actually posted enough to fully judge everyone else.
So do you have any reads? Please post your current impressions of the players in this game, even if they are only short sentences. There is more than enough content for you to do this.

LaserGuy wrote:I also found it interesting that she was willing to specify exact roles for Town and mafia, but didn't even give a hint at what she thought about the independent. So I wanted to know her thought process behind including the independent in the first place.
I don’t have a strong idea about an indie yet, except that I don’t believe we have a “traditional” every night killing, last man standing type serial killer.


#hs1) This does not seem like the type of thought that a Mafia would have or point out. [3]
#hs2) Bessie put a joke FoS in the midst of serious FoSs without making it distinct. This makes it hard to interpret her post, which does not serve Town. [-0.5]
#hs3) Bessie's FoS was serious, but she did not explain why in her original post. As with above, this makes it hard to interpret her post. Furthermore, what good does a FoS do if other players do not know why it was made. [-1]
#hd4) Bessie had no motivation for asking LaserGuy for his setup spec. [-0.5]
Town Points from Player this Page: 2
Town Points from Other Players this Page: 0.4 (Laser)
Activity Bonus: [(1/9) x ( 9 - 4 )] = 0.5
Town Points from Previous Total: -1.3
Total Town Points: 2.0


LaserGuy

Spoiler:
LaserGuy wrote:
somitomi wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:What does memory have to do with it? You said you thought the nights would be short because there is daychat.

I didn't remember the length of the night phase was fixed, therefore I (erroreously) assumed night phase ends as soon as all actions are submitted


Maybe I'm just being obtuse, but walk me through this. Speed of day/night cycles are mentioned right at the top of the rules:
Madge wrote:Speed: Day Phase lasts 5 days, with weekends counting as halftime. Night Phase 48 hours. Nights will end early if chatters are finished and all actions are received.


Even if you missed that one, it is mentioned again in a prominent place.
Madge wrote:Deadlines:
In general, days will last for 5 days. Nights will last for 2 days, or until all night actions are finished. Weekends will count as half time.


Daychat, on the other hand, isn't mentioned until near the end of the rule list, buried in the PM section.
Madge wrote:6. All chat is daychat.


I'm not sure I understand why you wouldn't have noticed either of those mentions of the length of night, but would notice that scum have daychat.

bessie wrote:FoS Peaceful Whale.
Double FoS Peaceful Whale.
FoS Somitimi.
FoS wam.


A) Calling out three people in your first post? You are feeling very spirited this game. I like it :) Have you ever played with wam before? I know he's old guard but that's about it.

A) I get a partner vibe from this. [-0.1]



LaserGuy wrote:
Hari Seldon wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:
bessie wrote:Welcome to the mafia forum Hari Seldon! Do you have any experience playing mafia? Also please let us know your preferred pronouns.

Initial setup spec (work in progress):
6 town – cop (with TBD restriction), doctor, tracker or watcher, 1-shot bulletproof townie, backup or bodyguard, and innocent child, two of which are masons
2 mafia - roleblocker, 1-shot strongman
1 independent that can win independently or with any faction


Why do you think 6-2-1 instead of 7-2?


I would like to know LasurGuy's motivation for asking this question. I will wait to explain why I am suspicious of this post and I will revise my impression when I have a better understanding of it. [-0.5]


I have found bessie to be fairly reliable as guessing setup specs in the past, so I am always interested in seeing what she puts forward and how it matches my own impressions. As I noted, in this sized game, I would generally expect a 7-2 setup especially coming from Sabrar, since Sabrar is quite... obsessed... with game balance and has commented unfavorably on setups that start with Town at one mislynch to MYLO/LYLO in the past, so bessie's inclusion of an indie was surprising to me. I also found it interesting that she was willing to specify exact roles for Town and mafia, but didn't even give a hint at what she thought about the independent. So I wanted to know her thought process behind including the independent in the first place.

Why do you think it is interesting that it is the third game in a row that someone has done the "I'm obvtown because I didn't know scum have daychat thing"?


Somebody forgetting that scum have daychat came up in both Fridge mafia (by plytho, scum) and Crossover (by Znirk, town) quite recently and the point was discussed at length in both those games and in GoJoe in the interim. It's an interesting coincidence, if nothing else. Like bessie, I'm somewhat skeptical of treating this as a towntell, which, theoretically it ought to be since scum should know their own chat settings, and more inclined to treat this as potential WIFOM--especially from an apparently extremely experienced player.

Did you miss that the rules say Night will end if all actions are submitted?


No, I just think it's unlikely that such a rule will be relevant as long as there are players able to chat.

[0]

LaserGuy wrote:
Hari Seldon wrote:JimBob

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:A) My, my. How inconsiderate of these petty humans causing all this disruption to our little social gathering. Poor Alfred getting staked like that. It must be such a painful way to go. I would hate it to happen to me.


A) Providing a name for our dead friend gives me the impression that JimBob is being carefree and that he is genuinely getting into character. [2]


Why do you feel this is so strongly alignment indicative?

somitomi wrote:Right. Two days ago I was still in FaiD mafia, where (similarly to this game) all chats were daychats but (unlike this game) night ended as soon as possible (i.e. when all actions were submitted). That game ended for me right as this game started and I probably confused the two games momentarily while writing this post.


This doesn't appear to be how that game worked at all. That game was completely nightless. You had to submit your actions before the end of the night, and night took as long as it did for the mod to show up and process the actions. Here's the relevant rule from that game:

MasterOfAll wrote:This is a nightless format game. If you have a night power that you want to use, please send me a PM before the end of the day. Nights will only last long enough for me to process actions. Players with the ability to PM other players may use this ability all through the day.

[0]

LaserGuy wrote:
somitomi wrote:Bah. Should have learned to check instead of relying on my memory... :oops:
Although apparently my initial post was right about night ending as soon as all actions are submitted, so I fail to see the point of all this.


The point is the same as it was in the beginning. It looks a lot like that you just didn't read the rules at all at the start of the game... you made an assumption about how the night phase works this game based on how it worked in your previous game that turned out to be incorrect, and you've been backpedaling ever since. But you knew that scum have daychat. If you haven't read the rules, why would you know this? Perhaps because you're scum and have access to a private chat.

Peaceful Whale wrote:Are there really any specifically anti-town indies? Besides serial killer?


A) Don't see if anyone answered you here.

Most indies are considered at least nominally anti-town at least in the sense that they don't share Town's wincon. A survivor, for example, can win with Town certainly, but since they can also win with scum, they're more likely just to swing the game in favor of whichever side is already winning. Serial killers are quite anti-town, especially in a setup this sized. Of the less common variants? Jesters are pretty anti-town since they effectively force town to burn a lynch. Lynchers tend to be anti-town since they're usually trying to divert the lynch to a townie (though if their target happens to be mafia, I suppose they'd be more pro-town).

A) If LaserGuy and Bessie are partners, I would suspect LaserGuy to be keenly aware of Bessie's postings. [0.5]

LaserGuy wrote:
somitomi wrote:
LaserGuy wrote: you made an assumption about how the night phase works this game based on how it worked in your previous game that turned out to be incorrect


No, it was actually correct as Hari Seldon has pointed out. I should've checked the rules when you called me out for being wrong, but I assumed you read the rules thoroughly. It seemed reasonable that my mistake came from having played a game with different rules very recently, but actually there was no mistake in the first place. I may not have read the rules very thoroughly (evidenced by how easily I was concinced of being wrong), but then you didn't either or you chose to ignore the part where it says "nigths wil end early if all actions are submitted" twice.


No, I didn't choose to ignore that rule. I just do not believe there is any reason to interpret it to mean that nights will be very short, as was your initial claim, and this setup is not nightless, as you implied when you made the comparison to the FaiD game here. The idea that mafia would simply submit their night actions immediately and end the night without any discussion or planning had honestly never crossed my mind.

A) Reading back through your progression on this, I can actually see how you could have read that rule and could have still ended up where you are now, though the route is somewhat circuitous, beyond that I find it bizarre that you don't know how the night mechanics worked in your previous game. B) What was your power that game?

moody wrote:In before: I know that the town -> scum ranking looks an awful lot like the alphabetical list; bessie really skews that. :P


You have PW, somi and wam all as "slightly scummy". Which of them is your strongest scumread at this point?

A) This signifies objectivity on LaserGuy's behalf. [1]
B) This also signifies objectivity on LaserGuy's behalf. It conveys that LaserGuy is piecing together his outlook of Somitomi by obtaining pertinent information. [1]

LaserGuy wrote:
moody7277 wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:You have PW, somi and wam all as "slightly scummy". Which of them is your strongest scumread at this point?


somi > wam > PW


moody wrote:somi- joke votes wam. byplay with LaserGuy regarding their error on nights (I don't read anything into things like that), explains it as rememberance from previous game. Foses wam over perceived overreaction to jimbob's first post. slightly scummy, but trending down based on the last couple of posts.


What in particular in the last couple of posts of somitomi's do you find scummy?


LaserGuy is investigating the outlook by a player of the main player LaserGuy is pushing. This signifies more objectivity on LaserGuy's behalf. LaserGuy's approach to his pushing of Somitomi does not give me the impression of being driven by an agenda [1]. I also do not think LaserGuy would ask this question if LaserGuy was Somitomi's partner. [0.1]
Town Points from Player this Page: 3.1
Town Points from Other Players this Page: 0.5 (Bessie)
Activity Bonus: [(1/9) x ( 9 - 1 )] = 0.9
Town Points from Previous Total: 0.9
Total Town Points: 5.4


Somitomi

Spoiler:
somitomi wrote:
bessie wrote:Care to justify not removing your RVS votes?

A) Nope, it just occured to me that I should
unvote wam.
LaserGuy wrote:Maybe I'm just being obtuse, but walk me through this.

Right. Two days ago I was still in FaiD mafia, where (similarly to this game) all chats were daychats but (unlike this game) night ended as soon as possible (i.e. when all actions were submitted). That game ended for me right as this game started and I probably confused the two games momentarily while writing this post.
Actually I was a little worried about playing two games at once, but luckily the other game ended just in time. Or so I thought...
LaserGuy wrote:I'm not sure I understand why you wouldn't have noticed either of those mentions of the length of night, but would notice that scum have daychat.

B) It's not that I noticed once thing and didn't notice the other, it's that I remembered one thing and misremembered the other sometime later. Maybe it's a little wishful thinking, I liked the nightless setup for its lack of idle periods.

A) Somitomi is not groveling or pandering. [0.5]
B) Mafia are usually on high alert. I think that at this point, as a Mafia, Somitomi would have double checked the rules and seen that he was initially correct, or his partner would have told him. [1.5]

somitomi wrote:
Peaceful Whale wrote:Just wait until Bessie starts tunneling. :mrgreen:

A) What do you mean by that? And who is this adressed to?
wam wrote:Jimbob the question is important. As the name of the first kill is exactly the sort of flavour information I would expect madge to put in a scum role PM.

B) When I first read that post I thought Jimbbob made the name up as flavor and he basically said he did exactly that. I don't see what warrants a vote here.
FoS wam

A) I had this question also. Somitomi asked this a decent time after Peaceful Whale made that post, so Somitomi was probably rereading when this question occurred to him [0.5]. I also don't think a Mafia would ask this sort of weak clarification question to their partner spontaneously. [0.1]
B) I also suspect Wam for this. Somitomi was the first player to make this point against Wam. [1.5]


somitomi wrote::shock: Holy schwarz that is a lot of text, not to mention the highly mathematical approach.
Hari Seldon wrote:Somitomi, what is the game that you played recently with short night phases? Also, what are your preferred pronouns?

This one (you need to join the usergroup "Truly Free" to see that subforum)
I've been in two other games so far: X-men and Bin Chicken.
Hari Seldon wrote:double checking the rules and correcting LaserGuy

I actually didn't double-check, I assumed LaserGuy checked the rules thoroughly before calling me out. :oops:

[0]

somitomi wrote:
bessie wrote:C) The response was odd in context of Maven’s question. somitomi was thinking that Maven would be anxious to know the flip for an “Oooo I can’t wait to find out his alignment” reason, not for a “well what should I do with my night action” reason.

Yes, the action-aspect of it eluded me until sometime after posting that.
LaserGuy wrote:This doesn't appear to be how that game worked at all. That game was completely nightless. You had to submit your actions before the end of the night, and night took as long as it did for the mod to show up and process the actions.

A) Bah. Should have learned to check instead of relying on my memory... :oops:
Although apparently my initial post was right about night ending as soon as all actions are submitted, B) so I fail to see the point of all this.

A) This is the third time Somitomi used his memory as an excuse [-1]. Misremembering a Nightless game for a short Night game is not believable. [-1]
B) I do not have a guilty impression from Somitomi's postings. He is not groveling or pandering. [1]

somitomi wrote:
LaserGuy wrote: you made an assumption about how the night phase works this game based on how it worked in your previous game that turned out to be incorrect

No, it was actually correct as Hari Seldon has pointed out. I should've checked the rules when you called me out for being wrong, but I assumed you read the rules thoroughly. It seemed reasonable that my mistake came from having played a game with different rules very recently, but actually there was no mistake in the first place. I may not have read the rules very thoroughly (evidenced by how easily I was concinced of being wrong), but then you didn't either or you chose to ignore the part where it says "nigths wil end early if all actions are submitted" twice.

Instead of groveling, Somi turned the conversation onto LaserGuy. [0.5]
Town Points from Player this Page: 3.6
Town Points from Other Players this Page: 0.1 (Laser)
Activity Bonus: [(1/9) x ( 9 - 2)] = 0.8
Town Points from Previous Total: -1.6
Total Town Points: 2.9


Peaceful Whale

Spoiler:
Peaceful Whale wrote:Unvote

Bessie, even though you are probably town, and you have the towniest meta in the world, I voted for you becuase some day, you’ll be scum and will finally be lynched.

A) I haven’t been on the forum for a while (just woke up) so that’s why my joke Vote was still on moody, sorry about that.

A) This is an excuse for something that did not need one. [-0.1]

Peaceful Whale wrote:A) I think it’s pretty common for independents to be slightly anti-townie. However if we do have an independent, and 2 mafia, I very much doubt that they’d be high up on the priority lynch list. Given as an existence of indie would mean we could be at LYLO D2...

An Indie could actually be a help, especially if they’re a one shot, with a survive till the end win-con.

Are there really any specifically anti-town indies? Besides serial killer?

A) This is a good analysis. [0.2]

Peaceful Whale wrote:So you shouldn’t worry moody, we won’t lynch you. (Right away) :P :lol:

This is funny. I do not have partner vibes from this. [0.1]

Peaceful Whale wrote:
wam wrote:When I used to play day chat was very rare!

Laser and somi interaction is coming off town v town to me.


This is who I was talking to, reffering to when Bessie tunneled plytho last game, even though they were both town.

It was not obvious what Peaceful Whale was referring to originally. I have a suspicion that the obscurity is due to Peaceful Whale shying away from addressing his partner directly. [-0.2]

Peaceful Whale wrote:I have seen FoS before, and kinda understood it from the context of the sentence. However, Somi has just used it several times, and it was bugging me that I don’t know what it was.

Regarding my increased use of punctuation and correct grammar. It doesn’t necessarily mean I’m scum, A) look at my other scum games. FaiD, and Fridge. Is it possible that I’m maturing? Being more careful with writing?

What I wrote is how you view me, it’s in my best interests to sound and appear like a well rounded adult. (Ignore the fact that I’m 14). And with the lack of parentheses.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
:mrgreen:
I believe this is a genuine Scum slip. I feel more strongly about this after mulling it over than I did initially. [-2]


Peaceful Whale wrote:
Hari Seldon wrote:
Peaceful Whale wrote:After, SDK has yet to contact me though

Thank you. Do you have any suspicions currently?


Sorry, it appears I have missed it.
[-1]

Nope, I feel like not enough people have actually posted enough to fully judge everyone else. I like to compare people... it’s still early D1, and I’m willing to wait until the party gets going before I point at people and cry wolf. Though in this case it’d be wolf killer(?). (Is it werewolf/vampire hunter or something else. A) scum, feel free to elaborate)

A) I am not certain how I feel about this. [0]


Peaceful Whale wrote:
Hari Seldon wrote:
Peaceful Whale wrote:
Hari Seldon wrote:
Peaceful Whale wrote:After, SDK has yet to contact me though

Thank you. Do you have any suspicions currently?


Sorry, it appears I have missed it.
[-1]

Nope, I feel like not enough people have actually posted enough to fully judge everyone else. I like to compare people... it’s still early D1, and I’m willing to wait until the party gets going before I point at people and cry wolf. Though in this case it’d be wolf killer(?). (Is it werewolf/vampire hunter or something else. scum, feel free to elaborate)
Bessie pointed it out on this page and I pointed it out again in my Page 1 evaluation, which you responded to. It does not seem probable that you missed it.


It appears I have either read over it, or have forgotten to answer it.

Peaceful Whale has been paying close attention. I do not believe that he missed the question three times. [-0.5]

Peaceful Whale wrote:However it is answered now.

[0]
Town Points from Player this Page: -2.5
Town Points from Other Players this Page: 0.1 (Somi), -0.1 (Wam)
Activity Bonus: [(1/9) x ( 9 - 0 )] = 1
Town Points from Previous Total: -2.1
Total Town Points: -3.6

Moody

Spoiler:
moody7277 wrote:
Peaceful Whale wrote:Bessie, even though you are probably town,


Beware the Gambler's fallacy; bessie has the same ~1/4 chance of being scum as the rest of you. I'm agreeing with the 2-man scum theory since one mislynch to LYLO is a bit harsh, especially for Madge, and doesn't allow for town powers to come into play. I'd put the possibility split between 7/2 and 6/2/1 at 50/50; it's popped up often enough that having one is more likely even in a small game than otherwise.

@Maven89: If we do have an independent, you still planning to push hard on them should they announce themselves?

Unvote
Moody's postings are confident when juxtaposed to his postings in Crossover. [1]

moody7277 wrote:
wam wrote:Moody thats an odd question for Maven, is there some background I'm missing.


Maven was one of the people from the Smashboards site who participated in the big game that just finished. Their policy toward independently aligned roles was more aggressive than the typical xkcd response, especially wrt Madge.

[0]

moody7277 wrote:A) First off, weird that wam and Hari have seemingly diametricly opposite read lists (especially regarding me and jimbob vs. Maven and PW).

bessie- setup spec with the (to my impression) relatively new power predictions, figure this twist is null but might hide a breadcrumb she can point to later. extends remarks on it when poked by Maven. some suspicions of somi for missing game mechanic and wam for his inconsistency on the same point. suspicious of me from my interaction with PW, piqued about PW not wanting to lynch me "yet". Basically seems to be properly unsure of everyone (except maybe Hari). town

Hari Seldon- couple of tangential posts, then a different take on building a reads post. The activity bonus is something I find debatable. Ends up with PW and Maven at bottom. Couple more posts expressing his concern over PW. slightly town.

jimbob- joke votes somi, setup spec with a general guess at power level for town. questions for PW and wam. Unlike wam, I figured his "Alfred" remark was a joke from the start. neutral.

LaserGuy- joke votes somi. answers Maven on flip and lynch mechanics. discussion with bessie on setup spec in which he is firmly against an indep (for co-mod reasons). firms vote on somi after their response on chat mechanics, also seems to be suspicous of wam for his part. town-leaning, with the "no, absolutely no indeps" as a possible double-fake.

Maven- culture clarification question, questions bessie on her power breakdown spec. dismisses meta, but is satisfied with bessie's extended remarks on power spec. dismisses my culture question on indeps, then suspects it could be a soft-claim B) (I suppose it could look like that). neutral

PW- couple of joke votes, couple of newbie posts, byplay with bessie that I commented on. C) slightly anti-indep. not ready to make reads list. seems to have mostly tangential content with a light tone. slightly scummy.

somi- joke votes wam. byplay with LaserGuy regarding their error on nights (I don't read anything into things like that), explains it as rememberance from previous game. D) Foses wam over perceived overreaction to jimbob's first post. slightly scummy, but trending down based on the last couple of posts.

wam- joke votes jimbob, switches to PW. discussion of the daychat thing, setup spec agreeing with 6/2/1. laser and somi both seems town. offers up meta. impressions list with bessie & laserguy most townie, me and jimbob at bottom. votes jimbob. would be neutral except that circling back to jimbob is a little convenient, so slightly scummy.

In before: I know that the town -> scum ranking looks an awful lot like the alphabetical list; bessie really skews that. :P

A) I am surprised the Moody noticed this. On the one hand, he would be more likely to notice it if he were Wam's partner. On the other hand, it may signify that he is investigating connections. [0]
B) I have a Town vibe from this. [0.5]
C) This is not correct. Peaceful Whale concluded that indeps are not a threat. [-0.2]
D) I am curious why this does not appear to hold much weight in his reading since he suspects Wam for the same reason.

moody7277 wrote:
wam wrote:Why is circling back a scumtell. I always found the opposite, jumping between candidates trying to find a lynch target scumier!


Jumping between candidates is not scummy. It's a bit further down the road from bessie's universal suspicion that seems like proper townie paranoia with the added benefit that scum may get nervous and slip. It's that you joke voted jimbob and are now coming up with reasons to keep on him. Now, it is possible that you picked scum right off, but scum might also try to use that to generate a mislynch.
Almost all of Moody's posts leave me with a Town impression. [0.2]

moody7277 wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:You have PW, somi and wam all as "slightly scummy". Which of them is your strongest scumread at this point?


somi > wam > PW
This does not seem right, unless I am interpreting it backwardly. [0]
Town Points from Player this Page: 1.5
Town Points from Other Players this Page: 0.1 (Whale)
Activity Bonus: [(1/9) x ( 9 - 2)] = 0.8
Town Points from Previous Total: 2.7
Total Town Points: 5.1

Moody, is your strongest Scum read PW or Somi? Also, you suspect Wam for circling back to JimBob. Somitomi was the first player to suspect this. Does Somitomi's suspicion influence your reading?

Wam

Spoiler:
wam wrote:unvote

At the time I felt we were still in rvs one players proclamation doesn't really change that.

The town read is just gut feel tbh. Don't think I can detail it out more. Will have a read through and see if I can put anything behind it.

[0]

wam wrote:Right having re read and had some time for a change.

1) Jimbob you never answered my question how did you know he was called alfred?

2) in the laser guy somi argument
This post from somi
somitomi wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:What does memory have to do with it? You said you thought the nights would be short because there is daychat.

I didn't remember the length of the night phase was fixed, therefore I (erroreously) assumed night phase ends as soon as all actions are submitted. Possibly because that was the case in another game I played quite recently, where night was practically nonexistent as a result.
Peaceful Whale wrote:In all my games scum has had day chat, though the no night chat is interesting.

I was under the impression that night-chat was the "default", at least the newbie game had nightchat IIRC.


A) Comes across as frustrated town to me.

B) This laser guy post comes across as town as well

LaserGuy wrote:
somitomi wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:According to rules, nights are 48 hours. Interesting that you noticed the part about chats but not about nights.


Uh-oh, me and my lousy short-term memory.
Also, what did I just say about quoting me on that? :P


What does memory have to do with it? You said you thought the nights would be short because there is daychat.

My vote is now serious.

wam wrote:I had also missed the all chats are daychats in the opening post, so supciouns at somi for that one.


Third game in a row where somebody has done the "I'm obvtown because I didn't know scum have daychat thing". Interesting.


C) Moody thats an odd question for Maven, is there some background I'm missing.

D) Peaceful whale is giving me a different impression to our FAID game and which is making me lean towards town. I don't want to add to this yet as that game is still ongoing but we are both dead!

E) Answering Moody's question viewtopic.php?f=53&t=108901

Was a long time ago! Not sure if we played any others thats just the one I found first.

If anyone wants a meta read of me, if you search by first post only in the mafia subforum you will find all the games I have played and modded. 102 results, 101 games and the pronouns thread!

NOTE IF YOU ARE NOT CAREFUL WHEN USING SEARCH YOU CAN ACCIDENTALLY SEE SPOILERS

A) There is no indication of frustration in that post. [-0.5]
B) Wam did not explain why he felt this post was a town tell. [-0.2]
C) This question is inconsequential. [-0.5]
D) I don't believe Peaceful Whale has done anything to warrant this read. [-0.1]
E) Wam does not appear to be paying very close attention. [-0.1]

wam wrote:
Maven89 wrote:
Wam, if the day was going to end right now, and you had to pick one person to be lynched (no non-lynch), who would you pick?


Good question

Based on what I have so far put together the list below

Alphabetical within groups as thats what you get sorting by author

Leaning Town particular order)
Bessie - Like the content, asking questions stating suspicions etc
Laserguy - Mostly setup spec to start fair enough, followed by the pressure on somi. See above for town read
Maven - Setup spec again, A) plus good content in pushing me for an answer as when I got that question I realised I had just been stating town reads.
Peaceful whale - See earlier based on feeling compared to last game
Somi - See earlier post about their interaction with Jimbob

Netural
Hari - Not enough content (2 posts) for any real reads, will await more content before making a judgement.


Leaning Scum
Jimbob - See Below
Moody - Quite a few posts no real content is the impression I got reading just his posts

B.1) Jimbob the question is important. As the name of the first kill is exactly the sort of flavour information I would expect madge to put in a scum role PM.

Maven, Based on the above it would be a jimbob lynch as number 1 and B.2) a long way behind that moody.

So

Vote Jimbob

Ninja'd by bessie, I'm going back to re-read that one and see how I did!

A) I have the impression that Wam is pandering or talking to his partner. [-0.5][0.1, Maven]
B) So, Wam's original vote wasn't pseudoserious, it was seriousserious [-0.1, Jim]. This also invalidates my rationale that Wam would not switch his vote to Peaceful Whale if they were partners [-0.1, Whale]. If Wam believed that he had a legitimate reason to vote Jim, I do not believe he would switch his vote to a joke, only to come back to it when expressly prompted [-2]. Wam said that Moody is a long way behind, which means that he must have felt pretty strongly about that point. That is a rather much. [-1]

wam wrote:Well that was a day at work I would rather not repeat! Based on my day my brain is not working, but here goes anyway.

A) First off no one agrees with my opinion on Jimbob's first post so I will bow to the majority opinion! It is definitely not something I would ever have come up with so hence my opinion.

Unvote Jimbob

Hari, that is not a style I have seen before but if it works it works.

B) Peaceful whale's "other scum games, slip" looks bad and is making me re-evaluate my read. Now it's finished I will talk more aobut the FAID game. Basically PW pinged from the beginning, which they have not done this time and there were links with his scummate that stood out. Big call was a successful cop giving us two linked roles for both scum!

@ Moody

C) Why is circling back a scumtell. I always found the opposite, jumping between candidates trying to find a lynch target scumier!

A) I can justify this on both ends. [0]
B) I am also not certain how I feel about this yet. [0]
C) It is not scummy to jump between targets. Circling back is certainly scummier. [-0.5]
Town Points from Player this Page: -5.6
Town Points from Other Players this Page: -0.2 (Whale)
Activity Bonus: [(1/9) x ( 9 - 3 )] = 0.7
Town Points from Previous Total: 1.8
Total Town Points: -3.3

Wam, what gave you the impression that Somitomi was frustrated in the post you quoted? What came across as town from the post you quoted by LaserGuy? Where do you stand now on Peaceful Whale?

Maven

Spoiler:
Maven89 wrote:
bessie wrote:
Note that I did very little setup spec the first two days of Crossover mafia, and was heavily FoS’d because it was so atypical of my meta.


Not really concerned with the meta part of it, tbh

bessie wrote:Why bodyguard/backup? With 9 players there are probably at most two investigative type roles (in my spec, cop and watcher/tracker). The backup would ensure that if both investigative roles were killed before D2 (lynch and NK) then town would get at least one investigation. Why innocent child? This is me gaming the game. Sabrar brings up innocent child in a lot of games so I’m speculating that he included a role of this type.


This is what I was looking for. Thank you.

moody7277 wrote:
@Maven89: If we do have an independent, you still planning to push hard on them should they announce themselves?


A) What value does this question have? I'll let this game speak to what I'll do

A) I have the instinct that this is a Town response. [0.5]

Maven89 wrote:A) My thoughts on the Bessie question is that there were several possibilities. She could be scum with scum-confirmed information about the roles, she could be scum throwing out random roles in the hopes that the "setup" she provides will stick and the town would be left with a false concept of the PRs, or she could have meta/mathmatical reasons to believe what she said. Her response shows the last, so I find that line of questioning closed.

B) Moody's question makes me wonder if he's an independent. That seems way too specific of a question to just throw out randomly.

C) I agree with Bessie that Wam constantly pointing out that he apparently didn't know about the day chat to be odd and a little too much "look at me I don't know scum things, I'm town"

Wam, if the day was going to end right now, and you had to pick one person to be lynched (no non-lynch), who would you pick?
A) I do not find it believable that Maven believed Bessie would be so overt if she were Scum. [-1.5]
B) I do not find it believable that Maven believed Moody would be so overt if he were Indy. [-0.5]
C) I have the instinct that Maven is picking things out to talk about, but without an investigative motivation behind them. [-0.1]
Town Points from Player this Page: -1.6
Town Points from Other Players this Page: -0.1 (Wam)
Activity Bonus: [(1/9) x ( 9 - 5)] = 0.4
Town Points from Previous Total: -2.3
Total Town Points: -3.6

JimBob

Spoiler:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Unvote

I'm visiting my parents this weekend, so am mostly restricted to occasional moments of phone reading and the odd post here and there, hence my lack of answer to wam's question until now.

@wam - my answer is that I don't know the name of the dead character. The comment was pure joke. Why did you consider my knowledge or otherwise of the character's name important?

@PW - how does the presence of an indie lead to LYLO tomorrow?

Opinions and reads will have to wait until tomorrow when I'll be back home and have more time.
[0]
Town Points from Player this Page: 0
Town Points from Other Players this Page: -0.1 (Wam)
Activity Bonus: [(1/9) x ( 9 - 6 )] = 0.3
Town Points from Previous Total: 2.7
Corrections from Previous Total: -0.1
Total Town Points: 2.8



LaserGuy 5.4
Moody 5.1
Somitomi 2.9
JimBob 2.8
Bessie 2.0

-Zero Point-

Wam -3.3
Peaceful Whale -3.6
Maven -3.6

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:15 am UTC

bessie:

Leaning Town. Early aggression looks good to me. She's obviously engaged in the game and is interacting well with all players. Curious to see how her reads turn out since she seems to already have an FoS on half the players.

This is a bit odd:
bessie wrote:Note that I did very little setup spec the first two days of Crossover mafia, and was heavily FoS’d because it was so atypical of my meta.

bessie, while it's true that you didn't do much setup spec in Crossover, my recollection is that the only people who were giving you hard time about this were Sabrar and BoomFrog (and possibly EGW borrowing their read). Was there someone else? Otherwise I'm not sure why you have this impression since the only people who would have been pushing you over this were mafia.

What is your impression of Hari Seldon?


Hari Seldon:

Strongly leaning Town. Commented a bit on him already here.
Hari Seldon wrote:1. JimBob was the first player to post; therefore, he did not have a feel for the thread when making his post. I believe a Mafia would have reservation about making an eye catching post before getting a feel for the game.
2. JimBob added details to his RP that were not in the opening post. I believe that required a degree of creativity, albeit small degree. I believe that creativity requires a degree of immersion. Therefore, I believe that JimBob was immersed with his character. Being immersed with his charter would have required JimBob to have read the character theme in his role PM. Therefore, I believe that JimBob likely has a character that is a Town.

I do not expect that Jim would have been inclined to make the same post if he received the role of a rebellious teenager. He gave me more so the impression of a pompous upper class gentleman.

This is a very clever read. Not only because I agree that the reasoning does point to jimbob being Town, but also because I don't believe that Hari is likely to have made this point were he scum.

@Hari, you have several strong scumreads at this point. Why aren't you voting?


jimbob:

Leaning Town. Post count is still pretty low for him at this point, but both of his reads posts look like detailed analytical work I expect from him. I hope to see him engage the thread more than he has so far, as I do tend to find him posting mostly reads/walls without actually interacting more consistent with his scum play (though I've been wrong about this as well). I like his push on wam in his reads, not so much his defense of Peaceful Whale, which I find a bit generous. I agree with Hari that the "Alfred" comment is more likely to have come from Town!jim than scum!jim. I find it odd that after playing for several years jimbob didn't know what FoS means. I'm sure it's come up before in one of the games we've played together.


Maven:

I was looking forward to playing this game with Maven as I had been really impressed with his (short-lived) content D1 in Crossover. Sadly, so far he has not impressed me. I'm hoping that his lack of activity or apparent interest is due to some RL reason and he gets more involved in the game going forward since he hasn't really posted anything of particular interest or significance at this point. Neutral for now, but I don't like the lurking.


moody:

I still don't care for how he does his reads, which are mostly just content summaries with a fairly tentative commentary (slightly townie/scummy, etc.), though looking back at his previous games this style of commentary does seem to be roughly consistent with how he always plays. When I pressed him a bit, he does seem to have more detailed impressions about why he believes his reads, though looking at his response about somitomi being his strongest scumread, I'm a bit confused because it looks like he has the argument backwards: He thinks somitomi knows too much about night activity, rather than the actual problem which was that somitomi didn't know enough. So this scumread doesn't actually seem well-motivated to me. Leaving him as neutral for now.

Peaceful Whale:

Doesn't seem as jumpy as he did in Crossover. I hope it's just that he's improving his play and growing more confident, but I can't overlook that his play this game seems much more consistent with how he played as scum in both WatchTower (the FaiD game) and Fridge, rather than Crossover/X-Men where he was town. Meta points to him being scum, though I actually really hope I'm proved wrong here.

I agree with others that this looks bad though:
Peaceful Whale wrote:It doesn’t necessarily mean I’m scum, look at my other scum games.



somitomi:

Discussed at length. I feel that somitomi made a slip early in the game about having information about scum having daychat, but not knowing about the rules regarding nights. I do see a version of events that could lead to this being a null tell, if I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he completely misunderstood how the night phase worked in his previous game, which I suppose might be possible if he were vanilla town or some similar role. My feeling is that it's more likely that this was a genuine slip, and he's been trying to evade or backtrack since. If so, his partner is likely Peaceful Whale, Maven, or maybe jimbob. Noting that PW also had some confusion about how nights were supposed to work this game. Scummy.


wam:

I'm suspicious of the early slip of him forgetting scum have daychat. I've seen both Town and scum players do this, and I don't find it particularly credible for a player with apparently 100 games under his belt and who is fairly actively engaged in this game to make. Setup spec is 6-2-1 and feels scum is at a disadvantage in this scenario, which again feels like a very strange comment for an experienced player or moderator to make.

wam wrote:Peaceful whale is giving me a different impression to our FAID game and which is making me lean towards town. I don't want to add to this yet as that game is still ongoing but we are both dead!


@wam: Now that this game is finished, can you comment on what you see is different between PW here and in that game?

Reads list is pretty weak. Basically only has jimbob as scummy based possibly on the Alfred comment. His town reads on both me and somitomi are just "This post looks townie" without any real explanation why. Backing off jimbob in the next post looks bad, and leaves him with no scum reads whatsoever. Not really much to like here at all. Scummy.


Town
LaserGuy
Hari Seldon
bessie
jimbob
moody
Maven
Peaceful Whale
somitomi
wam
Scum

Not sure about the ordering between somitomi/wam. I can see good reasons to vote either way. Hmm.

Vote wam

Pressure vote pending somitomi's response about his role in the FaiD game.

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:39 am UTC

I just reread PW's "other scum games" comment, as quoted by Hard Seldon and I suddenly realised what I assume everybody else find bad about it, namely the use of the word "other".

@Peaceful Whale - please explain what you meant when you said "other scum games".

@Laser Guy - to address the low post count, this game started on a weekend when I was away, and yesterday I didn't have the chance to fully catch up on my way into work as I was driving, so I was behind until the evening.

Regarding the FoS comment, it was only in my pre-starting-to-play reads and my first game or two that I didn't understand what it stood for.

Most of LaserGuy's reads are in line with mine. Ditto Hari Seldon, the exception being somitomi for LG.

On somitomi, Bessie mentioned that she felt he was in damage control mode. I completely agree with this, but I don't agree that this necessitates him being scum, as I feel that I've seen town do this often as well, including town!me on occasion in the past.

Bessie, having you as a town lean for statistical reasons was half-joke. If I ranked you out of 10 as likely town, based purely on your play so far and knowing nothing about the number of players in the game etc, then I'd put you at about 5-6. Of course, with presumably no more than 2 scum in this game, and assuming the range of townieness is evenly spread, that puts you into town-leaning territory.
LaserGuy wrote:As useless speculation, I would say that there's a non-trivial chance he's an alt account of one of the regular/semi-regular players in the forums that who wants to try something new.
I had exactly the same thought earlier. There's a little side-game going on in the back of my mind truing to figure out who it is!

That's all for now. I will look back later to make sure I've not missed anything whilst phone posting.
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby wam » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:24 pm UTC

Quick lunch phone post please excuse typos

Answers to jimbob

1. As you spotted the use of the word other.

2. Nope I take the reason for boring you back. Basically naming the guy who died first is not something I would ever imagine doing. Therefore in my mind it stood out as extra game information which is a scum tell.

Having had the other response all saying they think making up the name is perfectly plausible town getting into flavour play I decided I was wrong.

On a meta note I was never that big into flavour, I tended to play for the game not the flavour.

3. Confusion when doing my post I got the names muddled. Should have been laser

4. On you I need to 're read and see what else stands out as anything I had us8 biased by my earliernopion. Top scum is moody as per precious post. Vague wordings nothing original rec.

5. As I didn't believe making it up was a valid answer. See point 2.

Other quick answers to questions that stood out

@ laser I would say 100 games probably at least 80% had night only chat. Seems to have shifted since I played.
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby moody7277 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:28 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@moody - in your reads list, you don't really explain your town lean on Hari Seldon or LaserGuy. Please do. Also, re. wam circling back round to me being scummy, why is it any more suspicious than him picking somebody else to pick?


On Hari, the mathematically done reads list shows an interest in looking at players I find townie. As I said, I can quibble over some of the details, but the method looks good. The response to LaserGuy about you in this post look like an expansion of what I'd call playing lightheartedly and match my impression that you were trying to be funny.

On LaserGuy, pushing somi on their recollection looks like something town might do, particularly on a topic that important for strategy. Looked like he was tunnelling a bit on somi before he decided to pick at my reads list a bit. I figure that if there is an independent, I'm 35% on it being him.

Hari Seldon wrote:Moody, is your strongest Scum read PW or Somi? Also, you suspect Wam for circling back to JimBob. Somitomi was the first player to suspect this. Does Somitomi's suspicion influence your reading?


First part here. On the second part, I think I would discount a somi-wam scum team based on that as I don't think bussing would be in play that early.
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby somitomi » Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:44 pm UTC

Madge wrote:Votals:

Somitomi - (1) - laserguy
wam - (1) - somitomi

I unvoted wam here since it was a random vote.
LaserGuy wrote:Pressure vote pending somitomi's response about his role in the FaiD game.

I could initiate a daychat once, at any time I decided to.
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:56 pm UTC

somitomi wrote:I could initiate a daychat once, at any time I decided to.
To me, this sounds like a fair reason to not notice the difference between pseudo-nightless (night ends as soon as actions are processed) and short nights (last until all actions submitted), assuming it checks out. Wam/PW/Anybody else in that game able to confirm?

@somitomi, what is your current game plan for the next 24 hours?

@moody - what exactly is it that makes you think LaserGuy might be independent? How, if at all, does he feel different to other games? Also, you never answered my question to you about wam in the post you quoted.

Also @moody, I might be misinterpreting, but I believe that Hari Seldon is uncertain which way round is scummiest in that linked post. Is the left-hand end scummiest, or the right-hand?

I'm not totally convinced by wam's response. It's entirely possible that scum!wam thought that he could frame me for exactly the reason he originally claimed, but backed down when it was clear it was frowned upon. If I'm not mistaken, it also leaves him with only one scum read.

@wam - aside from moody, who else is scum in your opinion?
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby wam » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:09 pm UTC

My power was always active - invulberabiltiy. But based on the successful cop that makes sense for the mason chat.

@ jimbob. Good point yes right now I have one scum read. I will go back through the thread and see what u can find.
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby moody7277 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:25 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@moody - what exactly is it that makes you think LaserGuy might be independent? How, if at all, does he feel different to other games? Also, you never answered my question to you about wam in the post you quoted.


If there were to be an independent in the game, and the probability of that is still somewhere south of 50%, I think it's most likely LaserGuy because of his firm insitence here and here on the 7-2 over 6-2-1, in that second post he even metagames the co-mod. On you question on wam, I may have conflated it with the quesition from Hari on a similar but slightly different point. My reasoning on wam keeping on somi is that focusing on one person seems like lazy scumhunting, which would be scummy. Being open to more options on who might be scum, as I mentioned with bessie being a little suspicious of everyone, seems to fit in the "properly paranoid town" paradigm.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I might be misinterpreting, but I believe that Hari Seldon is uncertain which way round is scummiest in that linked post. Is the left-hand end scummiest, or the right-hand?


I was using greater than signs, so it was:

Least Scummy
PW
wam
somi
Most Scummy
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby wam » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:46 pm UTC

Reading through now in detail.

This post from Bessie stood out as that hadn't been my read so I went back and read Somi's posts in isolation.

bessie wrote:At the present whether or not you made a mistake in the first place (and the rule itself) is no longer as interesting as your reaction. You didn’t know the rule, you possibly never read it, and when someone contradicted you, still didn’t bother to read it and form your own opinion or interpretation. You automatically went into damage control mode, and you’ve been there since the first page. You’re acting like someone that got caught doing something wrong, not like someone that made an honest mistake.



As I see it there are two ways to read somi's posts.

1) as bessie pointed out overly defensive scum in damage control mode
2) townie who didn't read the rules properly and is getting frustrated at the obsession with this.

Now gut feel is 2 but I can see the arguments for 1.

I think a bigger issue reading through the posts in isolation is the very limited amount of other data. This post is the only one with any content other than arguing about the rules

Spoiler:
somitomi wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:No, I didn't choose to ignore that rule. I just do not believe there is any reason to interpret it to mean that nights will be very short, as was your initial claim, and this setup is not nightless, as you implied when you made the comparison to the FaiD game here. The idea that mafia would simply submit their night actions immediately and end the night without any discussion or planning had honestly never crossed my mind.

So we came to different conclusions from the same ruleset. I thought mafia would make their decision quicker than if they had to start the discussion at the end of the day, you don't. That's hardly "not knowing the rules" which you were accusing me at least up until here.

On a related note, I re-read the thread to formulate some early, vague reads:
Peaceful Whale: seems to be joking in a lot of his posts, which could be a way to be active without actually saying much. Very slightly suspicious
Hari Seldon: few posts with questions and one incredibly long analysis of everyone's content. I find some of the points they awarded odd, but nothing stood out too much. Neutral for now.
LaserGuy: participates in setup speculation, asks some questions and persistently questions me. Seens fairly townie to me.
moody7277: a little setup speculation, asked maven an odd question, their reads seem all right. Slightly townie (possible independent?)
wam: suspicions at me for noticing daychat, questions Jimbob about the name mentioned in the first post and votes him, later unvoting by "popular demand". Leaning towards scum
jimbobmacdoodle: only made two posts, wow. One is short speculation on the setup, other is answering wam's question about the name. Nothing suspicious other than the relative inactivity.
bessie: really detailed speculation on the setup and a bunch of FoS, a reasonable explanation of why she thinks certain roles might be in the game, replies to questions. Seems townie
Maven89: asks bessie about setup speculation, ducks out of the way of moody's question, analyses the reasons behind bessie's detailed setup spec. Neutral for now.

ninja by moody


In my mind that is scummier than the actual argument either way.

@ bessie and other short set of notes on the Faid game for those not aware

Spoiler:
Mafia was PW and Bio
Town, Somi, Angua, weeks, carlington
1/2 town 1/2 survivor wam

Day 1 suspicions were on PW and weeks, weeks got lynched. N1 no night kill
Day 2 angua as the role cop outed PW and Bio as "business men 1 & 2". Decision they were linked, Nl as it was mylo, Somi NK overnight.
Day 3 lynched PW wam NK overnight
Day 4 Angua and carlington lynched bio for the win


Hope that helps. Basically I found him suspicious in that game based on interactions with other players and a reluctance to place a vote close to deadline on D1. You had to hammer for a lynch. The tone seems different in this one and I have not noticed any PW versus anyone interactions.

Moving onto these questions from Hari

Hari Seldon wrote:Wam, what gave you the impression that Somitomi was frustrated in the post you quoted? What came across as town from the post you quoted by LaserGuy? Where do you stand now on Peaceful Whale?


1) It was the tone, I have made similar slips as town before and it gets frustrating when your town and people won't drop it.
2) Early serious vote and being willing to keep the pressure on to get an answer.
3) On meta and reads, still town but slipping down the reads as its very easy to hide behind "Nothing really stands out yet". The use of the word "other" is damming as I said. So two lynch candidates are now moody and PW.

Meta note I should probably clarify for people whilst I have played a lot, other than the FAID game the last game was 2.5 years ago , and I was dropping out in terms of content for a couple of months before that. So am feeling rather rusty.

@ Hari

Is this a method you have used before? If so did it work?

Also I have a vague memory of someone using something similar a long time ago so I agree with the alt account speculation.

@Maven

You haven't posted since sunday evening. Can we have something!

@Moody, yeah because scum always push for the mislynch of the guy they joke voted (sarcasm).

Spoiler:
moody7277 wrote:
wam wrote:Why is circling back a scumtell. I always found the opposite, jumping between candidates trying to find a lynch target scumier!


Jumping between candidates is not scummy. It's a bit further down the road from bessie's universal suspicion that seems like proper townie paranoia with the added benefit that scum may get nervous and slip. It's that you joke voted jimbob and are now coming up with reasons to keep on him. Now, it is possible that you picked scum right off, but scum might also try to use that to generate a mislynch.


Reading through Moody's latest posts make me even more suspicous. He has put all three people I can see being lynched today (Me, somi, PW) in his list, whilst just following others logic. It looks like scum trying to give themselves options getting close to deadline.

after all that

Vote Moody
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:48 pm UTC

Request prod on Maven

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Maven89 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:16 pm UTC

I have been extremly busy the last few days, I'll be able to get a large post in later today. I should be more active in the future

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Hari Seldon » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:47 pm UTC

Wam, which words or phrases in the quote below gave you the impression of frustration?

somitomi wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:What does memory have to do with it? You said you thought the nights would be short because there is daychat.

I didn't remember the length of the night phase was fixed, therefore I (erroreously) assumed night phase ends as soon as all actions are submitted. Possibly because that was the case in another game I played quite recently, where night was practically nonexistent as a result.
Peaceful Whale wrote:In all my games scum has had day chat, though the no night chat is interesting.

I was under the impression that night-chat was the "default", at least the newbie game had nightchat IIRC.


Moody, what parts of the two posts that you quoted from Somitomi led you to suspect that he had more information about how Night works than he should have? Why do you feel more strongly about Somitomi being a Mafia than you do about Wam?

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby wam » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:46 pm UTC

@hair

Just the tone and an impression which is hard to read over text I admit.
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby wam » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:47 pm UTC

Ebwop phone corrected hari to hair
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Madge » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:34 pm UTC

Votals:

wam - (2) - jimbob, laserguy
Moody - (1) - wam


Day 1 ends in 2 days, 7 hours, 25 minutes
Last edited by Madge on Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:03 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:35 pm UTC

@Madge, you have me down as having voted twice.

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby somitomi » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:06 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@somitomi, what is your current game plan for the next 24 hours?

I intend to post more detailed reads, I didn't make any plans beyond that.
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Madge » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:09 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:@Madge, you have me down as having voted twice.


Fixed, thanks!
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby wam » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:31 pm UTC

At this point (2 days before deadline) we should have more than 3 votes. Get voting people!
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:39 pm UTC

wam wrote:3) On meta and reads, still town but slipping down the reads as its very easy to hide behind "Nothing really stands out yet". The use of the word "other" is damming as I said. So two lynch candidates are now moody and PW.


You're reading PW as town but he is still a lynch candidate?

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby wam » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:48 pm UTC

Meta read as town , which has been overtaken by the scum slip.
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby bessie » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:43 am UTC

Hari Seldon wrote:The difference with Shakespeare is that all the characters were Shakespearean. There is a distinct difference in the character's personalities in this game and between the two sides. I do not expect that Jim would have been inclined to make the same post if he received the role of a rebellious teenager. He gave me more so the impression of a pompous upper class gentleman.
Ok, I see now what you mean.

Hari Seldon wrote:#hs1) This does not seem like the type of thought that a Mafia would have or point out. [3]
#hs2) Bessie put a joke FoS in the midst of serious FoSs without making it distinct. This makes it hard to interpret her post, which does not serve Town. [-0.5]
#hs3) Bessie's FoS was serious, but she did not explain why in her original post. As with above, this makes it hard to interpret her post. Furthermore, what good does a FoS do if other players do not know why it was made. [-1]
#hd4) Bessie had no motivation for asking LaserGuy for his setup spec. [-0.5]
#hs2) You have a point, I shouldn’t expect others to always know when I’m being serious and when I’m being sarcastic. In retrospect, I see that I should have added this: :P
#hs3) I’m thinking about this one. I’m not sure I agree that I needed to explain this in detail right away. Sometimes I like to see how others including the person being FoS’d react first.

Hari Seldon wrote:B) Bessie didn't take the time to trace why Peaceful Whale said this. Perhaps she is not looking deeply after all, only pretending to be by asking a lot of questions. [-1]
Ok, you caught me being crafty sneaky. I was trying to pry as much content as I could out of Peaceful Whale by Sunday night, and I thought he would respond to a quote with a direct question attached (note that he didn’t respond to my question). SDK doesn’t play on weekends. :)

LaserGuy wrote:bessie, while it's true that you didn't do much setup spec in Crossover, my recollection is that the only people who were giving you hard time about this were Sabrar and BoomFrog (and possibly EGW borrowing their read). Was there someone else? Otherwise I'm not sure why you have this impression since the only people who would have been pushing you over this were mafia.
I will take your word for it rather than rereading the game (maybe later). I was drawing a lot of suspicion in that game because my content was inconsistent with my town meta (which obviously means nothing and anyone who used that argument was WRONG anyway), and not doing setup spec was one of things that came up a lot, and I don’t remember exactly who was scum reading me for what reasons right now, and plytho has already informed me he wants to continue our discussion when he gets back from his trip, so I guess I’ll be revisiting it eventually. :?

LaserGuy wrote: What is your impression of Hari Seldon?
My impression is that he’s probably quite a good player. I like his method; his approach to analyzing the game post by post is similar to the way I play. Oh, and that he’s probably town.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote: On somitomi, Bessie mentioned that she felt he was in damage control mode. I completely agree with this, but I don't agree that this necessitates him being scum, as I feel that I've seen town do this often as well, including town!me on occasion in the past.
Interesting. I just did a search for damage control mode because I could only remember tunneling one person ever for this reason, and I only found the game I was thinking of, and this one. Reminder, that person was scum and he night killed me for it. :wink:

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
somitomi wrote:I could initiate a daychat once, at any time I decided to.
To me, this sounds like a fair reason to not notice the difference between pseudo-nightless (night ends as soon as actions are processed) and short nights (last until all actions submitted), assuming it checks out. Wam/PW/Anybody else in that game able to confirm?
I’m not seeing the connection. Care to elaborate?

jimbobmacdoodle wrote: @somitomi, what is your current game plan for the next 24 hours?
Why did you ask this question?

wam wrote: @Maven

You haven't posted since sunday evening. Can we have something!
Neither has Peaceful Whale. Why didn’t you prod him?

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby wam » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:29 am UTC

Because I missed it.

Pw some content please!

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Madge » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:01 am UTC

Peaceful Whale has been modprodded
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:46 am UTC

somitomi wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Pressure vote pending somitomi's response about his role in the FaiD game.


I could initiate a daychat once, at any time I decided to.


So you had an action, that was processed during the day, that would have linked you to another player who (checks the possible roles) would also have had an action that would be processed during the day :? This is very difficult for me to accept.

Also, here's the how long the night was in the game:
Spoiler:
Peaceful Whale wrote:Vote weeks

Peaceful Whale gives Hammer vote.
MasterOfAll wrote:And that's a lynch. Weeks was voted for by somitomi, Angua, wam, and Peaceful Whale.

Weeks is now dead. Weeks was the Thief, town.

Through an interesting series of events, nobody died during the night.

It is now Day 2. There are 6 of you alive. This means there are still 4 votes needed to lynch.

This is the next post, 13 minutes later. Mod simultaneously ends the day, processes the night phase, and starts new day.

I'm really struggling to understand how you could have possibly interpreted this in the manner that you claim to have. There is no way you would have interpreted this to mean that night actions were being submitted after the hammer but before the start of the day.


Taking another look at jimbob....
Spoiler:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Vote somitomi

for quite clearly being scum.

Happens to RVS somitomi.

jimbob wrote: I've been flip-flopping a bit as I've read the discussion about where I sit on it and have concluded in favour of somitomi, in that his mistake/interpretation was genuine (doesn't rule him out of being scum though) - I often read the rules and miss half of the important ones on my first time through. Nothing else particularly stands out to me. I'd appreciate a bit more depth on the reasoning behind his reads at some point though. Slightly townie.

Comes out in favor of somitomi without really explaining why. Noting also that jimbob had been away for much of this conversation between me and somitomi, so if these two are buddies, it's possible that somitomi wasn't able to consult with his partner when he got in trouble.

jimbob wrote:Just reading through LaserGuy's side of the discussion with somitomi, I feel like he's doing a plytho (or maybe plytho's antagonist, like bessie in Crossover), where he spends far too much time discussing one thing, and is dragging the conversation too far into unhelpful territory. I do see where he is coming from, and I could see a case for it, but I feel like scum wouldn't make a slip quite like that - I'm sure they'd be careful about disclosing information such as how their chat works. The question is, is he deliberately allowing this argument to dominate his time so that he looks busy, without actually reading anybody else? Slightly scummy due to lack of reads or thoughts on most players so far (aside from somitomi, setup speculation, and rules discussion, there are a couple of light questions directed at bessie, HS and moody, and that's about it).

Defends somitomi and attacks me for scumhunting.

jimbob wrote:On somitomi, Bessie mentioned that she felt he was in damage control mode. I completely agree with this, but I don't agree that this necessitates him being scum, as I feel that I've seen town do this often as well, including town!me on occasion in the past.

Defends somitomi.

jimbob wrote:@somitomi, what is your current game plan for the next 24 hours?

Super softball question.

jimbob wrote:To me, this sounds like a fair reason to not notice the difference between pseudo-nightless (night ends as soon as actions are processed) and short nights (last until all actions submitted), assuming it checks out. Wam/PW/Anybody else in that game able to confirm?

Buys somitomi's explanation and clears him.


Very interesting interactions between jimbob and somitomi. Why are you defending somitomi so much, jimbob?

Also, I'm putting this back.
Vote somitomi

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:54 am UTC

Oh one more, here's somitomi defending jimbob:
somitomi wrote:When I first read that post I thought Jimbbob made the name up as flavor and he basically said he did exactly that. I don't see what warrants a vote here.
FoS wam

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:07 am UTC

bessie wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote: On somitomi, Bessie mentioned that she felt he was in damage control mode. I completely agree with this, but I don't agree that this necessitates him being scum, as I feel that I've seen town do this often as well, including town!me on occasion in the past.
Interesting. I just did a search for damage control mode because I could only remember tunneling one person ever for this reason, and I only found the game I was thinking of, and this one. Reminder, that person was scum and he night killed me for it. :wink:
Ha, touché! I guess usually people refer to it as players being defensive. If I get time tonight, I'll see if I can find a town example.
bessie wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
somitomi wrote:I could initiate a daychat once, at any time I decided to.
To me, this sounds like a fair reason to not notice the difference between pseudo-nightless (night ends as soon as actions are processed) and short nights (last until all actions submitted), assuming it checks out. Wam/PW/Anybody else in that game able to confirm?
I’m not seeing the connection. Care to elaborate?
I'm not going to take credit for the argument: it's basically what LaserGuy mentioned earlier. I believe that somitomi may have skimmed the rules, as I did, and noticed some things, but not others. Some of the argument that followed from that, IIRC, was that he might be carrying over beliefs from the FaiD game, namely that the nights would likely be short. However, the FaiD game was not just short nights, but pseudo-nightless, i.e. the nights only lasted as long as it took for the mod to process it (actions had to be submitted by day end, not at some point in the night), so people called somitomi out for this, because the two concepts are quite different, and he got confused between the two, when attempting to defend his supposed slip (or was deliberately misrepresenting/panicking/scrambling for something to defend with). Here is the important point: this is an unreasonable mistake to make, if he had night actions that need submitting, because he must have known when he needed to submit his night action. He didn't have any such action, therefore he had no need to know when it needed submitting and therefore the night would have seemed potentially indistinguishable between a pseudo-nightless night, and a short night, and therefore his mistake could easily be genuine. Does that make sense?

bessie wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote: @somitomi, what is your current game plan for the next 24 hours?
Why did you ask this question?
It was a subtle attempt at prodding somitomi. I wanted to know that he was planning on giving more detailed reads, and not just rest on his previous ones, which were pretty threadbare, and his only real expressed opinion on other players. If he'd responded with pretty much anything else, I'd have given him a hard time for it. I still might, since he hasn't followed up on his promise yet.

Maven also hasn't followed up with promised content...

Peaceful Whale has been in full-on lurk mode since people called out his scum slip. I'm feeling slightly better about wam for now so:

Unvote
Vote Peaceful Whale

I might come back to wam later after going through his posts a bit more thoroughly.

@Peaceful Whale, you need to answer the questions and concerns addressed to you or you are very likely going to get lynched.

Ninja'ed by LaserGuy, but no time to respond right now. Will do so a bit later.
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Peaceful Whale » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:58 pm UTC

Ugh, didn’t have time to post at all for the last two days. But I’m here now. I’ve answered all of jimbobmacdoodle’s questoins. I’m still going through but I finished this. So I’ll post it.

[quote="jimbobmacdoodle”]
@Peaceful Whale - please could you explain what you meant by the set of posts regarding day/night chat, ending with this one. What did you find interesting? What were you trying to add/correct with your second and third posts (in other words if you rewrote the whole thing as one paragraph, what would it say)?

Also @Peaceful Whale, you never answered my question about why you thought it would be LYLO tomorrow if there's an indie. Please answer it.

Finally, do you have any reads now that there are a few posts? If you had to kill somebody now, who would it be, and why?

@Peaceful Whale - please explain what you meant when you said "other scum games".

@Peaceful Whale, you need to answer the questions and concerns addressed to you or you are very likely going to get lynched.
[/quote]

I didn’t explain myself well with what I found weird. In all my games where we had nights, scum had day and night chat, so I found that having day chat and no night chat is very weird. I’d have thought it would be the other way around.

About the LYLO, I assumed that indie was anti town, and was scum... so ignore my stupidity please.

I haven’t had the time to hop on and post and was wondering what the scum slip was everyone was talking about. So this is it apparently. Honestly it does look like a scum slip, and there’s not much I can do about it. I myself wouldn’t have seen it, and obviously I didn’t catch it myself. My only defense is that if I were scum, I’d be more likely to catch myself and be more careful.

I wasn’t on over the holidays, (my school had Monday and Tuesday off) however I am going through the thread and rereading everything as I work on my reads. Give me some time, I’ll also be able to work more later tonight. Right now I’m at 2nd period...
Peaceful Whale wrote:
flicky1991 wrote:Spell it out for me.
I-T

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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby moody7277 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:32 pm UTC

Hari Seldon wrote:Moody, what parts of the two posts that you quoted from Somitomi led you to suspect that he had more information about how Night works than he should have? Why do you feel more strongly about Somitomi being a Mafia than you do about Wam?


1.
somitomi wrote:Although apparently my initial post was right about night ending as soon as all actions are submitted,

2.
somitomi wrote:I actually didn't double-check,

3.
somitomi wrote:I didn't remember the length of the night phase was fixed, therefore I (erroreously) assumed night phase ends as soon as all actions are submitted. Possibly because that was the case in another game I played quite recently, where night was practically nonexistent as a result.


He got the bit about night length right in point 1, even though admitting to not giving the OP a close look in point 2, and seemingly backtracking a bit in point 3. Confusion on that point shouldn't have been an issue since his last game was nightless. Therefore my conclusion of extra info.

On wam, I don't recall seeing anything so egregious, and as I stated previously interactions between them lead me to believe they aren't a scum team together.

vote: somitomi
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Re: Halloween Mafia - The Werewolf of Wall Street - Day 1 - Let's Get This Party Started!

Postby Madge » Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:05 pm UTC

Votals:

Somitomi - (2) - laserguy, moody
Moody - (1) - wam
Peaceful Whale - (1) - jimbob


With 9 players alive, it is 5 to hammer.

Day 1 ends in 1 days, 15 hours, 55 minutes
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