Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

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flicky1991
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby flicky1991 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:14 am UTC

And most of MoA's paragraph about not contributing much is pretty much a summary of how I feel myself this game.
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Suzaku » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:16 am UTC

Current Votals:

MasterOfAll - 1 (Sabrar)
bessie - 1 (flicky1991)
LaserGuy - 1 (Hari Seldon)

Not voting: bessie, LaserGuy, MasterOfAll

This. Is. Sparta MYLO.

With 6 alive hammer requires 4 votes. Tied votals will result in no lynch.
Deadline in just over 12 hours.

Note that posting and voting may continue after the deadline until a mod calls night (or there’s a hammer vote).
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby bessie » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:19 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:@bessie: please give an overview on how your read on LaserGuy evolved throughout the game. Which posts of his are most relevant?

I didn’t say a lot about LaserGuy until this post, which has been much discussed by me. I think it was opportunistic and suspicious. [Note that jimbob quickly agreed with LaserGuy here.] I know that LaserGuy did not vote for Peaceful Whale either, but I’ve already explained why I think it is beneficial for scum to try to narrow the lynch pool regardless. See my initial reaction here.
bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Everyone on PW wagon looking very good today.
I need to think about this, but I don’t necessarily agree. I’ve previously said that I think there were reasons for scum to want to keep town!Peaceful Whale alive. There may also be reasons for bussing him. I will need to take a look at the end of day voting more closely, the wagon switched after I left for work.
I was getting hammered for my non-vote on Peaceful Whale, and explained this many times throughout the day, but I should note that LaserGuy was not the only one stuck on this.

Re confirmation post discussion, see here, here’s just one part of that post:
bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:You didn't do any detailed confirmation post analysis in Secret Santa and I doubt PW was paying close enough attention to that game to note your one throwaway reference to this. Also, you were mafia that game. Why do you think scum!PW would be copying scum!bessie rather than Town!bessie?
Because analyzing confirmation posts is something I do, not something I do as scum. Peaceful Whale admitted he was copying people he found townie here.
Peaceful Whale had already admitted to copying me on D1. This is another discussion that LaserGuy would not let go. See also here, here.

Selection from here:
Spoiler:
bessie wrote:I don’t know how Peaceful Whale got the idea to copy this particular aspect of my meta. If he has template he followed, he didn’t get it from me. I doubt he got it from someone else and I hope no one actually advised him to do this, I just can’t see it because that would be too obvious if someone gave him a list and said: act like bessie, analyze confirmation posts, talk about the setup, and tunnel. He copied my reads in Crossover, he admitted to copying my meta here. I think it’s entirely possible he made his own list from this:
bessie wrote:Welcome Liri! If you have any general mafia gameplay questions feel free to ask in thread, and someone will probably answer them truthfully.

Ok, no suspicious confirmation posts. Rule clarifications, availability are acceptable topics, as they contain no game content. Sabrar’s enthusiasm has already been noted.

Setup, 7-2-1 or 6-2-1-1. From past experience I expect there to be a lot of superpowered roles, and we are a forum full of creative people.


Oh look, there’s also this:
bessie wrote:Hi Peaceful Whale! I’m glad you decided to stick around and give the game another try. Remember, if you have any general gameplay questions you are welcome to ask in this thread. This is a newbie friendly game, and we will all do our best to help you out. If you have any questions about your role, send a pm to BoomFrog.

Well, let’s see. No one had a suspicious confirmation post.

Setup. Per the sign ups, simple powers, possibly some vanilla roles. Per the game specific rules, no cult. I hope rule #5 is a joke, because jester is an annoying enough role in itself. Per rule #2, tying the votes won’t stop the lynch. So I’m going to say 7-2, or 6-2-1 where independent is not anti-town. Need to think about this a little.

LaserGuy had made this comment re moody’s post by post analysis:
LaserGuy wrote:Actually, looking at some previous games post-by-post analysis like this this is something moody does as Town (Fridge, several other examples in that game) (Secret Santa, multiple examples again). I can't find an example of him doing this as scum (he doesn't do this in Crossover, Hallowe'en, or when he replaced in X-Men).

I posted examples from two older games to show that this is non alignment indicative in this post.
bessie wrote:Scum moody post-by-post analysis in Monstrous Masquerade Mafia.
Town moody post-by-post analysis in Doctor Who Mafia.

I think your meta read that moody only does post-by-post analysis as town is incorrect.

Later from LaserGuy’s Madge read here:
LaserGuy wrote:As I noted here, the type of post-by-post analysis done by moody on PW is something he tends to do as Town (bessie did find one counterexample, but it's from 2014... in more recent games he has only done this as Town).
I was only looking for one example of each to prove my point. I could have found more. Another example that LaserGuy is selective in what he analyzes, he could have asked me, but instead he just brushes it off with “well only recent games count”.

Here’s another place where I accuse LaserGuy of being selective in his analysis.
bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:What I'm noting most here is a lack of direct interaction between them. bessie talks to Sabrar, and Sabrar talks to bessie, but they are always talking about someone else. bessie never asks Sabrar about Sabrar, and Sabrar (almost) never asks bessie about bessie.
This is not a indication of anything in itself. There are other player pairs in this game without a lot of interaction, like me-Vicarin. They can’t all be scum pairs. Oh wait, selective.


I have in my LaserGuy notes that there’s something odd with Peaceful Whale’s BoomFrog post that I noted here but I never figured out what it was, so maybe nothing.

LaserGuy’s pushing me on D4 over Sabrar’s power, not getting why I didn’t want to discuss it, see here.
bessie wrote: Also you’ve not only completely misread me, you’ve completely misread the evidence (my posts). LaserGuy, your case on me reads like you started with an objective, and then interpreted my posts in a way to make the evidence support your final conclusion. Your questions to me weren’t objective, they were leading, like you really wanted an excuse to discuss Sabrar’s power, and I didn’t bite.
And then LaserGuy scum reads me for it, read my response here.

I had some doubt at the end of D4, for reasons see this post.

I’m suspicious of LaserGuy again on D5, see this post.

This post was partially made of notes I made on D3 for a LaserGuy read that never happened. I realize that it's not very well organized, and doesn't cover all relevant content, but I wasn't up to doing a complete reread. Just putting this post together now took over an hour. If you want to ask me anything specific I'll do my best to answer.

Ninja'd by a lot.

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby bessie » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:37 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:This isn't the first time this game you've deliberately misinterpreted me.

Where do you believe I deliberately misinterpreted you?


bessie wrote:Shakespeare LaserGuy: Scum attacking me by trying to tie me to a newbie scum that I was trying to help out, see my post here (check spoiler).


I never commented on you helping PW out one way or the other. This entire digression was a complete fabrication by you.

You have been trying to tie me to newbie scum, and use it as evidence that I am scum, in this game, as you did in Shakespeare.

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby bessie » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:43 am UTC

flicky1991 wrote:And most of MoA's paragraph about not contributing much is pretty much a summary of how I feel myself this game.

flicky, what I said to MasterOfAll goes for you too. I understand. This game has gotten way out of hand, and I know you specifically requested a newbie game. Please just do the best you can.

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:48 am UTC

bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:
bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:This isn't the first time this game you've deliberately misinterpreted me.

Where do you believe I deliberately misinterpreted you?


bessie wrote:Shakespeare LaserGuy: Scum attacking me by trying to tie me to a newbie scum that I was trying to help out, see my post here (check spoiler).


I never commented on you helping PW out one way or the other. This entire digression was a complete fabrication by you.


You have been trying to tie me to newbie scum, and use it as evidence that I am scum, in this game, as you did in Shakespeare.


And once again you misinterpret my point entirely.

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:51 am UTC

Uh, also, that's exactly what you were doing D1 to somitomi/Madge, D2 to Madge/BoomFrog, and D3 to BoomFrog/jimbob.

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:15 am UTC

I've been sitting here for the past two hours spinning my wheels, and I've nearly run out of time so I'm just going to post what I've got and put down my vote. I might be around maybe 4 hours before deadline, but Monday is a holiday here and I'm out with family for most of the day, so I won't be around beyond that.

Going to mostly go with my gut on this one, so apologies if the game ends on account of me. Feeling better about this post ninja.

Looking back over PW, this comment has bothered me for the entire game and I just can't see around this not being a scumslip:
Peaceful Whale wrote:She’s pushed really hard for NL... and makes a lot of valid points, however I don’t know if this is scummy or towny. If she’s scum, I bet she’s developed a pretty good plan. (I looked back at (smallville?) and saw the ending, where she apparently played a pretty mean scum. Mean as in smart/strong/very good)


The SmallTown game being referenced here is from January 2015. I don't believe that PW was reading a game dating back that far in enough detail to be able to pick up this kind of meta read on Madge. I don't believe that PW read this game at all (and imagine he would have got the name right if he had). So I think this line was fed to him by a buddy. This means at least one of cemper/bessie must be scum, since both played in that game. My intuition here is that this actually points to bessie specifically, since she has been consistently generous with her meta on scum!Madge being a strong player (as an aside, it's interesting to note that in my discussions of this point, as well as the related argument regarding confirmation post analysis, bessie never considers the possibility that scum!PW might be lying about any of this). cemper did not seem to have any strong recollection of Madge based on his posting.

It's interesting reading how bessie talks about Peaceful Whale. As I noted all the way back in D1, bessie enters this weird situation where she is scumreading PW, generates a good case on him, and then consistently uses her scumread on PW to push other players rather than PW himself. Note the discrepencies in how she describes him:
D1
bessie wrote:you [somitomi] and LaserGuy are fishing to see if I would easily swing my vote to Peaceful Whale, or if you’re going to have to work on me.

Sabrar wrote:Hi bessie! Who will you tunnel next?
bessie wrote:Sigh. Probably Peaceful Whale.

Hmm, or BoomFrog.

D2+
bessie wrote:My evaluation was that if Peaceful Whale was scum, he would be fairly obvious, so if there is another fairly strong candidate, it would make sense to leave the obvious candidate for later. Also, I don’t think that Peaceful Whale would be as dangerous to leave alive as say, scum!Madge.

bessie wrote:The idea would be to save obviscum for later when a mislynch can lose the g a m e for town.

In D1 when PW was actually in the game, bessie gave no indication that she found PW so obviously scummy that she didn't mind leaving him in the game until later, and was in fact quite resistant to the idea of voting for him. Later in the game, she slips into this argument the PW was "obviously scum" and we should have kept him around to help find his buddies, but this isn't really consistent with her early posting on this, and, frankly, doesn't make sense in a game where ever the scummiest player could confirm-Town themselves if they hold a power role.

I don't really have the time/energy to really go through more of this again. See here, here, here, here, here, here, here.

I'll try to be on at least once before deadline, if only briefly, but I imagine this will be my final vote this game.

Vote: bessie

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Sabrar » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:30 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:but I imagine this will be my final vote this game.
Are you not planning to vote tomorrow? Or does 'final' mean that after we mislynch bessie game will be over?

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D4

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:03 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
I think scum is either flicky/jimbob or bessie/MoA at this point. If it's the former, it doesn't matter much which one we lynch. If it's the latter, I'm resigned to the fact that we've already lost.

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Sabrar » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:06 pm UTC

That doesn't make sense. Just because you're resigned to lose to bessie/MOA doesn't mean there won't be a vote tomorrow if we lynch one of them today. And you're not going to get NK-d.

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:07 pm UTC

I don't think we have the votes to lynch bessie. I just don't like any of the alternatives.

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Sabrar » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:23 pm UTC

Still not an answer.

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby bessie » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:38 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:And once again you misinterpret my point entirely.
You still have not explained how this is a deliberate misinterpretation.

LaserGuy wrote:Uh, also, that's exactly what you were doing D1 to somitomi/Madge, D2 to Madge/BoomFrog, and D3 to BoomFrog/jimbob.
Accusing me of doing the same thing is not an explanation. And I’m not denying anything. You are.


viewtopic.php?p=4296684#p4296684
bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote: bessie being completely uninterested in my behaviour was a red flag for me
Already covered here. You continuing to ignore my rebuttals to your accusations does not make you correct.



Vote: LaserGuy


I’m leaving for work soon and probably won’t be back before deadline.

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:07 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:Still not an answer.


I'm assuming that I will be mislynched today and there will not be a D6.

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Sabrar » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:14 pm UTC

And why did it take you 3 attempts to post that answer?

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Sabrar » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:22 pm UTC

This attitude is in contrast with the overall impression I got previously of LaserGuy. I think I would be fine with his lynch as well.

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Hari Seldon » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:12 pm UTC

Laser if you have time, could you respond to my questions from earlier?

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby flicky1991 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:12 pm UTC

bessie wrote:I’m not denying anything
Sorry but :lol:
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby MasterOfAll » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:13 pm UTC

Vote: bessie

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Hari Seldon » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:14 pm UTC

I think Laser is right actually...

Vote: Bessie

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby MasterOfAll » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:15 pm UTC

And that's an unofficial hammer.

bessie - 4 votes (flicky, LaserGuy, MoA, Hari)

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby wam » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:27 pm UTC

that was hammer end of d5

Ps that happened as I was leaving the house so proper day end post in an hour or so
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby wam » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:32 pm UTC

Double checked my math. Game over scum win. Well done Hari, pw and Moa/cemper
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Sabrar » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:37 pm UTC

Congrats to scum! Setup definitely favored town but you played well and caught some lucky breaks. Sooo need to read spoilers.
Thanks wam and Suzaku for modding!

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby flicky1991 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:42 pm UTC

Good game. I was certain earlier today that bessie and MoA were waiting for a second vote on LaserGuy to pile onto.

I'm not sure if I'm going to play Mafia here again. I gave it a good few goes because I enjoyed it on other forums I played it on, but the games here get way too analytical and intense for my liking. (The site I played it on longest had 24 hour days and 24 hour nights, so you pretty much just made a comment or two, revealed any night results if appropriate, then everyone voted. It was a lot more relaxed because you didn't really get arguments that way.)
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:47 pm UTC

So I was half right. Told you all to look at Hari :P

Thanks for modding wam, and thanks everyone else for playing.

@cemper - Whose idea was the town slip? I'm dying to know who I need to be super-suspicious of in the future! I would love to know the story behind the night kill decisions too...

Looks like I'll have to read the spoilers finally.
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Hari Seldon » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:50 pm UTC

That was very difficult and we were definitely very fortunate. I have so much to say, but first spoilers :shock:

@Flicky, yeah there are many variations in how the game is played across the web. The way it is set up here is personally my favorite. You may enjoy live mafia more, such as The Town of Salem or Epic Mafia. Games on those sites are usually played within 20 minutes or less.

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby flicky1991 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:00 pm UTC

Hari Seldon wrote:You may enjoy live mafia more
I've played Mafia in real life (as it was meant to be played :P ) and had fun with it.
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Sabrar » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:21 pm UTC

Where is the scum-chat???

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Hari Seldon » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:38 pm UTC

https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/DqrSSUNbqjzK

Some was through PM, but that bit of conversation was mostly me just trying to figure out if MoA or I should CC Boom.

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby cemper93 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:53 pm UTC

GG everyone! I really enjoyed following the game after my death. (Obviously enjoyed playing it too, but following it was much less work. :D )

@Hari: Sorry again for leaving. I really felt like we were a good team and you are an awesome scummate, but real life just caught up with me too hard and I didn't want to throw the game by appearing to be lurking. Of course, ironically, my replacement lurked way harder than I would have and it turned out to be fine to just course through, so I now understand that my fear was unfounded.

jimbob wrote:@cemper - Whose idea was the town slip? I'm dying to know who I need to be super-suspicious of in the future! I would love to know the story behind the night kill decisions too...
The town slip was my own idea. To be quite honest, I never expected it to work as well as it did. The reason I did it was that what I wrote earlier is true -- back when I played here, "day and night chat" was actually given explicitly. I didn't want to appear to know something that town!cemper shouldn't, so I acted like I didn't know that the nomenclature had changed. I hadn't even intended for everyone to like me so much for it!

The night kills were mostly Hari's work, so I'll leave the storytelling to him if he wants to. People had mostly figured it out though from what I recall.

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby somitomi » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:53 pm UTC

Well played, mafia, well played.
flicky1991 wrote:I'm not sure if I'm going to play Mafia here again. I gave it a good few goes because I enjoyed it on other forums I played it on, but the games here get way too analytical and intense for my liking. (The site I played it on longest had 24 hour days and 24 hour nights, so you pretty much just made a comment or two, revealed any night results if appropriate, then everyone voted. It was a lot more relaxed because you didn't really get arguments that way.)

Yeah, games here are a little intense, there used to be "rapid" games with short days, at least I recall the noob guide mentioning it. I guess we could ask some inexperience challenged player to make one, pretty please?
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Hari Seldon » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:18 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:So I was half right. Told you all to look at Hari :P

Thanks for modding wam, and thanks everyone else for playing.

@cemper - Whose idea was the town slip? I'm dying to know who I need to be super-suspicious of in the future! I would love to know the story behind the night kill decisions too...

Looks like I'll have to read the spoilers finally.


N1 Vic Kill: His Town leader attitude made me think he was a PR. The brashness led me to think he was not afraid of being seen as scum because he could prove himself as Town any time he wanted. (It's why I reversed my early scum read of him, because I didn't want to push him into claiming). We thought he was Doctor though, because he had uncannily high confidence that they would successfully protect. It was very fortunate that he was Cop. I think the game would have gone differently had he not been.

N2 Somi Kill: I thought Doc would likely have been on Somi N1 and I thought Sabrar would have also. If these two things were true, then Sabrar would have known who the Doctor was, which means he would not have increased his suspicion when Madge began to allude that she wasn't Doc. He would have already thought that she was confirmed Scum before that.

We didn't know if Sabrar actually targeted Somi N1 though but instead chose to outguess scum. But we had to take a gamble at some point in the game or else the PRs would just shield each other indefinitely. I felt this was the best opportunity we had.

N3 Sabrar Kill: I was originally going to kill Boom, but the fact that Sabrar & Bessie didn't switch their vote back to Laser at the end of the day, made me feel I needed to switch direction. Since we NLed there wasn't any mathematical disadvantage to No Killing. So I took the opportunity to take a 50/50 shot at Sabrar. I was hoping the resulting WIFOM regardless of whether the kill went through or not would reinforce Town Hari, since not killing Boom meant that Scum were not afraid of his reads (Laser, Flicky, Hari) and were afraid of Sabrar's (Scum Laser/Jim, Town Hari).
Last edited by Hari Seldon on Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:09 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Peaceful Whale » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:09 pm UTC

Sorry Bessie! Cemper made me do the guilt trip post...
My meta for future reference
Spoiler:
cemper93 wrote:Your meta appears to be "just writes whatever is on his mind and doesn't remember what happened more than five hours ago"

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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby MasterOfAll » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:12 pm UTC

Sorry, town.

For the record, I wasn't lurking as a strategy. I just genuinely had a really tough time motivating myself to put some effort into the game. I'm happy for Hari that scum won, because I think he did a really solid job.

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Sabrar
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Sabrar » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:50 pm UTC

cemper in scum-chat:
The _ONLY_ situation we will want to claim PR this game is if one of us is almost lynched (like, with votals at L-1 or so, not before). In that case, claim the hidden power role that is the most annoying to us immediately. You're going to get lynched anyway because the real PR will counterclaim, but now we will know who has that PR.

Me, all throughout the game: that is exactly how scum would think.

cemper, all throughout the game: that logic is bad.

:roll:

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Sabrar
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Sabrar » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:53 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:But if jimbob is Town, then we've just lost since Sabrar will vote with mafia tomorrow.
I take small comfort in the fact that out of all the remaining townies I was the only one to vote for scum D5.

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Vicarin
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Vicarin » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:56 pm UTC

Dang, scum got there in the end.

As I've said in the spoilers, definitely going to go for a policy of Lynch all NLers given that the entire scum team were supporting it at some point. Add this to Lynch all lurkers.

Never trusting a goddamn town slip after that D2 my goodness.

@Hari: I was kinda hoping that I would be under more suspicion, but as it turns out I was almost universally a strong town read. Yay? Me not being VT did suck for town, and definitely helped with making sure town didn't get a confirmed block. Turns out I was naive anyway, and BoomFrog had considered me a N1 target, which would have been amazing.

I do feel better about my really big 6 person list having all the scum on it at least.

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Sabrar
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Sabrar » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:57 pm UTC

BTW I actually breadcrumbed because it would have been super useful if scum counterclaims me at any time. At first I thought PW found it. :)


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