Wheel of Time 3 - A Divided Sisterhood (N5)

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bessie
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Re: Wheel of Time 3 - A Divided Sisterhood (N5)

Postby bessie » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:07 pm UTC

Note to LaserGuy: I too find your QTs quite enlightening. I keep thinking of doing that, but often when I hit the wall (usually on D3) I use Gojoe activity as inspiration to keep going, so I think I need to post there.

Madge, thank you for sharing your excellent game tips! Mark, really, try some of those in the next game. I’m thinking of following them myself by just tunneling plytho and ignoring everyone else. :P

jimbob, is this a mistake?
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Scum aren't in a good situation. Town now have two doctors able to protect bessie, and no longer have their strongman to deal with them. So if town realise this, they can essentially follow the cop to victory.
If I’m macho scum didn’t need a strongman to kill me, and a doctor couldn’t protect me against a regular kill, so follow the cop wasn’t a workable strategy anyway.


Ok, game notes! I’ve been screwing with this for two days because I keep thinking I have more to say, but it’s time to move it along. If I have more later, I’ll just post again.

Things I like:
-Flavor: A+, nuff said.
-Setup: Well, since my guess was 8 town, 2 mafia, 1 recruit/supporter/traitor/whatever from the beginning, it should be no surprise that I believe this aspect of the setup was just right! The town roles (standards like cop/doc/jailer/watcher/tracker with limitations) and mafia roles (strongman and ninja + other powers, unlimited to balance the numbers) were what I was expecting. So for the most part, I think the balance was good.
-moody’s ter’angreal- I thought this was a great mechanic (even if I think it was meh as a secondary win con). It also could have been an interesting power if moody had lived, because he always knew where it was (he could have confirmed BoomFrog was roleblocked). It could also been used by scum to cover the kill.
-No alignment/win condition changing roles.


Where I think the game missed: Sabrar’s role.

Things I like:
-Traitor knew his alignment from the beginning, this wasn’t recruitment. (Question for jimbob, would Sabrar have copped as “not town” the entire game?)
-The traitor voting power was interesting, would have liked to see it used.
-Inheriting the kill mechanism, I think not knowing in advance was ok but for such a small game perhaps should have been immediate.

Things I don’t like:
-No mechanism for mafia and traitor to at least find out who all their partners were. It appears from reading your flavor notes that wam was not informed that Sabrar was traitor, only Vicarin. Perhaps the more traditional “traitor joins team if targeted” would have been better.
-No N0 or day chat was especially difficult for such a small team, since they couldn’t share their abilities until N1. (I had guessed in my setup spec that was mafia all-chat, with a mason pair to balance it out.)

Personal observation, not game commentary, I think we should use all-chat and pseudo nightless (night actions due within a few hours of EOD so that people can use the lynch result to choose night actions) more often. If you’re town the night cycle sucks. And our games are small so there’s potential mafia never have the opportunity to chat.


Re secondary win cons: I had some pretty harsh comments in game because I seriously wasn’t expecting anyone to submit something that would actually have an effect on game play. I really expected more like this:
BoomFrog wrote: I predict that Vicaran's bonus win-con is too be quoted by every player. (maybe before D1, maybe he just has to make sure he gets everyone before they die.)
I love this one! I wish I thought of it.

Anyway, I couldn’t believe we had so many lyncher-type secondary win cons. I suppose it was just bad luck that the scummiest secondary win cons were assigned to scum, because I think claiming definitely hurt them. And I was ready to rant yet again about this, when I realized that TBH it was scum’s own fault that they claimed their win cons, and that they revealed they had ever even considered pursuing them (and in doing so showed their scum card). They could have ignored them as I ignored mine (note: I deliberately started picking LaserGuy on N2 because he’s the only person that didn’t claim, so it couldn’t affect my gameplay, like if I had chosen mpolo again I might have been predisposed to vote for him). So jimbob, I am ok with everything you did with the secondary win cons.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote: In retrospect, I'd have changed a couple of things: 1) switched around the scum abilities so that redirect was paired with the (in this setup) weaker ninja, so that scum didn't lose all their good abilities in one go, and 2) found a way to make the secondary win conditions impact the game more. I decided against making them compulsory, as that would have been hard to balance, but I wonder if I'd strengthened town it could have made more of a difference. It's difficult to know. I think more that actually had a direct game effect like moody's would have worked.
Re #2, might I humbly suggest that the secondary win cons are more whimsical, or perhaps that instead of making secondary win cons, perhaps having a goal that triggers a bonus or a power? Like for example, if there was a tied vote, then the next day BoomFrog would get a double vote. Or for Mark’s, on days he was the post leader he could use his watcher on whomever he wanted.

Re #1, I don't necessarily think the ninja was weaker than the strongman, the perspective would be altered if BoomFrog and mpolo had died early instead of moody and heury, or if Madge had absorbed an investigative power.

Anyway, thank you again jimbobmacdoodle, I always look forward to your games. :D

dimochka, you need to hang around here more often. :P

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Mark_Cangila
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Re: Wheel of Time 3 - A Divided Sisterhood (N5)

Postby Mark_Cangila » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:01 pm UTC

@Madge: My issue is that my favorite part of Mafia is playing Scum. I really like the stealth sort of thing you need to do.

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jimbobmacdoodle
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Re: Wheel of Time 3 - A Divided Sisterhood (N5)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:14 pm UTC

Thanks for the feedback bessie. It is very much appreciated.

bessie wrote:jimbob, is this a mistake?
Yes, sorry, my bad. I had a lapse of memory when I wrote that. I even made you macho to precisely prevent that situation :lol:
bessie wrote:Question for jimbob, would Sabrar have copped as “not town” the entire game?
Yes. I effectively viewed Sabrar as a member of the scum team for all purposes except for the way the kill worked and lack of chat/knowledge of buddies.
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Madge
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Re: Wheel of Time 3 - A Divided Sisterhood (N5)

Postby Madge » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:39 pm UTC

Mark_Cangila wrote:@Madge: My issue is that my favorite part of Mafia is playing Scum. I really like the stealth sort of thing you need to do.


Pretend you're a serial killer every day, then. Optimal serial killer play is very similar to optimal town play: SK wants to get people voted out who aren't you, and to get people voted out, you need to find scum reads; to not get voted out, you need to act townie. Sounds mighty like what vanilla townies have to do, doesn't it? :lol:

Of course, in your personal "Roband Lyf" (aka "Always the SK") fantasy, you JUST SO HAPPEN to get roleblocked every night, which is oh so frustrating.

If you specifically want to be mafia, not SK, here's a few options:

- You're traitor, but you don't know who the scum team is. Find them. (... and then out them, which as a real traitor you wouldn't do, but you know...)
- You're a member of the scum team! Choose a random player to be your buddy. Too bad you don't have night chat, but make sure your buddy doesn't get voted off and try to bring the vote to some unsuspecting townie who is acting scummy

Yeah, it requires more than a little self-deception, but I find that mindset very valuable.
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Vicarin
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Re: Wheel of Time 3 - A Divided Sisterhood (N5)

Postby Vicarin » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:27 pm UTC

So, I'd have loved to not go for my secondary wincon at all for the entire game and never mentioned it, but my problematic situation was that the wincon gets revealed when I get lynched. And then the question becomes if scum had this wincon that they could have used to excuse even the slightest amount of anti-town behaviour, why didn't they bother trying to do so? Mainly got caught up in how incriminating my flip would be for wam if I didn't seem somewhat interested in the wincon, but that ended up not being terribly relevant.

If my 2nd wincon wasn't going to be revealed at all I'd have just gone along with never mentioning it.

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BoomFrog
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Re: Wheel of Time 3 - A Divided Sisterhood (N5)

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:41 am UTC

Every stroke of the sword should be made with intent to kill.
Every Mafia game mechanic should be made with intent to generate discussion.
The secondary win-cins were truly successful.
As mafia, it is always harder to imagine how your townie self would react.
It turns out this time, publicly dismissing your secondary win con was the way to go.
"Everything I need to know about parenting I learned from cooking. Don't be afraid to experiment, and eat your mistakes." - Cronos

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Vicarin
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Re: Wheel of Time 3 - A Divided Sisterhood (N5)

Postby Vicarin » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:26 am UTC

Yes, but as I said, I don't think that works once I flip and the wincon is revealed.

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LaserGuy
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Re: Wheel of Time 3 - A Divided Sisterhood (N5)

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:34 am UTC

Honestly, I think if you had flipped that secondary wincon and had played the entire game fastidiously ignoring it, I don't think it would have drawn any attention to wam... scum want to give the appearance of being Town, so reacting to such a wincon in the same way that as a townie would have been the expected behaviour.

I guess the alternate solution was just to openly buddy/defend wam for the entire game, and make it appear that you were trying to achieve the "keep this player alive till the end of the game" part of your wincon. This is IMHO a much riskier approach since if wam flips scum before your then you're in trouble.

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Vicarin
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Re: Wheel of Time 3 - A Divided Sisterhood (N5)

Postby Vicarin » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:10 am UTC

Forgot to ask way earlier, is it ok I post the link to the scumchat or does wam/jimbob/dimochka not want it released?

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wam
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Re: Wheel of Time 3 - A Divided Sisterhood (N5)

Postby wam » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:43 am UTC

Vicarin wrote:Forgot to ask way earlier, is it ok I post the link to the scumchat or does wam/jimbob/dimochka not want it released?


No objection.
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Vicarin
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Re: Wheel of Time 3 - A Divided Sisterhood (N5)

Postby Vicarin » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:51 am UTC



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