Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

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LaserGuy
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D5)

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:48 am UTC

I can come up with some equally improbable explanations for you if you'd like. Or you can just vote MoA and we'll call it a day. :)

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MasterOfAll
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D5)

Postby MasterOfAll » Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:57 pm UTC

bessie wrote:I’m working out all the night actions now (though I kinda want to make MasterOfAll do it and see what he comes up with).
So, you might have more information on night actions than me, but let's see what I think I know about N1:
- mpolo XOR copped Sabrar and I, which caused Sabrar and my targets to be swapped per the hidden mechanic.
- I'm assuming that since I had 5 targets for my messages, just my first one was redirected to Sabrar's target, but didn't make it for reasons (one possibility is that the target was BoomFrog and Mark's protection prevented it).
- Meanwhile, Sabrar was redirected to himself, which would explain why he was holding the Neighbourizing Suicide Vest when his role details specified that he chose targets for his inventions.

Other than moody's piece of coal, I haven't seen any other objects listed on role reveals, so either Sabrar's N2 invention is in bessie's or LaserGuy's hands, or the invention was blocked.

@mods - Mark also was holding a piece of coal, yes?


So, I am ready to just trust moody's results and . . .

Vote: LaserGuy

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D5)

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:09 pm UTC

Sabrar's N2 invention was the bells I received.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D5)

Postby MasterOfAll » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:12 pm UTC

Oh, right. It seems that my memory just isn't as good as it used to be.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D5)

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:34 pm UTC

Okay, so bessie is confirmed Town.

Vote: MoA

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D5)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:46 pm UTC

Sir MasterOfAll sidled up to Sir Jimbob as the group paused for breath. "I was just um... wondering if, um... anything else was found in Sir Mark_Cangila's belongings, say, maybe a lump of coal, like found on Sir moody?"

"Hmmm?" responded Sir Jimbob, distractedly, his mind elsewhere. "Oh, yes, I forgot to mention it. Funny how everybody seems to be carrying around coal, eh?"


Sorry, yes, Mark was carrying a lump of coal.

Votals:

LaserGuy (1): MasterOfAll
MasterOfAll (1): LaserGuy

Not voting: bessie

With 3 alive, it takes 2 votes to lynch. Deadline is 8pm UTC on Monday (but feel free to end it earlier if you wish).

FYI, I won't be around most of Saturday, and if hammer falls overnight my time on any night, you'll have to wait until my evening time for a day end post.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D5)

Postby bessie » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:06 am UTC

Sorry guys I thought I would have an opportunity to post earlier but I just got home.

MasterOfAll I don’t think I have any additional information, I’m pretty sure I already revealed everything I know. I think you are right that just your first message (from the order you gave yesterday was Sabrar)was redirected by mpolo to me. I only received one message not two but I think everything works out if wam targeted me N1. Mark didn’t have any hidden mechanics that would give him a false cop result. Now that I’m home in front of my computer I’m too tired to work everything out for moody’s role giving a chance of a false result and will probably end up voting LaserGuy anyway so no need to drag this out until Monday.

Vote: LaserGuy

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D5)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:59 am UTC

That's hammer. No more posting. Day end post to follow later in the evening. Feel free to submit night actions in the meantime.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D5)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:05 pm UTC

After a couple of hours, it was becoming clear that the Mouse was toying with the party. They’d ended up almost back at the camp. The group stopped and gathered around to discuss what to do.

“I think we should send one of you two off to take on the Beast on your own,” said Sir LaserGuy. “Sure, it didn’t work before, but you are both better than all the others, right?”

The other knights exchanged looks, and rolled their eyes. Sir LaserGuy had been trying to split people off all evening.

“You know, all your badgering has made me realise that you are simply here to cause trouble,” replied Sir bessie.

“Yeah, it’s about time you actually took on a bit of responsibility,” agreed Sir MasterOfAll. “Perhaps you’d like to take on the Mouse yourself?” circling around the other side of the other knight, so that Sir LaserGuy was stood between the two other knights, looking back and forth nervously between the two of them.

Sir MasterOfAll nodded to Sir bessie, and the two leapt on the third knight. Although bigger than the two of them, Sir LaserGuy couldn’t take break free as they took hold of the knight’s limbs, and pinned them to the ground.

Sir Jimbob walked up and offered the pair a piece of rope. “Looks like you could use a hand,” he said jovially. A minute later, Sir LaserGuy was bound hand and foot, and his mouth stuffed with an old piece of cloth. The group returned to the camp, carrying the knight between them. Sir Jimbob went to sit down, whilst Sir bessie growled in disappointment as Sir MasterOfAll produced a key out of their pocket, and let the dog out of the cage, and pushed Sir LaserGuy inside, before locking up again.

“Sorry about the dog, Sir bessie,” responded the other knight. “I was just so frustrated with it after last night.”

“Harrumph…” muttered Sir bessie. “Very well, I forgive you, for now… Now, do you have a suggestion for how to take on this stupid Mouse? Sir Jimbob seems to be quite happy sitting and watching us tear each other apart, rather than actually lead.”

“As a matter of fact, I do,” replied Sir MasterOfAll. “Have you noticed that we’ve been constantly arguing, as a group, and then we’ve tried to send somebody off solo to deal with the Mouse. We haven’t been working together, and have been trying to take all the honour for ourselves. If we work together, maybe we can achieve something. Here’s what I suggest…”

The pair stood and talked for a few minutes, before agreeing that they were ready to take on the Beast together. With nobody getting in their way, it seemed like they might just succeed. They split up, with Sir bessie slowly making their way on the direct route from the camp to the spot where the Mouse had last been seen, and Sir MasterOfAll circling around behind.

They found the Mouse in the centre of a clearing, perched on top of a rock, as it was wont to do, it seemed. Spying Sir bessie reach the edge of the clearing, Sir MasterOfAll shouted to get the Mouse’s attention. It turned to face and started squeaking angrily at the knight. Sir bessie meanwhile slowly snuck into the clearing, until the Mouse’s rock was only a few metres ahead. In one hand was one of the small black orbs Sir Sabrar had been wearing, acquired earlier in the quest for an emergency.

Once in position, the knight threw the orb at the Mouse, somehow throwing it clear over the animal’s head. With a bang, the orb exploded right in front of Sir MasterOfAll, who had been advancing from the other direction, sending the knight flying backwards. The Beast turned and leapt at Sir bessie, landing just short, due to a hasty retreat. It didn’t stay put though, and was soon running after Sir bessie, who was doing her best to sprint in full-plate in the other direction, gaining ground until the Mouse was nowhere to be seen. Sir MasterOfAll climbed back to their feet and ran too. The pair met back up near the camp.

“Well, that didn’t work quite as planned, did it?” gasped Sir MasterOfAll.

“No, indeed not. Listen, I have another idea, and it involves zero attempts to take down the Mouse.” replied Sir bessie.

The two knights walked back into the camp. Sir Jimbob looked up from where he’d been sitting, sharpening his sword. “Ah, you’re back. Did you succeed?”

“We did!” the knights lied together.

“Alas,” continued Sir MasterOfAll, “Sir bessie’s orb struck the Beast of Weihnachten right in the middle and caused it to be obliterated. There wasn’t anything left to bring back.”

“Of course, we swear on our honour that it was so,” the other knight added. “You can be sure that the Beast will no more trouble us.”

“Very well,” the leader replied. “I declare this quest complete! Your names will be celebrated forevermore. At least until next week.”


LaserGuy was lynched. He was Sir Donner the Benevolent, member of the Mafia:
Spoiler:
Character Name: Sir Donner the Benevolent

Flavour:

You were raised believing that gifts are meant to be shared. With the great Winter’s festival fast-approaching and the appropriate distribution of presents, you decide this applies to everyone’s. And of course, for whom if not for the whole group on this quest?

People don’t really agree with your policy, but between you and your best friend Sir Alan the Annoying, you plan on … enforcing it.

Role:
Gift Swapper

Mechanics: Each night you may target two players. At the end of the night, they will swap all powers except factional abilities permanently. The players’ new powers will be included in their flip, and not their original powers. You may never target the same player more than once.

Win Condition: You are a member of the Mafia, together with Sir Alan the Annoying (wam). You win when all others have been eliminated, and at least one Mafia member is still alive, or nothing can prevent this from happening.

Factional Abilities: You have access to a factional night kill. Please inform the mods who you wish to kill each night, and which Mafia member will perform the kill. You have day and night chat with wam. Feel free to create a quicktopic, or use PMs, but please CC the mods in all communication.

Hidden Mechanics: The power acts last in resolution order, and can affect dead players (but not deliberately target them).
Game Over! Congratulations to Town on your victory!

bessie was Sir Prancer the Chaste, member of Town:
Spoiler:
Character Name: Sir Prancer the Chaste

Flavour:

People say they want to kiss under the mistletoe, but ever since you saw a stablehand try to use it to pursue someone who clearly wasn't interested, you've become more interested in helping people avoid unwanted affections. Forcing people to kiss is no fun; forcing people to back off when they're bothering someone, now that's what I call a calling!

Power: Santa’s List

Mechanics: Twice per game, at night, and no more than once per night, you can submit a list of all living players (except yourself) to the mods. You must label each player either Naughty (non-town) or Nice (town). You will be informed at the end of the night the number of mistakes you made.

Win Condition: You are a member of the Town and win when all threats to Town have been eliminated, and at least one member of Town is still alive.

Hidden Mechanics: None
MasterOfAll was Sir Talkalot the Loud, member of Town:
Spoiler:
Character Name: Sir Talkalot the Loud

Flavour:

In your quest to become the greatest ventriloquist you have traveled the world to learn from the best. On your quest you were helped by a strange fellow. He taught you a trick that allows you to detach a part of your voice and provide it to someone else.

Role Name:
Santa’s Presents

Mechanics: Each night, you may target a player. That player will be given a lump of coal (they will be informed). Players keep their coal until the end of the game. In addition, each night you may target a player. You will be informed if that player has been targeted by a player with a lump of coal at some point in the game.

Win Condition: You are a member of the Town and win when all threats to Town have been eliminated, and at least one member of Town is still alive.

Hidden Mechanics: Does not give coal when killed.


Thank you everyone for playing, and thank you to dimochka for assisting with the modding! Apologies for the mistakes, and for not quite getting the balance right in one or two ways.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:19 pm UTC

If anybody is interested, here is the full set of flavour I wrote for each night message and so on: https://docs.google.com/document/d/11hT ... sp=sharing.

Here is the spreadsheet I used recording night actions and resolution: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Here is the spreadsheet I used as a basis for interaction information etc, though it is incomplete in one or two areas: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

In retrospect, I'd have made probably two changes to the setup:

1) Given Sabrar a definitive list of items that he could manufacture, with drawbacks (hidden or otherwise) to all of them.
2) Made at least one non-town member a Godfather and/or one town member a Miller, or simply introduced a hidden element to moody's ability that changed the result by some amount (e.g. +1 mistake).

Unfortunately, a number of my planned balancing factors didn't come into play for various reasons. Examples include bessie's ability always blocking something each night, when it was anticipated that it might just block the first action the following night, Sabrar's items never actually having a drawback that affected the game, and the Yin Yang ability never actually preventing anything beneficial to town. The only one that did become relevant was the Underdog. Had MasterOfAll been mislynched D4, then the game almost certainly would have ended in an SK victory, with LaserGuy probably killing moody, and Mark killing LaserGuy, leaving Mark alive with bessie only. However, such is life. I hope everybody enjoyed the game.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

Postby Sabrar » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:33 pm UTC

Good job town, I was worried that bessie would focus too much on the N1 shenanigans and mislynch MOA in the end, luckily moody's flip prevented that.

Thank you mods for creating the game. moody's ability was very strong, it was a bit fortunate that we were paranoid enough to worry about Godfathers and game didn't basically become solved D2.

wam is rapidly becoming the new freezeblade. :D

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

Postby moody7277 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:03 pm UTC

As you might have seen in the spoilers, I had a whole list of things I expected were downsides of the list power. Turns out that none pertained.

SJ: Being SK in your first game is a really steep learning curve, and I'm rather impressed that you survived until D3.
The story of my life in xkcdmafia:

Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Vicarin
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

Postby Vicarin » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:51 pm UTC

Yay!

Out of interest, how many town remaining would there have to be with 1 Mafia and 1 SK alive to get the Underdog to convert to town ? Or is it basically impossible for the underdog to not become scum due to the multi all nature?

Although Moody's ability was ridiculously good, town needed to have a perfect record and a doc save to get there after a single mislynch D1, so we probably needed such strong abilities. That, or just hope scum murders each other.

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LaserGuy
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:38 pm UTC

Good game. Congrats to Town!

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:45 pm UTC

Vicarin wrote:Out of interest, how many town remaining would there have to be with 1 Mafia and 1 SK alive to get the Underdog to convert to town ? Or is it basically impossible for the underdog to not become scum due to the multi all nature?
If Town had been eliminated first, then the Underdog would have become Town. Also, if at any point Mafia would have equalled remaining town + SK, then the Underdog would have joined Town. There were probably some other corner cases that might have arisen, especially around MYLO/LYLO mislynches but I can't remember what they were, nor really be bothered to work them out.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

Postby mpolo » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:37 am UTC

Congratulations town! Sorry for having to flake out like that.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

Postby Mark_Cangila » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:25 pm UTC

Yeah, my entire plan was based on a moa mislynch.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

Postby Mark_Cangila » Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:05 am UTC

I had the game basically solved by the end of d3. I just didn't know bessie's role.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

Postby wam » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:02 am UTC

Good game town. I keep rolling scum at the moment. Will end up with freezeblades reputation!
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bessie
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

Postby bessie » Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:41 pm UTC

Shout outs!

mpolo
Sorry you had to drop out, as I always look to you for inspiration and clarity of mind late in the game.

Vicarin
Thanks for replacing, I would have protected you but I really thought mafia might go for Mark. I missed you on D4 when I was still questioning (moody, LaserGuy, MoA) and didn’t have a partner to focus my mind. (And why were you so sure about Sabrar and the post restriction??)

Madge
The end of day timing worked against you, and I think if you had checked in near end of D1 you would not have been lynched. I hope you at least had fun chatting with plytho (in my opinion a great consolation prize), and I’m sure your thoughts helped plytho organize his, and that you weren’t as useless as you thought you were.

BoomFrog
I get the feeling that the most boring game ever for BoomFrog would be if right from the start of D1 everyone universally town-read him and agreed with everything he said, regardless of his alignment. And it would be the most boring game for me too because pondering the puzzle of BoomFrog is one of the things that keeps this game interesting for me.

wam
Mafia had it tough in this game, and not just because of your meta :lol: :P . You somehow managed to dodge the noose on D1, but alas all the N1 actions lined up right for town. You should know better than to even discuss confirmation posts with me by now... :wink:

Mark_Cangila
Good job playing an extremely challenging role. Some feedback, first of all, regardless of your alignment, you need to fully commit playing the game from the point-of-view of town from the very start. I think you were too non-committal in your D1 reads, perhaps because you didn’t know who your teammates would be, and you were suspicious for it. Second, the way you were using your power was sub optimal for town, what you were doing by trying to form a townie block did help confirm scum in the end, but gave less information than selecting different targets every night. I want to add that I was very impressed how you argued your points against plytho and others, and made me pretty confident you were not mafia. You are a very difficult to read player, which can be quite a benefit in this game.

moody7277
Yep, the usual. You never change, you’re scummy even when you’re townie. Brilliant second use of your power, it should have wrapped it up for town if I wasn’t so stubborn. You shouldn’t have claimed 2-shot though, I was still hoping to find a way to draw the NK (I was uncertain if I was still a bomb). You and I really need to work on our mind meld.

SuicideJunkie
You did a great job for your first game with a very difficult role, even more so because of the chaos of the Secret Santa game setup. Some feedback, because I want to help you improve your game, so you have lots of fun and stick around. You really shouldn’t have self-hammered. Technically, you’re not supposed to play against your win condition (see more below in my mod comments), though I understand that you were feeling cornered and couldn’t see a way out. I felt that way myself in Texas Hold’em. But you should also consider that the lynch can swing quickly and unexpectedly and it’s never a done deal until hammer or deadline. For an example read through D1 of Wheel of Time 2. I was so certain that I was going to be the D1 lynch that I left for work in the morning without submitting my night action (the game was pseudo-nightless), and I held the game up while jimbob kindly waited for me. There were other close calls (BoomFrog in Crossover comes to mind). Another suggestion that may or may not have worked, don’t be afraid to ask the mod for a false claim, perhaps they might help out the newbie with a townie false power, and the worst that can happen is they say no! Anyway, I really like your continued enthusiasm even after your death, and I look forward to playing with you again.

LaserGuy
Re the comment I made about you in this post (under spoiler, bessie’s standard woof-grr list):
bessie wrote:LaserGuy – can place himself anywhere on this list he decides to on D1
This wasn’t a throwaway remark, I think your gameplay really has advanced to the point where you can present yourself however you wish to be read, and not just on D1. I’m not yet sure how this will affect me, as I’ve of late started to look to you as my light (with Sabrar, mpolo, et al) when I’m confused and struggling. I intentionally didn’t vote D4, because I wanted to see what you would do. Perhaps I should just decide you and I will always be on the same team (I can will that, right?? :P ).

MasterOfAll
Sorry for doubting you, but I was suspicious as to why you never used the ventriloquist power after what you said in this post. Fortunately for town you were level-headed enough to hold steady against my tunneling on D4, and you won this game for town. Re this post:
MasterOfAll wrote:Last night I had a dream about this game.
Hahaha I think many of us do that. 8-) You’re one of us for sure now. Please don’t wait a year again before joining another game.

plytho
As usual, you keep this game interesting for me, and arguing debating conversing with you is always something I look forward to after a long work day. Re this post:
plytho wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote: I'm sad that MoA decided not to use his ability though...
Yeah, me too. :(
bessie, the greatest dog in the world wrote:Someone submitted the ventriloquist role. And that person will be a candidate for my D1 tunnel in our next game.
:twisted:
I am so totally pleased that it is you! (I knew it had to be you or BoomFrog). I have penciled this in for our next game. And I apologize for any remarks I have made regarding this role. It sounds like it would have been great fun, but in general I am against restrictions that limit posting, because sometimes it can be hard enough to get people to post, and wow that quoting restriction would have been difficult for those that play on their phones. Might be fun to try on one of our small “filler” games (like Poetry mafia) though.

[Also, the post plytho quoted was an error on my part. It totally did not even occur to me that this comment violated Rule #7 or I would not have made it; I didn’t even notice until at least a day or two later. Apologies to the mods, you would have been justified in penalizing me.]

Sabrar
Did the stars (and the player list) actually align this time, that in spite of all the powers we were targeted with on N1 we still ended up neighbors? I’m disappointed we didn’t get the lovers'-bomb-death, I’m sure jimbob would have written something spectacular.
Spoiler:
Image



Game notes

Thank you to our brilliant mods for running the game. The flavor was so spectacular I laughed at every mod post.

@jimbobmacdoodle – Was I still wearing the bomb after Sabrar died? I never disconnected, and I was trying to think of a way to use it to take out the last scum (which likely wouldn’t work anyway because moody’s protective power made him the only NK choice).

Also I’m disappointed that I specifically asked if I could quote my role pm for Sabrar and was told that quoting any mod communication wasn’t allowed in chat, but it appears mafia quoted their role pms and mod communication in chat.

Re this post:
dimochka wrote:The decision to not let the dead people in plytho's chats officially know his alignment was intentional. Yes, it would help with townies who would subsequently trust him more, but it would make his conversations with scum useless in my opinion. By not confirming alignment, plytho has a chance of convincing scum that he is also non-town and in that way get some important info he otherwise would not have.
This is brilliant, and especially powerful in the hands of someone with plytho’s reasoning skills. I’m so disappointed that plytho didn’t live longer so we could see how this power played out and if it actually helped catch scum.

Re this post:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:One of the reasons that rule 7 needs to exist is because without it, everybody will just claim what they submitted day 1 and then it becomes a case of trying to solve a logic puzzle ("whoever has the xor cop should target A and B, whoever has the doctor should target C etc) and one of the core parts of forum mafia is lost.
Agree with the reasoning behind this, but it seems to turn in to a sticking point every year. I think there are other options that perhaps we can explore next year. I was so busy the week you were setting this up and didn’t reply to your request for suggestions, but I think one thing you could have done was write one role and discard one submission (this was the same suggestion I made for the post restrictions in WoT3), that way no one could be 100% sure of any particular role in the game (except role pm and flips).

SuicideJunkie’s self hammer- I’m disappointed that this was allowed and that he managed to kill Sabrar, because he was playing against his win condition. I guess that technically there was still a way for him to win, but he had no way of knowing this. Since the hammer was allowed and Sabrar also died, I guessed that SuicideJunkie was mafia and protecting a third partner, and selected my night action accordingly. I understand that this was one of those difficult mod decisions, and I’m glad it wasn’t mine because I’m sure I couldn’t have done better, but I’m still disappointed. If SuicideJunkie wasn’t a newbie I would have been screaming about this not being a modkill on D4.

Mark’s role- I really like this role, however, the opening post strongly implies that there are no alignment or win condition changing roles, so I feel that having this role in the game was somewhat misleading. jimbob, was Mark always going to be considered indie and cop as non town, even if he got the town win condition?

That's all have for now, thanks again jimbobmacdoodle and dimochka, I feel Secret Santa is always a difficult game to mod (and I'm always afraid to volunteer) and you did a spectacular job and made it very fun.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

Postby LaserGuy » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:50 pm UTC

@bessie: Rule 7 specifically says you're allowed to quote your role PM and submitted role in chat groups.

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Vicarin
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

Postby Vicarin » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:57 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
Vicarin wrote:Out of interest, how many town remaining would there have to be with 1 Mafia and 1 SK alive to get the Underdog to convert to town ? Or is it basically impossible for the underdog to not become scum due to the multi all nature?
If Town had been eliminated first, then the Underdog would have become Town. Also, if at any point Mafia would have equalled remaining town + SK, then the Underdog would have joined Town. There were probably some other corner cases that might have arisen, especially around MYLO/LYLO mislynches but I can't remember what they were, nor really be bothered to work them out.


I was more wondering if it was reasonably possible for Mark to become town, without town not just immediately losing again after. Because it seems like after becoming town the game would be in a 2-2-1 or 1-1-1 situation, both of which are terrible for town.

@bessie: as I said, I thought that it would be very unlikely to have a single self post restriction role, and have Sabrar happen to get it. Far more likely that he was just messing around. And lo and behold, that's what was happening.

Also, I don't really have an issue with the self hammer, especially seeing as I did it last game. I do think it was a bit premature though.

The alignment changing thing was interesting because mpolo had submitted SJ's role, but the submitted version was a indie who rigs explosives under a person each night, and when they die all the explosives go off, winning if there's no one alive after (also why I tried to get people to back off when I was sure what he was). This made me rather suspicious about how it'd been changed to comply with a power switcher, and jimbob clarified that the powers couldn't but left the possibility of changes in general.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

Postby SuicideJunkie » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:27 am UTC

The game was definitely stressful, and I feel like I should have done the opposite of what I did each night (evening out the night kills would have made things much less suspicious), but had no way to know at the time.

The way I was looking at it, the closest I could get to the win is to take as many people with me as possible and not let the cursed unvote after the clock was almost run down. If Vicarin did manage to get people off me, it probably would have been to Laserguy, and then we'd be down to Mark as mafia.
The second chance from Mark was a nice surprise and actually make a good chance of me winning. Too bad it didn't pan out tho.

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Good job playing an extremely challenging role. Some feedback, first of all, regardless of your alignment, you need to fully commit playing the game from the point-of-view of town from the very start
That's what I tried to do. I'm just a townie with a penchant for stabbing as a hobby! A perfectly normal guy trying to figure out who scum are!
I took too long to consider saying miller and/or vig however, and then it was too late to not be suspicious.

By my math, the underdog has to play like a SK until the endgame; keep the numbers balanced so if you do roll town, there aren't too many LYLO turns in a row left.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

Postby bessie » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:28 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:@bessie: Rule 7 specifically says you're allowed to quote your role PM and submitted role in chat groups.
I interpreted Rule #7 as being allowed to discuss (not quote) the submitted role in chat. I asked because I didn’t want to violate Standard Rule #6, and was told I couldn’t quote my role pm in chat (I wanted Sabrar to see the exact wording of my role pm). Meh, I’ll just chalk it up to my (probably well deserved) punishment for what I said about the ventriloquist role, and any other sins I very likely committed in the course of this game.

Vicarin wrote:Also, I don't really have an issue with the self hammer, especially seeing as I did it last game.
My memory of Brooklyn99 is a bit cloudy; I had a lot going on in RL. Hmm, why didn’t I object at the time, I honestly can’t remember. I guess things might have been different if. . ., but like I said, this was a tough call and I’m sure jimbob and dimochka made the right decision. I reserve the right to be disappointed though. I’ll just chalk this one up to me being pouty over losing my long-awaited chat with Sabrar.

SuicideJunkie, you played a great game with a really difficult role!

SuicideJunkie wrote:By my math, the underdog has to play like a SK until the endgame; keep the numbers balanced so if you do roll town, there aren't too many LYLO turns in a row left.
You should always try to think and play like town. Keeping the factions balanced, well that’s the mind set of an indie. I’m not good at behavioral reads, but there are others on this forum that are, and they would pick up on this instantly (like seriously, SDK would spot it in your first post).

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

Postby SuicideJunkie » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:05 am UTC

I'd make the distinction that playing like a SK still means trying to seem like town. In the same sense that the mafia need to seem like town, but can't actually play like town because that would be self-defeating.

Both underdog and SK are best off if the teams are evenly whittled down before the endgame, while separately, everyone is better off if everyone else thinks they're town.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

Postby Sabrar » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:24 am UTC

Vicarin wrote:The alignment changing thing was interesting because mpolo had submitted SJ's role, but the submitted version was a indie who rigs explosives under a person each night, and when they die all the explosives go off, winning if there's no one alive after (also why I tried to get people to back off when I was sure what he was).
We were supposed to submit roles that would work with all alignments and I didn't think submitting any new wincon-s was okay. I even asked if I was able to create a new wincon with my inventions and was refused. So I really don't understand why this role made it into the game, specifically as it was then assigned to the SK and not randomly distributed.

Re rule 7: I get why not being able to claim your submitted role is important (though with the hidden mechanics it can actively work against town as it almost happened in this game). But not being able to imply that you did not submit a specific role (or even just an aspect of it) is not viable, this rule gets broken left and right even unintentionally.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

Postby Vicarin » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:17 am UTC

@bessie: honestly, I could believe that you were too distracted by the Sash wincon shenanigans to care about the self-hammer :P. I just did it in that game because literally everyone was pointing at me to be the next lynch, and we were just twiddling our thumbs for another day if I didn't, so I just decided to speed it up a bit. While I can appreciate the value of wildly swinging wagons occasionally causing upsets, I think if someone thinks they're 99% to get lynched or so that it's probably best to not drag it out.

@Sabrar: yeah, I don't know, had to just go with what mpolo had put in. And make my setup spec as blatantly indie focused as possible :P.

And yes, there were a loooot of unintentional rule 7 breaks this game. Very hard to talk about roles and their mechanics without letting on something about whether you knew of their general existence beforehand.

I mean, we could have everyone submit something like 3 slightly simpler roles each, and then each person has one of those taken at random and put into the pool. Mass claiming all the possible roles D1 isn't terribly useful then, and gives scum a bit more room to hide. And you can't make plans based around certain combinations of roles interacting.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:07 am UTC

This is mostly just a post to say that I've seen everyone's comments and want to address them, but I gonna doing it at my laptop once I'm home will be more productive than trying to get everything whilst phone posting on the bus.

A couple of key things to note though: when deciding on the setup, I ignored mpolo's requested win condition, as it was against the rules saying all roles could be usable by all alignments. However, when discussing the setup with dimochka, I decided that the curse would be a nice variation on an SK role anyway, so went with that idea. I guess I could have informed mpolo (and therefore Vicarin) that we were ignoring the win condition part.

As for quoting PMs etc, my intention had been for that to only be allowed in groups which were knowingly co-aligned. In this game, that would be only Mafia, but I didn't want to outright say that in the rules, because I wanted to avoid minimising setup possibilities. Sorry for the confusion.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:30 pm UTC

bessie wrote:@jimbobmacdoodle – Was I still wearing the bomb after Sabrar died? I never disconnected, and I was trying to think of a way to use it to take out the last scum (which likely wouldn’t work anyway because moody’s protective power made him the only NK choice).
No, the bomb effectively disappeared with Sabrar's death, because he was the one holding the item.

bessie wrote:Also I’m disappointed that I specifically asked if I could quote my role pm for Sabrar and was told that quoting any mod communication wasn’t allowed in chat, but it appears mafia quoted their role pms and mod communication in chat.
The reason to not allow direct role PM is to prevent players using exact wording of PMs to prove/disprove somebody's alignment or similar such issues. The difference between your chat and the Mafia chat is that the Mafia knew each other's alignment. That meant that there wasn't a reason to prevent them being able to share it, whereas you and Sabrar did not know for certain that you were both Town. If you'd been Masons, it would have been different.

bessie wrote:Re this post:
dimochka wrote:The decision to not let the dead people in plytho's chats officially know his alignment was intentional. Yes, it would help with townies who would subsequently trust him more, but it would make his conversations with scum useless in my opinion. By not confirming alignment, plytho has a chance of convincing scum that he is also non-town and in that way get some important info he otherwise would not have.
This is brilliant, and especially powerful in the hands of someone with plytho’s reasoning skills. I’m so disappointed that plytho didn’t live longer so we could see how this power played out and if it actually helped catch scum.
Especially as plytho seemed to have wam convinced that he was a vig, so could probably have drawn conclusions about his buddy's alignment.

bessie wrote:Re this post:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:One of the reasons that rule 7 needs to exist is because without it, everybody will just claim what they submitted day 1 and then it becomes a case of trying to solve a logic puzzle ("whoever has the xor cop should target A and B, whoever has the doctor should target C etc) and one of the core parts of forum mafia is lost.
Agree with the reasoning behind this, but it seems to turn in to a sticking point every year. I think there are other options that perhaps we can explore next year. I was so busy the week you were setting this up and didn’t reply to your request for suggestions, but I think one thing you could have done was write one role and discard one submission (this was the same suggestion I made for the post restrictions in WoT3), that way no one could be 100% sure of any particular role in the game (except role pm and flips).
I actually almost considered this, because Vicarin submitted a role even though he was only a replacement, partly because I wasn't at all happy with one or two of the submissions, and was considering dropping them completely.

bessie wrote:SuicideJunkie’s self hammer- I’m disappointed that this was allowed and that he managed to kill Sabrar, because he was playing against his win condition. I guess that technically there was still a way for him to win, but he had no way of knowing this. Since the hammer was allowed and Sabrar also died, I guessed that SuicideJunkie was mafia and protecting a third partner, and selected my night action accordingly. I understand that this was one of those difficult mod decisions, and I’m glad it wasn’t mine because I’m sure I couldn’t have done better, but I’m still disappointed. If SuicideJunkie wasn’t a newbie I would have been screaming about this not being a modkill on D4.
I didn't really know what, if anything I could sensibly do about SuicideJunkie's self-hammer. You're right that it could possibly be considered anti-win condition, but there were other factors that came into play with it anyway, including his explosion, the fact that there was an Underdog in the game, and the fact that the SK could win even whilst not still being alive. Basically, that rule is mostly there to prevent people trying to get themselves recruited by cult, or throwing the game as mafia. I don't think the self-hammer was really that way.

bessie wrote:Mark’s role- I really like this role, however, the opening post strongly implies that there are no alignment or win condition changing roles, so I feel that having this role in the game was somewhat misleading. jimbob, was Mark always going to be considered indie and cop as non town, even if he got the town win condition?
I think I see where the confusion came from, but the rule about no alignment changing roles was specifically about submissions (and the Underdog wasn't part of the submission). I actually messed up in Gojoe claiming there couldn't be a cult, because based on that there could be. That and I think it's debatable as to whether Mark's role was truly alignment changing, or as somebody else mentioned, more like hidden win condition. When I think of that rule, I think along the lines of things like active roles that change somebody's alignment, e.g. a Town-ifier which converts Mafia to Town, or similar. I didn't consider the interaction of his theoretical town conversion plus cop, but I'd probably have given a Town result.

bessie wrote:That's all have for now, thanks again jimbobmacdoodle and dimochka, I feel Secret Santa is always a difficult game to mod (and I'm always afraid to volunteer) and you did a spectacular job and made it very fun.
Thanks bessie. I'm glad you enjoyed the flavour. I'm not the most natural at writing fluff, and I made it harder for myself later on by trying to make everybody (except for Sir Jimbob) gender neutral for the background - it seemed weird having female knights, so I couldn't really use "her" and "she" with Sir bessie and Sir Madge whilst at the same time using "he" and "him" for you also felt wrong. Thank you for the little bit of inspiration for the final night's background too, with the cage!
Vicarin wrote:I was more wondering if it was reasonably possible for Mark to become town, without town not just immediately losing again after. Because it seems like after becoming town the game would be in a 2-2-1 or 1-1-1 situation, both of which are terrible for town.
Whilst 2-2-1 is not great for town, by that point, the SK has to try to kill Mafia, and the Mafia are trying to kill the SK, so Town just has to duck and hope they don't get caught in the crossfire. A successful lynch of Mafia (if Day) or a cross kill (if night) would actually see town in quite a strong position. In a 1-1-1 situation, Town are basically hoping that the two scum kill each other. In that instance, if Day, a No Lynch is Town's best shout, although a sensible SK with this game would just lynch the player voting No Lynch, and die in the crossfire to scum. If Night, Town have a very good chance of winning.
Vicarin wrote:The alignment changing thing was interesting because mpolo had submitted SJ's role, but the submitted version was a indie who rigs explosives under a person each night, and when they die all the explosives go off, winning if there's no one alive after (also why I tried to get people to back off when I was sure what he was). This made me rather suspicious about how it'd been changed to comply with a power switcher, and jimbob clarified that the powers couldn't but left the possibility of changes in general.
The curse ability was not part of the SK factional ability, so could have been switched to another player, which would have made the job a lot harder, as it was there to make up for the every other night kill. Mark's ability was intended to aid him in keeping the balance between teams, but he lost it on N1, so that didn't work. As I mentioned earlier, I think, the fact that the curse was given to the SK was a design choice independent of mpolo's submission (similar to Mark having the Yin Yang ability initially).
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

Postby Mark_Cangila » Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:40 am UTC

I really need to get good at directing a mislynch. It's a super valuable skill to have.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

Postby MasterOfAll » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:36 am UTC

Yay, I won. Thanks for not lynching me, all those days y'all were thinking of lynching me. (I wouldn't have been surprised if I had been lynched D1.)

Yeah, I was super lazy town this game. Because at first it was D1, and D1's suck. And then on D2 and later we had cool cop results to follow. And I knew that one of those cop results (mpolo's) was genuine because it matched what I submitted. And then I was too lazy to think about the ways that those cop results might possibly be wrong (although I was a bit disappointed that LaserGuy didn't make more of an effort on the final day to point out how Mark's lack of a definite alignment the first couple days might have skewed moody's results).

Also, credit to moody for the way he used his power and revealed his results. I still think that list power he had is a bit OP, but moody used it to maximum effectiveness and the town win is directly attributed to him.

And, yes wam, I read your scum chat and it is pretty amazing that you thought to fake claim the exact role that I submitted for this game (before changing your claim to 3 targets) but it was also kinda frustrating to know the hidden mechanics of the role that I submitted without being able to share that knowledge explicitly. And even with the bit of extra info I had, I still didn't know that bessie had ended up self-targeting on D1.

And, for the record, I am still pretty happy with the XOR cop role that I submitted, including the hidden target swap mechanic (because, given the option for hidden mechanics, why not?) because I think it is a useful power role for town (and pre-game I am more likely to be town) and also a fun role to figure out how best to use the role.

And, yes, I agree that it would be better to figure out some other way to discourage early submitted role claims, because that rule 7 was kind of awkward.

Also, also: I am still glad that I did not trigger the emoji curse portion of my role. I'm sure it would have been amusing, but the 'cursed ventriloquist' label of my role kept me wary, and honestly, I'm way too old to try to communicate by emojis.

Finally, thanks mods for putting in the effort to run this game.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

Postby plytho » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:28 am UTC

bessie wrote:plytho
As usual, you keep this game interesting for me, and arguing debating conversing with you is always something I look forward to after a long work day. Re this post:
plytho wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote: I'm sad that MoA decided not to use his ability though...
Yeah, me too. :(
bessie, the greatest dog in the world wrote:Someone submitted the ventriloquist role. And that person will be a candidate for my D1 tunnel in our next game.
:twisted:
I am so totally pleased that it is you! (I knew it had to be you or BoomFrog). I have penciled this in for our next game. And I apologize for any remarks I have made regarding this role. It sounds like it would have been great fun, but in general I am against restrictions that limit posting, because sometimes it can be hard enough to get people to post, and wow that quoting restriction would have been difficult for those that play on their phones. Might be fun to try on one of our small “filler” games (like Poetry mafia) though.

Yeah, I understand. It was supposed to a funstrating role (fun and frustrating at the same time) where the restriction was pretty harsh because the results would be powerful. I didn't really consider how other play-styles would have trouble playing this role.
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