The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

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adnapemit
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby adnapemit » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:57 am UTC

Diablo:
Spoiler:
*sigh* Why does it have to be the player I think is most likely to side with town just because they are town that I have to convince to side with mafia.

Maybe I need to get some propaganda going. "Vote with scum:we are not really evil*"

*just trying to kill all of town but totally nice guys if you are neutral
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[adnapemit|timepanda]
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:39 pm UTC

Diablo:
Spoiler:
Oh plytho, why did you have to point it out. Now scum might catch on and realise the problem.
BlitzGirl the Primordial
matthewglen wrote:Cueball looks concerned.

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bessie
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby bessie » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:50 pm UTC

Diablo mafia
Spoiler:
Well I guess I need to convince jimbobmacdoodle that it is in his best interests (and I believe it is) for him to side with town. Sorry spectators, no secrets for you right now, I'm going to post it all in the game thread. I'll be back.

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LaserGuy
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby LaserGuy » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:29 am UTC

Diablo Mafia:

Spoiler:
I still don't know what to make of the whole random/nonrandom spec thing. I'm sure it will make sense when we can see the whole game put together, but it's definitely a liability trying to make a completely truthful claim and have it not be believed because it goes against the most straightforward interpretation of the spec. Er, mostly completely truthful.

I am amused that the things that I am being truthful about, bessie doesn't believe at all, while the things I'm lying about, she's more willing to accept. There's some kind of lesson there, I'm sure. For instance: Sabrar targeting bessie N1, completely true (for more or less the reasons I sketched out). Sabrar targeting SirGabriel/ahippo N2 is a lie (I killed him with the strongman), but she isn't disputing that (yet). I think that was probably one of the bigger risks we took this game--it was early enough that I guess we could afford it, but it would have been REALLY helpful had we gone after a townie target with myself or adnapemit instead (we were mulling about forgetting recruiting and going for mpolo for a bit). It's interesting to see immediately how night kills can throw people off though. We never really targeted townies because they were strong players, or because they suspected us, or even because the were confirmed (eg. Madge). We picked likely townies that were fairly low profile, mostly focusing on not drawing attention to ourselves. I don't know that this was the optimal approach, since we ended up facing basically three confirmed townies today, but there isn't really a clear line between us and any of our kills.

I think I am right about the bessie/jimbob recruit option though. It's the most sensible way to resolve those claims.

I'm slightly more optimistic about our chances of winning. I think if our plan holds to D6, we'll probably be okay. But we may need to get lucky and dodge a redirect from jimbob, so our chances are 50/50 at best. jimbob attempting to recruit bessie would be SUPER convenient on that front, of course, but I'd be somewhat surprised if he bites. Maybe bessie will bite and end up roleblocking him like Znirk did.

I was disappointed with how I played D3 and D4, but I'm feeling pretty good about D5. Even if we don't win, I think I've probably done about as well as I could have from the position we ended up in.

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Sabrar
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:37 am UTC

Diablo
Spoiler:
I'll be upset if we lose this just because bessie manages to convince jimbob that there is no strongman in the game because of how dimochka worded the setup.

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jimbobmacdoodle
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:06 pm UTC

Diablo:
Spoiler:
I clearly was not thinking straight in that last spoiler - if scum withhold tonight, we are in a perpetual deadlock, until I decide to flip to support Town.

I don't know what to think about the Gillian/Wirt possible interaction any more. I'm slightly concerned now that I think about it that it might make us lovers if we target each other. I'm not sure that would end well for me. There is also the possibility that it might change my alignment to pure Town, or bessie to allied survivor. The former would mean me needing to flip sides to Town with my voting, the latter would mean that I'd be safe, assuming that bessie being alive means me winning, regardless of which way things fall. However, I don't think I want to target bessie tonight with the redirection, just to see what happens, as I could hit the scum killer instead, which would be far more gratifying.
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matthewglen wrote:Cueball looks concerned.

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bessie
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby bessie » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:08 pm UTC

Diablo mafia
Spoiler:
Yes I'm just trying to frustrate scum right now. I'm also trying to back off jimbob because he can wrap it up for scum tonight if he wants to by redirecting town to freezeblade.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby dimochka » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:19 pm UTC

Diablo mafia (quick mod question/help)
Spoiler:
This is somewhat minor because that combination isn't actually in the game currently, but just curious how any of you would rule this:
If a strongman targets a PGO, who would die if you were modding?
If you're curious about the origin of my avatar, google "Cheburashka".

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Sabrar
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:26 pm UTC

Diablo
Spoiler:
Probably the strongman, it prevents blocks/docs but PGO is different mechanic entirely.

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Deva
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Deva » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:27 pm UTC

Diablo Mafia
Spoiler:
Both. Kills the Paranoid Gun Owner without fail. Triggers reactive fire.
Changes its form depending on the observer.

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SDK
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby SDK » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:29 pm UTC

dimochka wrote:Diablo mafia (quick mod question/help)
Spoiler:
This is somewhat minor because that combination isn't actually in the game currently, but just curious how any of you would rule this:
If a strongman targets a PGO, who would die if you were modding?

Diablo
Spoiler:
Depends on the wording of the Strongman role (feel free to share that role PM if you want a more concrete opinion), but the PGO kill is not a defensive ability, so I wouldn't expect a typical strongman to interact with it. Strongman dies.

I believe your PGO is a bit different in that it doesn't die when targeted by a killing ability though, right? If so, Strongman gets through that protection and both die.
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby dimochka » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:34 pm UTC

Diablo (@SDK + anyone else helping)
Spoiler:
Role PM:

Role: The Butcher
Description: Ever since Diablo was freed from his prison beneath the Cathedral, you aspired to be his servant. Diablo... the Lord of Terror... and you as his close confidant. You served Andariel for many years, but when she recently left to help Mephisto and Baal, you seized the opportunity to help her Lord. After all, the recent massacre requires some... particular skills when it comes to Fresh Meat!
Alignment: You are scum and win when all factions opposing you are eliminated or this outcome is inevitable.
Additional Information: You've lost count of just how many adventurers fell from a swing of your axe. The last one... that one was most satisfying of all. A Barbarian of the South Lands... you found it strange that he would be so far West, away from his home. But meat is meat. And who would remember that yet another barbarian is missing now?

Abilities:
- You have private night chat with Adnapemit (Diablo) and Sabrar (Archbishop Lazarus).
- If Diablo dies, Lazarus and you will control the night kill. Note that there are consequences for having the same individual using the night kill on subsequent nights.
- Killing puny humans is easy. Killing seasoned adventurers is harder but more up your alley. With your enchanted Carver, you can make sure that whomever you target stays dead, but you must leave the axe in their body for this to work. You have a one-shot strongman power which allows you to use your faction kill with no regard for actions that may prevent you from doing so.
If you're curious about the origin of my avatar, google "Cheburashka".

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Deva
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Deva » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:52 pm UTC

SDK wrote:Diablo
Spoiler:
Depends on the wording of the Strongman role (feel free to share that role PM if you want a more concrete opinion), but the PGO kill is not a defensive ability, so I wouldn't expect a typical strongman to interact with it. Strongman dies.

I believe your PGO is a bit different in that it doesn't die when targeted by a killing ability though, right? If so, Strongman gets through that protection and both die.

Diablo Mafia
Spoiler:
Appears standard for both to die.
MafiaScum Wiki wrote:Note that whatever powers were used on the PGO still take effect -- thus, if the Mafia choose to kill the PGO, the PGO will still die along with the Mafia performing the kill.
Changes its form depending on the observer.

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SDK
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby SDK » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:04 pm UTC

Deva wrote:Diablo Mafia
Spoiler:
Appears standard for both to die.
MafiaScum Wiki wrote:Note that whatever powers were used on the PGO still take effect -- thus, if the Mafia choose to kill the PGO, the PGO will still die along with the Mafia performing the kill.

Diablo
Spoiler:
Right, that's the standard. I believe freezeblade actually has kill immunity on the night he activates his PGO though (which the Strongman would get through).

I've seen Strongman roles that make them immune to being killed as well. dimochka's Strongman above is standard, of course.
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby dimochka » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:31 pm UTC

Thanks everyone!

Diablo (spec for future setup - please don't read if you're still alive in Diablo)
Spoiler:
Changes I plan to make to the next Diablo or similar game I run:
1. Semi open setup. All possible roles will be listed, but any given role is neither guaranteed to be in the game nor guaranteed to be unique (so depending on the dice roll there may be 0-3 doctors, for example, and it's possible for any of those to be non-town; I will, however, exercise some control for setups I deem seriously unbalanced).
2. Allocation of powers will be truly random. Mafia will have a night kill, but otherwise could have any powers.
3. There will be some recruitment, but people will be told specific mechanics behind them. This will also partially serve as an anti-claim mechanism. Also, no role will change alignments more than once. That is of course unless I just put a cult in game.
4. There will be some hidden aspects (naive miller, naive bodyguard), but most likely nothing more complex.
5. I though I made flavor not important for the game. And apparently I was wrong. So next one I'll try to make it matter even less. Maybe work with a town that was overtaken by demons but doesn't feature any named characters.

other suggestions welcome. I'm in no rush to run another game. I'm thinking after at least 2-3 other games get run. I'm also open to other setups, and any/all ideas.
If you're curious about the origin of my avatar, google "Cheburashka".

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby freezeblade » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:37 pm UTC

Diablo
Spoiler:
All these spoilers for Diablo are worrying. I know we're up against a wall here, but if jimbob sides with scum, when they could easily win with town (re-direct the kill to me), will color how I feel about their trustworthiness in future games.
Belial wrote:I am not even in the same country code as "the mood for this shit."

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Sabrar
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:04 pm UTC

Diablo
Spoiler:
Now I'm extremely curious on how dimochka phrased his answer to freezeblade to make him that sure that strongman can be redirected.
Or is he just bluffing?

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby bessie » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:02 am UTC

Diablo mafia
Spoiler:
The Gojoe thread certainly had an active day! What is everyone talking about? Me me me? How am I doing? I’d like to think that everyone is discussing my brilliance, but probably not. I have been pouring hours into this probably for nothing, because my part in this game is mostly over, and it’s up to jimbob to decide.

So what is everyone discussing? I know I’m not supposed to be gaming the game, but I can’t help it because I don’t do good player reads, I’m better at game reads. Wild-ass-guess is that they’re discussing how the strongman-redirector-PGO is going to work. It must be something about game mechanics because Deva is involved. Anyway, they settled it too quickly, so my unreliable gut instinct tells me that the discussion was theoretical and there isn’t really a strongman (anymore).

Oh well, I’m working on a post. I guess I’ll needle LaserGuy some more, just because he’s playing a really good game and he’s making this tough on me! Sabrar, are you getting irritated with me because I am trying to interpret your intentions and getting it wrong, and you can’t argue back? It’s not intentional. I still don’t believe you tried to recruit me. I think LaserGuy is lying because he wants jimbob to think I am recruitable and waste his night action on me.

More speculation for the benefit of the spectators: LaserGuy was telling the truth about being bulletproof. Funny how he picked up here on a mistake I made where I said Gopher of Pern was bulletproof N1 (I meant to say commuter and I saw my mistake after I posted it). I suspected he was anyway, because I expect someone to be bulletproof. He probably got a 1-shot strongman to go along with it, which he used on Madge.

If LaserGuy is bulletproof, adnapemit will do the kill to protect against jimbob.

jimbob says my counting is wrong somewhere. Not true, my counting is fine.
D5: 3-2-1 no lynch.
N5: scum kill plytho, 2-2-1.
D6: lynch freezeblade, 1-2-1.
Nope, my count agrees with him up to this point. Our disagreement is not on the counting, but on the N6 action, and I’ve explained how I see N6 twice already. Maybe he is trying to tell me something. Something like bessie shut up I got it. I’m going to leave it alone.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Madge » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:27 am UTC

Diablo Mafia
Spoiler:
I agree, the PGO and strongman both die in the hypothetical.

In terms of the unasked question of how that interacts with the redirect....

"You have a one-shot strongman power which allows you to use your faction kill with no regard for actions that may prevent you from doing so."

"actions that will prevent you from [using your faction kill]" is the key clause here. Redirector still lets you *use* the kill. If the wording had been actions that would prevent you from killing your target then you'd be having another story....

it's amazing how tiny things in the phrasing can really mess with you, hey?
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Sabrar
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:36 am UTC

Diablo
Spoiler:
bessie wrote:Sabrar, are you getting irritated with me because I am trying to interpret your intentions and getting it wrong, and you can’t argue back?
You don't know the half of it. :D

Regarding PGO and Strongman: I've had a chance to look at PGO descriptions on Mafia Universe and MafiaScum, it seems with standard PGO the action still goes through so both should die. Depends on the wording of the role in this specific case.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:45 pm UTC

Diablo:
Spoiler:
I really hope that LaserGuy doesn't have some method of stopping me redirecting him (or doesn't follow through on the threat to kill me if he has some way to do so).
BlitzGirl the Primordial
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby SDK » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:21 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:Diablo
Spoiler:
Now I'm extremely curious on how dimochka phrased his answer to freezeblade to make him that sure that strongman can be redirected.
Or is he just bluffing?

Diablo
Spoiler:
Now that jimbob is saying the same thing, I hope dimochka didn't make the mistake of confirming another player's ability. You can absolutely confirm that a typical Strongman can be redirected, but if it was confirmation that this particular strongman can be redirected, that's a big mistake.
The biggest number (63 quintillion googols in debt)

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dimochka
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby dimochka » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:43 pm UTC

SDK wrote:
Sabrar wrote:Diablo
Spoiler:
Now I'm extremely curious on how dimochka phrased his answer to freezeblade to make him that sure that strongman can be redirected.
Or is he just bluffing?

Diablo
Spoiler:
Now that jimbob is saying the same thing, I hope dimochka didn't make the mistake of confirming another player's ability. You can absolutely confirm that a typical Strongman can be redirected, but if it was confirmation that this particular strongman can be redirected, that's a big mistake.

Diablo
Spoiler:
Unfortunately, while I don't think I explicitly confirmed it, I think my implicit answer may have been closer to the latter and for that I apologize. Only my 2nd game modding, so I'm learning at every step. I think I'm going to ask for someone to co-mod with me next time.
If you're curious about the origin of my avatar, google "Cheburashka".

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SDK
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby SDK » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:19 pm UTC

Diablo
Spoiler:
You've done a good job overall, don't worry about it too much, but you definitely never ever ever want to talk specifics when something has only been claimed in-thread. You've always got to be really careful to dance around that as a mod, to never confirm that someone is lying, or (equally bad) confirm that someone is telling the truth.

If a player asks you "How does my ability interact with [this specific ability as worded right here]?", that's totally fair to answer. If someone asks you "How does my ability interact with freezeblade's?", then you decline to answer 100% of the time. Unless freezeblade is already dead, of course - then you're talking public information.

Would you mind sharing your conversation with jimbob? Not to harass you about it, just to know whether to count this as a proper town win. It might not be as bad as you think it is.
The biggest number (63 quintillion googols in debt)

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dimochka
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby dimochka » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:31 pm UTC

SDK wrote:Diablo
Spoiler:
You've done a good job overall, don't worry about it too much, but you definitely never ever ever want to talk specifics when something has only been claimed in-thread. You've always got to be really careful to dance around that as a mod, to never confirm that someone is lying, or (equally bad) confirm that someone is telling the truth.

If a player asks you "How does my ability interact with [this specific ability as worded right here]?", that's totally fair to answer. If someone asks you "How does my ability interact with freezeblade's?", then you decline to answer 100% of the time. Unless freezeblade is already dead, of course - then you're talking public information.

Would you mind sharing your conversation with jimbob? Not to harass you about it, just to know whether to count this as a proper town win. It might not be as bad as you think it is.

Diablo
Spoiler:
Jimbob: If I redirect a Strongman killer, who is targeting me, will my redirection redirect the kill, or will I die?

My Response: Assuming your redirection is successful, it will take precedence over the kill.
If you're curious about the origin of my avatar, google "Cheburashka".

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SDK
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby SDK » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:06 pm UTC

Diablo
Spoiler:
Oh, that's actually perfect. "Assuming your redirection is successful" covers your bases right there. If your Strongman can't be redirected (which would be different from the standard Strongman jimbob is presumably referencing), then he won't be redirected. Simple. You're good.
The biggest number (63 quintillion googols in debt)

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Sabrar
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:18 pm UTC

Diablo (@SDK)
Spoiler:
I parsed that differently, I understood "Assuming your redirection is successful" as "if there is nothing interfering from the outside". I mean your interpretation looks to me like it says "if you are able to redirect it then you will redirect it" which is an obvious answer but not something I would expect a mod to say. But I could be wrong here.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:00 pm UTC

Diablo:

Spoiler:
If everyone can send me night actions early and those with night chat agree to end night, I will start the following day earlier.


I'm just going to go ahead and assume nobody actually has night chat at this point and dimochka is just covering his bases. Otherwise, I clearly have no idea of what is going on in this game.

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freezeblade
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby freezeblade » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:00 pm UTC

Diablo
Spoiler:
Ok, with all this talking, it's making me worried that there will be some form of upset in the night actions, that will throw the whole game off-kilter.

I want to read them so bad!
Belial wrote:I am not even in the same country code as "the mood for this shit."

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Gopher of Pern
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Gopher of Pern » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:10 pm UTC

Diablo:
Spoiler:
Boo!
Look In My Face
Stare In My Soul
I Begin To Stupefy

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LaserGuy
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:44 pm UTC

Diablo:

Spoiler:
For the record, I am using the NK tonight and will be very surprised if I am alive in the morning.

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Madge
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Madge » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:23 am UTC

Diablo

Spoiler:
I don't know. If I got that answer, saying essentially that a standard strongman can be redirected, and based my strategy on it, and it turned out that my enemy was a non-standard strongman who COULD be redirected, I would feel cheated/misled. As a player I'd prefer a no comment in that case.

If the scum strongman can be redirected then it's a fine answer though.
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Sabrar
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:03 am UTC

Shameless self-promotion time: sign-ups for my next game are open, please join!

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LaserGuy
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:00 pm UTC

Can someone give me a quick overview of how a nightless or one night game works? Are there multiple lynches? A bazillion kill powers? What happens if there are multiple factions with competing wincons still alive at the end of the game?

[edit]@Sabrar, I'm misreading and your Dark Tower game is a multiple day game with no night phase aren't I?

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SirGabriel
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby SirGabriel » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:18 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Can someone give me a quick overview of how a nightless or one night game works? Are there multiple lynches? A bazillion kill powers? What happens if there are multiple factions with competing wincons still alive at the end of the game?

[edit]@Sabrar, I'm misreading and your Dark Tower game is a multiple day game with no night phase aren't I?

Nightless and One Night are two completely different things. One Night games have a single night phase followed by a single day phase. Nightless games are the same as regular mafia games except that they try to minimize the time needed to transition from one day phase to the next: all chat powers can chat during the day, and players must submit during the day any action they wish to use that night (generally allowing backup actions, for instance "cop LaserGuy, unless LaserGuy is lynched, in which case cop Sabrar").

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Sabrar
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:06 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:@Sabrar, I'm misreading and your Dark Tower game is a multiple day game with no night phase aren't I?
Correct, see SirGabriel's explanation how it works.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Gopher of Pern » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:42 am UTC

Is anyone interested in playing Crossfire over the next week, while we wait for Sabrar's game to start? It is essentially a one-night game variant, so I'd start it on Monday, and finish discussion on Friday, so it can be done in a week. It's for 5 to 10 players.

If I get some interest I'll put it in sign ups over the weekend.
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Sabrar
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:29 pm UTC

Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:13 am UTC

@Gopher of Pern: I'd play.

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Carlington
Posts: 1584
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:46 am UTC
Location: Sydney, Australia.

Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Carlington » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:33 am UTC

I've never played any one night games, but I would probably give it a go
Kewangji: Posdy zwei tosdy osdy oady. Bork bork bork, hoppity syphilis bork.

Eebster the Great: What specifically is moving faster than light in these examples?
doogly: Hands waving furiously.

Please use he/him/his pronouns when referring to me.

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jimbobmacdoodle
Posts: 149
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:40 pm UTC
Location: NP 811/The Present

Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:00 am UTC

I'd love to, but I've got family visiting, so probably won't get a chance to check-in on the thread. Sorry.
BlitzGirl the Primordial
matthewglen wrote:Cueball looks concerned.

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