The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

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SuicideJunkie
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby SuicideJunkie » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:56 pm UTC

Secret Santa 2018
Spoiler:
Well, I made a lot of mistakes every day. In hindsight, I probably would have done almost everything opposite to what I did.
Learning the hard way!

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby MasterOfAll » Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:18 pm UTC

Sandy Claws
Spoiler:
Ah, it turns out that SuicideJunkie is an apt name!

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:40 pm UTC

Secret Santa 2018 (SuicideJunkie may read):
Spoiler:
Strictly speaking, self-hammering like that is probably playing against your win condition, but it's actually worked out better for you. Because your faction was the first to be eliminated, you now have a team-mate in the form of Mark, who has joined your faction, and gained your night kill. Plus, you took down Sabrar with you! By the way, moody was never successfully cursed, so he wouldn't have died, even if his vote had counted.
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby moody7277 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:57 pm UTC

Secret Santa 2018

Spoiler:
I believe the reason for Sabrar's death lies in bessie's last post of the day. Specifically, he had 6 posts while Mark had 4. Also, I had apparently jumped the gun on submitting my list in light of this, so I had to re-send it. Here's what it ended up as:

Nice

bessie
Vicarin
MasterOfAll
Mark_Cangila

Naughty

LaserGuy

I expect one mistake.
The story of my life in xkcdmafia:

Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby SuicideJunkie » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:10 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Secret Santa 2018 (SuicideJunkie may read):
Spoiler:
Strictly speaking, self-hammering like that is probably playing against your win condition, but it's actually worked out better for you. Because your faction was the first to be eliminated, you now have a team-mate in the form of Mark, who has joined your faction, and gained your night kill. Plus, you took down Sabrar with you! By the way, moody was never successfully cursed, so he wouldn't have died, even if his vote had counted.

Secret Santa (mods may read)
Spoiler:
Huh, I was just thinking I'd try to take as many with me as possible before Sabrar (or Moody if the pseudo-vote counted; curses penalize you for intent rather than actual success sometimes) had a chance to unvote... since that's as close as I could get to the goal once surviving was no longer an option.
Maybe it is even for the best? If team SK appears to have been found, nobody will be looking for more of them. Does that mean I score imaginary internet points too, if Mark wins?


MasterOfAll wrote:Sandy Claws
Spoiler:
Ah, it turns out that SuicideJunkie is an apt name!

More Santa
Spoiler:
And a suspiciously suitable power for it too. :D
Last edited by SuicideJunkie on Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:29 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:25 pm UTC

Secret Santa 2018 @SuicideJunkie:
Spoiler:
You might well be right. Mark was effectively cleared of being Mafia for blocking the N1 kill, and moody's second shot isn't going to confirm anything one way or the other that wasn't already broadly believed, and could reinforce a Godfather suspicion. LaserGuy will be struggling to survive D4, so assuming the Mafia kill succeeds tonight, it'll be 2-0-1 come N4, and all Mark has to do is shoot successfully (which he can do by targeting the remaining protective ability), assuming he has the sense not to use his other ability.
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby SuicideJunkie » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:37 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Secret Santa 2018 @SuicideJunkie:
Spoiler:
All Mark has to do is shoot successfully (which he can do by targeting the remaining protective ability), assuming he has the sense not to use his other ability.

Secret Santa 2018 @ jimbob
Spoiler:
I'm a bit confused there. Do you mean for stealth reasons, a hidden conflict between the abilities that I didn't notice, or involving the other power and the common sense thing of not protecting the person you're stabbing?

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:46 pm UTC

SuicideJunkie wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Secret Santa 2018 @SuicideJunkie:
Spoiler:
All Mark has to do is shoot successfully (which he can do by targeting the remaining protective ability), assuming he has the sense not to use his other ability.

Secret Santa 2018 @ jimbob
Spoiler:
I'm a bit confused there. Do you mean for stealth reasons, a hidden conflict between the abilities that I didn't notice, or involving the other power and the common sense thing of not protecting the person you're stabbing?
Secret Santa 2018:
Spoiler:
No, you're right. I forgot about the ability swap.
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby SuicideJunkie » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:56 pm UTC

bessie wrote:Secret Santa 2018

Spoiler:
Nice one scum. Hammering to end the day's discussion early. Or was it to ensure Sabrar ended the day without the lowest post count and deprive him of his night action?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

:P

Secret Santa 2018
Spoiler:
None of the above, actually!


Madge wrote:Secret Santa

Spoiler:
geez that's what i get for missing one day!!! should have checked in so i could vote defensively. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

I LOVE HOW PEOPLE ARE SCUMREADING ME FOR POSTING TOO MUCH ON D1 I DON'T EVEN

Secret Santa
Spoiler:
Sorry, Madge. I even considered that you might have been organizing/leading the scum for a little while ... :oops:

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Vicarin » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:33 pm UTC

Secret Santa:

Spoiler:
Hmmm, that's consistent with mpolo's role so I guess he was just an Indie. Now I'm worried about why there was a double kill N2... If it turns out Sabrar was a cannoneer after randomly mentioning them that would be amazing.

Probably just going to withold, does seem pretty risky to mess around with the votes right now. Will mull over it for a bit

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:37 am UTC

Secret Santa
Spoiler:
I'm so glad I trusted bessie in the end and revealed everything to her. Normally it wouldn't have mattered because of the Lover mechanic but this way she has all the info and can call LaserGuy to account if he doesn't follow the plan because I'm dead.

Is Town really at LYLO after only a single mislynch, a successful save AND getting the SK D3??? WTF is this balance?

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
wam-the-man wrote:Also just had a thought, odds of a cult....
...are zero. See the rules about alignment changing roles.
So how does Underdog fit into this? It presents the same issues as any other alignment-change will give you in the game.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:15 am UTC

Secret Santa 2018:
Spoiler:
Underdog is different to cult, because the Underdog knows about the upcoming changes to their alignment. I'd be hesitant to even call it an alignment change, since they don't have an alignment as such up front. Rather, it's more like an indie who is trying to keep the balance between multiple different factions.

The Underdog is also our attempt at balancing things out between the different factions. SK had no protection, so an unfortunate N1 kill would have made it too hard for them, Mafia only had 2 members, which is weak for a 12 player game, but also as previously discussed in Gojoe, 3 mafia members is a little too strong at 12 players, and 2 night kills meant that a bad D1 could have resulted in the game being at 6-2-1 by D2, so it also had the potential to help out town.
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:26 am UTC

Secret Santa
Spoiler:
It's not just about knowing whether your own alignment will change. It's how that change will affect other players (and to a lesser extent Cop-results). Say for example that Mafia is the first faction to be eliminated, after which we find and lynch SK. Now game is not over so we are looking for the third member of the Mafia-team but we already decided that Mark can't be it because of D1 and D2 voting. It will be impossible for Town to find him because we are assuming no alignment change in the game whatsoever. That is problematic.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby SuicideJunkie » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:14 pm UTC

Secret Santa
Spoiler:
I suppose one way of looking at it is that Mark wasn't told his alignment and had to play defensively, but now it has been revealed to him.

Another perspective is that he started with three (two known, one suspected, outside chance of others) mutually incompatible win conditions to choose from based on how the play goes, and has now been locked into only one viable choice.

The effect on cop results is an interesting point. I'd suggest that results be openly random until the underdog knows their alignment, or possibly match whichever faction is doing worst based on some sort of fixed scoring formula decided before the game.
Or just give an explicit GF/Miller status and call it a day?

...

Actually, where was the fixed alignment mentioned? I was just looking at the first post, and I'm not seeing it.
Last edited by SuicideJunkie on Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:27 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:20 pm UTC

Secret Santa
Spoiler:
Again, it's not that Mark didn't know his alignment, it's that happenings in previous days (results, roleblocks, votes, whatever) are no longer valid to determine his alignment on a subsequent day for other players. This is the main issue with all alignment-changing roles (mainly cult) or when players are not aware that they are on the same scum-team (WoT2 and WoT3).

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby SuicideJunkie » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:07 pm UTC

Secret Santa
Spoiler:
I'm not seeing how that invalidates the previous happenings? Those previous results should all be consistent with him being an underdog. Mark would have known all along roughly what was going to happen, and been working towards making it happen in an ideal form (balancing the teams instead of pushing hard in one direction).
I suppose being town-leaning, but intentionally counterproductive is an indication of SKism or underdoggitude.

If a cult involves a sudden 180 turn partway through the game, it sounds to me like the underdog lives at 90 degrees from the start.
On further consideration, underdog kind of is an SK, but nerfed since they don't have full power until a faction is eliminated, and they might get stuck with a garbage faction power like town's null ability... but they still have to kill off everybody else in the whole game AND (normally have to) survive themselves.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:23 pm UTC

Secret Santa
Spoiler:
I'll try to explain differently. If we assume that no alignment-change is in the game (as suggested by the limits on the role-submission) then it would logically follow that win-conditions don't change either. Therefore everyone is working towards their own win-con from the start of D1 and we can rely on early results to hold up later on as well. However with Underdog this is not the case because their win-con is not known beforehand so we are unable to play the game as it was originally intended.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby SuicideJunkie » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:05 pm UTC

Spoiler:
It seems to me that underdog has a reasonable idea of their win conditions from the start:

Town being eliminated first is a lose condition, since solo town can't lynch anyone.
Mafia being eliminated first means SK win conditions; There are no other mafia, and you need to eliminate all other players (the town, SK, others).
SK being eliminated first means directly SK win conditions for obvious reasons.
Cult is being discounted, but would be a bit like an overpowered SK if you think of it as trading a kill for a recruit and the huge benefits that come with that.
A town aligned independent would be the biggest exception if they count as their own faction rather than a townie. Hard to predict, but would likely induce a playstyle change if they existed in this game.

Overall, acting like a serial killer seems like the best strategy for underdog unless you find a juicy small target with an easy or already-achieved win condition to snipe.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:32 pm UTC

Secret Santa
Spoiler:
SuicideJunkie wrote:Town being eliminated first is a lose condition, since solo town can't lynch anyone.
This is incorrect, look at the description of the role: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/role/?mafiarole=Underdog
Underdog can join Town (when Mafia would have numbers otherwise). Underdog truly can join anyone (except fringe cases like Jester).

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby SuicideJunkie » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:57 pm UTC

Secret Santa
Spoiler:
That link is blocked from here; I'll have to look later.
If it is a matter of joining town just as they would lose the majority instead of when the faction is entirely gone, that's a pretty bad situation too.
In order to make it a tenable situation, surely underdog would have had to play to keep the mafia in check as town is ground down (to result in the fewest number of required correct lynches in a row to win), which is consistent with the other options in acting like SK from the start.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Vicarin » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:30 pm UTC

Secret Santa:

Spoiler:
Oh my that's a big spoiler conversation. Hopefully it's frustrated GFscum!Sabrar, but it probably isn't.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby MasterOfAll » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:55 am UTC

Sandy Claws:
Spoiler:
I don't actually have anything to say right now; I just wanted to get in on the flurry of posts here.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:20 am UTC

Secret Santa (@jimbob)
Spoiler:
Why was wam's redirection on me not stopped by bessie's rolestopper? Why was MOA's message blocked instead?

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:40 am UTC

Secret Santa 2018 (@Sabrar):
Spoiler:
Going off memory here, because I don't have quick access to my notes, but IIRC, there were two redirections involved, which actually meant bessie targeted herself, and your message got redirected to her as well. bessie's protection couldn't then prevent that redirection to herself (temporal paradox - if it had, she wouldn't have self-targeted and therefore would have been targeted by the redirection after all etc), so the protection prevented the next most dangerous thing to hit her, i.e. the message.
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:58 pm UTC

Secret Santa
Spoiler:
Did bessie get redirected independently from wam's action as well? Because as I read wam's ability it would have only affected my target. Also if bessie ended up targeting herself then why was my message blocked and not hers? And how did bessie receive the message intended for me? I think that is a different interpretation of wam's ability than I figured.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby somitomi » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:51 pm UTC

Secret Santa
Spoiler:
We're halfway into the game and out of the blue I get an idea for an amusing role. I should probably PM myself, otherwise I'll forget it by the time I could use it.
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—◯‐◯ FG Discord

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby bessie » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:09 pm UTC

Secret Santa 2018

Spoiler:
Hahahahaha good one scum I lol'd.

Not really. If you do not kill me tonight I am totally going to FIND YOU and LYNCH YOU tomorrow.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby SuicideJunkie » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:03 pm UTC

Secret Santa
Spoiler:
That sounds like Bessie got a night message of dubious integrity. I suppose at this point MoA is all but confirmed as the real sender, unless there's been another power swap.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby MasterOfAll » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:22 pm UTC

Sandy Claws
Spoiler:
C'mon, D4 start already! I'm very curious to find out who is still alive after 2 deaths on D3 and potentially another 2 deaths on N3.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:37 pm UTC

Secret Santa (@jimbob)
Spoiler:
@jimbob: who redirected bessie? Did you interpret wam's ability as busdriver? Because it doesn't work that way from the wording you provided. I should not have been cursed by SJ on either night due to bessie's protection...

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:48 pm UTC

Secret Santa 2018:
Spoiler:
Relevant N1 action submissions:

1) bessie targeted Sabrar.
2) wam targeted bessie.
3) MoA targeted multiple people including Sabrar and bessie.
4) Sabrar targeted bessie.
5) SuicideJunkie targeted Sabrar.
6) mpolo targeted Sabrar and MoA.

Resolution:
1) wam's redirect has priority, so he redirected her to the mirror of that target, i.e. from you to herself.
2) mpolo's XOR cop also has a hidden effect of switching the targets of the people it targets, so Sabrar, you targeted a random selection from MoA's list of targets, which turned out to be yourself, and the message MoA was supposed to send to you instead went to your target, i.e. bessie.
3) wam's redirection couldn't be blocked by bessie's self-protection, because it would cause a temporal paradox as noted earlier, so it blocks the next most harmful thing to target her. Since she was supposed to receive two messages, I selected one at random to discard (turned out to be the one addressed to you).
4) You were not being protected by bessie due to the redirect in 1), so you got cursed by SuicideJunkie. You being redirected by mpolo is why you got the vest.

I hope that makes sense.
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Vicarin » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:24 pm UTC

Secret Santa:

Spoiler:
Well, at least my crusade against LaserGuy was correct. What a weird role for Mark though. His behaviour was sufficiently weird that I was moving toward being ok with lynching him anyway, so I guess we still have a good shot. Just have to lynch correctly both nights, or hope that both scum shoot each other.

Twas a nice way of changing the submitted role so that it doesn't immediately out the person as anti town if it gets swapped, but it would still be pretty suspicious...

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Vicarin » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:40 pm UTC

Secret Santa:

Spoiler:
Yeah, assuming that people aren't too worried about crazy redirects, Moody's results immediately collapse into Mark and LaserGuy as scum, unless people start worrying about a single godfather as scum remaining. Of course, better to play as if there's 2 remaining right now, so it comes down to moody vs LaserGuy...

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:04 am UTC

Secret Santa 2018:
Spoiler:
I'm still not convinced it was wrong to include moody's ability in the game, but I do think I should have included a Godfather. Although town seems quite strong, many abilities were pretty useless or very weak at least (plytho's chat ability, MoA's original ventriloquist and message one, Madge's passive redirect ability and BoomFrog's coal ability). Most of the rest had a potential for causing problems to town (mpolo's XOR causing redirection, bessie potentially blocking beneficial powers, Mark's original one potentially blocking town powers or denying a townie a vote/giving scum a double vote, Sabrar's inventions risking back firing). Even moody's ability had the potential to not prove useful on the first result, depending on who he selected where. I just think the scum kills were pretty poorly targeted or unlucky as was the case N1. LaserGuy seems pretty doomed, but Mark still stands a small chance.
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:44 am UTC

Secret Santa
Spoiler:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I hope that makes sense.
Yes, thank you. I just wasn't aware that the Cop also redirected.
So what happened N2? Mark used it (presumably) on MoA and bessie so their targeting also got messed up. Did the message intended for me get blocked again by bessie's protection? Or was Mark just lying?

Also, did the curse-role and the SK get paired randomly?

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:45 am UTC

Secret Santa 2018:
Spoiler:
N2, bessie's target of you was swapped with one of MoA's at random, which turned out to be you again, so effectively there was no redirection. The message by MoA to you then got blocked by that protection again.

The curse, and one (or maybe 2) other abilities (I think plytho's) got pre-assigned an alignment after we decided the number of each alignment. Everything else was then randomly assigned, and then every player randomly assigned a role from there.
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Vicarin » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:29 am UTC

Secret Santa @mods

Spoiler:
Oh yeah, can we get a link to scum chat seeing as there won't be much talking going on in it? Want to see LaserGuy's thoughts.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Vicarin » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:35 am UTC

Secret Santa:

Spoiler:
Nooooooo bessie trust the cops! Trust your scummy feeling of Mark! Trust my evidence against LaserGuy! Trust in there being hidden mechanics messing up the results! Don't do this!

I mean, town could still win by having Mark and LaserGuy shoot each other but I don't see that happening.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:10 am UTC

Secret Santa
Spoiler:
And that ladies and gentlemen is the reason why you shouldn't include hidden mechanics to your submitted role...

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:48 am UTC

Secret Santa 2018:
Spoiler:
Scum gave permission for their chat to be published: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/fj9KPSHsh2LGL
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